...hmm. You make some valid points, I hadn't thought of that before. As far as Counter's usefulness goes, opportunities to properly use it are few and far between I admit, but the value of having it when it's needed is definitely appreciated. I also try to avoid letting my Forry take HP Fires or Flamethrowers or the like as much as I can so that Forry has more time to set up and whatnot. As I said, it's not so much for countering Outrages as it is for anticipating setup sweepers like Conkeldurr (who admittedly isn't used as much anymore) and taking them out of the picture a la Explosion without actually killing Forry. Sturdy Counter is well worth having IMO. Volt Switch AND Counter is an interesting idea, though... I hadn't considered getting rid of Gyro Ball, though now that I think about it, it doesn't tend to do me too many favors, hmm... Sow what about this? Forretress @ Lefties Careful/Impish Nature, 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SDef - Spikes - Rapid Spin - Volt Switch - Counter I might try that set out, see how it does.