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Cresselia Suspect Discussion (Again)

Discussion in 'BW RU' started by Oglemi, Dec 20, 2012.

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  1. Oglemi

    Oglemi We broke it. Yes, we were naughty. Completely naughty.
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    What you're expected to do in this thread:

    1. Post which sets you used in the round and what you found good about it, what beat it, etc.

    2. Discuss Cresselia's place in the tier, has the metagame adapted properly to it? Does it break the metagame? What counters are there to Cresselia?

    3. All prospective and eventually-chosen Council members are expected to post their thoughts on, experiences using, and experiences against Cresselia in this thread. As of now the Council isn't determined, but they will have to eventually!

    4. The Council, when decided, should also post here to figure out a time when they can get on IRC on #rarelyused to have a dedicated discussion on the suspects. Not all Council members are expected to make decided time, but MOST if not all Council members should try their damndest to attend.
  2. ScraftyIsTheBest

    ScraftyIsTheBest Screw Water Druddigon
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    So after a while of Cresselia being in the tier, I have ultimately decided that Cresselia is broken. This thing has absolutely massive bulk, which allows it to take hits like a boss and any day. This thing is the whole embodiment of stall; it can essentially wall 95% of the tier without fail.

    First up is Cress's most popular set-the CM variant. This set can set up as many times as it like thanks to its bulk given by God and its reliable recovery in Moonlight. This also provides it not only quite a bit of offensive prowess, but the special bulk of God himself and with high Defense, it's gonna take hits well. It can run T-wave to cripple opponents or HP to run around its counters. Ice Beam can do too. CM is certainly a very overpowered set and hard to deal with.

    Dual Screens provides too good support. Thanks to its "Bulk of God", and recovery, it can set up Dual Screens and be impossible to take down. And it can hurt back for a little. Not only that, but those screens are providing a way to soften up damage for the team. This means typically frail Pokemon, like Absol and SD Sceptile and Scolipede get a nice chance to set up and wreck. And walls like Tangrowth get their job done much more easily. Clearly broken.

    Wall set too strong. Can cripple things and stall shit like no tomorrow. Poliwrath and Spiritomb also have Amazing synergy.

    Last, the sun summoner set is also amazing. It buffs its recovery in Moonlight, so it can sit there and heal off all damage. And support Lilligant and Charizard. Lunar Dance can help to heal off an injured sun team candidate, so they Can wreck shit. Charizard loves the support. This sun support from Cress is too good.

    Obviously, Cresselia is not invincible. Powerful attackers such as Escavalier and Absol can beat it down. But itss diversity along with its ability to wall the majority of the tier and support the team is too much. And its synergy with Poliwrath is too good. It needs to go.

    Ban.
  3. Molk

    Molk rip houndoom
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    Yeah, i was a supporter for unbanning Cresselia last round, but as time went on it started to become pretty apparent that the moon duck is, in fact, very broken. One of the main arguments that was used against Cresselia last round is that it wasnt completely unbreakable, and Pokemon such as Drapion, Escavalier, Crawdaunt, and Absol could punch through its defenses given the chance. As time went on we figured out that this wasnt the case, Cresselia was actually perfectly capable of going toe to toe with its "counters", being able to survive a hit from all of them except Choice Band Escavalier (but not after a reflect!), and either crippling them with status or wearing them down with repeated Psychics or Hidden Powers. After these very specific checks and counters are out of the way, theres nothing stopping Cresselia from simply walling its way through the rest of the opponent's team with little to no effort thanks to its reliable recovery and godly bulk. We also discovered various teammates for Cresselia to cover up its weaknesses just in case something went wrong, most notable of which is Poliwrath, who beats almost all of Cresselia's "counters" bar the rare Crotomb.

    Outside of walling pretty much the entire tier outside of a few specific threats, Cresselia can threaten the opposing team with its countless support options, from Dual Screens, to Rain Dance and Sunny Day, to Thunder Wave and Toxic, and to Lunar Dance, Cresselia can pull it off with ease thanks to its amazing bulk. I remember i used a Lunar Dance/Psychic/Thunder Wave/Moonlight Cresselia on one of my offensive teams during the round, it was pretty much the only defensive backbone i needed on my entire team, taking hits from pretty much anything the rest of my frail offensive team couldnt. Because of Cresselia's godlike bulk it found ample opportunity to paralyze at least half the opponent's team most of the time, and if for some reason Cresselia couldnt take another hit, or if i needed to pull off a late game sweep, Cresselia could simply Lunar Dance and revive a Teammate of mine such as Crawdaunt or Sceptile or Nidoqueen who could simply cleave through the remnants of the opponents paralyzed and weakened team.

    As mentioned before, Cresselia can set up Sunny Day like no other, as the sun itself buffs its reliable recovery option, and also gives the moon duck some extra power on its Hidden Power to take out Escavalier more easily, Sunny Day even has the added bonus of allowing Cresselia to do something no other Cresselia has done before (well it might have, but surely not as easily), wall entire Hail Teams into oblivion while completely screwing over the hail abusers, making them easier to pick off either by teammates or by Cresselia itself. After spending some time with Cresselia in the tier, i feel its wayyyyy too bulky for the tier to handle, and even though it may have some checks, it can easily work around almost every single one of them with specific sets, Cresselia is also too diverse for the tier imo, being able to run many sets for specific purposes, whether it be supporting the team with weather, or using a move like Reflect to stop the opponent's Drapion from breaking through you. It was fun while it lasted Cress, but its pretty obvious that for all that is good and righteous, you need to get out, and fast. Ban
  4. speed ghilliesniper

    speed ghilliesniper

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    I'l pretty much restate wat's been said. So bulky with the proper ev treatment next to nothing can ko it, can run hidden power fire/fighting/ground to deal with it's checks. Poliwrath beat's everything that beats Cress except for Crotomb or Thunderbolt wall breaker Absol, and really both of those specific mons can be played around and beaten by the rest of a team. In all honesty I have to run at least 2 Cress checks on every team or else I'm just completely screwed, and by the same logic when I look at a team with no Cress checks I almost feel bad just boosting to +6 and reaming through the rest of the team unless a crit takes it down.

    Honestly I was for Cresselia coming in to the tier to hopefully balance the tier while still being able to be broken through, but unfortunately it seems as if it's scewed the tier even more towards Nidoqueen style heavy bulky offense, while being even more broken than Nidoqueen meaning it has to go.

    Ban Cresselia.
  5. Texas Cloverleaf

    Texas Cloverleaf meh
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    The preceding post comes from the initial time of Cresselia's return to the RU tier, when it was time to determine whether it would stay BL or not. At the time, many posts were posting support for Cresselia, saying it balanced out the tier.

    It is now apparent that these posts are wrong.

    Cresselia has become the dominating force in the metagame, centralising everything around it. It will wall almost the entire tier, and it will sweep you if you give it a chance. It can even beat its own checks with minor moveset variations.

    The following are arguments against Cresselia, and the following rebuttal.

    Cresselia is supremely centralizing. Cresselia is supremely gifted at walling the majority of the tier. Cresselia is capable of sweeping. Cresselia is capable of defeating its own checks. Cresselia is broken.

  6. Windsong

    Windsong .dancin
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    I stand by exactly the same viewpoints regarding Cresselia that I had prior to this round, regardless of the new factors that Hail has added to the metagame. Cresselia is a ridiculously dominant and centralizing force in the metagame, and the post that Pocket made listing all the Cresselia "checks" (which can be found in the np thread) includes a significant number of Pokemon that either flat out don't check Cresselia or are only remotely relevant in handling it when playing a flat out hyper offense team that carries nothing slower than Cresselia. And none of those teams are doing shit to Cresselia once it's already in play regardless. So basically to reiterate a point that I feel I've made dozens of times, Cresselia's a ridiculously bulky, powerful, and versatile threat in the metagame right now, and legitimately has no place amongst the Pokemon of the RU metagame.
  7. for54years

    for54years

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    I ran a Specially Defensive set with Sunny Day, Calm Mind, Psychic, and Moonlight. This handled pretty much any special attacker, occasionally swept, but mostly acted as a pivot to wear stuff down for my sweepers. I originally had Thunder Wave in place of Sunny Day, but changed it out for obvious reasons. It died to plenty of stuff, including but not limited to Spiritomb, Escavalier, and especially Dragon Dance Crawdaunt.

    Cresselia is just so good right now that it seems like there's not reason not to use it. In that sense, I agree with Windsong that it is over-centralizing. Having said that, I don't think it necessarily breaks the metagame - it can be countered, and at times can even be set-up bait. I mentioned some of the stuff above that counters it, but I usually went with Infiltrator Spiritomb. One thing about Cress that I haven't seen mentioned (I may have missed it) is Moonlight's horrible PP. It ceases to be resilient if you can wear it down enough to make it recover 8 times. That may not be a big factor to an offensive player, but I imagine it is a real detractor for someone who's trying to play stall.
  8. Limitless

    Limitless Success is the best revenge.
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    Seeing as how I'm usually an avid OU player, it was really hard for me to believe that Cresselia was broken in RU. The reasons for my apprehension were because in OU it just sat on teams and did nothing. It would just be a sponge that you had take repeated damage, and you just rinsed and repeated. However, that strategy is too powerful in RU because it can just sit there for the entire match. In higher tiers, it can be overwhelmed by offense, but that's not the case here. It's an immovable wall.

    In addition to being an insane wall, it also provides the ability to sweep with Calm Mind (through either Moonlight or Rest/Talk), hail counter through Sunny Day + Moonlight, or even as a utility that uses screens and Lunar Dance for its teammates to setup.

    There are just simply too many ways that Cresselia can overpower the metagame, through offensive, defensive, and utility roles.
  9. SharKing

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    I'm gonna sound like I'm parroting everyone else, but there's a very good reason for that. It's because what everyone says is true: Cresselia is broken. It was too broken for RU twice before, and that has not changed this time around. For the third time in a row, it frustrates all of its opponents by flawlessly walling 95% of the tier. What's worse, it employs sets like Calm Mind and Sun support to readily skate around its "counters" to the point where they can't even be called counters.

    And on a more personal note, I am not surprised by any of this. The only part of this that surprised me in any way was that Cresselia was let back into RU again after its aforementioned history of broken-ness. "Are you freakin' kidding me!?" is what ran through my head when I first saw this.

    Ban this thing. And never let it terrorize RU again, please.
  10. Nails

    Nails EAST 2014
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    lol you guys actually unbanned cresselia and voted it not broken. my sides cannot handle this.
  11. Level 51

    Level 51 getting worse at mons day by day
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    Like the few previous posts, I could probably sum up what I have to say about Cresselia using only quotes from this page.

    I have to admit, first and foremost, that I did not use Cresselia during the Suspect round as I was to busy working with hail. I have, however, worked before with a rather successful Lunar Dance Cresselia, and I have met many of them in my travels through the land of RU.

    As I'm sure anyone who's played enough RU can see, Cresselia, while not contributing much direct offensive pressure itself, stops, while not quite "95%", a fair portion of the metagame. In fact, an unfair portion of it. Also blessed with an array of support moves such as Sunny Day, Thunder Wave and Toxic (but thankfully not Dragon Tail), plus reliable recovery in the form of Moonlight (plus Sunny Day uggghhhhhh), it's an excellent way to wear down the opponent's team, before it uses Lunar Dance, or dies, either way giving your sweeper of choice a free switch-in.

    As a wise man once said, "Cresselia is like a banana peel. It sits there, does nothing, and slips up your opponent's sweepers. Except Escavalier, which has no feet."
  12. Nails

    Nails EAST 2014
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    i don't think any wise man would've ever actually said that
  13. Level 51

    Level 51 getting worse at mons day by day
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    Yilx is pretty damn wise if you ask me
  14. Nails

    Nails EAST 2014
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    yilx hit his face against the keyboard to make his username how wise could he really be
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