Its also Faster and has Soul Dew which makes Choice Specs pointless
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D/P tiers. (READ 1st and 2nd POST)
- Thread starter Surgo
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Well, that's essentially what I was getting at, the main thing being that because of the brokenness of draco meteor, Blissey is the only real counter (I guess Empoleon is one also, but the lack of a real recovery move hurts a lot). I mean, Blissey has that old thing going for it, "it essentially resists all special attacks." Basically as far as I can see, by far the most effective strategy for dealing with specsmence beyond the normal prediction stuff that goes with choice items is to put out stealthrock and wall it with Blissey so it can't keep coming in repeatedly. The reason why I see some legitimacy to the specsmence complaint is that this might "overcentralize the metagame," whatever that really means.
Main reason I don't exactly buy into it is that Blissey is already on 95% of teams anyway, most will also have a steel type, and that having a straight up perfect counter is not all there is to it anyway, especially in a game like D/P where one Pokemon can so easily set up for a sweep if the opponent doesn't play it careful enough. But it does seem more constricting than anything else getting suggested for ubers like TTar or especially Celebi.
I feel this point needs to be highlighted again for a lot of people. Just because a pokemon isn't OU doesn't mean you can't use it as such. This is not the end all be all of what pokemon you can and can not use in metagames besides the Uber list. Everything else is fair game in standard play unless someone is hosting a tournament or something saying otherwise.
My experience with Tyranitar is that it's good but NOT uncounterable. Using a team I feel that is rather weak to Tyranitar or should I say lacks sufficient counters from my personal perspective it can still be dealt with. I lost to a Dragon Dance Tyranitar yesterday not because it was overly strong but because I personally as a battler made the wrong move which put me in a corner. I really do think that as the game stables a bit more people will find more ways of dealing with it. It's no more of a monstrosity than it was in Advance. People are just going to have to get used to the fact that there are some pokemon that are NOT directly countered by another and that the whole purpose of having a TEAM is to use more than one pokemon to defeat your opponent's pokemon. This applies not only to the offensive side of the game but also the defensive. I also think with the nature of the game and just how many threats and options there are as well as how powerful some may seem that people are going to have to live with the fact that your record is most likely going to be floating around .500 and not around .900.
Just on paper Manaphy looks uber to me and I have yet to face one in combat but I'm sure it could give anyone issues. I really don't have too much else to add to that at the moment because I lack the experience with it to make that call.
I'd really love to go into a rant about why Blissey isn't uber but I'll refrain.
I'm not exactly sure I agree with this, particularly concerning Manaphy’s tier assignment. Manaphy’s ability to tail glow up and simply heal off the damage with a one-turn hydration rest is what threatens to make this pokemon too threatening for the OU metagame. In that case, why don’t we simply make rest illegal on Manaphy?
Sure, it still has tail glow, and sure, it would still be a powerful sweeper in OU that would need to countered, but it isn’t like competitive pokemon hasn’t dealt with similarly powerful sweepers in the past. Those of you who were around even for Advance remember how quickly Raikou, with its capacity to Calm Mind up and sweep, became a nearly invincible threat. Many of you are complaining about the prospect of having to include one of a small number of pokemon who are actually capable of countering Manaphy on your team. In advance, Raikou and even Blissey were difficult to oppose as well, but we all understood the importance of constructing a team capable of incapacitating these pokemon.
In some ways, Manaphy is reminiscent of Suicune or Curselax last generation, because of their shared ability to take a few hits while setting up to sweep, and then resting off the damage. The major difference here is that, unlike Manaphy, Curselax and Suicune were forced to sleep through a full rest. It should be noted, however, that their curses and calm minds, respectively, made it easier for the latter two pokemon to sponge hits.
So here goes: I propose that we make the move Rain Dance anywhere on a team mutually exclusive with a resting Manaphy. It’s not complicated, but I believe that this simple restriction can cut Manaphy down to OU size.
I really never understood why Manaphy is getting the ban hammer... All reasons have been stated by everyone else, 4 move set syndrome..
Celebi? Uber? l o l wut
I think L and E deoxys should be tested as well..
Celebi? Uber? l o l wut
I think L and E deoxys should be tested as well..
No offense, but that's just stupid...you can't limit the use of a move just tomake a potent uber OU
Have you read absolutely nothing and skimmed only what interested you?
Hydration Rest isn't even the most noteworthy problem of Manaphy. The standard set that threatens most doesn't even have Rest on it.
Also your suggestion of banning a single move on a single pokemon is ridiculous at best.
With that said lets ban Salamence from having Draco Meteor! Its silly...
The rain dance set is not even Manaphy's best set
Unfortunately, “potency” in an environment is not the driving force behind tier assignments. Rather, it’s the exact opposite. As many of the mods have stressed, tier assignments are meant to exclude pokemon only when they are too game-breaking for a certain tier. If a small restriction is enough to make Manaphy a solid fit for the OU tier, why not? There were similar discussions in advance regarding the potential use of non-soul dew latios and latias in the OU environment.
EDIT: and i'm not talking about banning rain dance on manaphy. I'm talking about making rain dance anywhere on a team mutually exclusive with rest on manaphy. You may be right, and this may be a bad idea. But I appreciate your response.
EDIT: and i'm not talking about banning rain dance on manaphy. I'm talking about making rain dance anywhere on a team mutually exclusive with rest on manaphy. You may be right, and this may be a bad idea. But I appreciate your response.
I understand Mew is being tested in 386 standard play and that several players want him to remain legal there. Yeah ok, Nasty Plot/Swords Dance+Baton Pass is really vicious coming from something with 100 base stats all-around, and Mew has a ridiculous number of other options that he can use in standards. But one of the main arguments for Mew being allowed in 386 standard, to my understanding, is that its typing doesn't allow it to switch in without taking a big chunk of damage, which is only more of a problem in DP due to the much more offensive metagame, physical pursuit, etc. In my opinion there should be at least a little consideration here, especially if Celebi ends up standard.
So is there potential that Mew will be tested in standard DP play at some point? Not that I really expect it to become standard all that much, but people are suggesting Deoxys-E of all things to potentially go up for testing so hey.
So is there potential that Mew will be tested in standard DP play at some point? Not that I really expect it to become standard all that much, but people are suggesting Deoxys-E of all things to potentially go up for testing so hey.
Its all well and good saying rain dance and rest for manaphy should be banned, but people are completly missing the point. Tail glow/Grass Knot/Surf/Ice beam is a bigger threat then any Manaphy set with Hydrarest, i think anyone who has even played d/p slightly competitive will attest to this.
What kind of argument is that, though, that blissey is already on the majority of teams? If anything, that enhances the argument that specs mence overcentralizes the metagame. Most steel types need to be specifically EVed to not take a massive amount of damage from DM, even with their resist.
Anyway, of the "debatable ubers" I really don't think celebi got that much better to deserve banning. It gained more support options, but that's all they are - options. It already suffered from four moveslot syndrome not being able to use everything it wanted to. Sure, it's a pain to take down, but with all of its weaknesses it's certainly easier to take down than some of the pokes currently on the OU tier. It lost a lot of potential for a physical set, losing both shadow ball and hp:fighting, and on the special side all it gained is a stronger grass stab, shadow ball, and lol charge beam.
edit: wow this topic moves fast
Thanks for bringing that up. If that's the case, and the consensus is that that set is too game-breaking for the OU metagame, then Manaphy should be uber. Some previous posters have brought up hydrarest, and my only point was that a small restriction would make the second set beatable enough for OU.
I don't think I personally have the experience to comment adequately on the whole Uber/OU debate, but there is one thing I have noticed regarding Tyranitar. It seems like most are looking at him mostly in a vacuum; i.e. his monstrous special defense as a result of sandstream and his other excellent stats.
However, using tyranitar either requires a team more or less centered around its sandstream ability (which obviously offers less versatility and unpredictability) with the alternative being your own non-resistant pokemon have their leftovers recovery negated. This is even more pertinent for pokemon holding choice items or life orb. True, the same idea also holds true for the opponent of tyranitar, but the fact that he would hurt a majority of your own team (unless you did decide to build a team around him) should factor into the discussion.
However, using tyranitar either requires a team more or less centered around its sandstream ability (which obviously offers less versatility and unpredictability) with the alternative being your own non-resistant pokemon have their leftovers recovery negated. This is even more pertinent for pokemon holding choice items or life orb. True, the same idea also holds true for the opponent of tyranitar, but the fact that he would hurt a majority of your own team (unless you did decide to build a team around him) should factor into the discussion.
Mew doesn't have Nasty Plot or Baton Pass in Advance which does help its cause there. I think people are a little more hesitant to allow it here in DP because of the fact that your spare two moves can be used to counter anything that uses Roar/WW/Haze because Mew has those options. It can essentially counter the counters of its specialized set. Celebi isn't the same threat because it lacks the key moves to counter something like Skarmory that would come in to pseudo-haze it. Celebi also can't boost either attacking stat 2 stages in one turn. Mew doesn't even need to have Softboiled because guess what if it passes off a Nasty Plot to something like Lucario or Alakazam or Gengar odds are you just lost.
You'll also find that Mew is being allowed in Advance more because DP is around and there is less of a demand for the complete balance we have there and more of a demand for variety. This happened in GSC as well. Celebi used to be auto banned and as time passed people allowed Celebi to be used. Now this paragraph isn't meant to say that eventually Mew will be unbanned in DP or that we should just do it now because it will eventually. It is only meant to inform that why it might have occurred in other generations previous to this.
Ha alright you guys are probably right. To me, manaphy is a pokemon that's kind of on the fence between tiers (although some of you may feel differently about that). My initial thought was that perhaps a slight restriction could make it fall on one side, but time and testing may decide that it’s more suited for the other.
Great Sage
Banned deucer.
Also note that Dragon is only super effective on one type. I suppose I'll give a little analysis on the debatable ones now...
Manaphy: The Tail Glow sweeper is positively one of the most threatening sets in the game. The only Blissey that can beat it is Calm Mind Blissey (or one with lots of Freezing or Parahaxing luck), and when Blissey has that much trouble with a special attacker, you know it's Uber.
Celebi: I've probably seen two of these in the RMT forums. In fact, I've had so little experience with Celebi in D/P that I almost forgot it existed... Most teams tend to prefer Tangrowth. Celebi is seems pretty controllable in D/P. So let's say OU.
Tyranitar: It can wreak havoc in OU once it gets in, but with its numerous weaknesses and lackluster Speed, it doesn't have that many chances to get in. It can be taken care of decently by Gliscor, Swampert, Rhyperior, Hippowdon, and such. Note that a Crunch Defense down will hurt most of its supposed counters severely, as will a Stone Edge CH on Gliscor. For the most part, it's a very very good Pokemon, but not Uber. Also note that Ubers loves STAB Choice Banded physical Crunch, but that's besides the point.
I've personally never had a problem playing against Tyranitar, but that's probably just me. I don't really have an opinion about where it should be though, but I'd probably say it should be banned.
On one hand, it has great defenses and HP (all above 100) and an amazing 134 base attack. It's pretty slow, but 61 is just enough to outspeed anything that's not trying to use alot of Spd EVs (Everything below 60 usually doesn't use any, and often a -Spd nature). It has a good movepool too with EQ, Crunch, Dragon Dance, Stone Edge, etc.
On the other hand, it has extremely common weaknesses in Fighting, Ground, Water, and Grass. The person using Tyranitar can easily predict when these are coming though and simply switch out. The weaknesses alone are not enough to keep him in OU if he deserves to be banned from it.
As for Manaphy, it's been said already, but Rest is not the problem against it.
On one hand, it has great defenses and HP (all above 100) and an amazing 134 base attack. It's pretty slow, but 61 is just enough to outspeed anything that's not trying to use alot of Spd EVs (Everything below 60 usually doesn't use any, and often a -Spd nature). It has a good movepool too with EQ, Crunch, Dragon Dance, Stone Edge, etc.
On the other hand, it has extremely common weaknesses in Fighting, Ground, Water, and Grass. The person using Tyranitar can easily predict when these are coming though and simply switch out. The weaknesses alone are not enough to keep him in OU if he deserves to be banned from it.
As for Manaphy, it's been said already, but Rest is not the problem against it.
Yes, but Dragon also has some of the highest Attack stats and move Base Powers in the game. I'll show you what resists/immunity the other variations of Draco Meteor have:
Overheat: Flash Fire is an immunity. Fire, Water, Rock, and Dragon resist. Some of these are paired in ways to make a 4x resist.
Leaf Storm: No immunities. Fire, Grass, Poison, Flying, Bug, Dragon, and Steel. Dragon/Flying and Steel/Flying or Bug are veyr common types.
Psycho Boost: Dark types are immune. Psychic and Steel resist it. Okay, this is the closest to Draco Meteor, and it has 4x resists and an immunity.
Draco Meteor: Steel resists it.
Notice the difference. When you have such a large BP, you don't always need to score an SE hit to deal major damage.
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