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Crisis Core V3 [Won by Melvni]

Discussion in 'BW NU' started by Sweet Jesus, Mar 15, 2013.

  1. Celever

    Celever

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    Um... mantine? It has way more HP, and is bulkier than matyke because of that eviolite or not.

    Also is it bad I kept on looking at the OP trying to find the core for the week? Like I was practically ripping my hair out.
    Anyway, I'll have a look through some stuff and then edit this with my counter (prepare for noobish mistakes :|)

    Edit: Dammit sky don't make me look stupid @_@

    Anyway, I'll go with a guy who really helps my team with mushy and does pretty well against gardy on the two teams I use him on (I have like 15 NU teams. Sad right?)

    Let out hot air (Drifblim) @ Flying Gem
    Trait: Unburden
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Spd
    Gentle Nature
    - Acrobatics
    - Destiny Bond
    - Stockpile
    - Shadow Ball

    Well this guy is pretty impressive. He got onto my team becuase 1) it knows memento and it is a linoone core (I replaced it for stockpile for the purpose of this) and 2) it really helps me with those annoying psychic types. The guy has more than enough bulk to survive 1 shadow ball, and it has enough speed after unburdened acrobatics to either destiny bond second turn or get rid of it with shadow ball if gardy switched into a shadow ball. 0SpAtk Drifblim (Neutral) Shadow Ball vs 4HP/0SpDef Gardevoir (Neutral): 50% - 60% (140 - 168 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
    Or if it switched into acrobatics:
    4Atk Flight Gem Drifblim (Neutral) Acrobatics vs 4HP/0Def Gardevoir (Neutral): 75% - 88% (210 - 247 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
    Or if it switched into not flying gem acrobatics:
    4Atk Drifblim (Neutral) Acrobatics vs 4HP/0Def Gardevoir (Neutral): 50% - 59% (141 - 166 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

    So this thing can easily counter gardevoir. In terms of musharna? Well musharna can barely hurt drifblim with either of its attacks, and drifblim can at least do more damage to musharna than he can do to drifblim.
    Drifblim to musharna:
    4SpAtk Drifblim (Neutral) Shadow Ball vs 252HP/4SpDef Musharna (Neutral): 38% - 45% (168 - 198 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO.
    4Atk Flight Gem Drifblim (Neutral) Acrobatics vs 252HP/4Def Musharna (Neutral): 38% - 45% (169 - 199 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO.
    That's really close and weird :|
    Musharna to drifblim:
    0SpAtk Musharna (Neutral) Psychic vs 252HP/0SpDef Drifblim (+SpDef): 30% - 35% (153 - 181 HP). Guaranteed 4HKO.

    Note that drifblim is faster, so it can switch in and still bit mushy bar a crit!
  2. skylight

    skylight the cold never bothered me anyway
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  3. Sweet Jesus

    Sweet Jesus Neal and Jack and me, absent lovers...

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    Ok, I know many people think this but when I accepted gimmicks, I was very aware of what I was doing. This thread might seem to have the goal of discovering new sets, but very frankely it would be too complicated for the judge to determine at what point something really becomes a gimmick and give the correct number of points. On top of that, the older versions of this thread did not really help into discovering new sets because of plenty of factors. What I mean by this is that if you discover a revolutionnary counter and feel like posting it great, but this is more of a game than a way to discover new aspects of the meta.
  4. Punchshroom

    Punchshroom para is worse than sleep
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    One more thing: let's say you reserve a pokemon, but have two different ideas on how to go about countering the core. Is it against the rules to post two different sets of the same pokemon, while still considering it a "1 pokemon counter"?

    It's helpful to bring about the various kinds of potential in a pokemon, but point system-wise this can be a little unfair...
  5. Sweet Jesus

    Sweet Jesus Neal and Jack and me, absent lovers...

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    You are allowed to counter the core with a pokemon that is in the core itself, as long as it works. (sp.d ludi is one of the greatest ludi counters)

    It is not against the rules. However, I wouldn't encourage this practice for the following reasons
    a) you do not get more points for 2 sets of the same poke.
    b) if someone manages to counter one of your sets, they will get points.
    c) it gives me more reading and can make my life complicated as a host.

    Talking about my role as a host, this thread is more popular than I expected and I feel like a teacher stacking up correction (if I find out your counter doesn't work, I will not award points even if no one else has pointed it out). For this reason, I am reducing the length of a round to 5 days instead of a week.
  6. Don Honchkrorleone

    Don Honchkrorleone

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    @celever: By saying Mantine has way more HP than Mantyke seems that it's a very big difference, when the difference is by only 20 points (65 Mantine X 45 Mantyke). Even then, Mantyke actually takes Gardevoir's assaults better than its evolution (Although it takes Musharna's worse. I don't have a solid reason to why use Mantyke over Mantine, but aside for attacking and Haze, I don't have a reason to use Mantine over Mantyke since Aqua Ring can be used for Passive recovery. I also picked Mantyke because Mantine was taken ;~;

    Also, there is a fatal flaw on your Drifblim:

    252 SpA Life Orb Gardevoir Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0+ SpD Drifblim: 330-390 (65.47 - 77.38%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    As SJ said on the OP:

    Drifblim can't come in Gardevoir unless you manage to predict a Focus Blast. For that, you'll need to pair Drifblim with something that that will force Gardevoir to use Focus Blast, such as Wormadam-S. Then Drifblim can come and break the core assuming you predicted right. This is the best case possible because the owner of Gardevoir can attack with Psychic if s/he predicts a switch.
  7. Celever

    Celever

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    Oh no... That was a fail by me! :|

    I don't think I can edit the core now can I?
  8. Gl4ss

    Gl4ss

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    I assume we're not really taking entry hazards into account given that Vespiquen has been proposed without getting dismantled. Therefore I propose Articuno

    Articuno @ Leftovers
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 240 HP/ 16 Def/ 252 Sdef
    Calm Nature
    - Roost
    - Toxic
    - Haze
    - Heal Bell

    The strongest move the listed core can muster is Gardevoir's Psychic, which deals at maximum

    252SpAtk Life Orb Gardevoir (Neutral) Psychic vs 240HP/252SpDef Leftovers Articuno (+SpDef): 29% - 35% (114 - 136 HP). Guaranteed 4HKO.

    It cannot strike super effectively with Focus Blast as it is faster.

    It will never 3hko and gets stalled out by Toxic and Roost. Musharna is subsequently stalled out by a combination of Toxic, Haze, and Heal Bell
  9. JoshuaMunoz

    JoshuaMunoz

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    No one using offensive Pokemon to break the core, huh?

    the core (open)

    [​IMG] @ Custap Berry
    Trait: Trace
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spd
    Calm Nature
    - Light Screen
    - Memento
    - Encore
    - Signal Beam

    [​IMG] @ Sitrus Berry
    Trait: Pickup
    EVs: 252 Atk / 60 SpD / 196 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    - Protect
    - Extremespeed
    - Return
    - Belly Drum



    So the EV and IV spread may seem strange at first, but after some calculations I made, I found out that.

    This makes Gardevoir a decent check to the opponent's Gardevoir set. Shadow Ball is only a 3HKO. Meaning I can go for Light Screen, then go for Memento when Gardevoir's close to fainting, or go for something like Signal Beam just to damage the Gardevoir, and Encore is actually just a filler. If I do go for Memento and Light Screen, then i can go into Linoone and set up.

    Focus Blast from -2 Gardevoir (NOTE: WITHOUT Light Screen) does 44% max, more than enough for me to use belly drum, and extremespeed it. you also have a really good shot on knocking out musharna with return at +6 (shadow claw is weaker).

    So if Musharna lives a +6 Return, Linoone can still survive if it is at 50%

    Though there are some instances that may stop linoone from sweeping, and one of them is destiny bond from gardevoir. There is a way to fix this though. The scenario may go like this: you go for belly drum, and your opponent goes for destiny bond on gardevoir on the same turn, meaning if you knock your opponent's gardevoir out, linoone will die too, resulting in you losing with this core. one way to prevent that is to go for protect on the NEXT turn you go for belly drum, because your opponent may go for something like focus blast just to get more damage on linoone, not knowing it has protect. after that, you can go for extremespeed before gardevoir goes for destiny bond, and musharna is gonna die from return.

    EDIT: The EV spread on Linoone is to outspeed timid gardevoir.
  10. FLCL

    FLCL
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    can't the opponent just keep spamming destiny bond and then focus blast you when the screens run out? you can't keep protecting since it will eventually fail, which means the opponent will be able to either kill you with focus blast or take you down with destiny bond since it kills you after a belly drum even at -2 spatk

    also to everyone else in this thread who aren't one hundred percent sure on how this works: you are always expecting the worst case scenario.
  11. Punchshroom

    Punchshroom para is worse than sleep
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    The problem I find with most of the cores here is how weak they can be if they suffer a Sp.Def drop. Even though the highest chance for this is 20%, the fact that 4 out of 5 attacks of the Psychic core can drop your Sp.Def means you are at risk even if you resist the attack. This is particularly true for most defensive counters that I see here, especially if they can't boost their Sp.Def. Even the ones that can may risk being 2HKOed on the switch if they aren't fast enough.
  12. Gl4ss

    Gl4ss

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    Well unfortunately there are only so many Bronzor, Vullaby, and Metang in this tier so some of us have had to resort to less 100% hax proof deals. Be careful about how you use WORST POSSIBLE SCENARIO. Where do you draw the line for that? What if they get every Sdef drop with Focus Blast and Psychic? What if Signal Beam confuses you and you proceed to hit yourself 8 times in a row? 4 times in a row? The OP stated barring Crits and other Hax forms. Thus far it has not been stated that Sdef drops are not included, and it does not state that a full set of hazards are down.

    I'd say leave it to the 'judges' to determine where to draw the line and chill out.
  13. JoshuaMunoz

    JoshuaMunoz

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    One of the calcs above show that Gardy's Focus blast does only about 40% on chople berry Linoone WITHOUT the screens. So if the opponent spams destiny bond, and if screens wear out, and it goes for focus blast afterwards, then it doesn't really matter cause Linoone can live focus blast anyway (at -2) and retaliate with Extremespeed on the next turn. Musharna has a chance to live a hit, but it can be hit hard enough with signal beam from Gardevoir if it is in, and Linoone still has a chance of living the hit from Musharna without screens (I think about 45%~50%)

    In the end, this core can stop those psychics if they are well-played, but may still lose if Musharna gets a high damage roll on psychic without the screens, or if focus blast crits from Gardevoir. So I guess this core I made isn't too reliable, but usable.
  14. Lolk

    Lolk you can't stop the beat
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    If it is the worst case scenario we have to assume that all psychics crit and lower special defense.
  15. Punchshroom

    Punchshroom para is worse than sleep
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    While Bronzor and Metang (I apologize for my arrogance) are as close to foolproof defensive counters as we're gonna get (note that a crit max damage + a max damage Focus Blast brings down Metang, whereas a Sp.Def drop Shadow Ball + crit Focus Blast KOes Bronzor), there are still some counters mentioned that can hold their own. *Note that the problem pokemon is Gardevoir, as Musharna is too slow to utilise the drop before the opponent can cancel it.

    Aasgier's Ledian can set up a faster Light Screen to counteract the Sp.Def drop and bring in his fresh "+2 Sp.Def" Leavanny. melvni's Vespiquen, should she survive the second blow, can simply get rid of Gardevoir in one shot as opposed to Toxic/heal stalling and fix her Sp.Def against Musharna. The more offensive cores such as Starships's "Charizard Rape" core and scorp's Skuntank do not have to worry about the defense drops, but may have a tougher time against Sun stalling (via switching if Taunted) and confusion or switching in directly, respectively. We've yet to see what Shuckleking had in store for us, so there's that (though why he'd go for a 2 pokemon core baffles me, since Shuckle has the moves to manhandle both by himself).
  16. FLCL

    FLCL
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    your linoone isn't holding chople berry, it's holding sitrus. if the chople is meant to represent light screen, the opponent can just spam destiny bond and prevent you from attacking and stall it out.

    -2 252 SpA Life Orb Gardevoir Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 60 SpD Linoone: 226-268 (76.09 - 90.23%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    you two are misunderstanding me, i meant to assume that the opponent always outplays you in terms of prediction. there's no way to avoid hax but you can avoid the getting beat by the opponent even if they play perfectly if your core is solid enough. sorry for not being 100% clear before.
  17. JoshuaMunoz

    JoshuaMunoz

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    Oops, I guess I messed up in the items part. I was testing max speed Gardevoir and situs berry Linoone, but since they didn't work out well, I decided the max spdef Gardevoir and chople berry Linoone, I guess I forgot to change the item. Oh well, maybe next time.
  18. Symphonia

    Symphonia

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    [​IMG]@ Eviolite
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Sp.D
    Nature: Calm
    -Memento
    -Shadow Ball
    -Pain Split
    -Toxic




    [​IMG]@Expert Belt
    Trait: Moxie
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Sp.D / 252 Spe
    Nature: Jolly
    -Swords Dance
    -X-Scissor
    -Earthquake
    -Stone Edge




    Misdreavus starts the core off with the handy move of Memento, allowing Pinsir to switch in carefree and Swords Dance until he can KO both Gardevoir and Musharna. I will separate the scenarios of what I do if I switch in to Gardy and Mushy.

    Gardevoir
    Show Hide
    Misdreavus can switch into anything she can throw at Misdreavus, the strongest being Shadow Ball.

    252SpAtk Life Orb Gardevoir Shadow Ball vs 252HP/252SpDef Eviolite Misdrevus (+SpDef): 41.05% - 48.15% (133 - 156) Guaranteed 3HKO.

    Misdreavus can take two hits and Memento. Pinsir then comes in and Swords Dances. Gardevoir can switch or attack. If the former,

    252Atk Expert Belt Pinsir X-Scissor vs 252HP/252Def Musharna: 74.77% - 89.22% (326 - 389) Guaranteed 2HKO

    while the only thing Musharna can do back is a measly Psychic, which only deals 34.32% - 40.22% (93 - 109), not even a 2HKO. Gardevoir then switches in to die to a +3 X-Scissor (thanks to Moxie). Do I really need to show the calculation? 259.71% - 306.47% (722 - 852). If on the other hand Gardevoir decides to attack, its best option is Psychic. -2 252Sp.A Life Orb Gardevoir vs 0Hp/4Sp.D Pinsir: 30.63% - 36.53% (83 - 99) a 2-3HKO. Gardevoir dies to a +2 X-Scissor and the mighty Musharna is al most always felled by a +3 X-Scissor that deals 100.69% - 119.95% (439 - 523). However, Musharna can only counter with a Psychic that deals 44.65% - 52.4% (121 - 142).


    Musharna
    Show Hide
    Musharna is the easier to take care of. Again, 2 options: attack or switch. With the former, Psychic deals paltry 22.14% - 26.2% (60 - 71) a 4HKO at best. It and Gardy die in quick succession. With the latter, Gardy dies to a +2 X-Scissor guaranteed. Musharna is a 50% chance to KO, but Mushy can't do crap back and it Musharna dies to a second blow.
  19. Shuckleking87

    Shuckleking87 "Assault vest makes everything better" AV Seaking, BT
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    [​IMG]
    SHUCKLE @ leftovers
    Trait :CONTRARY
    Nature Careful
    252 HP/252 SD/4 D
    Toxic
    Rest
    Shell Smash
    Encore

    Yes, everyone knows it, the ultimate defensive monster. This is also one of my favorite shuckles to use (besides mud slap shuckle of course). Here are the situation:
    Gardevoir first on psychic: 86 HP damage given, or 35%. Cannot 3HKO as with leftovers, I will be fine. From here, I can start setting up shell smashes, and with contrary, my attacks and speed will decrease while defenses increase. With one shell smash after 2 86 HP attacks with leftovers, I will be at 100HP/244 with leftovers included, which gives me the option to shell smash again or rest, with psychic possibly 6HKO after a shell smash. Once dead to recoil, musharna comes in, I will have multiple special defense boosts, can toxic, rest and musharna cannot kill me. Encore can be used on predicted shell smashes or psychics to speed up process.
    Musharna first on psychic: Max 36 HP after leftovers. From here I can encore him into calm mind or a weak psychic, toxic, rest and shell smash. Once a couple boosts are accumulated, gardevoir stands no chance. If musharna calm minds first turn then uses psychic, it is a 5HKO, so shuckle should encore, then proceed with shenanigans.

    I wasn't sure if we could use more than one poke for different posts, but it seems like 1 post per person, so wormadam-s is back on market!
  20. Punchshroom

    Punchshroom para is worse than sleep
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    Not Power Trick Shuckle, how could you!? This is why I wanted that an entire pokemon not be taken by a single user.

    That said, there's no denying that Shuckle easily hardwalls the Psychic duo, so kudos to you on beating me to it.
  21. Sweet Jesus

    Sweet Jesus Neal and Jack and me, absent lovers...

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    Ok, I should close this round and post the next this evening or tomorrow evening (EST) so if you still haven't posted, do quick!

    I will consider the rules learnt for next round and have learnt a lot myself as a host. I'll be adding some rules and will make the core a little more difficult to counter ;).
  22. Shuckleking87

    Shuckleking87 "Assault vest makes everything better" AV Seaking, BT
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    Alright punchshroom, I get that I mentioned shuckle before you did. You don't have to repeat it. Power trick switches attack and defense, so that would be dumb with 2 special attackers. Power split average attack and special attack, essentially cutting Musharna and gardevoit's special attack in half. However, boost positive or negative are unaffected, so Musharna can 3hko with +6 even with power split. I did consider this, and encore is a lot more viable against musharna

    Edit: not a problem punchshroom, it's fine. It's great to see another shuckles lover <3
  23. Punchshroom

    Punchshroom para is worse than sleep
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    It is precisely because Shuckle is only dealing with pure special attackers that I even suggested Power Trick. Had one of them carried Psyshock or even any physical move, Power Trick is off the list.

    Edit: I think I get it now. Power Trick actually switches the user's own Attack and Defense; Power Split is the equivalent of Pain Split for offenses.

    ...I don't even get why you mentioned this. It's not like you even confused between Power Trick and Power Split since you know what they do. Not once have I mentioned Power Split, as that is a pretty slow (albeit not poor) way to deal with them. <--Never mind this :P

    I mentioned Power Trick because it allows Shuckle to function as both a defensive counter and offensive counter at once. Shuckle isn't 3HKOed by Gardevoir's Psychic excluding Sp.Def drops and crits, and can proceed to Power Trick and Bug Bite for the OHKO on Gardevoir and strong 2HKO on Musharna. It sets up easier on Musharna though (just like pretty much every counter listed).

    Sorry, did that sound whiny? I was actually complimenting you there.
  24. Sweet Jesus

    Sweet Jesus Neal and Jack and me, absent lovers...

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    The Core

    [​IMG]
    Braviary (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Defiant
    EVs: 252 HP / 240 SDef / 16 Spd
    Careful Nature
    - Brave Bird
    - Bulk Up
    - Substitute
    - Roost

    [​IMG]
    Piloswine (F) @ Eviolite
    Trait: Thick Fat
    EVs: 252 Atk / 16 Spd / 240 HP
    Adamant Nature
    - Earthquake
    - Icicle Crash
    - Ice Shard
    - Stealth Rock

    So, hopefully this one will be harder. Stealth rocks are already up on your side of the field when your counter comes in, so take them in consideration in your calcs.

    2 more rules!


    1.From now on, when someone posts or reserves a pokemon, he blocks usage of the whole evolution line, not only the pokemon. (example, someone posts cradily, you can't post lileep). Multiple rotom and wormadam forms are still accepted as different pokes but not those that don't change at all like sawsbuck or basculin.

    2.Although this did not happen in the first round, I don't want this to happen in this round, so: It is not acceptable to counter the core through pp stall unless you can do so in a small amount of turns with spite or pressure on a pokemon with few pp or if your pokemon wouldn't even mind a crit + a non crit attacking move (at+6 in this case). While this rule is instored because the pp stall strategy is way too crit weak, I will continue accepting slow toxic + recovery strategys even if they too can take very long. If you have any questions about this rule, you can contact me before posting your counter.

    I don't have time to compile points atm and will do so on the weekend.
  25. JoshuaMunoz

    JoshuaMunoz

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    [​IMG] @ Leftovers

    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 200 Def / 252 HP / 56 Atk
    Adamant Nature
    - ThunderPunch
    - Coil
    - Drain Punch
    - Rest

    Just by looking at both of the Pokemon in the core, I knew that Eelektross will be my counter of choice. Eelektross takes next to nothing with this EV spread, making even Icicle Crash a 4HKO after Leftovers recovery.

    I can simply go for Drain Punch and get a good chunk of HP back until Piloswine is weakened/dies. OR I can go for Coil, then rest up back to full, knowing that Piloswine cannot even 3HKO even without the boosts.

    Since Braviary's only attacking move is Brave Bird, Eelektross can easily set up alongside it. Thunderpunch can break even +3 Braviary with this EV spread! I dont think calcs even matter because it's obvious that Eelektross beats Braviary 1v1. But since its required...

    If we're literally just using a 2v2 battle with these Pokemon, Braviary cannot setup because it gets 2HKO with ThunderPunch. But it outspeeds, and can go for roost, and eventually find some space to setup, right? Well that's where Coil comes in handy, boosting Eelektross's attack stat, and eventually, lead to victory! Just for more proof :

    This is more than enough for Eelektross to set up some Coils, and even when Braviary is at plus 6, Eelektross may be at plus 3 and it can even set up more, and eventually knock out Braviary, who can't touch that slimy electric eel!

    EDIT: I just realized that this set doesn't pack a nature. I'm just going to change it to Adamant and show relevant calcs, etc.

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