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Crisis Core Revival! Round Five

Discussion in 'BW NU' started by Raseri, Aug 2, 2012.

  1. ChaoticaMortis

    ChaoticaMortis

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    But you're supposed to counter THE CORE. Heavily crippling one Pokemon does not counter THE CORE.
  2. FLCL

    FLCL
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    It doesn't matter, perfect prediction is always assumed for your opponent. If you can't KO both Pokemon while being alive at the end then it doesn't work.

    252 Atk Life Orb Torterra (+Atk) Wood Hammer vs 252 HP/128 Def Eviolite Piloswine (+Def) : 77.23% - 91.34%
    Entry hazards damage: 100
    After entry hazards: 412 - 469 (101.98% - 116.09%)
    Guaranteed OHKO
  3. Django

    Django
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    It does not beat the core.

    252Atk Life Orb Overgrow Torterra (+Atk) Wood Hammer vs 252HP/252Def Eviolite Thick Fat Piloswine (+Def): 68% - 80% (276 - 326 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

    With Stealth Rock and Spikes, you cannot switch in. There really isn't any way to argue against this lol.
  4. ChaoticaMortis

    ChaoticaMortis

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    My previous idea was Rotom-F, which only worked about 50% of the time:
    Show Hide
    [​IMG]
    Rotom-F

    Rotom-F @ Choice Scarf
    Timid Nature
    EV's: 8 HP / 252 SpAtk / 248 Spe
    -Blizzard
    -Thunderbolt
    -Volt Switch
    -Trick

    Rotom-F is a 'mon that I already regularly run that I would be comfortable sending out against this core, so that's who I'm going with. Sadly, he's outright OHKO'd by Torterra's Stone Edge and Wood Hammer, as well as Altaria's Draco Meteor. The good thing is that he can come in on Torterra's Rock Polish or Earthquake, as well as Altaria's Dragon Pulse, HP Ground, or Rest and proceed to outspeed and OHKO both of them with Blizzard. A shaky counter, but a counter nonetheless.

    Calcs:
    Torterra:

    252 Atk Life Orb Torterra (+Atk) Wood Hammer vs 8 HP/0 Def Rotom-F: 96.3% - 113.58%
    Entry hazards damage: 60
    After entry hazards: 294 - 336 (120.99% - 138.27%)
    Guaranteed OHKO
    Switching into Wood Hammer is a bad idea...

    252 Atk Life Orb Torterra (+Atk) Stone Edge vs 8 HP/0 Def Rotom-F: 107% - 125.93%
    Entry hazards damage: 60
    After entry hazards: 320 - 366 (131.69% - 150.62%)
    Guaranteed OHKO
    As is Stone Edge.

    However, getting in on Rock Polish or Earthquake means you can take Torterra down easily.

    252 SpAtk Rotom-F Blizzard vs 4 HP/0 SpDef Torterra: 234.94% - 276.51%
    Guaranteed OHKO

    Altaria:

    252 SpAtk Choice Specs Altaria (+SpAtk) Draco Meteor vs 8 HP/0 SpDef Rotom-F: 97.53% - 114.81%
    Entry hazards damage: 60
    After entry hazards: 297 - 339 (122.22% - 139.51%)
    Guaranteed OHKO
    So you can't come in on Draco Meteor, but...

    252 SpAtk Choice Specs Altaria (+SpAtk) Dragon Pulse vs 8 HP/0 SpDef Rotom-F: 62.96% - 74.07%
    Entry hazards damage: 60
    After entry hazards: 213 - 240 (87.65% - 98.77%)
    2 hits to KO
    You have just enough bulk to switch into Dragon Pulse.

    252 SpAtk Rotom-F Blizzard vs 0 HP/0 SpDef Altaria: 222.68% - 263.92%
    Guaranteed OHKO


    So Rotom-F has a decent shot at beating the core, although it's only going to work about 50% of the time (probably less as I don't see Altaria using Rest or Dragon Pulse very often). I think Kadabra has been the best idea, although FLCL's Rain core looked like it would work as well. Anyone that wanted a standard 'mon could easily just pick up Fridge-tom though.


    I'd like to add two separate entries at this point: one that's a little gimmicky, and one that's competitively viable.

    First, the one that I think is a little gimmicky, which would be Abra. Cbb suggested it to me on IRC, and it looks like it works exactly the same as Kadabra does. With a Modest nature, Abra hits just as hard as Timid Kadabra does, and by extension can still OHKO both members of the core. Magic Guard prevents entry hazard damage and Focus Sash ensures that it will survive at least one hit (in the case of Torterra using Rock Polish to speed up and hit Abra).

    [​IMG]
    Abra

    Abra @ Focus Sash
    Ability: Magic Guard
    Modest Nature
    EV's: 4 HP / 252 SpAtk / 252 Spe
    -Hidden Power Ice
    -Psychic
    -Shadow Ball
    -Disable (Why am I listing moves other than HP Ice?)

    Calcs:

    252 SpAtk Abra (+SpAtk) Hidden Power Ice vs 4 HP/0 SpDef Torterra: 100% - 118.07%
    Guaranteed OHKO

    252 SpAtk Abra (+SpAtk) Hidden Power Ice vs 0 HP/0 SpDef Altaria: 96.22% - 114.09%
    81.25% chance to OHKO


    Abra can easily switch into any attack that either 'mon can fire off, after which it can outspeed both and OHKO both. Altaria will survive 18.75% of the time, but that's about as often as Draco Meteor and Stone Edge will miss, so I don't see a problem with that. I don't really want to take full credit for this, as it was suggested to me by someone else and also kind of rips off Kadabra, so I'd also like to give an original suggestion, which I will edit in shortly.
  5. Shovel

    Shovel

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    I would like to say to this:

  6. Bluwing

    Bluwing

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    Damn I just thought about him :/
  7. Fun With Knives

    Fun With Knives

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    :|

    Note to self: Torterra has a Life Orb.

    Okay, you win.
  8. NuclearMedicineT

    NuclearMedicineT

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    Gonna go lazy FLCL style.

    [​IMG]
    Delibird @ Focus Band
    Trait: Hustle
    EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd / 4 Def
    Jolly Nature
    - Ice Shard
    - Aerial Ace
    - Ice Punch
    - Rapid Spin

    The master of coming in and dying. Delibird has the important, but not very honorable role of being death fodder. Didn't really matter who I put here but Delibird has a chance of being useful if he were to survive due to Focus Band, Stone Miss or whatever. He can outspeed both opposing pokes to either hit them hard (I dunno if it kills or not) or Rapid Spin the hazards away for:

    [​IMG]
    Sneasel @ Choice Band
    Trait: Inner Focus
    EVs: 252 Spd / 4 Def / 252 Atk
    Adamant Nature
    - Ice Punch
    - Ice Shard
    - Low Kick
    - Pursuit

    After Deli goes down it is green for Sneasel to come in. And what's Champion Sneasel's job? To OHKO both of the opposing pokes before they even can move with ICE SHARD.

    252 Atk Choice Band Sneasel (+Atk) Ice Shard vs 4 HP/0 Def Torterra: 101,2% - 119,28% (Guaranteed OHKO)

    252 Atk Choice Band Sneasel (+Atk) Ice Shard vs 0 HP/4 Def Altaria: 129,9% - 154,64% (Guaranteed OHKO)

    So yeah that's pretty much it. Sack n' sweep. If Torterra were to get a Rock Polish up it wouldn't matter due to the priority with Ice Shard.
  9. ChaoticaMortis

    ChaoticaMortis

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    Posting here to say I updated my earlier post with Rotom-F.

    I would also like to say that any counter involving Delibird is fucking hilarious.
  10. Bluwing

    Bluwing

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    [​IMG]
    Charizard @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Blaze
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 Spd / 4 Def
    Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
    - Fire Blast
    - Air Slash
    - Hidden Power [Ice]
    - Focus Blast

    Charizard is a great counter to this core because, he can both outspeed and OHKO them both. Charizard can also come in on Wood Hammer and EQ from Torterra and OHKO with either HP Ice or Fire Blast, it can also come in on HP Ground from Altaria and OHKO with HP Ice (93,75%) at the time, also it is a clean OHKO after SR.

    252 SAtk Choice Scarf Charizard (+SAtk) HP Ice vs 0 HP/4 SDef Altaria: 97,59% - 115,46% OHKO (93,75%) (Guaranteed OHKO with SR)

    252 SAtk Choice Scarf Charizard (+SAtk) HP Ice vs 4 HP/0 Def Torterra: 102,41% - 121,69% OHKO (100%) (Guaranteed OHKO)
  11. ChaoticaMortis

    ChaoticaMortis

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    Charizard works worse than Fridge-Tom, and that was already a lousy idea.

    252 Atk Life Orb Torterra (+Atk) Stone Edge vs 0 HP/4 Def Charizard: 227.61% - 266.67%
    Entry hazards damage: 148
    After entry hazards: 824 - 940 (277.44% - 316.5%)
    Guaranteed OHKO

    252 SpAtk Choice Specs Altaria (+SpAtk) Draco Meteor vs 0 HP/0 SpDef Charizard: 96.97% - 114.14%
    Entry hazards damage: 148
    After entry hazards: 436 - 487 (146.8% - 163.97%)
    Guaranteed OHKO

    252 SpAtk Choice Specs Altaria (+SpAtk) Dragon Pulse vs 0 HP/0 SpDef Charizard: 62.63% - 73.74%
    Entry hazards damage: 148
    After entry hazards: 334 - 367 (112.46% - 123.57%)
    Guaranteed OHKO

    Besides that, you have to be able to switch attacks with Charizard to beat them both, which is impossible (edit: okay, this point was wrong).
  12. Fun With Knives

    Fun With Knives

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    Reserving Meganium and Togetic.

    Meganium@Leftovers

    Overgrow

    Bold

    252 HP/252 Def/4 SpA

    Synthesis
    Aromatherapy
    Giga Drain
    HP Ice

    Togetic@Eviolite

    Serene Grace or Super Luck

    Calm

    252 HP/8 Def/252 SpD

    Roost
    Heal Bell/Nasty Plot
    Tri Attack/Toxic/Thunder Wave
    HP Ice

    Meganium does most of the actual work for this counter. It can come in easily on anything Torterra throws at it, taking a max of 35.71% from Stone Edge, shrug it and the entry hazards off with Synthesis, and then go nuts with Hidden Power Ice. It fares reasonably well against Altaria, but can't take a Draco Meteor on the switch-in, the sole reason Togetic is part of this set. Togetic's job, as is complemented by its durability, is to come in on Draco Meteor, heal, and either attack or switch back to Meganium if Torterra comes in. Togetic takes a max of 44.4% from the first Draco Meteor, and therefore can easily tank out the second bar a crit.
  13. Bluwing

    Bluwing

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    I already know this. To take Charizard out the opponent has to predict it too come in, and Charizard dont need too switch attacks as it can OHKO them bot after rocks is up wiht HP Ice.
  14. ChaoticaMortis

    ChaoticaMortis

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    So basically it has a lower chance of surviving a switch into Altaria and a higher chance of surviving a switch into Torterra than Rotom-F has. My bad. Both aren't looking very great though.

    EDIT: Also, I don't think SR is up on the opponent's side of the field, just your side.
  15. Bluwing

    Bluwing

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    I forgot to calc it and put them in the description. Yeah both wouldnt be too great actually as they cant counter all 8 attacks.
  16. breh

    breh ● ︿ ●
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    Since I'm far too lazy to figure out anything (and Meganium is taken), I'll go with Bronzor.

    Bronzor @ Eviolite
    Bold Nature
    252 HP / 200 Def / 56 SpD
    -Rest
    -Sleep Talk
    -Calm Mind
    -Hidden Power Ice

    Torterra doesn't threaten Bronzor very much at all (has a chance at 4HKO; does hit harder when in Overgrow but it'll kill itself before you due to LO recoil and recoil) and Altaria's Draco Meteor is a 4HKO. Hidden Power Ice doesn't hit very hard, but does OHKO Altaria once fully boosted (meaning it can't stall out Bronzor with Rest).
  17. Yonko7

    Yonko7 Guns make you stupid. Duct tape makes you smart.
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    Im assuming they have 252 speed, not 252 special defense. Reserving lickilicky and someone else.
  18. Bluwing

    Bluwing

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    252 Spd is the same as Speed.
  19. drakon136

    drakon136

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    Meganium is taken? No problem! I'm reserving Bayleef.

    [​IMG]

    Bayleef @ Eviolite
    Trait: Overgrow
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 SDef / 4 SAtk
    Calm Nature
    - Synthesis
    - Aromatherapy
    - Toxic
    - Hidden Power [Ice]

    Bayleef is incredibly bulky with Eviolite, and it takes little damage from everything Torterra and Altaria can throw at it, and either stall them out with Synthesis and Toxic or kill them quickly with Hidden Power Ice. Calcs against Bayleef (using Honko's calculator):

    Draco Meteor: 139-165 (42.9 - 50.92%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Spikes
    Stone Edge: 111-131 (34.25 - 40.43%) -- 21.48% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Spikes

    And you may wish to know how much damage Hidden Power Ice does to these two.

    vs Altaria: Hidden Power Ice: 136-160 (46.73 - 54.98%) -- 60.16% chance to 2HKO
    vs Torterra: Hidden Power Ice: 160-192 (48.19 - 57.83%) -- 94.92% chance to 2HKO

    As you can see, Bayleef can quickly KO both of these pokemon and recover from any damage taken with Synthesis.
  20. Yonko7

    Yonko7 Guns make you stupid. Duct tape makes you smart.
    is a Contributor Alumnus

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    Speed is usually written as Spe, Special Def. is SpD, but whatever it was a mistake.

    ***
    *Used Honko's Damage Calc*

    I saw that Lickilicky was taken so I'll do Lickitung! and Weezing...

    [​IMG]
    Lickitung@Eviolite
    Trait: Own Tempo
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
    Nature: Calm
    -Wish
    -Protect
    -Ice Beam
    -Knock Off

    [​IMG]
    Weezing@Leftovers
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
    -Will-O-Wisp
    -Pain Split
    -Flamethrower
    -Sludge Bomb​

    Lickitung can tank Altaria's attacks all day, and night if needed. A Draco Meteor does less than 50%, with a -2 Draco Meteor doing significantly less. iirc, Dragon Pulse does basically 29%. To retaliate, Lickitung can use Ice Beam , depending on the user's prediction and to troll. Or heal back to health with Wish, and Protect.

    Calcs with Lickitung (open)


    Assuming Lickitung switches-in: Draco Meteor: 144-171 (37.5 - 44.53%) -- [98.05% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Spikes]

    A -2 does: Draco Meteor: 73-87 (19.01 - 22.65%)

    Dragon Pulse does: Dragon Pulse: 24.21 - 28.9%

    So, after the first turn Lickitung has (assuming max damage roll): 100-12.5-12.5-44.53 = 30.47%
    Then a subsequent Draco Meteor does: 30.47-22.65 = 7.82% , while this happens Lickitung uses Wish, and then Protect next turn. If the opponent goes to Torterra predicting Protect, then go to Weezing. If your feeling spunky -anytime- Lickitung can use Ice Beam to 2KO Altaria or Torterra, or use Knock Off to rid of LO or CS.

    Ice Beam vs Altaria: 176-208 (60.48 - 71.47%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    Ice Beam vs Torterra : 208-248 (62.65 - 74.69%) -- " "

    However, the downside is that Lickitung is 2KOed by Torterra's STABs. However, if LO is smacked off then, Torterra does slightly less.

    With LO, Wood Hammer: 210-247 (54.68 - 64.32%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Spikes

    Without LO, Wood Hammer: 160-190 (41.66 - 49.47%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Spikes



    Weezing's job is to tank hits from Torterra and euthanize it.

    Calcs with Weezing (open)


    With LO, Stone Edge: 88-104 (26.34 - 31.13%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock

    Without LO, Stone Edge: 68-80 (20.35 - 23.95%) -- possible 5HKO after Stealth Rock

    Doesn't really matter if Torterra has a RP or not, but it does get two hits before Weezing can do anything. Weezing in revenge can either use Will-O-Wisp, Flamethrower, or Pain Split (Depending on the relative HPs).

    Flamethrower vs Torterra: 138-164 (41.56 - 49.39%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

    Sludge Bomb vs Torterra: 29.21 - 34.63%

    Now what are the chances that Torterra came in at 100%, well I don't either, but Torterra could have been hit by Ice Beam if Lickitung was feeling spunky.

    Now what if the opponent knows your gonna use Flamethower and goes to Altaria well fear not, because you can use Sludge Bomb if you think they are. In addition, as seen above, Sludge Bomb does decent damage to Torterra.

    Sludge Bomb vs Altaria: 82-97 (24.18 - 28.61%)

    Flamethrower vs Altaria: 8.55 - 10.02%

    The downside is that Altaria rapes Weezing.

    Draco Meteor with CS: 334-394 (100 - 117.96%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    Draco Meteor without CS: 223-264 (66.76 - 79.04%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock



    That's all :naughty:
  21. Lady Shinki

    Lady Shinki

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    Miltank @ Leftovers
    252 HP/252 SpDef/4 Spe
    Jolly / Sap Sipper

    Milk Drink
    Toxic
    Protect
    Return

    Calcs:

    Torterra's LO Earthquake: (50.25% - 59.39%)
    Altaria's Draco Meteor: (62.69% - 74.11%)
    Altaria's Dragon Pulse: (40.61% - 47.97%)

    Return vs. Torterra: (26.59% - 31.72%) (4hko but you'll just LO/toxic stall anyway)
    Return vs. Altaria: (34.36% - 40.55%) (guaranteed 3hko)

    With the Jolly nature and 4 EVs, miltank outspeeds both altaria and torterra (before boosting). If Torterra uses Rock Polish on the switch-in, it can still be stalled out because Torterra's strongest attack is Earthquake, which will not do enough to bypass milk drink+protect with lefties. Miltank can outspeed Altaria and alternate between Milk Drink+Protect to recover health while using Return on moves that won't KO, like -2 Draco Meteor or Dragon Pulse. Toxic Torterra on a move that won't ko you and stall it (or LO recoil stall if it uses Rock Polish first), hit altaria with return until it dies. Barring crits, this should work as a counter.
  22. Fun With Knives

    Fun With Knives

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    After Stealth Rock and Spikes, Torterra outspeeds and 2HKOs Bayleef on a switch-in.

    I had the same problem with Meganium not being able to come in on Draco Meteor, that's why I have Togetic as well.
  23. drakon136

    drakon136

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    Erm, Stone Edge is only a 3HKO with Stealth Rock and Spikes, and Bayleef can heal itself with Synthesis.
  24. Fun With Knives

    Fun With Knives

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    messed up my calcs

    using bayleef's base stats and togetic's typing

    :|
  25. melvni

    melvni
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    On the same note as those suggesting Bayleef and Lickitung...

    [​IMG]
    Servine@Eviolite
    252 HP / 118 SpDef / 140 Spe
    Ability - Overgrow
    Nature - Timid
    ~Synthesis
    ~Knock Off
    ~Hidden Power Ice
    ~Taunt

    Servine enters at 244 HP after 80 hazard damage
    Life Orb Stone Edge: 137 damage max
    Stone Edge: 106 damage max
    Specs Draco Meteor: 217 damage max
    Draco Meteor: 145 damage max
    -2 Specs Draco Meteor: 109 damage max
    -2 Draco Meteor: 73 damage max
    -4 Specs Draco Meteor: 73 damage max
    -4 Draco Meteor: 49 damage max
    Specs Dragon Pulse: 141 damage max
    Dragon Pulse: 94 damage max
    Synthesis restores 162 HP

    If Servine Enters on Stone Edge:

    Life Orb Stone Edge + Servine uses Knock Off + Stone Edge = 1 HP remaining min
    From 1 HP min…
    -Synthesis + Stone Edge = 57 HP remaining min, if it continues to spam Stone Edge, this must be done two more times (at which point you will be at 169 HP min) to get Torterra into KO range with HP Ice due to Knock Off and Life Orb recoil. Using HP Ice after the second time you use Synthesis won’t work because you’ll be left at 7 HP (inside Draco’s KO range even after synthesis) and Torterra may die from Life Orb recoil after it uses its fifth Stone Edge depending on the HP Ice damage roll. You need to be at more than 55 HP to be safe when Altaria switches in.
    -Synthesis + Altaria switch in = 163 HP min, enough to Knock Off Altaria’s Specs and survive a Draco Meteor with 18 HP remaining min

    Life Orb Stone Edge + Servine uses Knock Off + Altaria switches in + Synthesis + Specs Draco Meteor = 124 HP min, enough to Knock Off Specs, survive a -2 Draco Meteor, and use Synthesis (which leaves 164 HP min even if Altaria launches a -4 Draco Meteor)

    If Servine Enters on Rock Polish:

    The situation plays out almost the same as entering on Stone Edge, except Torterra is faster. Knock Off turn one, then Spam Synthesis till you’ve ensured you’ll have more than 55 HP when Altaria switches in.

    If Servine enters on Draco Meteor:

    Specs Draco Meteor + Synthesis + -2 Specs Draco Meteor + Servine uses Knock Off + -4 Draco Meteor or Torterra switch in = 31 HP min remaining (at which point Synthesis gets you very, very safely out of KO range)

    Specs Draco Meteor + Synthesis + Torterra switches in = 189 HP remaining, at which the Torterra scenarios play out except you start with more HP and win even easier

    If Servine enters on Dragon Pulse:

    Specs Dragon Pulse + Servine uses Knock Off + Dragon Pulse = 9 HP remaining min (enough to survive an unboosted Draco Meteor after a Synthesis)
    Specs Dragon Pulse + Servine uses Knock Off + Torterra switches in = 103 HP remaining min (enough to survive a Stone Edge after a Synthesis with 159 HP remaining min)

    -------------------
    Any time you have a chance, just spam HP Ice, since it at worst three hit KO’s both of them and Torterra has no recovery so eventually Torterra will die and Altaria won’t be able to Rest/Natural Cure stall (though Taunt helps prevent that as well to help ensure both are dead before you run out of Synthesis's).

    Edit: Forgot to mention the speed and nature ensure Servine outspeeds Altaria by one point.

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