Cryogonal Discussion

[pokemonisfun]

This is a Cryogonal discussion!

Everyone knows Spikes is a very powerful move in UU and can only be dealt with by three things - Magic Bounce users, not using many grounded Pokemon and of course Rapid Spin. I want to talk about Rapid Spin, specifically Rapid Spin on Cyrogonal.

The on site analysis is really questionable not being able to properly deal with things you would expect it to, like Zapdos or Nidoking or Roserade without taking a serious chunk of health while also being incredibly weak. There are clear benefits to using Cryogonal over other spinners in UU, particularly its Levitate ability and good special powers - both offensively and defensively.

One set that abuses this is...

Timid: 252 HP, 252 Spe, 4 SpA (Life Orb)
~Ice Beam
~Hidden Power Ground
~Rapid Spin
~Recover

Max HP allows for good special bulk, to the point where things like Zapdos won't be able to OHKO you without Choice Specs but doesn't do much for your physical bulk still. Life Orb adds lots of power, giving you more strength than max special attack Froslass even so you can reliably OHKO Nidoking, Zapdos, and Roserade before they can even touch you! It also helps against Sub+CM users, namely Raikou so your Ice Beam is strong enough to take out its Sub even after a CM boost if they try to set up on you. HP Ground is useful to take out Fire Pokemon, namely Chandelure who could block your Rapid Spin and isquite unexpected. It won't OHKO though without serious special attack invesment.

Calm: 252 HP, 252 SpD, 4 Def
~Ice Beam
~Rapid Spin
~Recover
~Toxic/Haze

If its on site it must be somewhat good right?!?! This now has loads of special bulk right behind Umbreon in that sense while still having good attacking power because Ice Beam is just so good. unfortunately you won't be OHKOing much nor will you be a true counter to most special attackers, Raikou and Suicune can just set up on you. Unless you use Haze! Of course the base 30 defense isn't helping Cryo tank anything but thats why you get six Pokemon I guess.

Looking at Cryogonal we can see he likes to be on a team weak to Spikes and lacking special bulk. It probably wouldn't hurt to add physically defensive Pokemon like Gligar or something and something that resists Fire/Rock/Fighting moves. Because most SR users can KO Crygonal and Cyro himself is weak to SR it may be unwise to use Cryo on a team that needs to spin SR only.

So what partners do you think should go with Crygonal and what set should we be running? And am I missing anything big?!?!

 

[Mazz]

Cryogonal is going to be begging for something to take physical attacks. Its paltry base 30 Defence won't get it far, as it suffers greatly from weak unboosted attacks. This makes Gligar or Cofagrigus a hell of a teammate. Cryogonal isn't exactly designed for power, despite the base 95 Special Attack, and had difficulties beating most, if not every spinblocker in the tier. It has to be running that offensive set you've posted, which I view as questionable, to have a hope of getting past even Cofagrigus. Chandelure or another strong Pokemon capable of eliminating opposing spinblockers would then be a good teammate for Cryogonal. Also, Pokemon that cannot stomach special attacks well, such as Gligar or Honchkrow, may desire to be paired up with Cryogonal, as they now have a teammate that can sponge those special attacks.

Fitting Cryogonal onto a team, from what I've found, is more niche than anything. If you're looking for a spinner, Blastoise is typically a better bet. If you're looking for a Special Wall, Snorlax and Porygon2 are much better ideas. However, as I said, the niche of combining both those elements is the one that Cryogonal does well, opening room on your team for another sweeper.

Set-wise, I've typically stuck to the bulkier set to take advantage of that base 135 SpD stat. I've never been in a situation where I was wishing that I was running an offensive variant, simply because Cryogonal typically has to catch what it would be hitting on the switch. This isn't because of its Speed tier, but because of the Defence stat. ScarfGon outspeeds, as well as many other threats. Most do commonly carry a Choice Scarf, bypassing Cryogonal's solid speed stat. The bulky set still scores well without running the additional power, severely injuring Gligar and other Pokemon weak to STAB Ice Beam.

I'd like to mention this, and it is shown on the bulky set, but Cryogonal does have access to the rare Haze. I feel there should be more emphasis on Cryogonal having this move, as its one of the contributing factors as to why the UnderUsed community should be using Cryogonal as a Rapid Spinner over the likes of Hitmontop and Claydol.


On the other hand, despite its barren movepool, would an offensive variant of Cryogonal be worthwhile in UnderUsed? There aren't a lot of Ice-type Pokemon that can be considered offensive in this tier, as Frosslass is the closest thing.

Cryogonal @ Life Orb / Choice Specs
Levitate
Timid / Modest Nature
252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
- Ice Beam
- Hidden Power Electric
- Flash Cannon
- Signal Beam / Rapid Spin

With that set, Cryogonal's Speed and Special Attack stats are taken full advantage of, getting the jump on a rather diverse number of Pokemon in the Underused tier. Ice Beam is Cryogonal's STAB move that would do rather decent damage to Flying-, Grass-, and Ground-type Pokemon such as Togekiss, Roserade, Shaymin, Gligar, and Flygon (non-Scarf variants). Hidden Power Electric rounds off the pseudo BoltBeam coverage doing considerable damage to the plethora of Water-types in the Underused tier, such as Slowbro or Empoleon. Flash Cannon is there for Rock-type Pokemon that don't carry dual Ground-typing. Signal Beam is there because Cryogonal's movepool doesn't offer anything else really, and hits Dark-types and Psychic-types for super effective damage. There are better Special Sweepers available to the tier, but this one will catch most people off guard, assuming that Cryogonal would be running a bulky set.

 

[ss234]

I've been using Cryogonal quite a bit lately-and I have to say I am impressed! Thanks to Recover, it has much more longevity over Blastoise, and it's special bulk allows it to beat Roserade one on one-so basically the premier spiker. Hilarious's set is really good actually-since it beats all the spikers one-on-one. This is the set that I am using. It's on a pretty offensive team, and I just wanted to try out Cryogonal since Blastoise is crappy and I love using Suicune.


Cryogonal @ Leftovers
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 200 Spd / 56 SAtk / 252 HP
Modest Nature
- Ice Beam
- Recover
- Rapid Spin
- Hidden Power [Ground]

This set has just enough speed to outspeed Timid Nidoking, and 1HKO with Ice Beam after SR. He also 2HKO's Roserade and Qwilfish with HP Ground, as well as 1HKO's Zappy after rocks-although he can't switch in since Heat Wave is an easy 2HKO. I gave the rest of the ev's to HP to maximise his bulk. On a more defensive team, I think Cryogonal's defensive set fits in really well. He easily counters Nidoking-which can be a major pain for stall to deal with if Snorlax goes down to a Focus Blast. And of course, Haze is excellent for blocking BP teams. Recover is a great reliable recovery move-and his weaknesses are quite easily covered-for example, Slowbro covers Fire-and fighting, while also taking on weak rock type moves, like Rhyperior's Rock Blast(not that weak, but still-Slowbro can tank it like a boss). He is ruined somewhat by Toxic, but a stall team should have a cleric like Roserade. Like Blastoise, he can beat all the spinblockers apart from Spiritomb(who runs Spiritomb anyway?) but he also beats the common spikers with ease-which Blastoise most certainly can't. Seriously, try him out-he's really good.

If you're looking for counters to Cryogonal though, then none can beat Bronzong. Bronzong resists both HP Ground and Ice Beam, and can set-up SR on him with impunity. Gyro Ball obviously 1HKO's Cryo too. Hariyama, however rare, is also a solid counter thanks to it's ability and its bulk.

@Pokemazter-I don't really think that a Specs set is all that viable-but if it is, definitely go Timid. Then you outspeed Shaymin and Zapdos, who otherwise decimate you. Cryogonal really suffers from 2MSS-in that it doesn't need anything apart from HP Ground and Ice Beam(perfect coverage on everything but Bronzong). I suppose you could run Signal Beam, but Flash Cannon is a bit pointless. Rapid Spin would be the best option in the last spot I think.

 

[DetroitLolcat]

Cryogonal is a decent Pokemon in UU. It's much better than some of the Spinners that are actually in the UU tier COUGH CLAYDOL COUGH.

Cryogonal has fantastic Special bulk, and it's a bad move not to significantly invest in Cryo's HP (at least) so Cryogonal can come in on just about any uninvested Special attack and plenty of invested ones.

In a tier with so many set-up sweepers, it's imperative that Cryogonal either goes offensive or uses Haze. I prefer the latter because significant offensive investment in Cryogonal either destroys its bulk, leaves it too slow, or still gives it power issues. Offensive tanks like Cryogonal generally want some power, lots of bulk, and some Speed, but Offensive Cryogonal only has the stats to do two of the above. Therefore, using a set like the one in the above post is a good idea.

 

[pokemonisfun]

Yeah I don't want to over hype Cryogonal even though I made this thread, just wanted to broaden everyone's horizons on Rapid Spin users and I think this

Cryogonal is a decent Pokemon in UU. It's much better than some of the Spinners that are actually in the UU tier COUGH CLAYDOL COUGH.

is probably the most accurate statement here about Cyrogonal.

Its has just about no defense, somewhere between Pikachu and Jynx in that regard I believe so the HP invesment won't help it at all there except taking very very weak physical moves like Gligar's U-Turn or something like that. UU is a little bit biased towards physical attacking and attacking in general mainly because Snorlax exists for special attackers while there is no real physical equivalent. Every team you see is going to have a physical attacker and they will OHKO you regardless if they have a super effective move or not so its hard to spin while under pressure without dying. Cryogonal is really unique in checking all of Zapdos, Shaymin, Nidoking, Togekiss and Roserade while still being able to spin but that requires heavy speed investment as well as heavy hp investment. Very little room for special attack evs which is why I go with Life Orb though I think Nevermeltice or Expert Belt could work.

Being able to have utility (rapid spin) while also countering most Togekiss is amazing for stall teams by the way.

I feel like Cryogonal often asks for lots of support to tank physical moves and its not exactly great to be weak to stealth rock if you are a rapid spinner so unless your team really wants something with special bulk and a good spikes spinner then you should consider using Blastoise who can generally counter lots more stuff (although it has no recovery).

 

[Farobi]

Cryogonal is indeed a pretty decent Pokemon, though I wish it would have a quite better moveset. Cryogonal and maybe Gligar are pretty good team mates. Gligar tanks Rock(not that good, but still.) Fighting and Steel (but who uses Steel offense anyway?) Cryo can tak e Ice types with ease (except for physical attacking ones, of course.). But I dont see anyone really use ice punch on UU.

 

[WhiteQueen]

I put Cryogonal on the map when hail was still unbanned. max speed and max sp.attak is the way to go. It's fast and specially powerful/bulky which makes it quite useful agaianst stuff like roserade and zapdos. Just make sure, like someone stated, that you pair her up with a physically defensive Pokemon like cofagrius

 

[ss234]

Cofagrigus, Slowbro, Arcanine and Suicune are definitely Cryo's best partners IMO for both defensive and offensive teams. All of them hate Toxic Spikes, while Suicune can set-up Calm Mind's or seriously cripple some of the most common Stealth Rockers like Bronzong and Rhyperior who decimate Cryo, and Slowbro has the ability to take fire and fighting type moves. Cryo can beat Shaymin and Roserade if you can predict the switch. They're bulky enough to take a fire move from Darm or Victini too, and if it is CroCune then it might be able to take on Heracross as well for Cryo. Slowbro has to watch out for Megahorn from Hera however. Cofagrigus obviously tanks physical hits like a boss, and handles fighting type moves much more easily than Cryo(obviously). Defensive Cofag can cripple Zong and Rhyperior with Will-O-Wisp too. Arcanine hates all forms of entry hazards-especially SR and Toxic Spikes. Again, Will-O-Wisp and Lava Plume especially help Arcanine take on Cryo's counters. It can't beat Rhyperior however-it has a better time against Bronzong though. These guys all fit quite nicely on a stall team, where Haze and a spinner with reliable recovery are more appreciated, but all can work well on balanced teams or even offensive teams.

 

[cim]

The main issue I see with Cryogonal is that it's got a pretty specific niche. It's SR weak, so spinning that is not a great idea, and if you have an issue with Toxic Spikes, you're better off using a Roserade or a Nido on your team as that doesn't waste a turn with removal.

It can sit on Roserade all day, but for Froslass it needs to be running Flash Cannon to dispatch it, since it resists Ice Beam and Taunts away status. That's why I think it would be better served running coverage moves rather than support moves like Toxic since it's going to be hopping in and out a lot with that wonderful 30 base Defense.

It's better than Claydol, but I don't know if it's better than Hitmontop.

 

[King John]

I've always thought that Cryogonal was a bit too frail to be usable, but after doing some research, I am seriously considering testing out the crystal snowflake (or whatever it's supposed to be...go figure) as a spinner. Wish me luck.

 

[Mew]

Cryogonal still gets F'd in the A by T-wave and Air Slash from Togekiss in my experience. Heracross and a lot of other physically-based threats in the metagame rape Cryogonal too easily. It's a more a threat on your own team than leaving a positive effect. Sure switching can fix the problem, but then..? It's kind of a risk using Cryogonal, which is too big for me to use it. It's better left to RU where spinners are even worse than in UU.

 

[BlankZero]

Been abusing the set in the OP of:

Timid: 252 HP, 252 Spe, 4 SpA (Life Orb)
~Ice Beam
~Hidden Power Ground
~Rapid Spin
~Recover

Wrecks Flygon and Crobat completely. No one expects a fast Cyro :D

ETA: It does VERY well against Frosslass too, assuming no Cursed Body Hax >.<