Cubone (QC 2/3) [rejected]

[JEFLIV]

Overview
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Cubone is a very potent physical sweeper and tank for one reason: its signature item, Thick Club. This item doubles its base 50 attack, allowing Cubone to smash entire teams if given the chance. Cubone's great coverage movepool gives it perfect coverage, and Rock Head permits it to spam Double-Edge with no recoil damage. Cubone's excellent base 95 Defense also gives it very good opportunities to switch in and shrug off a hit, and set up with a Swords Dance while the opponent switches. Of course, Cubone has drawbacks as well as assets. Its poor maximum 14 Speed due to an abysmal base 35 Speed puts it at risk of being revenge killed, and its awful Special Defense makes it very easy to take out with a special attack. Another issue s the ever-present Knock Off, which effectively renders Cubone useless by removing its item. Cubone is overall a very powerful offensive and defensive force physically, but needs to be wary of special threats and being revenge killed.

Gone Clubbin'
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name: Gone Clubbin'
move 1: Earthquake
move 2: Fire Punch / Rock Slide
move 3: Knock Off
move 4: Double-Edge
ability: Rock Head
item: Thick Club
evs: 36 HP / 196 Atk / 36 SpD / 236 Spe
nature: Jolly

Moves
========
Earthquake is a mandatory STAB on this set, allowing Cubone to net super-effective damage on a number of threats and hit neutral foes with an effective 150 base power coming off a doubled base 50 Attack due to the Thick Club. Rock Slide and Fire Punch are both very good coverage options, allowing for powerful damage as well as super-effective hits. Knock Off is another excellent option, which hits Ghost- and Psychic-types for super-effective damage and removes enemy items. Double-Edge can be used in the final slot to net neutral damage on everything that resists Ground as well as not facing recoil due to Rock Head. It also offers almost perfect coverage on all of Ground's resists.
Set Details
========
This EV spread helps Cubone deal immense damage while taking hits just a little bit better than usual. The Speed boost allows it to outspeed other base 35s and base 40s with negative natures.
Thick Club is really the only reason Cubone is viable, and Cubone should never be used without it. Cubone misses its use of other items, such as the Berry Juice and the Eviolite, but Thick Club is just too powerful to pass up on any Cubone.

The Jolly nature assists Cubone in Speed at no cost to itself. Rock Head is used to prevent damage from Double-Edge, turning the move into a base 120 with no drawbacks. Cubone's other abilities are also helpful, and Battle Armor can also be used if Cubone is not carrying Double-Edge.
Usage Tips
========
Cubone benefits greatly from a Baton Pass chain, and especially needs help with Speed. A Jolly nature could be used with Sticky Web support from Surskit or Spinarak to achieve the same ends.
Cubone is a very powerful offensive Ground-type, and fills this niche on any team that needs it. Cubone can switch in to a number of common pokemon, including Magnemite and the many Rock-types.
Team Options
========
Cubone benefits greatly from being at the end of a Baton Pass chain, as it can make good use of stat boosts. The most pertinent stat for Cubone to boost is Speed, because its pitiful max 14 Speed makes it liable to being revenge killed. Agility and Flame Charge are both helpful moves to be Passed, as they both increase Speed and Flame Charge softens up the opponent for Cubone to sweep. A notable teammate is Torchic, who can guarantee a +2 to the stat of Cubone's choice and +1 to Speed because of Speed Boost and Torchic's excellent boosting movepool.

An offensive Ice-, Electric-, or Rock-type should be used to counter Flying-types, which are immune to Earthquake. Magnemite comes to mind, as does Voltorb due to its high Speed, which complements Cubone's poor Speed nicely. Specially defensive tanks and walls should be used to counter special attackers, who destroy Cubone. Anything with a resistance to Ice, Ground or Grass is welcome.

Another excellent teammate is Pawniard, who is capable of switching into Bronzor and Snover, two common checks for Cubone. It can also utilize Knock Off to eliminate Eviolites and Berry Juices to facilitate Cubone's sweep attempt.

Fletchling is another very cool teammate, landing a priority Tailwind and dying to allow Cubone to switch in for free, which can work effectively with Belly Drum. Cubone's Grass-type checks are also destroyed by Fletchling's Flying-type STAB.
Other Options
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A physically defensive set could be attempted utilizing Cubone's great base 95 Defense, but Cubone is generally outclassed in this role. Rock Slide is useful to counter Flying-types, but its low base power is problematic. Rock Tomb could also be used as a Rock-type attack, and it comes with a definite Speed drop to the opponent, always useful. These moves are innacurate, however, and Cubone doesn't really have any moveslots to spare. Iron Head is another option instead of Fire Punch, giving Cubone helpful coverage on the powerful new Fairy-types, as well as not forfeiting a chance to beat Cubone's Ice-type nemeses.

An EV spread of 196 HP / 196 Atk / 36 SpD / 76 Spe allows Cubone to reach a tremendous 22 Speed at +2 with Adamant, outspeeding the vast majority of the unboosted metagame. With Jolly, Cubone even outspeeds +1 Carvahna and Scarf Chinchou, hitting the former for a 2HKO and the latter for an OHKO. Speed also comes into play with a Trick Room sweeper set, as Cubone is one of very few physically effective LC TR sweepers.

There's not much else Cubone can do. Fire Punch is a coverage option, which notably hits Grass- and Bug-types with resistances to Ground. Bonemerang can nail Sturdy users, Substitutes, and Focus Sashes. Some sets can forfeit a boosting move for the opportunity to run two coverage moves, but this works exclusively with Baton Pass support.
Checks & Counters
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**Misdreavus and other bulky Ghost-types**: These are hard counters to Cubone, and usually force it to switch out. A Dark-type should be used with Cubone solely to counter them.

**Bronzor**: Bronzor resists all of Cubone's common attacks save Knock Off and can deal great damage to it. It also can nail Cubone with Toxic and usually forces a switch.

**Flying-types and Levitate users, especially Poison-types**: Immune to Eartqhuake, Cubone's best attack, these wall Cubone to the point of being hard checks unless Cubone is carrying Rock Slide. Poison-types with Levitate and Zubat resist both Earthquake and Play Rough (which a teammate might be carrying) , and Gastly carries this even farther with immunity to Double-Edge.

**Knock Off**: Knock Off stops Cubone in its tracks by effectively halving its Attack. Unless Cubone has received an Agility Baton Pass, this generally happens before it can even attack due to its low Speed.

**Special vulnerability and lack of defensive items**: Cubone has very low special defense, which destroys it when it comes up against fast, powerful special attackers. It also needs Thick Club to be useful, which cuts away its use of Eviolite and Berry Juice.

 

[JEFLIV]

Still a WIP, will add more info fortwith.

 

[ryan]

You should mention in the Overview that the prevalence of Knock Off and not being able to hold Eviolite or Berry Juice really holds Cubone back a ton.

Also Skull Bash is awful and leaves Cubone vulnerable to a free switch into its best counter, Misdreavus. Plus, like I said, no Eviolite or Berry Juice really compromises its bulk, meaning that you'll be hard-pressed to live for a turn while you're waiting to use Skull Bash and another while you attack.

I'd also mention using a Jolly Nature alongside Sticky Web. With a Jolly Nature, you hit 14 Speed, which is enough to outrun 19 Speed Pokemon at -1 Speed, and you still hit a whopping 28 Attack thanks to Thick Club. This is probably about the only way that Cubone can reliably sweep the opponent tbh, but it does sound really fun/usable.

 

[JEFLIV]

You should mention in the Overview that the prevalence of Knock Off and not being able to hold Eviolite or Berry Juice really holds Cubone back a ton.

Also Skull Bash is awful and leaves Cubone vulnerable to a free switch into its best counter, Misdreavus. Plus, like I said, no Eviolite or Berry Juice really compromises its bulk, meaning that you'll be hard-pressed to live for a turn while you're waiting to use Skull Bash and another while you attack.

I'd also mention using a Jolly Nature alongside Sticky Web. With a Jolly Nature, you hit 14 Speed, which is enough to outrun 19 Speed Pokemon at -1 Speed, and you still hit a whopping 28 Attack thanks to Thick Club. This is probably about the only way that Cubone can reliably sweep the opponent tbh, but it does sound really fun/usable.

Can do. Thanks!

 

[Goddess Briyella]

• Change the EV spread to 236 Spd / 196 Atk / 36 SDef / 36 HP and change the nature to Jolly. 36 EVs in Defense are not enough to raise a stat point and are therefore a waste. 236 Speed EVs and Jolly nature are required to hit a Speed stat of 14, which will allow Cubone to outspeed mons that have 19 Speed after Sticky Web's Speed drop, as Treecko mentioned, though a lot of the important 19ers you'd want to slow down with Sticky Web are immune to it (Misdreavus, Murkrow, Taillow, Gligar, etc.), so it shouldn't be over-glorified in the set description, but do mention it.

• Iron Head should be replaced with Play Rough. Ground/Fairy has perfect coverage (except against Koffing and Bronzor) in LC. Also, being able to hit Dark-types and Fighting-types super effectively provides better coverage, while a super effective Iron Head only does slightly more to Fairy-types than a neutral Earthquake, which already hits most things that resist Play Rough for super effective damage, and no Fairy-types in LC are immune to Ground with Cottonee being the only one to resist it.

• If you're using Rock Head as the ability, Double-Edge should be the decisive move in the final slot and doesn't need slashes, as it provides a powerful 120 base power move with good neutral coverage without the recoil and is therefore superior to Return, which maxes out at only 102 base power.

QC 1/3

 

[JEFLIV]

• Change the EV spread to 236 Spd / 196 Atk / 36 SDef / 36 HP and change the nature to Jolly. 36 EVs in Defense are not enough to raise a stat point and are therefore a waste. 236 Speed EVs and Jolly nature are required to hit a Speed stat of 14, which will allow Cubone to outspeed mons that have 19 Speed after Sticky Web's Speed drop, as Treecko mentioned, though a lot of the important 19ers you'd want to slow down with Sticky Web are immune to it (Misdreavus, Murkrow, Taillow, Gligar, etc.), so it shouldn't be over-glorified in the set description, but do mention it.

• Iron Head should be replaced with Play Rough. Ground/Fairy has perfect coverage (except against Koffing and Bronzor) in LC. Also, being able to hit Dark-types and Fighting-types super effectively provides better coverage, while a super effective Iron Head only does slightly more to Fairy-types than a neutral Earthquake, which already hits most things that resist Play Rough for super effective damage, and no Fairy-types in LC are immune to Ground with Cottonee being the only one to resist it.

• If you're using Rock Head as the ability, Double-Edge should be the decisive move in the final slot and doesn't need slashes, as it provides a powerful 120 base power move with good neutral coverage without the recoil and is therefore superior to Return, which maxes out at only 102 base power.

QC 1/3

Sure. Does Cubone get Play Rough?
EDIT: No, it doesn't.

 

[Ray Jay]

• Don't think Cubone's really fast enough to make good use of Retaliate, so I'd recommend cutting down to just Double Edge with Rock Head as ability to remove some extra slashes.
• Set looks good, but make sure it's like this: 36 HP / 196 Atk / 36 SpD / 236 Spe. Also don't see too much reason to keep Adamant in there as a slash at all when Jolly seems pretty necessary. Also on this note make sure you have spaces between your slashes (Double Edge / Retaliate rather than Double Edge/Retaliate).
• Mention the best way to counter Cubone is to take advantage of the fact that it is frail because it lacks Eviolite or Berry Juice and also very slow
• Play Rough is indeed an egg move this generation so make sure to put it in there over Iron Head

QC 2/3

 

[DTC]

• Singular access to Thick Club gives it a huge base 100 attack

Please don't say this in the writeup. For one, 50 base Attack that is doubled would not be equal to 100 base Attack; it would be equal to much higher than that. Secondly, whatever its effective base stat is, it would be the base stat with no item boost, which makes it significantly less impressive. That tidbit is just very misleading in general. It'd be much easier to say "Cubone is extremely strong". If you really want to, you could say it has 28 Attack, as that's much more appropriate to visualize than "~180 base Attack".

Also go a bit more indepth in c&c; talk about how Cubone is very easy to revenge because it only has 14 Speed, very frail on the special side, and no Berry Juice / Eviolite to back it up.

 

[JEFLIV]

Will write up now.

 

[Arkian]

Actually, you have to get three QC checks before writing it up when doing an LC analysis JEFLIV :)

Edit: Nvm, it looks like you've already written it up :< Well whatever, just remember this for future analyses though!

 

[JEFLIV]

Actually, you have to get three QC checks before writing it up when doing an LC analysis JEFLIV :)

Edit: Nvm, it looks like you've already written it up :< Well whatever, just remember this for future analyses though!

Oh, sorry.

 

[Goddess Briyella]

JEFLIV, we meant Iron Head doesn't need to be on the set at all. It should not share a slash with Play Rough and should be moved to Other Options.

 

[JEFLIV]

JEFLIV, we meant Iron Head doesn't need to be on the set at all. It should not share a slash with Play Rough and should be moved to Other Options.

Sure, can do. Would you mind checking out my Remoraid analysis? It hasn't even been commented on once.

 

[Goddess Briyella]

I'll give it a look. Good job on this one.

Keep in mind you'll need 3 QC approvals before you write.

 

[ryan]

JEFLIV

Overview
- You mention its low Speed with "maximum base 14 Speed." This implies it has a base 14 Speed stat. Instead, just say something along the lines of "its low base Speed which caps out at 14 max."
- The last sentence can be cut because it's true for literally every Pokemon.
- Mention somewhere that Knock Off being on almost every team hinders Cubone a ton. If it loses its item, it becomes fairly worthless.

Moves
- You mention that Cubone has a lot of opportunities to set up because of its high Defense, but without Eviolite or even Berry Juice to help it along the way, its Defense isn't all that great. To put it into perspective, it has very slightly higher bulk than an Eviolite Bunnelby without any investment. I'd just change this to reflect that it has good enough bulk to set up on a weaker attacker.
- Play Rough does not give Cubone perfect coverage. Ground and Fairy coverage misses out on Bronzor, Zubat, Koffing, and Gastly in LC. Add in Double-Edge, and you still miss out on two of those. Just state that it gives Cubone great coverage. If you want to, you can specifically mention what it misses out on.

Usage Tips
- Joltik doesn't learn Sticky Web, so cut that.
- You can also mention Sewaddle as a Sticky Web user, as it can take both Water- and Grass-type hits for Cubone.
- The rest of your usage tips are just facts about Cubone and don't actually suggest readers how they should use it on a team. Good things to talk about include the different Pokemon that Cubone can set up on, when it should attempt a sweep, how to get it into the game safely, etc.

Team Options
- The only team option you suggest is Venipede, which is a horrible team option anyways because it doesn't even learn Baton Pass. You can talk about Torchic and Sticky Web users to remedy Cubone's Speed issue. Mention that Pawniard can easily switch into Snover, an enormous threat to Cubone, and Bronzor, one of the few Pokemon that can wall Cubone with ease, and spam Knock Off to make Cubone's attempt to sweep much easier. You can also make a note of Mantyke, as Cubone covers its Electric weakness while Mantyke can come in on pretty much every Water-, Grass-, and Ice-type attack. One of the only Pokemon of these types that it fears is Chinchou, which won't want to switch into Cubone anyways.

Other Options
- Fire Punch is way better on Cubone than Iron Head. When you talk about Fire Punch, don't compare it to Iron Head at all.
- Mention Bonemerang to break Sturdy/Substitutes.
- Mention Knock Off, which nails Bronzor and Slowpoke and is just generally a fantastic move.

Checks and Counters
- Taunt should absolutely not be listed as the first check/counter or at all, really. Taunt prevents team supporters from Baton Passing it boosts and keeps it from using Swords Dance, but that doesn't actually stop Cubone. In fact, the only Taunt user that would really want to Taunt Cubone itself is Misdreavus, which would still rather just use Will-O-Wisp. This point should be cut.
- The order of this does not truly represent how to check and counter Cubone. It should be: Misdreavus, Bronzor, Levitating Poison-types (Gastly, Koffing, and Zubat), Knock Off, Fast Special Attackers. I might be missing something, but that should be good for now at least.

 

[Darkamber8828]

Why don't you run Knock Off over Double Edge? It's the best move in Little Cup for removing Berry Juices and Eviolites, and nails Bronzor and Gastly.

+2 196 Atk Thick Club Cubone Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 196 HP / 236+ Def Koffing: 19-23 (82.6 - 100%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
196 Atk Thick Club Cubone Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 196 HP / 236+ Def Koffing: 10-12 (43.4 - 52.1%) -- 80.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
196 Atk Thick Club Cubone Knock Off vs. 196 HP / 236+ Def Koffing: 7-9 (30.4 - 39.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 196 Atk Thick Club Cubone Knock Off vs. 196 HP / 236+ Def Koffing: 13-16 (56.5 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Which isn't good, but if you Knock Off it off on the switch (or it just takes two Stealth Rock switches), you can OHKO it all the time.

+2 196 Atk Thick Club Cubone Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 196 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Zubat: 25-30 (108.6 - 130.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

heh

 

[Expulso]

Joltik doesn't learn Sticky Web.

 

[JEFLIV]

Will do. Thanks for everyone's input.

 

[unitard]

Cubone's my favorite pokemon, so I've been using it a bit just for fun, and I have a couple comments about it.

One thing you should definitely include: Play Rough is an egg move this generation, while Knock Off (and Fire Punch/ThunderPunch) can only be learned via move tutor in earlier games, so they are illegal on the same set.

I personally think Knock Off is good enough that it should be slashed with Play Rough (I actually think Knock Off's the better option). Ground/Normal/Fairy is good coverage, but Ground/Normal/Dark is completely unresisted, and Knock Off lets you really hit some troublesome pokes hard (particularly Bronzor, Misdreavus, and Gastly). Plus Fighting types are hit pretty hard by Earthquake/Bonemerang anyway.

Also, I would consider slashing Swords Dance with something else. Because Cubone can't use Berry Juice and has no priority, it usually can't afford to waste turns setting up. Plus I think one of Cubone's biggest selling points is that it can hit so hard without boosting its Attack (I'm fairly certain 30 is the highest unboosted Attack in all of Little Cup). If you really want a boosting move, I'd recommend Power-Up Punch instead. That way you can boost your attack (to an enormous 45 or 42, depending on nature) without necessarily leaving yourself vulnerable. If you don't mind leaving out a boosting move, I think Rock Slide/ThunderPunch is better for the extra coverage.

With the EV spread you have listed, the nature should always be Jolly (Adamant shouldn't be slashed). The EV spread listed is good for Sticky Web, but I personally prefer a spread of 196 HP / 196 Atk / 36 SDef / 76 Spd with Baton Pass. It gets you to 22 Speed with an Agility/two Speed Boosts, and the extra bulk really helps. I use Adamant (getting to 30 helps net you a couple extra KOs), but with Jolly, +2 Cubone Speed ties with +1 Carvanha and Scarf Chinchou, so it could be worth using.

And finally, two teammate suggestions: I've been using Swords Dance Fletchling with Tailwind. Get off a priority Tailwind just before you die, and you can bring in Cubone for free (which is hugely important) and destroy things for the next few turns. Cubone (especially with Knock Off) also has good offensive synergy with Bunnelby. The two have similar counters, so you can take them out or wear them down with Cubone and then sweep with Bunnelby.

 

[JEFLIV]

Cubone's my favorite pokemon, so I've been using it a bit just for fun, and I have a couple comments about it.

One thing you should definitely include: Play Rough is an egg move this generation, while Knock Off (and Fire Punch/ThunderPunch) can only be learned via move tutor in earlier games, so they are illegal on the same set.

I personally think Knock Off is good enough that it should be slashed with Play Rough (I actually think Knock Off's the better option). Ground/Normal/Fairy is good coverage, but Ground/Normal/Dark is completely unresisted, and Knock Off lets you really hit some troublesome pokes hard (particularly Bronzor, Misdreavus, and Gastly). Plus Fighting types are hit pretty hard by Earthquake/Bonemerang anyway.

Also, I would consider slashing Swords Dance with something else. Because Cubone can't use Berry Juice and has no priority, it usually can't afford to waste turns setting up. Plus I think one of Cubone's biggest selling points is that it can hit so hard without boosting its Attack (I'm fairly certain 30 is the highest unboosted Attack in all of Little Cup). If you really want a boosting move, I'd recommend Power-Up Punch instead. That way you can boost your attack (to an enormous 45 or 42, depending on nature) without necessarily leaving yourself vulnerable. If you don't mind leaving out a boosting move, I think Rock Slide/ThunderPunch is better for the extra coverage.

With the EV spread you have listed, the nature should always be Jolly (Adamant shouldn't be slashed). The EV spread listed is good for Sticky Web, but I personally prefer a spread of 196 HP / 196 Atk / 36 SDef / 76 Spd with Baton Pass. It gets you to 22 Speed with an Agility/two Speed Boosts, and the extra bulk really helps. I use Adamant (getting to 30 helps net you a couple extra KOs), but with Jolly, +2 Cubone Speed ties with +1 Carvanha and Scarf Chinchou, so it could be worth using.

And finally, two teammate suggestions: I've been using Swords Dance Fletchling with Tailwind. Get off a priority Tailwind just before you die, and you can bring in Cubone for free (which is hugely important) and destroy things for the next few turns. Cubone (especially with Knock Off) also has good offensive synergy with Bunnelby. The two have similar counters, so you can take them out or wear them down with Cubone and then sweep with Bunnelby.

Oh, I didn't realize about the moves thing. Your EV spread will be added to Other Options.

 

[Unowninator]

It can't learn Play Rough.

 

[Darkamber8828]

bulbapedia and serebii don't list play rough as an egg move

pokemondb does in http://pokemondb.net/pokedex/cubone

but in http://pokemondb.net/pokedex/cubone/egg it doesn't list any pokemon that can breed with cubone to learn play rough

:|

 

[unitard]

Yeah, I recently found this out when I was trying to breed a Cubone in Pokemon Y. It seems like PS! (and I guess pokemondb) gave Cubone Play Rough as an egg move accidentally when they were putting it in for Cubchoo.

 

[JEFLIV]

I thought it couldn't get play rough too, but Ray Jay confirmed it does.

 

[Unowninator]

I thought it couldn't get play rough too, but Ray Jay confirmed it does.

Did he prove it with a picture?