Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
It is a nice idea, and back in the early days of BW1 I tried a similar set. The surprise factor is great, but apart from that it doesn't have a lot going for it. If however you want to use DD just for the speed boost it is slightly more viable, although Latios already suffers a bit from 4MSS so putting a potentially gimmicky move on a set might not be all that effective. If you were having trouble with a specific Scarfer then maybe you could try it out, but just in general I think Mence or probably still the best Dragon to run a mixed set.
@Alkinesthetase
Haha if Latios got Agility we would be in for a treat, and if it got Quiver Dance... Hello Ubers :d
Uhhmm.. I really don't want to be the bad guy (again), but this looks pretty much like the Specs Set in the current analysis thread, but with a minor difference in its slashes. Having a second Water-type STAB isn't exactly as helpful as an additional coverage move, not to mention this thing is meant to spam Hydro Pump anyways.
Having both Surf and Hydro Pump on choiced sets is a better idea imo.Having both power and reliability is more important than coverage on Keldeo,particularly the specs one.Because you can just use specs Hydro pump to 2HKO things like Amoongus and Dragonite(through mulitiscale).So I use Hydro pump,Surf,Secret Sword and HP Ghost.
True, but only in the rain. Outside of the rain, the only way to 2hitKO amoonguss is through icy wind. And even though it's weak, setup sweepers can't exactly laugh it off, since it lowers speed. To be honest, i guess it's good if you don't want to risk missing, but again, that assumes weather control.
Also, i get really tired of people posting "creative" sets that are already on-site or have very slight tweaks. Can we stop this already?
The main benefit of using Toxicroak is abusing Dry Skin in rain. Uninvested base 106 Attack isn't going to do much for you in terms of damage output, and base 85 Speed is quite underwhelming in OU, so not exactly what you're doing with EVs here. 83/65/65 defenses are okay at best and without that Dry Skin healing you you're going to be pretty miserable. And the main point of this set is to spread poison? You're much better off just going for Toxic Spikes.
Also, if you're looking for bulk from your Dragon Dancer, I don't see how Latios really does that much for you. When you consider Mence's significantly higher attack, that little bit of extra bulk doesn't help much. Mence also has Intimidate at it's disposal, and both that and Moxie serve him better in the role of DD sweeper. It could be argued that Latios's higher SpAtk benefit him, but Mence's SpAtk is nothing to be scoffed at, gets the job done, and the physical attack difference outweighs Latios's SpAtk advantage. Dragonite outclasses Latios by far in terms of a Bulky DD set. The only real advantage DD Latios brings to the table here is surprise factor, but when relying on attacks coming off a base 90 Attack stat, it's not that hard to wall or otherwise dispose of.
Also speed, Genesect destroys DD Dragonite and Latios can actually take priorities unlike salamence. I do agree that Latios has it's own weakess, but there's a surprise factor and Latios has some advantages.
Latios @ Life Orb
EVs: 88 Atk/ 216 Sp Atk / 244 Spe / 4 HP
Naive
- Draco Meteor
- Dragon Dance
- Earthquake/ Outrage
- Hidden Power Fire
Just a standard LO Latios, but combined with a little dragon dance. Since 95% of the time, Choice Latios uses Draco Meteor, there's no point to include other moves so why not try a dragon dancing set. If Genesect wants to switch in, fuck it up with dragon dance HP fire. If Heatran or Rachi wants to play, nail it with earthquake. Outrage greatly injuries Gastrodon.
Oh, Hello special wall! Nice to meet you, i'm Swords Dance Keldeo, I don't believe we're spoke before? Sd Keldeo has nuts surprise value, can turn a battle around as your foe switches into something that can't take a shot from Sd Keldeo, letting you get a free move. Pair with rain, switch into a dark type attack, win, it's that simple.
i'm pretty sure the only thing you catch by surprise with that set is pink blobs, who would never switch in on keldeo anyway because of the threat of secret sword. tentacruel still walls your ass hard (harder, if anything, because 72 base atk is a lot less than 129 base satk), latias still walls your ass hard, amoonguss still walls your ass hard. the best you can do against any of them is dent them with a cc or rain backed waterfall as they come in (does less than 50% to all of them, and that's AFTER a swords dance) and then eat a painful attack at -1 sdef or get burned by scald. i really don't see where the surprise value kicks in here; you don't beat any of your standard counters by swords dancing instead of calm minding - in fact, if anything, those standard counters become even better at countering you than before - and you also happen to do much less damage against basically everything else in the game. your coverage also takes a drastic hit because you can no longer run hidden power (weak as shit when not invested), and keldeo's movepool is astoundingly small, meaning that mons you can normally go toe to toe with (jellicent via hp ghost, latias via hp ghost, amoong via icy wind, etc) will now utterly destroy you.
Oh, Hello special wall! Nice to meet you, i'm Swords Dance Keldeo, I don't believe we're spoke before? Sd Keldeo has nuts surprise value, can turn a battle around as your foe switches into something that can't take a shot from Sd Keldeo, letting you get a free move. Pair with rain, switch into a dark type attack, win, it's that simple.
Have to agree with Alkinesthetase, the surprise value is definitely there, no one is ever going to expect a physical Keldeo, and theres a reason for that. Keldeo has a very nice and usable special attack, and with Secret Sword it can still hit on the physical side of the spectrum, bar Ghosts of course. Alkinesthetase also showed exactly how many common mons will wall the hell out of you, so to me this set is actually doing your opponent a favor as it is basically making the match 5-6 from the start. Unless of course they are running something equally as odd.
Sorry if that seemed harsh, I really do love the creativity and thinking outside the box. But this set just wouldn't work, it'd be like running a specially offensive Terrakion. It would just be bad :d
I don't know I don't think the surprise value is really vs defensive teams. Follow my logic here, unusually for an offensive team, they most of the time don't have anything to take a hydropump, so they may just sack a pokemon planing on bringing is oh lets say Alakazam to scare it out with psyshock, idk, something like that. Instead there general plan falls to pieces when lo and behold the Keldeo is not specs or calm mind, but swords dance! Soon their check is 1HKOed by +2 aqua jet in the rain and they are on there way to a hilarious Keldeo sweep.
Idk, if I was playing offensive and didn't have a check that could take +2 aqua jet in the rain, id be scared shitless.
yeah but keldeo's +2 aqua jet in the rain is shit ass weak coming off of base 72 atk. most teams will have something that can take it. let's put this in perspective: after stealth rock, in the rain, at +2, carrying a freaking life orb, your 252 atk aqua jet doesn't even OHKO 252 HP gliscor. when your heavily invested water attacks, in RAIN of all things, at freaking +2 with LO, fail to ohko gliscor, you know something is wrong. you do less than 80% to genesect. you can't KO thundurus-T without stealth rock, and all these examples are water neutral or worse - no sane team in OU today goes without a water resist, and trust me, they will be laughing at your aqua jet. list goes on, calculate it here if you want to see.
sure you have stab close combat, but off of 72 base attack, you simply are not going to be blowing away checks. cb azumarill or sd feraligatr (IT'S GATR TIME) could be doing the same thing with their aqua jets but they have more power. if these mons can set up they will do just as much damage to a hyper offense team as keldeo will if not more, and against pretty much any team that's not HO, there will be a counter to all three of them in there somewhere. it's just that sd gatr will actually put pressure on defensive teams where as sd keldeo will be setup bait for my latias to sweep your team. 72 base atk is not very hard to wall (it's about as much attack as tyranitar has speed >_> seeing as keldeo can't exactly run adamant or it gets outsped and checked even more easily). a surprise gimmick needs to reliably punch a hole that it couldn't punch before to be worth considering at all... i don't see it happening with keldeo
Yeah I suppose thats pretty fair, as in the rain with the +2 and Mystic Water, Aqua Jet is going to be hurting a lot of things. Its hard to really do calcs to show exactly what it would take to prevent that, but I suppose doing calcs against some of the most common OU mons (top 15) could work.
A few instances;
Keldeo v Breloom (4 HP/0 DEF/Jolly): Aqua Jet: 95-112 (36.25 - 42.74%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Keldeo v Jirachi (252 HP/0 DEF/Careful): Aqua Jet: 160-189 (39.6 - 46.78%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Keldeo v Starmie (4 HP/0 DEF/Timid): Aqua Jet: 91-108 (34.86 - 41.37%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Keldeo v Scizor (248HP/0 DEF/Adamant): Aqua Jet: 160-189 (46.64 - 55.1%) -- 66.02% chance to 2HKO
Keldeo v Rotom-W (4 HP/0 DEF/Timid): Aqua Jet: 75-89 (30.99 - 36.77%) -- 73.78% chance to 3HKO
Keldeo v Genesect (0 HP/0 DEF/Hasty): Aqua Jet: 186-219 (65.72 - 77.38%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Now those are just some of the most common mons in OU at the moment, all of them can quite comfortably take a +2 Aqua Jet and then KO in their own way. I didn't include Ferrothorn because that is obviously going to deal with it rather easily. So if your team isn't packing one of these guys, or something that resists water, you may be in trouble. But really odds are you'll be running something that can take the hit.
To be fair, it outspeeds a lot of that, and so it can afford to use CC/Waterfall, but can we get real? You can still pack latios to deal with it;it'll get dented by a plus 2 aqua jet, but then keldeo will die horribly. The problem with keldeo is that it has secret sword, which is basically already a physical move, and plus one Spatk for him is a lot like plus 2 atk. So it's not like people don't expect you to have a physical move. Also jellicent demolishes you.
Even in the fast checks area, i'm not sure what beat him before that fails to now. It's scarfed landorus and terrakion basically- genesect switches in w/out a spatk boost against a CM, rotom-w the same, so on.
Oh yeah, and as for scarfwynaut, what about feraligatr? Or even samurott-celebi/latis can't switch in for free with megahorn, and still puts a nice hole in rotom-w.
Mostly basic Breloom set, but with a rarely/never used move in Rock Tomb.
After the Technician boost, you are getting nearly the same power out of Rock Tomb as you would out of Stone Edge, same accuracy, and it can be very benificial to get a dropped stat on your opponents speed. The speed drop does happen 100% of the time (as long as it hits).
Could be very good versus faster switch ins that might think they can outspeed Breloom, and hits Dragons hard since niether of Breloom's STAB attacks do anything worth mentioning to most Dragons.
Quick damage calcs.....
LO Tech. Breloom Rock Tomb, Versus 4/0/0 Def Latias: Damage: 140 - 166 of 302 HP 46% - 54% (2HKO after Stealth Rock, and will outspeed a non-scarfed variant after the switch.)
Same, versus Salamence: Damage: 280 - 332 of 332 HP 84% - 100% (OHKO after Stealth Rock)
Same, versus Bulky Dragonite (with Multiscale in tact): Damage: 122 - 144 of 386 HP 31% - 37%
Same, versus Bulky Dragonite (Multiscale broken) Damage: 244 - 288 of 386 HP 63% - 74% (Outspeeds, and 2HKOs with no Multiscale, but beware of Choice Band ExtremeSpeed)
Same, versus Gengar: Damage: 176 - 209 of 262 HP 67% - 79% (Outspeeds and 2HKOs) (Not a Daragon, but usually bothersome for Breloom)
I've got a new favorite toy and I'm in good enough mood to share. Sorry for the incoming wall of text.
Slaking (M) @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Truant
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
Jolly Nature
- Double-Edge
- Earthquake / Low Kick
- Fire Punch
- Roar
"Kata, what the hell?" Base 160 Attack with a 120 Power STAB Attack that doesn't lock the user into it. "Yeah, so wha--?" Base 100 Speed. "That's not all that gre--." Base 150 HP (441 HP uninvested) and Base 100 Defense. I'm not saying it's this amazing Pokemon but after a lot of testing, I can say with confidence that Slaking is nowhere near as bad as he's commonly made out to be.
I'll address the elephant in the room first: Truant. The entire reason I wanted to try this was because I noticed most Choice Scarf Pokemon in this metagame hit once and are forced out. I decided if that is truly the case, then why not abuse Slaking's gargantuan Attack stat to get the most bang for my buck?
So, yes, I'm using Guerrilla Warfare tactics with a gorilla.
For those of you unfamiliar with the Uber tier, where Pokemon with Slaking's raw power exist, this is what a Base 160 Attack stat looks like without any boosts be it items or even nature:
252 Atk Jolly Slaking Double-Edge vs 0 HP/0 Def Volcarona: 104.5% - 123.47% [100% chance to OHKO]
252 Atk Jolly Slaking Double-Edge vs 4 HP/0 Def Tornadus-T: 92% - 108.33% [50% chance to OHKO / 100% chance to OHKO (After Hazards)]
252 Atk Jolly Slaking Double-Edge vs 4 HP/0 Def Politoed: 90.37% - 106.52% [43.75% chance to OHKO / 100% chance to OHKO (After Hazards)]
252 Atk Jolly Slaking Double-Edge vs 0 HP/0 Def Rotom-W: 89.63% - 105.81% [37.5% chance to OHKO / 100% chance to OHKO (After Hazards)]
252 Atk Jolly Slaking Double-Edge vs 0 HP/0 Def Salamence: 83.38% - 98.19% [100% chance to OHKO (After Hazards)]
252 Atk Jolly Slaking Double-Edge vs 54 HP/0 Def Dragonite: 70.83% - 83.93% [68.75% chance to OHKO (After Hazards)]
252 Atk Jolly Slaking Double-Edge vs 0 HP/0 Def Genesect: 42.05% - 49.82%
252 Atk Jolly Slaking Double-Edge vs 4 HP/0 Def Terrakion: 38.58% - 45.37%
252 Atk Jolly Slaking Double-Edge vs 4 HP/0 Def Heatran: 33.64% - 39.81%
252 Atk Jolly Slaking Double-Edge vs 248 HP/0 Def Scizor: 33.24% - 39.36%
252 Atk Jolly Slaking Double-Edge vs 180 HP/0 Def Tyranitar: 27.2% - 32.12%
So as impressive as those calcs are, it gets even better as, due to his ironic Base 100 Speed, Slaking at the very least will Speed-tie with any Base 100- Speed Pokemon at +1 and it's massive Base 150 HP stat and solid Defense let it switch in on most set-up-sweepers as they boost without much fear of them predicting it.
252 Atk Adamant Dragonite Outrage vs 4 HP/0 Def Slaking: 49.77% - 59.05%
No problem even if it attacks on the switch. The good new doesn't even stop there. His HP stat substantially reduces the recoil from Double Edge diminishing the option's biggest drawback.
So that's pretty much the main premise of Slaking, Guerrilla Warfare. As for his move set:
Double Edge - An absolute must for Slaking in OU. He can get away with Return in lower tiers, but he needs the power here. Earthquake - Hits Steel-types an can put a lot of pressure on Sun teams. Low Kick - Tyranitar is extremely common so I've tried Low Kick and it is a nice alternative if you have issues with Tyranitar otherwise it's inferior to EQ. Fire Punch - Covers anything DEdge or EQ doesn't hit while annihilating Genesect. Don't get cocky around Ferrothorn though as they often carry Protect and force Slaking to burn his active turn. Roar - Some players know that they can take a Double Edge and set up Slaking. Roar keeps that from happening by turning Truant into a small advantage. Conkeldurr is a prime example. It can take the DEdge, use that that turn to Bulk Up, then Drain Punch the next. Other options - Shadow Claw can be used over Roar to better damage Ghosts. (Night Slash is illegal with DEdge) Hammer Arm is an alternative to EQ/Low Kick but its imperfect accuracy means you risk wasting your active turn. Ice Punch to better hit Dragonite and Gliscor as another option over Roar.
Fitting Slaking on a team is a bit tough. He's not out-classed because of his raw power and not relying on a 2-3 turn attack, he just needs a decent amount of support to function; two things he specifically need and a few optional things:
A safety net - Being able to only switch out or do nothing the 2nd turn is an open invitation for set-up. Slaking needs a Pokemon that can reliably deal with this issue. I personally use Hippowdon with Whirlwind but most Phazers will do the job. Even Quagsire could pull it off. Just remember that Slaking locked into DEdge can stay in on Dragonite and KO it after it sets up; don't be bullied out against obvious set-up just because of Truant. Hazards - A bit obvious from the damage calcs, but Slaking loves Stealth Rock. Always find a place for it. VoltTurn/Baton Pass - Slaking loves free switches and while it's not necessary, it really helps him shine. And if you can Baton Pass him a Sub, that's even better. Magne(zone/ton) - Slaking's no fan of Steel-types so removing them is a top priority. The Mags definitely help out, but aren't entirely needed.
I think that should cover everything. If you have questions, I'll definitely answer them.
And for laughs:
252 Atk Adamant Choice Band Slaking Double-Edge vs 252 HP/252 Def Bold Mew: 67.08% - 79.46%
252 Atk Adamant Choice Band Slaking Double-Edge vs 180 HP/0 Def Tyranitar: 45.08% - 52.85%
252 Atk Adamant Choice Band Slaking Double-Edge vs 252 HP/4 Def Ferrothorn: 42.05% - 49.72%
Choice Band's not bad either. It just can't do anything about faster Pokemon which is kind of a big deal since he can be KOed before he gets to attack in the first place.
@Joel - I ran into that set recently, I think it may have been Choiced though as it was running Low Sweep over Spore. Speed-lowering is surprisingly effective. Do you think the shaky accuracy is worth it? That's the same thing that keeps me away from Stone Edge on Breloom and without Low Sweep or Swords Dance, Breloom's average damage output aside from Bullet Seed seems like it would hurt it.
Mostly basic Breloom set, but with a rarely/never used move in Rock Tomb.
After the Technician boost, you are getting nearly the same power out of Rock Tomb as you would out of Stone Edge, same accuracy, and it can be very benificial to get a dropped stat on your opponents speed. The speed drop does happen 100% of the time (as long as it hits).
Could be very good versus faster switch ins that might think they can outspeed Breloom, and hits Dragons hard since niether of Breloom's STAB attacks do anything worth mentioning to most Dragons.
Quick damage calcs.....
LO Tech. Breloom Rock Tomb, Versus 4/0/0 Def Latias: Damage: 140 - 166 of 302 HP 46% - 54% (2HKO after Stealth Rock, and will outspeed a non-scarfed variant after the switch.)
Same, versus Salamence: Damage: 280 - 332 of 332 HP 84% - 100% (OHKO after Stealth Rock)
Same, versus Bulky Dragonite (with Multiscale in tact): Damage: 122 - 144 of 386 HP 31% - 37%
Same, versus Bulky Dragonite (Multiscale broken) Damage: 244 - 288 of 386 HP 63% - 74% (Outspeeds, and 2HKOs with no Multiscale, but beware of Choice Band ExtremeSpeed)
Same, versus Gengar: Damage: 176 - 209 of 262 HP 67% - 79% (Outspeeds and 2HKOs) (Not a Daragon, but usually bothersome for Breloom)
Not to be rude, but this was already mentioned in DW ou. And they rejected it. Although, it was because stone edge would at least let you take down scarf chandie on the switch, rock tomb wouldn't.
Not to be rude, but this was already mentioned in DW ou. And they rejected it. Although, it was because stone edge would at least let you take down scarf chandie on the switch, rock tomb wouldn't.
I actually gave it a mention in the newest Breloom Analysis currently in QC, as being written by Seven Deadly Sins. The powers that be here at Smogon outside of DW OU are seemingly giving it a really good responce, so far, since Chandlure is not yet a factor.
This ain't DW OU I'm mentioning this for, so Chandlure isn't a valid arguement here. And of course you need to battle smart, and test what Pokes are holding a Choice Scarf before relying on this, but most smart battlers can strongly suspect what Pokes are potentially holding a Scarf as soon as the Team Preview is shown on screen.
@ Katakiri: I think to answer your question, this would simply be the time told tale of accuracy over power. It all depends on what you would rather bank on during a battle. I am willing to risk the lowered accuracy over better neutral coverage. Yes, it does kick me in the ass sometimes, but more often than not, it succeeds, and greatly helps my team.
Spore one Poke to sleep, then EXPECT a switch, due to sleep clause, and the opponent switching in a resist, just to get it's speed lowered. If it isn't Scarfed, it's probably screwed. I already posted some important KO's Breloom gets from top OU threats that would normally give Breloom troubles, yet with Rock Tomb, problems are solved.
I know chandelure's not a valid argument here;just saying they didn't like it in DW ou. And mentioning chandie as an ameliorating factor, since it's not here.
And it's more like speed drop vs accuracy, the only viable replacement that isn't hidden power is rock slide, or maybe thunderpunch.
I know chandelure's not a valid argument here;just saying they didn't like it in DW ou. And mentioning chandie as an ameliorating factor, since it's not here.
And it's more like speed drop vs accuracy, the only viable replacement that isn't hidden power is rock slide, or maybe thunderpunch.
I can see why T-Punch might be viable over Rock Tomb in the long run, but ONLY if your team is weak (for whatever reas) to only Gyarados. Outside of that one Pokemon, I still think Rock Tomb, with it's speed stat drop that can supply a 2HKO on some of Breloom's most bothersome rivals, is still the superior option.
And ONLY if you are facing a bulky Intimidate ability Gyarados that is running Bounce do you loose (after the Rock Tomb speed drop)
I have solidly proven my own viable statistics that make my suggestion at least plausable. Can you? I need to see speed calculations, and damage calculations (combined after the speed drop that allows for 2HKO's) that have to do with todays OU Metagame that would let me believe KO's that they are actually threatening to Berloom itself that it would gain with either Thunder Punch, or Rock Slide, and if Breloom didn't get them, would actually hurt it's team, as a whole.
Lol, i do love this aggression. I was merely stating that, since the only other options to replace rock tomb are as strong or inaccurate as it, it's not actually a battle of power VS. accuracy.
Lol, i do love this aggression. I was merely stating that, since the only other options to replace rock tomb are as strong or inaccurate as it, it's not actually a battle of power VS. accuracy.
There's no aggression at all. You're not making a clear, solid point. He's just asking you to better defend what you're arguing (rather politely). I also am interested to hear what you have to say, because I don't quite understand your point either.
There's no aggression at all. You're not making a clear, solid point. He's just asking you to better defend what you're arguing (rather politely). I also am interested to hear what you have to say, because I don't quite understand your point either.
I'm not arguing, i'm... providing information. I'm saying "A large group of knowledgeable people rejected this idea, but they had something else that we here don't have, so it might just have been that." As for the other thing, he was saying all "oh rock tomb is power vs. accuracy". But, look at its replacements. If you assume that rock tomb is mostly meant to hit flying-types, which i'm pretty sure it is (Yes, and the speed-lowering thing, but that's not relevant to my point), then the viable replacements are thunderpunch, rock slide, and stone edge. Stone edge is as inaccurate, and thunderpunch/rock slide is just as powerful.
Then he's like oh gimme some calcs, no reason to run t-punch over rock tomb, which i never said there was. Not to mention, it's got that whole "Doesn't miss 1/5th of the time", which is arguably a reason in and of itself.
