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Discussion in 'BW OU' started by sax king, Jan 17, 2011.
Yeah, maybe HP Ice>Grass knot. Im weird though.
You know, most Water mons have Ice Beam, including Empoleon. Moreover, this one is not really creative because it is already in the Smogon analysis. First set.
Gengar @ Focus Sash
Nature: Timid (-Atk. +Spd.)
EVs: 4 HP/ 252 SpA/ 252 Spd.
This is a really cool set that beats the two kinds of Pokemon that are most likely to give Gengar trouble in the OU metagame- (1) those who are faster and that can OHKO Gengar, and (2) Those who are slower and can 2HKO Gengar while avoiding being 2HKO'd themselves. Counter+Focus Sash allows you to live the hit and KO back when hit on your extremely weak Physical Defense side, while Destiny Bond can take down problematic Pokemon for your team that the opponent has in thinking that you're sacking Gengar. Especially fun is when you use Counter and get a kill while going down to your sash, and then net another kill if something slower and bulkier comes in to finish you off. Definitely worth a look if pokemon that give Gengar a lot of trouble (Tentacruel, Jirachi, Powerful Scarfers) give your whole team in general trouble. Sub is great but Focus Blast gives you much better coverage and sub has poor synergy with both Destiny Bond and Focus Sash+Counter. Spin and Weather support are needed to keep Rocks and Hail/Sandstorm away to keep your sash intact.
That set (but with thunderbolt over focus blast) have been used in the battle tower since 2007 or 2008, so it's not very creative.
Oh well. I've never played there, so I've never seen this set before and didn't get it from there. Thanks for letting me know, though. I figured it's near impossible anyway at this point to think of something that's new and great on a Gen. 1 pokemon that nobody's thought of before.
I'm pretty sure many people have seen this / know about it already, but I couldn't find it in any of the posts here so I figured I'd post it!
TORNADUS-THERIAN (M) @ Choice Specs / Life Orb
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
IVs: 30 Atk / 30 Def
Nature: Timid (+Spd, -Atk)
Moveset: Hurricane | Sleep Talk | U-turn | Hidden Power [Ice]
I originally started to use this when Amoonguss and Breloom troubled my team. It manages to get tons upon tons of surprise kills and functions as the best sleep fodder I know. Since most sleep-inducing Pokemon are Grass types, there's a 2/3 chance that they're going to get hit by SE damage (100% if it's mono-grass). I prefer Specs because LO recoil + Stealth rock seriously hinder its pivot capabilities and survivability especially against a +2 Breloom that's brave enough to Mach Punch. Specs HP Ice also has the ability to OHKO 252 HP Breloom:
252 SpAtk Life Orb Tornadus-T Hidden Power Ice vs 252 HP/0 SpDef Breloom: 82.72% - 97.53% (2 hits to KO)
252 SpAtk Choice Specs Tornadus-T Hidden Power Ice vs 252 HP/0 SpDef Breloom: 95.06% - 112.35% (68.75% chance to OHKO)
I do like Timid over Hasty/Naive because of 3 distinct reasons:
Hasty hinders Tornadus-T's ability to pivot against common fighting types like Terrakion (locked into CC), Breloom, and Keldeo (locked into Secret Sword). Hasty is almost always OHKO'd after Rocks by a Fight Gem +2 Adamant Breloom.
252 +2 Atk Fighting Gem Technician Breloom (+Atk) Mach Punch vs 0 HP/4 Def Tornadus-T (-Def) : 71.91% - 84.62% (75% chance to OHKO)
252 +2 Atk Fighting Gem Technician Breloom (+Atk) Mach Punch vs 0 HP/4 Def Tornadus-T: 64.55% - 76.25% (12.5% chance to OHKO)
Naive means Genesect gets a SAtk boost, unless you use 28 Def IVs--but then HP Ice has 67 BP, meaning it will always OHKO with Tbolt/Ice Beam. Unboosted Ice Beams and Thunderbolts (even Thunder has less than a 50% chance) will never OHKO a full HP Timid Tornadus-T:
252 SpAtk Genesect Thunder vs 0 HP/0 SpDef Tornadus-T: 90.97% - 107.02% (43.75% chance to OHKO)
252 SpAtk Genesect Ice Beam vs 0 HP/0 SpDef Tornadus-T: 71.57% - 84.95% (2 hits to KO)
If at full HP, you can stay in and OHKO them with a Hurricane. Most Scarf Genesects just U-turn out regardless.
Although a more powerful U-turn can do more damage to Pokes like TTar, Rotom-W, and Jirachi, survivability is key especially when blessed with Regenerator.
Sleep fodder is always nice to have especially because of BW's sleep mechanics. Oh, and Focus Sash Breloom's popularity rise can be kept in check. U-turn or Volt Switch into Tornadus-T and suddenly they have a wasted Pokemon.
EDIT: Sleep Talk had a ton of discussion on the analysis page. Sorry about that. I should have CTL+F'd instead of just looked at the slashed moves.
Although Natural Cure is a great ability and probably the one to prefer, Serene Grace should be slashed on that set. 20% freeze and burn is significant.
There is also the chance of the opponent breaking sleep clause due to assuming Natural Cure.
84 hp ev's and 232 sp. def ev's give good special bulk and a leftovers numbers. Having already used those ev's for sp. atk and speed, there is not enough left to go mixed or physical bulky.
Occa Magnezone for trapping Genesects
Genesect can u-turn out. Unless the entire idea is that you can bait genesect into staying in for a free kill you aren't doing much. Does occa even avoid the KO at plus one?
i'd like to say specially defensive gliscor.
Gliscor (M) @ Toxic Orb
Trait: Poison Heal
EVs: 244 HP / 92 Def / 172 SDef
Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
it's pretty good. i can tank some special hits as well as physical. i'm horrible at descriptions.
The problem with specially defensive Gliscor is that it's typical checks are still going to walk all over it.
Hidden Power Ice Garchomp
Garchomp : Life Orb
100 Atk/160 SpATK/248 Spd Naive [+Spd, - SPDefense]
-Hidden Power Ice
You have EQ/Outrage to smash special walls, FB/HPIce for physical. It can K.O. Landorus 100% of the time with SR, 93.75% of the time with no rocks and it always k.o'es Gliscor
160 SpAtk Life Orb Garchomp Hidden Power Ice vs 0 HP/4 SpDef Landorus: 99.06% - 116.61% (93.75% chance to OHKO) [No Rocks]
but it is original, no? it's not meant to resist its usual counters, just to have some additional bulk and sponge some neutral attacks to poison the attacker.
Original is good, albeit swapping EVs is not widely considered original here. The secondary requirement is this set being good, of course. It still seems to be legit because I never see people running both Protect and Roost in one set.
Which may be the problem: One move is reduntant. Roost's advantage is that it heals faster at the cost of having to take a hit when you want to stay in. Rooster usually leave the field with quite a lot of health, but is left vulnerable to OHKOs and crits. Protect's advantage is that you can nab a bit of health from faster mons and enter the Sub-Protect shenanigans as long as you have a sub, even against attacks that usually OHKO you.
Having both makes it not much difference to the common Sub-Rooster. When it cannot 2HKO you (deals less than 62,5% damage), spam Roost. When it can OHKO you, leave. The fine difference is in-between; because to the additional turn of toxic-healing you gain 75% of your health so you can sponge attacks that deal less than 75% of damage instead of 62,5%. Unfortunately, this is a rather rare situation because most moves that can take down Gliscor tend to be stonger than that. Because of the prevalence of rain and dragons you probably won't see a team that neighter have powerful water moves nor ice.
As for Garchomp, it will probably take a bit of work to convinve myself of HP Ice. I usually take the direct approach with Swords Dance. Gliscor doesn't survive +2 Outrage and SR. Landorus, too, falls after +0 Outrage and SR. That's it, Ice and Dragon otherwise have a very similar coverage.
Fire Blast is much easier to justify because most steel types have a much higher physical defence. Even Jolly/0 Fire Blast roasts Forretress. With the additional SAtk it beats Skarmory after SR (Jolly/0 needs two turn for that) and Ferrothorn after SR (against, Jolly/0 needs two turns, or you simply SD to +4 and finish with EQ).
I cannot see the initial benefit of HP Ice. It seems like it should just SD and steamroll over the opponent.
Nice Set! This would counter Breloom easily.
Naive is now an option on that Sleep Talk set because Genesect is gone.
Choice Band - Moxie
Lonely (+Atk -Def)
252 Atk 252 Spe 4 SpA
- Sucker Punch
- Heat Wave
- Brave Bird
He is an excellent late game sweeper. If you can get a revenge kill out of him you will hit like a truck, even when they resist you you will be able to take at a lot of their HP before they take you down. Moxie + Band + STAB skyrockets his Sucker Punch.
Of course you will need to switch if they use Substitute or try to build on you (unless you can 1hko even when they are at +6) but since this is an unusual build nobody will expect a Choice Band on him so people may not try to build on you. Is not hard to counter a Choice user, but he is quite effective when they dont expect it or when they ran out of counters.
Brave Bird, Superpower and Heat Wave allows you to use him as mixed revenge killer. Superpower and Heat Wave helps when you predict a switch (since Honchkrow is a steel magnet). Also, Moxie helps a lot when you are Choice locked into Superpower.
Competitive pokes who can resist after the first Moxie:
Ferrothorn 252/88: 32.7% - 38.6%
Forretress 252/4: 33.1% - 39%
Heatran 4/0: 35.5% - 42%
Tyranitar 0/0: 42.2% - 50.1%
Terrakion 4/0: 52.8% - 62%
Scizor 4/0: 55.3% - 65.6% (1hko with a second Moxie after SR)
Gliscor 252/184 +Def: 57.6% - 67.8% (1hko with a second Moxie after SR)
Breloom 4/0: 72.1% - 84.7% (1hko with a second Moxie)
Cloyster 4/0: 77.3% - 91.7% (1hko with a second Moxie)
Stuff that doesnt resist it (just so you get an idea):
Jirachi 4/0: 91.2% - 108.2%
Blissey 252/252: 1hko
+Spe as nature can counter Mamoswine (it outspeeds and 1HKO him) if you really wanna go that route. SR is gladly appreciated since it counters Dragonite, Sash and it puts Cloyter and Jirachi in the 1hko zone. Magnezone is a nice way to deal with his Steel problem. HP Ice can be used to counter a Gliscor switch if you predict it but Brave Bird gives you a nice way to revenge kill stuff you cant Sucker Punch. Sleep Talk can be used over Brave Bird if you really want a sleep absorber.
Vaporeon @ Leftovers
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SDef / 8 Def
- Scald / Surf
- Acid Armor
This is built for a rain stall team, made to be the wall from hell. With required rain support and preferred hazard support, you switch it into a weak or not very effective special move then use acid armor to become a completely immovable object. After that, you take advantage of your immunity to status and ability to completely replenish your health in a single turn to stall the enemy to death. I have personally used it to great affect myself.
Just to show its insane bulk:
Timid Expert Belt Thundurus-T Thunder (The strongest attack its reasonably expected to ever take): 82-96%
Timid Choice Specs Jolteon Thunderbolt: 66-78%
Adamant Choice Band Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt w/ Vaporeon at +2 Defense: 70-83%
Timid Choice Scarf Rotom-W Volt Switch: 32-37%
Adamant Choice Band Victini Bolt Strike w/ Vaporeon at +2 Defense: 63-74%
Keep in mind Vaporeon only needs to avoid the OHKO to wall this stuff (at least until it runs out of Rest PP).
this set has existed since BW2 move tutors.
I've always avoided posting in this thread since I noticed that people are very critical about submitted sets as being not creative, unoriginal or just-not-good, but I may just have something worthy of sharing. Mind you the set may be weird, and it might not work for all teams, but this has been the secret to my current unexpected winning streak. Here it is:
Jirachi @ Focus Sash
Trait: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Spd / 4 Atk
- Trick Room
- Stealth Rock
"Trick Room on a Pokemon with a base speed stat of 100, Jolly nature and full 252 Spe EV's? Blasphemy!" you might think, but please hear me out. Having a fast U-turner that learns Trick Room is exactly what I needed, and if you are looking for one, Jirachi's the best there is. So what exactly is the deal. Basically lead with this Jirachi and set up Trick Room ASAP, which the opponent won't expect. This element of surprise, as well as the focus sash, guarantees TR is up first turn no matter what. So now with the dimensions twisted, Jirachi would most likely be going second, which is exactly what it aims for. A slow U-turn ensures that my next Pokemon comes in completely unscathed. This gives me an ensured opening onslaught with my TR abuser (which is another jewel I uncovered). The last two moves may be filler, but they've come in handy many times. Trick Room~Wish~slow-U-turn ensures the switch-in gets the healing (I hate it when the switch-in dies before receiving the wish!). Use Stealth Rock only when the opponents team is very vulnerable to it. I usually don't need hazards up unless the opponent has a Volcarona or Dragonite.
There are really few Pokemon that can outright OHKO a max HP Jirachi so focus sash seems really pointless. You better use a resist berry (occa preferably) or mental herb to prevent random taunt users from making this set completely useless.
Well the Sash is really because I get OHKO'd by Ninetales Fire Blast, which I wanted to avoid. Does Occa berry accomplish this? And faster Taunters are very rare, so not much problems there.
Interesting imo, but I don't think Sash is really needed. There are FEW pokemons that can 0HKo a 252HP Jirachi, just pair Jirachi with a Pokemon that Levitate for instance and isn't weak to fire.
The issue with your set, you're putting 0 offensive pressure and in a Trick room, you have better "suicide lead".
Basically a LVL1 Smeargle can do the same, but also deal damage with Endeavor. He will also bring the sweepers safely, because they come after his death.
I'm not saying the idea is bad at all. Change your item, this doesn't fit Jirachi.
His weakness are patched by his mates easily, like Slowbro to eat Fire moves and EQ.
EDIT : ninja'd badly :<
252 SpAtk Ninetales Flamethrower vs 252 HP/0 SpDef Occa Berry Jirachi: 41,83% - 49,75%. And TR has negative priority so speed doesn't matter on the taunt user.
Landorus @ Life Orb
Trait: Sheer Force
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
- Calm Mind
- Rock Polish
- Earth Power
- Hidden Power [Flying] / Focus Blast / Psychic
This is a rather odd Landorus-I set I've been toying with lately, but believe me, it does work. Essentially it's a pseudo-double dance variant of the usual Sheer Force set. What it offers over the regular RP + 3 attacks is the ability to bust up stall as well as offense. Earth Power will sometimes come up short vs. some specially bulky Pokémon - no longer, as with +1 SAtk, Earth Power will OHKO almost everything that doesn't resist it after hazard damage. Alternatively, it can still get an easy late-game sweep against offensive teams when using Rock Polish. If you manage to get both boosts, you've practically won the game unless the opponent has an Ice Shard user.
That being said, this set still has problems with certain Pokémon due to 4MSS - you have to sacrifice a coverage move. My personal preference is Hidden Power [Flying], as Ground/Flying provides fantastic neutral coverage, and still deals a metric ton of damage to most things that resist Earth Power after a Calm Mind boost (i.e. Grass types), despite not getting a Sheer Force boost. However, you'll miss out on coverage against Rotom-W, Skarmory and Bronzong, so Focus Blast is a perfectly acceptable alternative. Psychic is also viable so you can hit both Rotom-W and Flying types hard.