1. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.
  2. Click here to ensure that you never miss a new SmogonU video upload!

Cresselia too strong (a Standard Doubles sun team)

Discussion in 'BW Other Teams' started by voodoo pimp, Jan 14, 2013.

  1. voodoo pimp

    voodoo pimp Apply directly to the forehead
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnus

    Oct 12, 2010
    aka Solace is a noob

    I've always been a fan of sun teams, at least since Gen 5 introduced permanent weather to general competitive play. The ubiquity of rain makes it feel like the underdog even though it's still really strong. So, when Standard Doubles became a thing, it was only a matter of time before I tried to make one. Later on, after a random comment on IRC, I realized that Cresselia (arguably the face of doubles, and the go-to supporter for basically any team) could actually be used as a bulky attacker with Calm Mind, especially with Moonlight's huge 66% heal in sun. Thus, this team was born.

    Teambuilding details (open)

    I initially wanted to see what kind of damage Victini could do, and a sun team was the natural place to test it.
    Mandatory Chlorophyll abuser, I initially went to Victreebel since it has a better movepool than Venusaur (mainly Weather Ball).
    Cresselia is easily the most versatile Pokémon in doubles, fitting with little difficulty on just about any team. I initially used a different, more support-oriented set, but still with the intention of abusing Moonlight.
    I had moderate success with Blaziken in VGC, and figured it could flourish here with many of the new threats weak to one of its STABs.
    Shiftry was mostly there for Fake Out support, and Sucker Punch to a lesser extent.
    After a bit of testing, I was really disappointed with Victreebel's lack of bulk. When I decided to change its moveset, getting rid of Weather Ball took away its only advantage over Venusaur, so the switch was obvious.
    Finally, I was having a lot of trouble with Trick Room, and rain to a lesser extent. Kyurem-B patched both of those holes. After that point, the team started doing well enough that I didn't feel like any further changes would be necessary.

    PS! importable (open)
    Sol Invictus (Ninetales) @ Iron Ball
    Trait: Drought
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 SDef / 4 SAtk
    Sassy Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spd
    - Fire Blast
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Imprison
    - Protect

    World Destroyer (Victini) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Victory Star
    EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 SAtk
    Jolly Nature
    - V-create
    - Bolt Strike
    - Glaciate
    - Protect

    Sixth Ranger (Venusaur) (M) @ Sitrus Berry
    Trait: Chlorophyll
    EVs: 96 Spd / 252 SAtk / 160 HP
    Modest Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - SolarBeam
    - Sunny Day
    - Sludge Bomb
    - Sleep Powder

    U Can't Touch This (Cresselia) (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 252 Def / 252 HP / 4 SAtk
    Bold Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Moonlight
    - Calm Mind
    - Icy Wind
    - Psyshock

    KFC (Blaziken) (M) @ Expert Belt
    Trait: Speed Boost
    EVs: 176 Spd / 252 SAtk / 80 Atk
    Naive Nature
    IVs: 30 Def / 30 HP
    - Heat Wave
    - Hi Jump Kick
    - Hidden Power [Ice]
    - Protect

    Hypercube (Kyurem-Black) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Teravolt
    EVs: 200 HP / 252 Atk / 40 SAtk / 16 SDef
    Brave Nature
    - Fusion Bolt
    - Outrage
    - Earth Power
    - Protect

    Ninetales@Iron Ball
    Sassy, 252 HP/4 SpA/252 SpD
    Fire Blast

    In singles, many people regard Ninetales as dead weight, the number one reason sun isn't dominating the tier. In doubles, while the subpar offensive ability is still a bit of a letdown, Ninetales's decent bulk and support abilities can make it a valuable member of any team. Very few Pokémon appreciate burns - most physical attackers are of course crippled, while bulky Pokémon like Cresselia have their lifespan significantly reduced. Imprison+Protect is a great combo that doesn't see nearly as much play as it should - it eases prediction, invalidates many tactics, and makes Hi Jump Kick a much safer move for Blaziken. As for Fire Blast, it packs a decent punch even without investment, 2HKOing most things that don't resist it (Heat Wave, the generally more popular choice in doubles, is too weak to use on this set IMO). The EV spread gives Ninetales incredible special bulk, to the point where it can even survive weaker rain-boosted Water moves. Minimum speed and the Iron Ball all but guarantees that sun will go up on the first turn, letting me start off with the upper hand against other weather teams (and providing a nasty surprise for Trick Room users).

    Victini@Life Orb
    Victory Star
    Jolly, 252 Atk/4 SpA/252 Spe
    Bolt Strike

    Who would have guessed that such a cute little thing could pack such a powerful punch? V-Create all but guarantees at least one KO a game - click it and something dies. The fact that it can be so indiscrimiate in its targeting makes Victini exceptionally good at eliminating threats to the rest of the team, and I've had a number of games turn around in my favor immediately after I KO'd something with it. The other moves seem almost insignificant in comparison - Bolt Strike is mostly notable for OHKOing Politoed, which is obviously a major threat to the team, while Glaciate is basically filler but can be useful for the odd Landorus or whatever.

    Venusaur@Sitrus Berry
    Modest, 160 HP/252 SpA/96 Spe
    Sunny Day
    Sludge Bomb
    Sleep Powder

    As I was writing this up, I realized that all of the moves start with S, and are all two words if you count SolarBeam. I swear I didn't do that on purpose. Anyway, Sleep Powder should be pretty self-explanatory, but the others need more detail. SolarBeam is a very high-risk, high-reward move, and many players instinctively avoid it because of the risk of locking yourself into a weak attack, but it's come back to bite me exactly once (surprise Volt Switch brought the rain back), and done its job perfectly on many more occasions, so I have to consider it worth the risk. Like many seemingly risky moves, it's just a matter of prediction. Sunny Day represents one of my fundamentals of teambuilding - always have a backup plan. In the case of weather-reliant teams, that means always have some way to get your weather back if the inducer gets KO'd. One benefit that often goes overlooked is that most people are more willing to sacrifice their own inducer once they've "won" the weather war, so it can let you turn things back in your favor permanently unless they also have a backup plan. As for Sludge Bomb, Poison may look like a bad type on its own, but it has surprisingly good neutral coverage with Grass, hitting just about everything except Steel- and Poison-types (the former are handled by my Fire-types, the latter are uncommon and handled by Cresselia) and a neutral Sludge Bomb hits about as hard as a 2x Hidden Power. The EVs allow Venusaur to outspeed max+ Deoxys-A in the sun, maximize SpA, with the leftover improving its pretty good bulk.

    gonna skip Cresselia for now because she needs to go at the end

    Blaziken@Expert Belt
    Speed Boost
    Naive, 80 Atk/252 SpA/176 Spe
    Heat Wave
    Hi Jump Kick
    Hidden Power Ice

    For you singles players wondering why Blaziken is legal here, bear in mind that it was banned from OU primarily because of its SD set, and most setup moves don't work very well in doubles (and the fact that it lacks any powerful spread moves means it can't lock down the opponent by OHKOing everything). That said, it's still a powerful attacker, just not as unstoppable as it is in singles. Although some people prefer the physical attacker, I like the mixed set for several reasons. Primarily, the lack of recoil on the Fire STAB gives it a better chance of taking priority hits and switching into weaker attacks, and HP Ice makes it my best way of dealing with dragons and Landorus. Hi Jump Kick is another high-risk high-reward move; although Low Kick is a much safer option, I found the power to be lacking, and it's typically obvious when people are going to Protect against Blaziken (and if Ninetales is out with Imprison active, the issue is moot anyway). Speed EVs let it outpace base 130s at +1, max SpA to power up the attacks I use most often, with the leftovers dumped into Attack. Expert Belt boosts its power against most of the primary targets without sacrificing its already limited bulk.

    Kyurem-B@Life Orb
    Brave, 200 HP/252 Atk/40 SpA/16 SpD
    Fusion Bolt
    Earth Power

    Kyurem-B is sort of the odd mon out on this team, as the only one that doesn't benefit in any way from sun. But it is essentially a hammer, and its absurd power turns all of my team's problems into nails. Fusion Bolt gives me another way to deal with the omnipresent Politoed. Earth Power deals with the bane of sun teams everywhere, Heatran (40 SpA EVs guarantee the OHKO on 252/0 Heatran). For everything else, there's Outrage. If the opponent doesn't Protect or switch to a Steel-type you can pretty much guarantee SOMETHING is going to die that turn. Sure, you can't control it, but it doesn't really matter when everything you hit gets KO'd, and Kyurem-B's excellent bulk means that even without the ability to switch or Protect it'll probably take out a few things before it goes down. I forget what the HP and SpD EVs were for, but they work well enough so whatever.

    And now, the moment you've all been waiting for...

    Bold, 252 HP/252 Def/4 SpA
    Calm Mind
    Icy Wind

    You know, until recently I really, really hated Cresselia. I didn't own any of the Sinnoh games so I couldn't get my own before BW2, and she always seemed to give my teams a hard time (particularly in the last Wi-Fi tournament, where I didn't pay enough attention during teambuilding and basically auto-lost to any team with Cresselia). I finally decided to give her a chance when I made this team because hey, Moonlight in sun is pretty cool. At first I had a more typical support moveset, but at some point I came to the realization that ridiculous bulk + ridiculous healing + Calm Mind = unstoppable tank. Now, I can win most games just by taking out the things that can reasonably KO Cresselia, sending her in, and boosting up. She can quite easily get to +6 with stuff like Scizor and Tyranitar out of the way, and that Psyshock is going to take a big chunk out of anything that isn't Dark-type. Hell, sometimes I don't even have to attack; if Ninetales has burned enough stuff I can just stall the opponent out, not even a crit is getting through. Oh, and there's Icy Wind of course - in addition to doing heavy damage to anything weak to it after a couple of boosts, it's still the great support move it's always been, helping out Victini especially.

    How do I handle other teams?

    Goodstuff: CRESSELIA SWEEP. Unlike sun and rain, goodstuff teams typically lack raw power on neutral targets, relying more on super effective coverage and synergy to get their wins. So it's just a matter of breaking the synergy and taking out the super effective threats, then I'm good to go.
    Trick Room: Kind of an awkward matchup, but not necessarily hard. Only Blaziken and Victini really hate TR; while Venusaur prefers being fast, it can usually take a few hits, and everything else is slow and bulky. Generally I try to focus fire on the TR users, stall out however many turns are left
    , then treat it as a slow goodstuff team from there.
    Sun: CRESSELIA SWEEP. The common sun sweepers are predominantly special (Victini being the main exception), so even boosted fire attacks aren't much of a threat once Cresselia has a few CM's under her. Sleep Powder is a problem though, and I'm not a big fan of the idea of sleep fodder since every member of my team is important in every game (and the fact that your opponent has two targets to choose from makes it harder to do anyway), so the Chlorophyll mons are usually the primary target. From there I just gotta buy time for Cresselia to set up and I'm good to go.
    Rain: Undoubtedly my toughest matchup. Typically the game consists of my opponent and me switching our respective weather starters in and out; hopefully I can lure them into keeping Politoed in to be hit by a Bolt Strike/SolarBeam/whatever, or else slowly whittle it down through weaker attacks, and once the weather is in my favor it's usually smooth sailing from there.
    Sand: Kind of a tough one, since Tyranitar gives most of my team a hard time. Generally I've found that the most effective solution is to scare it out with Blaziken, then do as much damage as possible before it comes back in, and hopefully the rest of the team can handle it by that point.
    Hail: lol
  2. DTC

    is a Battle Server Administratoris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Pokemon Researcheris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributoris a Live Chat Contributor Alumnus

    May 8, 2011
    Great team voodoo_pimp. It has a bit of a learning curve, and it requires quite a bit of prediction, but it is a fantastic team when executed well.

    The only change I can think of is Fighting Gem > Expert Belt on Blaziken. When I tested this team out for 10 or so matches, I found a ton of instances where I needed just a bit more power for Hi Jump Kick to kill something such as Politoed. Blaziken is not going to be using Hi Jump Kick much, so the extra boost for when it does actually need to use it is useful. I don't think you will miss the Expert Belt boost too much, because Pokemon weak to Fire will just get smashed by all of your other Pokemon if they didn't get smashed by Blaziken already, and there are not too many common Pokemon that are weak to Hidden Power Ice. The boost from Fighting Gem also helps you against the rain team matchup.

    Cheers :toast:

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)