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Crobat

Discussion in 'Locked / Outdated Analyses' started by CoolStoryBrobat, Dec 18, 2013.

  1. CoolStoryBrobat

    CoolStoryBrobat The hero Smogon needs, but not the one it deserves
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    QC: Fuzznip, PK Gaming, Plus
    GP: Jukain, Redew

    [​IMG]
    Crobat
    World's best Bro imo

    Overview
    ########

    Taking flight from the ceiling of its cave once again, Crobat flies through the night in the Overused environment, ready to swoop its way down into a team requiring its support. When taking a look at Crobat, a few things will immediately stand out: its blazing fast base 130 Speed, immunity to Spikes and Ground-type moves, a strong base 120 STAB move in Brave Bird, solid recovery in Roost, access to Taunt, and key resistances to Fighting-, Fairy-, and Bug-type moves. As with any Pokemon, though, Crobat isn't without its flaws, and these must be addressed when considering it for your team. A Stealth Rock weakness, overall average stats aside from its Speed, and weaknesses to common Ice-, Electric-, and Rock-type moves make it difficult for Crobat to stand out among its competition. It also has trouble dealing with Rock- and Steel-type Pokemon, and despite its incredible Speed, priority moves, barring Mach Punch and Vacuum Wave, will chip away at its health.

    Don't let these shortcomings discourage you, however, as Crobat has all it needs to stand out in the form of some newly buffed tools at its disposal. Defog now allows it to clear hazards from both sides of the field as well as dual screens, while its ability Infiltrator allows it to hit foes behind Substitutes, such as Gengar, Scolipede, and Trevenant. Toxic now has perfect accuracy when used by Crobat; in conjunction with Infiltrator, this allows it to be very annoying, spreading status through teams regardless of Substitutes. With everything it has in its arsenal, Crobat is able to find a spot for any team looking to deal with with numerous defensive and offensive Pokemon, while keeping entry hazards clear for its teammates.

    Standard
    ########
    name: Standard
    move 1: Brave Bird
    move 2: Roost
    move 3: Defog
    move 4: Taunt/Toxic
    ability: Infiltrator
    item: Black Sludge
    evs: 168 HP / 140 Atk / 200 Spe
    nature: Jolly

    Moves
    ========

    Brave Bird is a hard-hitting Flying STAB which allows Crobat to damage and even revenge kill frail Pokemon who don't resist it, such as Alakazam, Greninja, and Lucario. Brave Bird is also good for hitting Pokemon Crobat would commonly switch into, namely Grass- and Fighting-types. Roost heals Crobat back up and allows it to keep going, which is absolutely vital given its Stealth Rock weakness. Defog is a must-have, as it allows Crobat to take on a more utility-based role for the team by removing hazards from both sides. Taunt is preferred for the 4th moveslot as it allows this set to hinder defensive teams by preventing status moves and setup, working well with Defog as it helps Crobat stop hazard users such as Ferrothorn with ease. Toxic can be used to whittle down walls and defensive Pokemon, as well as hitting Pokemon behind Substitutes. U-turn can be used in the last moveslot if gaining momentum is absolutely important. This allows Crobat to function as part of a potential VoltTurn core with its teammates and help them maintain the advantage against Pokemon whom Crobat can force out. Lastly, Super Fang can also be used, because with Taunt and Brave Bird, it becomes much more of a pain to switch into Crobat, even for Steel-types.

    Set Details
    ========

    Black Sludge is useful for giving Crobat passive recovery. The given EVs and nature maximize bulk while allowing Crobat to outpace Noivern, the fastest threat whom Crobat can afford to deal with and get a fast Brave Bird off on while still allowing Crobat to OHKO Trevenant and Alakazam and 2HKO Greninja, offensive Starmie, Conkeldurr, Mega Venusaur, and Lucario with Brave Bird. Infiltrator is a must-have ability since it allows Crobat to beat Substitute users, and Inner Focus is generally inferior and more situational in comparison. Bear in mind, though, that Crobat's EVs aren't set entirely in stone, and can be customized specifically for the needs of the team. For instance, a spread of 248 HP / 62 Atk / 200 Spe may be more optimal for maximizing bulk for a full utility-based role, though the loss of power in Brave Bird will be significant. An offensive EV spread of 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe can also be used to maximize Crobat's strength and speed, allowing it to outpace even base 70 Pokemon holding a Choice Scarf, though Crobat will lose out on a lot of bulk, and the extra Speed does not help it outrun many other relevant threats.

    Usage Tips
    ========

    This set can be seen as a "glue" for teams that have issues with both heavily defensive teams and frail offensive hitters, as it does a decent job of handling both; as such, the moves can be easily adjusted if there are certain threats your team needs to deal with more effectively. For instance, if you are already running a Rapid Spin user, Toxic can be used over Defog, and with Roost and Taunt, Crobat can shut down any wall that isn't immune to Toxic and keep it from healing itself. It's preferred to take out the opponent's Stealth Rock user before using Defog, otherwise you risk compromising Crobat's bulk to repeated switch-ins to Stealth Rock. Try not to use the move beforehand unless it is absolutely necessary. Despite Crobat's incredible Speed, it is highly prone to being revenge killed by Choice Scarf users. If you run U-turn, hard switching is often advised rather than attempting to stomach a blow from an offensive Pokemon and U-turn, even if you're anticipating a resisted hit. When playing defensively, Crobat needs all the HP it can hang on to given its Stealth Rock weakness and opposing offensive pressure that can keep it from using Roost. Don't hesitate to go for Taunt against most defensive Pokemon, even if they are capable of dealing a hard blow; between Taunt and Roost, you'll be able to shrug off damage and maintain the advantage against most walls. Crobat also functions as a solid counter to Gliscor, due to being immune to both Earthquake and Toxic, while stopping it from doing anything with Taunt. Be wary of sets carrying Ice Fang, though, as they can eventually wear down Crobat and force it to Roost, possibly taking it out with an Earthquake, while taking little in return from Brave Bird thanks to Poison Heal.

    Team Options
    ========

    Though Crobat's typing offers it numerous weaknesses, it has resistances that allow it to fit into teams and cover up holes very easily. A teammate who can deal with Rock- and Steel-type Pokemon is absolutely mandatory, as they are hard stops to Crobat. Magnezone is a solid partner in this regard since Magnet Pull lets it reliably trap and kill a number of Steel-type Pokemon, while beating Rock-type Pokemon with STAB Flash Cannon on top of resisting all four of Crobat's weaknesses by itself. Despite having a shared Psychic weakness, Conkeldurr works well with Crobat as it not only lures out Mega Venusaur, who can be beaten by Crobat, but it deals with Zapdos, Heatran, Rotom-W, Tyranitar, and Bisharp with ease. Conkeldurr's access to Guts also means it can utilize status spread by Heatran, Zapdos, or Rotom-W and hit even harder. As mentioned, Crobat is a solid Gliscor check, so physical attackers who have trouble breaking through it, such as Swords Dance Aegislash, Garchomp, Mega Mawile, and Bisharp, are all partners who can take advantage of Crobat's support. Crobat is also able to plow down most Fighting- and Grass-type Pokemon such as Breloom, Venusaur, Celebi, Conkeldurr, and Lucario with Brave Bird so Pokemon who appreciate their removal, such as Rotom-W, Keldeo, Quagsire, Bisharp, Tyranitar, and Hydreigon, work with Crobat effectively. Pokemon weak to Stealth Rock who can take advantage of its Defog support also work well, such as Volcarona, Dragonite, Charizard, and Thundurus, since they all have an easier time sweeping with hazards missing from their side of the field.

    Other Options
    ########

    Crobat's movepool is somewhat shallow and doesn't offer too many other choices for it to use. Venom Drench is an interesting new move it gained this generation that allows it to significantly cripple any poisoned attackers, possibly forcing them back out in the long run while racking up hazard damage. A Choice Band set consisting of Brave Bird, Cross Poison/Super Fang, U-turn, and Sleep Talk can be used, though it is highly outclassed by Pokemon such as Staraptor and Talonflame, who both possess better coverage and are able to hit significantly harder. In a similar regard, Sharp Beak allows Crobat to hit harder with Brave Bird with little cost to its staying power, but it will greatly miss the passive recovery from Black Sludge. Crobat does have access to Nasty Plot and Heat Wave, enabling it to take on most Steel-types barring Heatran, but it is heavily outclassed as a Nasty Plot sweeper by Pokemon such as Mega Houndoom, Thundurus, and even Togekiss, who all possess better Special Attack stats and coverage.


    Checks & Counters
    ########

    **Steel-types**: Most Steel-types in general are able to counter Crobat and force it out thanks to their resistance to Brave Bird and immunity to Toxic; examples include Heatran, Magnezone, Skarmory, Aegislash, Klefki, and Bisharp. Bisharp is especially dangerous as it not only forces Crobat out for a free turn, but its Defiant ability allows it to switch in on Defog and get a free +2 Attack boost, making it an immediate threat for your team to deal with. Ferrothorn and Forretress are neutral to Brave Bird but are still able to take a hit with ease and deal significant damage to Crobat with Gyro Ball. Ferrothorn's Iron Barbs ability is especially discouraging to Crobat.

    **Rock-types**: Rock-types such as Tyranitar, Rhyperior, Aerodactyl, and Barbaracle are able to stomach a Brave Bird and either trap Crobat with Pursuit in Tyranitar's case, KO with Stone Edge, or set up on it while forcing it out with ease. However, all of them must be wary of switching into a Toxic.

    **Electric-types**: Electric-types such as Zapdos, Rotom-W, Thundurus, and Mega Manectric are able to switch in freely and KO Crobat with Thunderbolt or force it out and gain momentum with Volt Switch. However, they also have to be wary of a surprise Toxic on the switch-in.

    **Stealth Rock**: Crobat has a painful Stealth Rock weakness, so this often can render it easier to take down for some offensive threats. This, coupled with Brave Bird's recoil, can often mean Crobat may be KOed easily if it fails to net a much-needed KO with Brave Bird.

    **Priority Attacks**: Crobat resists no priority outside of Mach Punch and Vacuum Wave, meaning a boosted hit can leave a dent in it, allowing Pokemon such as Talonflame, Scizor, and Mamoswine to pick Crobat off.

    **Revenge Killing**: Crobat can be revenge killed easily by Pokemon such as Choice Band Talonflame as well as Choice Scarf users such as Terrakion, Tyranitar, and Garchomp. Faster threats such as Mega Manectric, Mega Aerodactyl, and Mega Alakazam are able to outspeed Crobat and OHKO with their respective STABs as well.
    Last edited: May 2, 2014
  2. CoolStoryBrobat

    CoolStoryBrobat The hero Smogon needs, but not the one it deserves
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    Kind of torn on what set to add next in specific, so if anybody could help me out a bit and also tell me if the first set I posted is okay, that'd be kinda cool
  3. Adam Lambert

    Adam Lambert

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    I think a set made specifically to Defog could be viable. Maybe, a little more defensive, with max Spe? Roost, U-turn, Super Fang/Taunt could be other moves on said set. It does look an awful lot like the "Stall Breaker" set, though this would be more "remove hazards and gtfo" type of thing. I'm not quite sure what else Crobat is good at, other than Stall Breaking and Defogging, though.
  4. CoolStoryBrobat

    CoolStoryBrobat The hero Smogon needs, but not the one it deserves
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    Definitely a possible option but wouldn't it be just about the same set without extra slashes? That's what has me so torn up about it. Unless a more offensive version with Defog was also listed to take advantage of Infiltrator, I doubt there'd be much else
  5. Adam Lambert

    Adam Lambert

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    Yes exactly. It'd be the same exact set. Which is just meh. I say keep that set and only that set for now, people with CC will probably discuss Crobat sometime and see if it has anymore viable sets. Maybe a more offensive Defog set and abuse Infiltrator would be alright, though.
  6. Worldtour

    Worldtour aka Swamp-Rocket
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    In the preview Crobat's Defog set looked like...

    <p>Crobat @ Black Sludge/ Life Orb <br />
    Ability: Infiltrator<br/>
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe <br />
    Jolly Nature (+Spe, -SpA)<br />
    - Brave Bird<br />
    - Defog<br />
    - Roost<br />
    - U-Turn</p>

    This is probably different enough to warrant a different set considering it has a more offensive approach (different EVs)
  7. IloveslakingIGN

    IloveslakingIGN

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    Definately include the above defog set. In my opinion, Crobat might as well remain in UU without it.

    I'm also concerned about the max speed + scarf 70 group being able to outspeed you if you don't max speed EVs. Not sure how much this matters though.
  8. alexwolf

    alexwolf Rain Summoner
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    Brave Bird shouldn't be slashed with anything, as it's Crbat's main revenge killing tool and with only Super Fang you can't revenge kill shit. Brave Bird and Roost are the only 100% must moves for any set, with Taunt, U-turn, and Defog being the three best after the main two moves. I don't think that Crobat needs two sets, as the moves and the purpose of each set are similar. Just mention the bulkier/offensive spread in set comments and make the main the other one. Taunt + Defog is a must if you want to prevent hazards from defensive setters such as Skarmory and Ferro, as otherwise they can just keep spamming SR / Spikes and engage a PP war, where they have the upper hand (SR/Spikes have more PPs than Defog, while Ferro can use Leech Seed to keep itself healthy while harrasing you with Iron Barbs + Leech Seed, and Skarmory walls you anyway). Here is how i would make the set:

    - Brave Bird<br />
    - Roost<br />
    - U-turn / Defog<br />
    - Taunt</p>

    I don't know which is the best spread so no comment there. Super Fang is also nice and could get a slash on the third slot, but i think its use is more limited than the other moves and so should just be mentioned in the set comments.
  9. CoolStoryBrobat

    CoolStoryBrobat The hero Smogon needs, but not the one it deserves
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    I'll get those sets in...As for the Speed EVs, I mean the most relevant base 70 Scarf users you'll see in OU are Magneton and Politoed, with Breloom and Cloyster being highly unviable yet potential Scarf users in that group...But even then, all four of them being scarfed are so rare to the point you shouldn't worry about them, bar maybe Politoed, who is still only 2HKOing you at best at the cost revealing to you it's Scarfed.

    252 SpA Politoed Ice Beam vs. 169 HP / 4 SpD Crobat: 184-218 (52.1 - 61.7%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
    252 SpA Politoed Hydro Pump vs. 169 HP / 4 SpD Crobat in Rain: 252-297 (71.3 - 84.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery


    Fair enough. I figured Super Fang would be useful if one wanted a bulkier spread overall, but you bring up a good point so I'll just keep this stuff all in one set. Thanks for all the help, all you guys
  10. Colonel M

    Colonel M I don't suck it's my team that sucks!
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    What's said here is my thought process. Mention Toxic in AC or OO. You really want U-turn for momentum or Defog to help Crobat become more of a utility bat.

    There's not much else to say really. I don't know about Crobat being viable in OU, though. I think the meta is a little too offensive and Crobat's bulk isn't the best. That's just my take on it.
  11. Swamp Link

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    It bears mentioning that Crobat is the best counter possible to Gliscor, being immune to Toxic and Earthquake, Taunting it, and hitting it through subs. This is important since Gliscor is a whore.
    Hootie and CoolStoryBrobat like this.
  12. CoolStoryBrobat

    CoolStoryBrobat The hero Smogon needs, but not the one it deserves
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    Can't emphasize enough how much I can't stand Gliscor, that'll definitely be mentioned in the comments. Would it be worthy to also mention to avoid Ice Fang? I know it's not really on any standard sets but it's still something that's seen being run on some odd Gliscor sets.
  13. Swamp Link

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    0 Atk Gliscor Ice Fang vs. 168 HP / 0 Def Crobat: 108-128 (30.59 - 36.26%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
    Hardly significant.
  14. CoolStoryBrobat

    CoolStoryBrobat The hero Smogon needs, but not the one it deserves
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    Alright, fair enough. Thank you

    Can a QC member come review this? It's been about 3 weeks since I've had this up
  15. Scoopapa

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    136 Atk Crobat Brave Bird vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Gliscor: 84-100 (23.8 - 28.4%) -- 95.5% chance to 4HKO

    Not all that significant either, it's 11.3-15.9% net damage after Poison Heal.

    Ice Fang definitely complicates things because it will eventually force you to Roost, risking:

    0 Atk Gliscor Earthquake vs. 168 HP / 0 Def Crobat: 248-294 (70.2 - 83.2%)

    You also do approx. 8-10% damage to yourself in recoil with Brave Bird effectively nullifying your leftovers recovery. If you don't BB, you are quickly losing your incremental progress thanks to Poison Heal. Gliscor has a chance to KO you through Roost with two Earthquakes or with Earthquake followed by Ice Fang if he predicts correctly.

    So Ice Fang might warrant a mention.
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  16. ColtCababa

    ColtCababa

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    136 Atk Crobat Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Trevenant: 342-404 (91.4 - 108%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
    136 Atk Crobat Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Trevenant: 344-408 (110.6 - 131.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    I believe that most Trevenant sets run max HP, don't they? Hence, I run 232 Atk investment to OHKO 252 / 4 invested Trev.
  17. CoolStoryBrobat

    CoolStoryBrobat The hero Smogon needs, but not the one it deserves
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    I actually took that one straight from Crobat's OU Preview without much question. I guess this is what I get for not taking the time to check the calcs myself...Though to be fair it doesn't really require a lot of prior damage to make that OHKO a guaranteed one, and even moreso if the Trevenant in question happens to set up a Substitute as Crobat switches in, since Infiltrator still lets you bypass. I probably wouldn't change it since that's still a pretty high chance for an OHKO, though. Not to mention, 232 Atk is really taking up a lot of space you could otherwise use for its bulk, and that isn't all too different from the alternate spread with 252 Atk I mentioned in the set details
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  18. Scron

    Scron

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    As a person who frequently competitively uses pokemon, I greatly appreciate the set you suggested. It really is an incredible stall breaker. My only complain is that it doesn't have much information on pokemon like Conkelldurr and Venusaur that are very common in the new meta. When you get a chance, please put in a part concerning what it can and can't OHKO with the suggested stat spread. I think this also agrees with many of the earlier comments and will help people like me get the information we're looking for so we can decide whether we want to run your set or not.
  19. Namso

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    Overview

    When you mention Infiltrator, it'd be useful to mention some specific Substitute users that Crobat can beat, such as Gengar and Scolipede.

    Remove this: "Black Sludge > Lefties," that's not Overview material.

    Standard

    Make the moveset look like this:

    Brave Bird
    Roost
    Defog
    Taunt / Toxic

    Crobat's a really good user of Defog with that fast Speed, and Taunt + Defog basically shuts down all entry hazard users. U-turn is not necessary on Crobat, since it has better things to be doing to be honest. It doesn't have time to U-turn. I'd like you to instead mention it in the Moves section if someone wants to use U-turn on it for some kind of U-turn core or just to pick up momentum or something. I also slashed Toxic with Taunt because Crobat is a pretty good user of it, being able to Toxic Substitute users and bulky checks attempting to switch in.

    Moves

    Remove the "and allows Crobat to revenge kill threats" and just mention that Brave Bird allows Crobat to revenge kill frail/weakened Pokemon who don't resist it.

    Taunt is no longer a must have, but make to sure to mention that it works great in tandem with Defog, shutting down entry hazard users such as Ferrothorn well.

    Reword the U-turn mention to say that it's an option in the last slot. Defog is important.

    Just make sure to reword the comments to reflect the new set change.

    Usage Tips


    "Despite Crobat's incredible Speed, it is highly prone to Choice Scarf users going for a revenge kill, so hard switching may often be necessary rather than relying on U-Turn to escape"

    If you use U-turn.

    "Don't hesitate to go for Taunt against most defensive Pokemon, even if they are capable of dealing a hard blow; between U-Turn and Roost, you'll be able to shrug off damage and maintain the advantage"

    Roost in general gives you the advantage, so you can just remove U-turn.

    Team Options

    You can make a mention of hazard weak Pokemon appreciating Crobat's fast Defog support. Volcarona and Dragonite are fine examples.

    Other Options

    You already talked about Super Fang in the set itself. Remove that.

    Checks & Counters

    Remove Jolteon, it's highly irrelevant.

    QC APPROVED 1/3
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  20. PK Gaming

    PK Gaming Pursuing My True Self
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    QC (2/3)
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  21. Professional2341

    Professional2341

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    Just someone random but:

    Wouldn't Venom Drench + Toxic be relevant on Crobat? You have mentioned Toxic in his overview, so I think if Toxic would be on Crobat's set, Venom Drench would work greatly with it IMO.
  22. CoolStoryBrobat

    CoolStoryBrobat The hero Smogon needs, but not the one it deserves
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    Venom Drench is a cool and underrated move, but I guess the big issue overall with that is what are you willing to give up on Crobat to use with it? You can't give up Brave Bird or Roost, and Taunt's pretty important in itself, though that's kinda the only move you can give up. Though it can work it can also be somewhat situational at times and won't net Crobat much outside of being able either force something out (Good with hazards maybe?) or just stall it down with ridiculous ease. I may list it in Other Options, but I'd like to see what QC has to say about it
  23. Tainic

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    I'd mention Sharp Beak in OO, as it adds an extra oomph to Batman's attacks without reducing its staying power too much.

    I would also mention that Crobat is one of the best Venusaur counters atm, bypassing the Subseeders set, hitting it super effectively with its STAB without giving a fuck about Venusaur's.
  24. CoolStoryBrobat

    CoolStoryBrobat The hero Smogon needs, but not the one it deserves
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    I'm a little shaky on Sharp Beak in OO, but I figured I'd add that (and Venom Drench) into OO and probably let QC decide if they're worthwhile options. I did mention Crobat deals with Venusaur (and most grass-types) effectively, I don't want to put too much emphasis on its ability to counter Mega Venusaur as it's easy for a scenario like this to happen:

    Opponent sent in Venusaur-Mega!
    Azumarill used Waterfall! It's not very effective!

    You withdrew Azumarill! Go, Crobat!
    Venusaur-Mega used Sleep Powder!


    ...Or even a scenario like this:

    Opponent sent in Venusaur-Mega!
    Azumarill used Waterfall! It's not very effective!

    You withdrew Azumarill! Go, Crobat!
    Venusaur-Mega used Leech Seed!
    Crobat's HP was drained by Leech Seed!

    Opponent withdrew Venusaur-Mega!
    Opponent sends in Heatran!
    Crobat used Brave Bird!
    Crobat took recoil damage!
    Crobat's HP was drained by Leech Seed!


    ...In general that can actually apply to switching Crobat directly in to most Grass-types since many of them carry status moves. While most of the time you can consider this to be a "worst-case" scenario, I wouldn't advise focusing on saying it outright counters them regardless of the set they run, just because at times you can often find yourself being Leech Seeded, Sleep Powdered, or even Will-O-Wisped (lol Trevenant) if you just carelessly throw Crobat in at something. I think just mentioning it's a solid check to most Grass-types in general is enough of a mention that needs to be made for it. I do appreciate your input, though haha
  25. Plus

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    I'd like to see a mention of Conkeldurr in Team Options because it commonly lures out Mega Venusaur which Crobat works great against, and because Crobat needs something to handle things like Rotom-W, Zapdos, and Steel-types like Heatran and Bisharp. The ability to utilize burns to your advantage works really well because Rotom-W likes throwing WoWs left and right.

    Nitpicks for the Checks and Counters section:

    When you mention Bisharp, mention how Defog gives Bisharp a quick +2 Attack boost as well because of Defiant, which makes Defogging on teams with Bisharp harder to do because giving Bisharp a boost against Crobat usually means you're going to be losing a Pokemon.

    Rotom-W and Zapdos need mentions in the electric-type section as well, just make sure you mention them.

    Name some Pokemon in the priority section that can threaten Crobat, things like Scizor and Mamoswine are pretty important to mention in particular. Also, ExtremeSpeed Genesect is going to leave a mark on Crobat especially since your spread gives Genesect the Attack boost. Speaking of which, those alternative sets you mentioned might work better if you added the leftover EV point into SpD, I noticed you didn't really do that for the other spreads but did it for the main spread.

    qc 3/3

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