Cresselia suspect discussion (See post #45)

[SevilitheArcanine]

cressilia: NOT broken. i am a person who loves stall teams. i tried a cressilia. i later ditched it and never looked back.

so lets see what it has to offer. first up, base 120/120/130 defensive stats are amazingly high, but what support moves does it get? dual screens, t-wave, toxic, moonlight, and the gimmicky lunar dance. not too impressive. and with measly 70/75/85 offenses, i does little to no damage. it doesnt even get night shade/seismec toss like higher tier walls like chansey or dusclops. so it can toxic stall. the opponent can toxic stall right back. and t-wave isnt worth noting. then theres cressilias signature move, lunar dance, which acts like a full restore on one of your pokes, but also sacrifies cressilia. i consider this move to be gimmicky and overall a bad idea. and then theres dual screens. cressilia is probaly one of the best dual screeners in the game with its huge defensives. but are we really gonna ban it for good use of dual screens? and while an offensive CM set sounds viable, no matter what most pokes take minimal damage from any of its attacks. and while it is certainly bulky, it isnt unbreakable. to prove my point, here are a few calculations to show this (all calculations are assuming cressilia is bold and 252 hp/252 def/4 spdef):

Max Atk Adamant Choice Band Aggron's Head Smash does 51.35%-60.36%
Max Atk Adamant Life Orb Durant's X-scissor does 71.62%-83.78%
+2 Sp atk Modest Life Orb Omastar's Hydro Pump does 91.89%-108.33%
Max Sp atk Modest Choice Specs Typhlosion's Eruption does 63.74%-75.23%
Max Atk Adamant Life Orb Honchkrow's Sucker Punch does 52.7%-62.16%
Max Sp atk Modest Choice Specs Porygon-z's Tri Attack does 53.15%-62.61%
Max Atk Adamant Choice Band Druddigon's Outrage does 43.92%-51.58%

These are just a few examples of some strong pokemon that can overpower Cressilia, most getting a clean 2HKO. Cressilia is not at all broken, and should stay in RU.

 

[Honko]

My feelings on Cresselia haven't really changed. I haven't used it on my own teams since the last vote, because Uxie's access to SR and U-turn simply makes it a better fit for the teams I used. And I haven't seen opposing Cresselia on the ladder at all. I actually just ran a search through my logs for this week. In my last 80 battles, only 5 of my opponents used Cresselia (I won 4 of the 5). As I said in my vote last time, it's hard to be confident something is broken when you never see it used successfully.

These calcs people keep showing that say "nothing can OHKO Cress!" don't impress me. Against a slow wall, it's 2HKOs that matter. Cresselia's purpose in life is to take hits and spread status, but those calcs tell me that Cresselia loses to all those Pokemon. If you want to use Cresselia, you need to have another wall that can handle the Bug- and Dark-types (including things like Sharpedo and Galvantula, which have very different secondary STABs). If Cresselia switches in on any of those Pokemon it gets 2HKOed. If Cresselia comes in after a KO and wants to paralyze them, it gets 2HKOed. You paralyze my sweeper, I KO your strongest wall? Sounds like a good deal for me.

I ran a simple offensive team for most of the round, just six offensive Pokemon with no real support. It was a pretty bad team, but also the most successful ladder team I've had in quite a while. In most matches I didn't have to worry about Cresselia because my opponent didn't have it. In the rare case that they did have it, I usually just found an opportunity to set up SD Feraligatr, who easily 2HKOes with +2 Crunch. If I got paralyzed or hit with a weak Psychic for 30%, so be it. Good trade for me.

(A calculation Omicron will appreciate: SD Samurott's +2 Megahorn vs 252/252 Bold Cresselia: 89-105%. OHKO after SR. Cressy doesn't even get a chance to paralyze if it switches in on SD.)

If it's broken, nobody has shown it yet. This defensive set that supposedly destroys offensive teams hasn't stopped offensive teams from dominating the ladder. I'm interested to hear from anyone who did use defensive Cresselia effectively this round. Maybe you could post your set, tell us about your experiences, maybe even show some replays/logs. Without some convincing evidence like that, I don't see any reason to kick Cresselia out.

 

[spuds4ever]

Cresselia's presence is hurting the tier imo. It's not unbeatable, but with the big bugs out of the tier, it's checklist goes down to about 0. With instant recovery and defenses worthy of Ubers, I'm amazed it came down to RU in the first place.

Let's have a look at some calcs shall we?

Firstly, the most powerful turn 1 special attack, porygon-z's specs tri-attack against cresselia with max HP and sp. def-

Player 1's Porygon-Z used tri-attack

Player 2's Cresselia lost 40.1%-47% of its health

next turn:

Player 1's porgon-Z used tri attack

Player 2's Cresselia lost 40.1%-47% of its health

Player 2's Cresselia used Recover

Player 1: :(
Player 2: :D

It's virtually the same story on the pysical side too with virtually nothing bar archeops' head smash denting it (and after 1 head smash, defeatist will have kicked in so that also fails to 2HKO). Cresselia can also use calm mind to get ultra-bulky on both sides.

In short, Cresselia is too powerful and I think the tier would be much better off without it. I mean, just look at its stats again and look at the other walls in the tier.

Cresselia: HP 120, def:120 Sp. def: 130
Claydol: HP: 60, def: 105, sp. def: 120
Clefable: HP: 95, def: 105, sp. def: 90
Cofagrigus: HP: 58, def: 145, sp. def: 105
Slowking: HP: 95, def: 80, sp. def: 110

I think that's enough said

 

[SevilitheArcanine]

Cresselia's presence is hurting the tier imo. It's not unbeatable, but with the big bugs out of the tier, it's checklist goes down to about 0. With instant recovery and defenses worthy of Ubers, I'm amazed it came down to RU in the first place.

Let's have a look at some calcs shall we?

Firstly, the most powerful turn 1 special attack, porygon-z's specs tri-attack against cresselia with max HP and sp. def-

Player 1's Porygon-Z used tri-attack

Player 2's Cresselia lost 40.1%-47% of its health

next turn:

Player 1's porgon-Z used tri attack

Player 2's Cresselia lost 40.1%-47% of its health

Player 2's Cresselia used Recover

Player 1: :(
Player 2: :D

It's virtually the same story on the pysical side too with virtually nothing bar archeops' head smash denting it (and after 1 head smash, defeatist will have kicked in so that also fails to 2HKO). Cresselia can also use calm mind to get ultra-bulky on both sides.

In short, Cresselia is too powerful and I think the tier would be much better off without it. I mean, just look at its stats again and look at the other walls in the tier.

Cresselia: HP 120, def:120 Sp. def: 130
Claydol: HP: 60, def: 105, sp. def: 120
Clefable: HP: 95, def: 105, sp. def: 90
Cofagrigus: HP: 58, def: 145, sp. def: 105
Slowking: HP: 95, def: 80, sp. def: 110

I think that's enough said

first of all, Cressilia doesnt get recover, it gets moonlight. and second, i have never seen a cressilia with max sp def. and if it turned out, for some odd reason, that it was max sp def, you could just send out one of the many physical attackers in RU that could easily 2HKO it (aggron, duranrt, crawdaunt, etc.)

 

[Saria]

first of all, Cressilia doesnt get recover, it gets moonlight. and second, i have never seen a cressilia with max sp def. and if it turned out, for some odd reason, that it was max sp def, you could just send out one of the many physical attackers in RU that could easily 2HKO it (aggron, duranrt, crawdaunt, etc.)

Moonlight is pretty much the same thing as recover in RU, since no auto weather summoners. Yes it only has 8 PP and it only heals 33% in Rain, but it is reliable enough considering Cresselia's massive bulk.

Anyway you said you can switch out from Cresselia and send one of its check, but exactly what is stopping Cresselia from switching out if you send a Pokemon like Crawdaunt, Durant and Aggron to "beat" it? Also neither of those Pokemon enjoy taking a Thunder Wave, so is not like they can switch in without any risk.

 

[spuds4ever]

first of all, Cressilia doesnt get recover, it gets moonlight. and second, i have never seen a cressilia with max sp def. and if it turned out, for some odd reason, that it was max sp def, you could just send out one of the many physical attackers in RU that could easily 2HKO it (aggron, duranrt, crawdaunt, etc.)

Moonlight, my bad. But I think my point is valid. I've seen a couple around myself. Ok, so it can't take the most powerful choice banded physical hits in the tier but to be honest, it's a pretty limited list and those guys are easily stopped with a little support seeing how predictable they are. It's not difficult for cresselia players to bring down threats like that early on and then bring it out later to stop any chance of a come-back.

 

[SevilitheArcanine]

Moonlight, my bad. But I think my point is valid. I've seen a couple around myself. Ok, so it can't take the most powerful choice banded physical hits in the tier but to be honest, it's a pretty limited list and those guys are easily stopped with a little support seeing how predictable they are. It's not difficult for cresselia players to bring down threats like that early on and then bring it out later to stop any chance of a come-back.

if a pokemon has a choice item or even a life orb it can generally 2HKO cressilia. and it is 2HKOd by almost every choice user in RU (see the calculations in my previous post). if a pokemon is seen with a choice item or LO, it generally has the attacking stat(s) to pull it off, and if it does, it can almost always 2HKO cressilia. and cressilia has no chance against boosting sweepers. for example, LO Omastar can usually OHKO after a shell smash, LO Durant with Hustle OHKOs it most of the time with a Hone Claws boosted X-scissor, and LO Scyther nearly always OHKOs Cressilia after a Swords Dance with a Technician Bug Bite.

 

[Rakan]

In my opinion, the most dangerous aspect about Cresselia is not Cresselia itself, but the success to which Cresselia manages to support its teammates. Powerful set-up sweepers such as Porygon-Z are given a much easier time setting up behind the protection of dual screens that Cresselia has set up, and can easily outspeed foes that have been paralyzed. In other words, Cresselia itself isn't a threat, but its ability to support the team and especially set-up sweepers is quite dangerous. However, I don't think we should be banning suspects based on their ability to facilitate a sweep by another teammate.

 

[Honko]

Yeah, we all know P-Z and Lilligant and Gallade are beasts behind screens, but Cresselia isn't the only reliable screener in the tier. Does replacing Dual Screens Uxie/Mesprit with Dual Screens Cresselia really change that much?

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

In a word, yes.

 

[Honko]

Very clever, Texas. Next time try adding some reasoning so your post actually has value.

What is Cresselia doing that the pixies can't, and turns the strategy from something players can handle into something they can't? I know what it's not doing: setting up Stealth Rock or using U-turn to give a safe switch without sacrificing itself. Don't just say "durrr, it's bulkier." Show how it turns games into wins, where Uxie/Mesprit can't.

 

[Molk]

in my opinion its that cress has enough bulk to set up something like trick room or weather, screens, AND lunar dance that makes it dangerous, all at the same time. cress can easily set up both screens and sun, then lunar dance to something like victreebel, victreebel uses growth, and so on and so on. its the fact that it can feasibly do BOTH at the same time that makes it more dangerous.

also it is faster than mesprit and bulkier than uxie

 

[SevilitheArcanine]

i dont see what Cressilia can do that the pixies cant. it seems entirely ouclassed by Uxie.

 

[Molk]

i dont see what Cressilia can do that the pixies cant. it seems entirely ouclassed by Uxie.

except cress is

1) bulkier

2) has lunar dance

3) has reliable recovery

mesprit may have healing wish, but dont say mesprit can survive to use rain dance, reflect, light screen, and then healing wish all in one go

 

[yee]

These calcs people keep showing that say "nothing can OHKO Cress!" don't impress me. Against a slow wall, it's 2HKOs that matter. Cresselia's purpose in life is to take hits and spread status, but those calcs tell me that Cresselia loses to all those Pokemon. If you want to use Cresselia, you need to have another wall that can handle the Bug- and Dark-types (including things like Sharpedo and Galvantula, which have very different secondary STABs). If Cresselia switches in on any of those Pokemon it gets 2HKOed. If Cresselia comes in after a KO and wants to paralyze them, it gets 2HKOed. You paralyze my sweeper, I KO your strongest wall? Sounds like a good deal for me.

What I meant to get across by posting calcs was just how hopeless it is trying to kill Cressy. If Scolipede is only doing like 60% with LO Megahorn, a 120 BP Super Effective STAB move only to get KOed back by Psychic, you lose your best way of hitting it and Cres is only down about half of its health. Not to mention it actually can actually switch in on Scarf Galvantula Bug Buzz and wall it if it needs to.

Sure, Durant can pose a real threat to it but thats one pokemon that can actually switch into it and threaten it. That's one attacker Cress can't beat one on one. It can T-Wave if it wants to even after it comes in because it's not like X-Scissor is coming close to KOing.

 

[Honko]

What I meant to get across by posting calcs was just how hopeless it is trying to kill Cressy. If Scolipede is only doing like 60% with LO Megahorn, a 120 BP Super Effective STAB move only to get KOed back by Psychic, you lose your best way of hitting it and Cres is only down about half of its health. Not to mention it actually can actually switch in on Scarf Galvantula Bug Buzz and wall it if it needs to.

Sure, Durant can pose a real threat to it but thats one pokemon that can actually switch into it and threaten it. That's one attacker Cress can't beat one on one. It can T-Wave if it wants to even after it comes in because it's not like X-Scissor is coming close to KOing.

Support Cresselia Psychic vs. 4/0 Scolipede: 78.62 - 93.89%. It doesn't even OHKO with a super effective STAB against a Pokemon with 60 base HP and 69 base SpD. LO recoil will finish Scolipede off, but it will usually get the 2nd hit off first. Everything else on that list of attackers you posted takes less. They all beat Cresselia 1v1.

 

[alexwolf]

in my opinion its that cress has enough bulk to set up something like trick room or weather, screens, AND lunar dance that makes it dangerous, all at the same time. cress can easily set up both screens and sun, then lunar dance to something like victreebel, victreebel uses growth, and so on and so on. its the fact that it can feasibly do BOTH at the same time that makes it more dangerous.

also it is faster than mesprit and bulkier than uxie

Uxie can also do all of these. Uxie just has Memento over Lunar Dance which instead of healing a teammate gives one of your sweepers a turn or even two to setup (you have screens and a free turn) which can be far more threatening than Lunar Dance in many occasions.
Finally Uxie is faster than Cresselia and faster/bulkier than Mesprit(doesn't mean anything just told it to show you how your final statement says nothing.

The only distinct advantage that Cresselia has over Uxie is reliable healing. But this doesn't matter most of the times since dual screens are used either on hyper offensive teams, which don't really care about Cresselia surviving a long time as long as it sets up screens, and weather teams which again don't really care about her surviving a long time, since everytime she comes in momentum is lost and the opponent has chances to setup. The only case were her access to reliable recovery is needed is in TR teams. In the other 2 team types i would use Uxie over Cresselia due to her ability to avoid becoming setup bait with moves like U-Turn and Memento and the access to SR.

Really Uxie and Cresselia are both superb screeners, and both have advantages. Uxie is faster and has SR, U-Turn and Memento, while Cresselia is bulkier and has Moonlight and Lunar Dance. Both seem equally good to me and i think almost everyone is overreacting about Cresselia since it is new to the tier and everyone is amazed by her titanic defenses. Even if Cresselia is the best screener, which i doubt, it is by a small margin so pls stop acting like all of a sudden a godlike screener came to the tier, where the next best thing we had was Eviloite Kadabra.

 

[Raikaria]

Support Cresselia Psychic vs. 4/0 Scolipede: 78.62 - 93.89%. It doesn't even OHKO with a super effective STAB against a Pokemon with 60 base HP and 69 base SpD. LO recoil will finish Scolipede off, but it will usually get the 2nd hit off first. Everything else on that list of attackers you posted takes less. They all beat Cresselia 1v1.

It's also a OHKO with Stealth Rock in play, or 3 layers of Spikes.

And usually at least Stealth Rock is an assumed battle condition.

 

[Sabinfrost]

I'm around 8th on the ladder with Dual Screen Cress, it's cheap, even if my opponent has counters it walls anything under screens, or lets a bulkier Poke like Feraligatr comfortably set up. Nothing in the tier has such an easy time setting up screens, the fact it has higher defense and special defense than most Pokes in the tier with investment, without investment is nuts. You can viably go max HP, max SpD, get your screens up before you take a hit, and still have a comfortable amount of defense (without screens) to switch in with.

 

[spuds4ever]

if a pokemon has a choice item or even a life orb it can generally 2HKO cressilia. and it is 2HKOd by almost every choice user in RU (see the calculations in my previous post). if a pokemon is seen with a choice item or LO, it generally has the attacking stat(s) to pull it off, and if it does, it can almost always 2HKO cressilia. and cressilia has no chance against boosting sweepers. for example, LO Omastar can usually OHKO after a shell smash, LO Durant with Hustle OHKOs it most of the time with a Hone Claws boosted X-scissor, and LO Scyther nearly always OHKOs Cressilia after a Swords Dance with a Technician Bug Bite.

Maybe you're forgetting thunderwave and dual-screens. Even if a player is stupid enough to switch in on something like durant or scyther, it can just thunderwave it and switch to a counter and wait it out until a safe switch comes in and it uses moonlight. Also, your opponent can take advantage of all these times you predict cresselia switching in and bring in their own set-up sweeper or just set up hazards and such. As mentioned above, Cresselia isn't too powerful only because of her ridiculous bulk, but also because of the support she can give so effortlessly.

 

[LuckOverSkill]

Well, about the Scolipede...it can't switch into if SR are up.

Also, 2HKOing Cress isn't THAT easy. Sure, CB/specs/LO SE STAB attacks 2HKO it (note that you need ALL of those), but that's it. Cresselia can Twave those, spam Moonlight/switch out. Congratulation, your attacker that you are using TO KILL Cresselia and other things is now cripper for the rest of the match (unless Heal Bell support). Cresselia also has that sexy subCM set that beats everything not called CM Spiritomb 1 on 1, only other CMers have a chance at beating it, but it's a PP/crit war, really. And CM tomb is the biggest Aggron bait in RU. At this point, with 2 pokes in a team you can obliterate pretty much everything with little prediction. Bug types HAVE problems switching into Cress, mainly due to Stealth Rock. Ghost types in the tier can't beat Cress anytime soon (unless you run something bad like SDef Rotom, nice overspecialized counter, that loses to subCM too!), Haunter is OHKOd, and can switch ONLY into Moonlight, and Ice Beam (if Cress carries it). Dark types...Sharpedo is known for his amazing chance to switch into a large portion of the metagame (Twave, HP Fight, that's perfectly legit on RU cress, Ice Beam is almost useless, it hits only Dragons...Zweillous Altaria Shelgon...that's it). Drapion isn't beating Cress anytime soon, nor is any other Dark type pokemon that's not CB Zweillous (lol).

I faced a lot of Cress while laddering, but to be honest I had the impression no one had an idea about how to use it correctly. My own Cress, on the other hand, claimed a lot of victims.

 

[Oglemi]

Just posting to say I am about this -- close to just shutting down this thread and only letting Honko vote on Cresselia cuz he's the only one in this thread who is actually posting facts and logical arguments.

If the pro-Cress banners don't start supporting their arguments with calcs, logs, or other evidence, I'm just going to start deleting their posts.

Seriously.

 

[DittoCrow]

With 120 base HP, 120 Def, and 130 SpDef, some may think this Pokemon is unbeatable in a lower tier such as RU. This is not true. With the plethora of Bug and Dark moves, Cresselia can be taken down with ease. Crawdaunt, Drapion, Durant, Galvantula, Spiritomb, Sharpedo, Scyther, and Scolipede make it unsafe for Cresselia to switch in. Also, super-effective moves from other Pokemon hit hard, such as Jolly Samurott's +2 Megahorn (without LO), which does 62.61% - 73.87% to Bold 252HP/252Def Cresselia. Huge hitters can take down defensive Cress as well. Adamant CB Aggron does 51.35% - 60.36% to this Cress. This proves that it is by no means unbeatable.

One of the most popular sets is the Sub CM set, but it is not unbeatable. With the addition of Spiritomb to RU, CM Cress is even easier to defeat. I've used my own CM Spiritomb, Klinklang, and even Quagsire (which stalls out Cresselia's PP, lol) to beat it. You are also able to send in faster Pokemon with super-effective physical moves, such as Durant, which takes 39.69% - 46.69% from a +1 Psychic, forcing Cress out after it breaks the sub.

As I posted in the np thread, I enjoy using support Cress on my teams instead, using this set:

Cresselia @ Leftovers
Nature: Calm
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpDef / 4 Def
- Thunder Wave
- Psychic
- Moonlight
- Reflect

I use this as an RU Blissey, since it is able to take almost any special hit in RU, even super effective hits. Timid Scarf Galvantula's Bug Buzz does 33.11% - 39.19%. This is my favorite set because it supports the rest of my, but it is usually taken down when trying to set up paralysis. For example, Cresselia vs. SD Feraligatr: Cress Twaves it, then Reflects, but it needs to recover on the next turn, giving Feraligatr a free Swords Dance. Psychic only does around 35-39%, while a +4 Waterfall with Reflect up does 56.31% - 66.44%. Another answer to support Cress is Taunt. With Psychic/Ice Beam being so weak, a Taunted Cresselia becomes set-up fodder.

In my opinion Cresselia is by no means broken or too strong for RU, especially with the addition of Spiritomb. Screens support may make things like Porygon-Z hard to take down, but that doesn't make Cress "too good." Uxie and Mesprit do the same thing. Uxie is faster and has Memento and U-turn, which is more useful than Lunar Dance in some cases. This Pokemon fits well in the RU metagame, it isn't too strong or too weak, and makes a nice addition to certain teams.

 

[spuds4ever]

With 120 base HP, 120 Def, and 130 SpDef, some may think this Pokemon is unbeatable in a lower tier such as RU. This is not true. With the plethora of Bug and Dark moves, Cresselia can be taken down with ease.

Hehe, sorry, but couldn't help but chuckling at this. OK, I'm going to take the points the others have made and not ask for Cresselia ban, yet. I haven't played a lot of RU recently and perhaps you guys have a better insight on it than me. But if you would let me ask the simple question. Would the tier be better off without Cresselia? Super strong often super-effective choice band moves are the only things capable of bringing her down even only by 2HKO. I think myself that this is way out of league of any other walls in the tier.

 

[Avira]

In my experience, Cresselia is not broken. It can do many things, but I do not believe that it excels particularly well at any of them.

The SubCM set is not overpowered no matter what two coverage moves that it uses, because any two coverage moves can be walled even at +6. Yes, its checks are different depending on the moveset, but the RU tier has many things capable of taking on a +6 Cresselia. Most teams do not even have to resort to doing this because they have Pokemon that can break Cresselia's Substitute and be an immediate threat to it, as Cresselia is very weak without several boosts.

I do not believe that the support sets are broken either. Yes, Lunar Dance can be an appealing option that fully restores a teammate, assuming that it is not KO'd by entry hazards, but Mesprit can also use Healing Wish, which is a comparable move. Mesprit can also use U-Turn and Stealth Rock to either help you get a sweeper in safely without sacrificing Mesprit's life, and to help your sweepers get in those extra KOs. Uxie can set up Screens faster and more reliably than Cresselia as its higher Base Speed allows it to speed tie with Drapion, and it also has access to U-Turn and Stealth Rock as Uxie does. As a wall with very high defenses, it can use status effectively, but there are other options in posession of recovery moves with higher amounts of PP that can also phaze out threats.