D/P Moltres

Several months ago I discussed a Scarf Moltres lead in Stark Mountain. I battle tested it again today and I'm again surprised to see that it still works out pretty well.

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Scarf-Lead Moltres.
Modest @ 252 Sp. Atk, 216 Speed, 40 Defense
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U-Turn
Will o Wisp
Overheat
Air Slash

This Moltres is designed to OHKO as many typical leads as possible, while still having somewhat of a plan for the others. Most leads are OHKOed by Overheat, and if not then they are OHKOed by Air Slash. Do not fear speedy leads like Gengar or Deoxys-S: Moltres is bulky enough even with 0 Sp. Def EVs to take a Scarf Gengar's or a Life Orb Deoxys-S T-Bolt and still deliver an OHKO in the form of Overheat. All other Gengar (LO, Specs, etc. ) are outsped by Scarf Moltres. The list of common lead Pokemon that are OHKOed by Overheat or Air Slash include Infernape, Jolteon, Azelf, Yanmega, Bronzong, Metagross, Roserade, Forretress, Crobat, Ninjask, Ambipom, Alakazam, Celebi, Skarmory, Weavile, Abomasnow ... the list goes on and on.

However, Moltres gets far from perfect coverage from Fire/Flying. Tyranitar, Salamence, Swampert, Hippowdon, Zapdos, Aerodactyl, and Gyarados are some popular leads that are not OHKOed by Overheat or Air Slash. This is where Will o Wisp comes in. Few pokemon like having their attack cut in half for the rest of the match, and Moltres is bulky enough to survive a Stone Edge from Salamence, Swampert, Hippowdon, or Gyarados if they are burned. All bets are off if they use a choice item however, and Salamence will always OHKO with Specs Draco Meteor. Moltres is bulky enough to take on Swampert and Gyarados 1v1 and win if Air Slash flinches them, or if Gyarados or Swampert gets greedy with Taunt and Dragon Dance or Stealth Rocks. Waterfall from either does not KO. Similarly, you can punish T-Tar or Salamence with Will o Wisp, but even when burned both possess the ability to OHKO Moltres. The option is open however if you predict a greedy opponent who dragon dances, subs, or taunts on the first turn expecting you to switch out. Both Zapdos and Aerodactyl OHKO Moltres even when burned. Zapdos doesn't care about the status and Aerodactyl would have done its job, so just U-Turn out.

As Will o Wisp punishes a greedy opponent, you have a strategy to punish conservative ones. Should there be a pokemon who is proned to be OHKOed by Moltres, you can U-Turn out and predict their switch. U-Turn attacks after the opponent switches out, so you get to see who they switch to before comming in with your counter. U-Turning Moltres as Heatran, or T-Tar comes in nearly guarentees an early victory if you switch into Dugtrio. But if the opponent doesn't switch in but instead attacks you, you can switch to a wall to absorb the attack instead. U-Turn delays the decision until you have more information. Take advantage of this fact.

Finally, Scarf Moltres is not useless in the mid/late game. Keep the Stealth Rocks off and Moltres will continue to be useful as a generic ground, fighting, bug, and grass resist and late game Sp. Sweeper with Scarfed Air Slashes.

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Now, the EVs are almost completely arbitrary. They are practically only there to outrun scarf Heracross and the base 130 gang... and all other EVs were dumped into Defense to help as a later game Mixape, Heracross or Breloom counter. So I'm pretty sure some tweeking can be done with those. Aside from that, I'd like to just put this set out there again for criticisms / comments before I contribute it to the SCMS. It is a reletively large edit afterall.
 

obi

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I would suspect that Hidden Power Ground would be more effective than Air Slash.
 
Well, you deal with Heatran by predicting the switch with U-Turn and going to someone else. HP Ground doesen't help against anything I listed as a potential problem (Tyranitar, Salamence, Swampert, Hippowdon, Zapdos, and Gyarados). HP Ice is the only one that can have a chance at OHKOing Salamence, so maybe HP Ice would be good. But Air Slash is your bet against Infernape and is also useful for late game sweeps. (30% Flinch + Scarf is better than a turn of Double Team)

EDIT: Air Slash KOs Machamp with greater chance than Overheat. Then again, Machamp leads are kinda uncommon...
 
I've used this as well, and the results were just amazing. It has great synergy with Dugtrio, nearly a third of the time I'd get an instant 6-5 lead. Though CBTar leads give it trouble, if you Will-o-Wisp while they Stone edge you are killed, if you U-turn while they Pursuit you are damage and can die next switch-in if Stealth Rocks go up.

Though not really worth noting, but this works even better on Doug's server, as it makes a great Revenakh/Syclant counter.
 
Should you mention on the dugtrio strategy that you should watch out for scarftran as once you u-turn to dugtrio he will outspeed him?

Anyway it looks like a good set although a lot like the specs set with the item changed. However that gives it a whole new strategy so it does deserve its own analysis. Just wondering about the evs as 216 brings you to 413 speed. Anything that you are specifically trying out outspeed with that speed?
 
Does Aerodactyl, like Zapdos, counter Moltres? I mean, even after W-o-w, Life Orb/CBand Stone Edge can still 1hko it.

It also gets a Sandstorm boost in it's Special Defense.

Just a consideration.
 
Good point, however you won't have Sandstorm boost against a Lead Moltres. Fortunately, you still U-Turn out in time unless it is a Scarf Aero. I'll note that in there.

And the speed EVs to my calculation give me 405 speed, which is slightly faster than scarf heracross (useful to counter them in the late game).
 
Good to note that Aerodactyl can be a lead in 2v2 with Hippowdon

(Aerodactyl is fast, gets STAB Flinch Rock Slide, and is immune to Hippowdon's STAB Earthquake, while getting a Sandstorm boost).


Otheriwse for 1v1, the foe could (as any normal counter does switch in) switch out their Hippowdown lead (whom as you did say can't do much to Moltres) and send in Aerodactyl to take an ineffective Overheat, and Roost off the damage, while threatening a Stone Edge, then it would recieve the Sandstorm boost within the first turn.
 
Well lots of things counter this Moltres. (Standards like Blissey or other Bulky Waters comes to note). But the point is not to be uncounterable, but simply to get a lead advantage over your opponent (IE: force a switch or force a kill).

A well timed U-Turn on the Hippowdon would allow a quick and easy switch to a counter should it want to switch out to Aero. But thats more of a prediction thing.
 
yep, i've tried this out and it really works well. it's on one of my main teams :) . the weak link in its moveset i believe is WOW. i just don't feel comfortable staying in with moltres against threats such as gyara, garchomp, mence etc. i think it would be good to replace WOW with HP ice or ground.
 
Salamence and T-Tar... I understand (with the ability to OHKO even when burned). However, Gyarados cannot KO Moltres when burned, even when using Stone Edge. Without a CB or LO, Garchomp cannot KO Moltres with Stone Edge either. Even with a Life Orb, Garchomp only has a ~40% chance of KOing Moltres when Burned (80% chance of hit, ~50% chance to actually KO if Moltres is hit).

Bulky Gyara Waterfall 3-hit KOs this Moltres when Burned. If I had leftovers instead of Scarf, it would be a 4-hit KO. Thats only with 40 EVs in Defense mind you... Moltres's defenses are pretty bulky and WoW is designed to take advantage of this fact. According to SkarmCents... Moltres's defense rating is approxamately 85% of a Skarmory.

Don't worry about staying in: Moltres is more than bulky enough to make due with WoW.
 
Salamence and T-Tar... I understand (with the ability to OHKO even when burned). However, Gyarados cannot KO Moltres when burned, even when using Stone Edge. Without a CB or LO, Garchomp cannot KO Moltres with Stone Edge either. Even with a Life Orb, Garchomp only has a ~40% chance of KOing Moltres when Burned (80% chance of hit, ~50% chance to actually KO if Moltres is hit).

Bulky Gyara Waterfall 3-hit KOs this Moltres when Burned. If I had leftovers instead of Scarf, it would be a 4-hit KO. Thats only with 40 EVs in Defense mind you... Moltres's defenses are pretty bulky and WoW is designed to take advantage of this fact. According to SkarmCents... Moltres's defense rating is approxamately 85% of a Skarmory.

Don't worry about staying in: Moltres is more than bulky enough to make due with WoW.
i can agree with that, but that bad accuracy plays a part in it too. maybe i'll use this thing more and be more gutsy with WOW and see how that works out :).
 
Factor in its miss rate, but also it's 12.5 Critical Hit rate. That will help cancel out some of the % lost from missing.
 

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