D/P Venomoth

[matty]

D/P Venomoth

http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/venomoth

[SET]
Name: Toxic Spikes
Move 1: Sleep Powder
Move 2: Toxic Spikes
Move 3: Bug Buzz
Move 4: Psychic / Hidden Power Ground
Item: Focus Sash / Leftovers
Nature: Timid
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Ability: Tinted Lens

[SET COMMENTS]
<p> This Venomoth set plays very similar to its Roserade brethren. Since Venomoth will be mostly played in UU, she becomes a sister set to the similar Toxic Spike Roserade set.</p>

<p>Both utilize Sleep Powder to cripple their opponents and both lay Toxic Spikes. Combined with an un-resisted STAB Bug Buzz thanks to Tinted Lens, Venomoth also has the ability to lay the hurt. Without Sandstorm and Hail in UU, Focus Sash becomes the primary item and the EVs allow her to outspeed most leads, though you probably want to keep her away from things such as Swellow and Altaria. The Special Attack EVs put more damage in your attacks, but can be easily modified if you want a more bulky Moth. Physic is a great option to hit those Grounded Poisons coming in to absorb your Spikes. Hidden Power Ground allows you to hit incoming Fires who may scare you off. </p>


[OTHER OPTIONS]
<p> HP Ice is a surprise option as it allows you to hit Salamence, Hippowdon, Yanmega, and Roserade leads if you decide to play him as an OU lead. Hidden Power Fire may be your best bet though, as it can easily take out Venomoths biggest counter in OU, Forretress along with its ability to hit Steels that aren't affected by Toxic Spikes.</p>

 

[darkie]

EV section should be:

EVs:4 HP/ 252 SpA / 252 Spe

change all the Sp. Att to SpA.

I find HP Fire MUCH more useful to hit Forretress that come to rapid spin. Venomoth doesn't really have enough survivability to use Roost effectively.

 

[matty]

EV section should be:

change all the Sp. Att to SpA.

I find HP Fire MUCH more useful to hit Forretress that come to rapid spin. Venomoth doesn't really have enough survivability to use Roost effectively.

K changed the EV stuff; I agree hitting stuff like Forretress is a good idea, but since I mostly had this set in mind for UU, I'm not sure that HP Fire is all that great for the UU environment. I'll defiantly add it as an option and maybe some commentary on its uses in OU.

EDIT: K added what kd24 said; Personally, I like U-Turn because its a great move allowing you to flee if you are put into danger. If anything, maybe I should put extra options over Bug Buzz since you already have two Bug moves on the set and adding a Hidden Power wouldn't be a bad idea at all.

 

[kd24]

<p> This Venomoth set plays very similar to its Roserade brethren. Since Venomoth will be mostly played in UU, she becomes a sister set to the similar TS Roserade set.</p>

<p>Both utilize Sleep Powder to cripple their opponents and both lay Toxic Spikes. Combined with an un-resisted STAB Bug Buzz thanks to Tinted Lens, Venomoth also has the ability to lay the hurt. Without Sandstorm and Hail in UU, Focus Sash becomes the primary item and the EVs allow her to outspeed most leads, though you probably want to keep her away from things such as Swellow and Alteria. The Special Attack EVs put more damage in your attacks, but can be easily modified if you want a more bulky Moth. Hidden Power Ice is a surprise option that allows you to hit Salamence, Hippowdon, Yanmega, and Roserade leads if you decide to play this set in OU. Hidden Power Fire may be your best bet though, as it can easily take out Venomoths biggest counter in OU; Forretress.</p>

edit: HP Fire is so helpful for Steelix and Toxicroak in UU, but also really helpful in OU for Skarm and even more importantly Skarmory. So that should be the primary move in that last slot which I why I made it that way in my edit. U-Turn really doesn't help at all, although it is something Roserade lacks. However Venomoth has Baton Pass it can use in OU to let it escape and still scout but wont cause damage. However Pursuit will no longer hit it which is very cool. Also if you U-Turn to a Choice user, that pokemon must use U-Turn. I could put uturn back in but I dont really see the merit of it over HP Fire or Ice.

 

[Juuka]

though you probably want to keep her away from things such as Swellow and Alteria

Alteria should be Altaria. Hidden Power Ground could also be an option to take care of Probopass and any poisons wanting to absorb Toxic Spikes, and hit steels/(rocks) for super effective as well, but it might be too much slashitis for the last slot.

 

[cim]

STAB Bug Buzz isn't "unresisted". 4x resists still "resist" it.

HP Fire should be standard.

 

[RaikouLover]

Just want to note that if you do opt for HP Fire, you now lose the speed tie with Roserade. HP Fire's appeal isn't all that great anyway, since Bug Buzz does nearly as much to Bronzong and pretty much every other steel except Skarm and Forry.

 

[matty]

Just want to note that if you do opt for HP Fire, you now lose the speed tie with Roserade. HP Fire's appeal isn't all that great anyway, since Bug Buzz does nearly as much to Bronzong and pretty much every other steel except Skarm and Forry.

@Chris, this post says exactly why I use the set I posted. HP Fire is nice, but since Forretress and Skarmony are in separate tiers it really isn't a big deal to include HP Fire. Since a non-resisted Bug Buzz is doing about the same damage to Steelix and other Steels, having U-Turn gives you a lot more options. If you were going to try this set in OU (which I personally think is out-shined by Roserade for her higher SpA), then an inclusion of HP Fire is necessary. If called for, I can add another paragraph maybe highlighting the differences between OU and UU usage.

EDIT: Darkie pointed out my mistake; I wonder if this set outdoes Roserade in someway. Since the only thing that Roserade has over Venomoth is a high SpA. But with Tinted Lens, I think everything would be evened out. Along with U-Turn, it might be better, but I would like to test this out before I made slanderous assumptions.

 

[darkie]

Venomoth is Poison type, too, so it can suck up toxic spikes the same as Roserade.

edit: okay, i talked to you and we decided this, i think:

-Sleep Powder
-Toxic Spikes
-Bug Buzz
-Hidden Power Ice / U-turn

and list hp fire in the set comments. (remember to write out Hidden Power instead of HP)

 

[maddog]

What about Psychic on the main set? It allows you kill Toxicroak, which resists Bug Buzz 4x. Psychic also allows you to hit Muk, and any other poison types that try to asorb your Toxic Spikes.

 

[the pugilist]

If this set is deemed viable enough to be used in OU, I suggest a tiny mention in the other options section about HP Ground as it can deal with Heatran who completely walls this set otherwise (esp Restalk Versions).

Also, after looking at what ODDish said, Hp Ground can also hit the steels in UU (which are immune to the spikes) and a large amount of poison types for SE (barring Vileplume and some rarely seen pokemon such as Dustox and co).

 

[ODDish]

matty
I'm not sure that HP Fire is all that great for the UU environment.

It's not really ... at least half of the steel types are also part rock meaning they only take neutral damage, and Ninetales is also a fairly common switch-in to 'moth meaning free flash fire boost if you mispredict.

KinglerDude24
HP Fire is so helpful for Steelix and Toxicroak in UU,

That's assuming Toxicroak is actually running Dry Skin ...

maddog
Psychic also allows you to hit Muk, and any other poison types that try to asorb your Toxic Spikes.

Not quite ... both Drapion and Skuntank are both part Dark type.

 

[Caelum]

While I haven't played a lot of UU, what little I have though, I would agree with those that are saying HP Fire isn't as useful of an option in either UU or OU. Tinted Lens boosted Bug Buzz already does enough to most of Venomoth's switch in's into UU and OU. HP Ice, in UU, would basically be only be for Altaria but in OU I see it's uses. I'd say just drop HP Fire and put it into "other options", as well as HP Ground as that covers a lot of Venomoth's switch ins as well, of the set analysis and leave the final slot as U-Turn or HP Ice.

 

[Mekkah]

Primary focus of this analysis should be UU play. OU is a mere afterthought for Venomoth.

 

[matty]

K changed the EV stuff; I agree hitting stuff like Forretress is a good idea, but since I mostly had this set in mind for UU, I'm not sure that HP Fire is all that great for the UU environment. I'll defiantly add it as an option and maybe some commentary on its uses in OU.

@mekkah: I originally wanted this set to be UU, but people insisted some relation to OU. From now on I will just write as we are only talking about UU and maybe give a [OTHER OPTIONS] section if there is overwhelming need for commentary in OU.


So, the consensus I'm getting is.... what Junior and Puggy said....
- Toxic Spikes
- Sleep Powder
- Bug Buzz
- Psychic/Hidden Power: Ground

or are we still debating...?

 

[Warthog]

coverage or not, Sludge Bomb will always be a decent choice.

set looks pretty decent, a nice "sister" set from Roserade.

 

[RaikouLover]

This set is fine in OU, it works just as well as Roserade. There is no evidence that Roserade is doing this better, when they both have similar defensive stats and identical speed (Venomoth's physical defense is actually a bit better). Otherwise, what makes Ros do this better? All Roserade has is more weaknesses... They even have the same accuracy on the sleep move. This set IS Roserade.... Its a Roserade that doesn't suffer from the piss poor attacking coverage of a grass type, thanks to Tinted Lens.

So really, this set still should receive both OU and UU mentions.

 

[matty]

This would be the best set for UU. If people insist on using it in OU, then it should be:

- Toxic Spikes
- Sleep Powder
- Bug Buzz
- Hidden Power: Fire/Hidden Power: Ice

Hidden Power: Fire is more useful though imo, as it hits Forry for SE x4 so it can't spin against you.

Right; but I think we decided that this will just be a UU analysis and as a compliment to the set, I've written in an Other Options paragraph as explanation if you were to use this in OU.

 

[Syberia]

I use a Venomoth similar to this as a lead on my UU team, and it's very effective. You can use Psychic as a secondary attack, though I question how necessary any move other than Bug Buzz really is, considering the only thing to x4 resist you in UU is Toxicroak.

I'd opt for Roost in that slot instead, with a more bulky EV spread (still run max speed, less sp. atk, more HP), as believe it or not, Venomoth can take many neutral hits quite well, and has a few extremely useful resistances to fighting, bug, and grass. The spread Smogon already gives for a bulky Venomoth (196 HP / 96 SpA / 216 Spe) works fine here.

One thing worth considering - if your Venomoth is only going to be running one attack (which is all it really needs), sacrificing special attack EVs in favor of HP, and carrying a recovery move, I think I can make a case for the "noob item" Insect Plate. In this case, it pretty much works like a Life Orb without the recoil, turning a lot of 3HKOs from Bug Buzz into potential 2HKOs, without the recoil damage. Leftovers isn't entirely necessary, as you now pack Roost as well.

 

[rkatzam]

Stuff like Drifblim and Scyther x4 resist bug, so Psychic would be better than HP ground to hit them. Fire types still won't enjoy getting hit by Bug Buzz regardless.

edit: Yea apparently bug doesn't resist bug. Anyway, Psychic is nice to hit Muk for more damage and to kill Toxicroak. With SR on the field Drifblim won't enjoy coming in and later taking damage from Psychic.. it can't heal itself so I doubt Calm Mind will actually achieve anything.

 

[Syberia]

Scyther does not resist Bug, and therefore Bug Buzz hits it harder than Psychic. Drifblim is slower and can be put to sleep, and after a Calm Mind or two, is not going to care what you hit it with.

[SET]
Name: Toxic Spikes
Move 1: Bug Buzz
Move 2: Sleep Powder
Move 3: Toxic Spikes
Move 4: Roost / Psychic
Item: Leftovers / Insect Plate
Nature: Timid
EVs: 196 HP / 96 SpA / 216 Spe
Ability: Tinted Lens

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>This Venomoth plays a lot like a UU Roserade, with a few additional tricks up its sleeve - the ability to hit everything not named Toxicroak or Drifblim for neutral damage with only one attack, and access to a recovery move. As Venomoth is faster than most things in UU, getting off a Sleep Powder should not be too difficult a task. You can then lay Toxic Spikes, or just fire off Bug Buzz to hit the switch-in hard. Psychic makes a decent final move to deal with the aforementioned Toxicroak or other Poison-types who try to absorb your Spikes, but Roost is also useful if you plan to stick around a while.

If you opt for Roost as your final move, a case can be made for holding Insect Plate instead of the usual Leftovers. In this case, it acts pretty much like Life Orb to boost your only attacking move without recoil. Many of Venomoth's 3HKOs become potential 2HKOs with the boost (Salamence comes to mind). Though, if you don't care about Roost and want some extra power for your attacks, an EV spread of 6 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Speed works just fine.

[OTHER OPTIONS]
<p> HP Ice is a surprise option as it allows you to hit Salamence, Hippowdon, Yanmega, and Roserade leads if you decide to play him as an OU lead. Hidden Power Fire may be your best bet though, as it can easily take out Venomoths biggest counter in OU, Forretress along with its ability to hit Steels that aren't affected by Toxic Spikes.</p>

 

[yoshi!]

Syberia - So bug is weak to bug?

 

[Syberia]

Bug is neutral to Bug. Flying resists Bug (I'm assuming you're referring to Scizor), and Tinted Lens cancels that out, so Bug Buzz will hit Scyther for neutral.

 

[matty]

Scyther does not resist Bug, and therefore Bug Buzz hits it harder than Psychic. Drifblim is slower and can be put to sleep, and after a Calm Mind or two, is not going to care what you hit it with.

[SET]
Name: Toxic Spikes
Move 1: Bug Buzz
Move 2: Sleep Powder
Move 3: Toxic Spikes
Move 4: Roost / Psychic
Item: Leftovers / Insect Plate
Nature: Timid
EVs: 196 HP / 96 SpA / 216 Spe
Ability: Tinted Lens

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>This Venomoth plays a lot like a UU Roserade, with a few additional tricks up its sleeve - the ability to hit everything not named Toxicroak or Drifblim for neutral damage with only one attack, and access to a recovery move. As Venomoth is faster than most things in UU, getting off a Sleep Powder should not be too difficult a task. You can then lay Toxic Spikes, or just fire off Bug Buzz to hit the switch-in hard. Psychic makes a decent final move to deal with the aforementioned Toxicroak or other Poison-types who try to absorb your Spikes, but Roost is also useful if you plan to stick around a while.

If you opt for Roost as your final move, a case can be made for holding Insect Plate instead of the usual Leftovers. In this case, it acts pretty much like Life Orb to boost your only attacking move without recoil. Many of Venomoth's 3HKOs become potential 2HKOs with the boost (Salamence comes to mind).

[OTHER OPTIONS]
<p> HP Ice is a surprise option as it allows you to hit Salamence, Hippowdon, Yanmega, and Roserade leads if you decide to play him as an OU lead. Hidden Power Fire may be your best bet though, as it can easily take out Venomoths biggest counter in OU, Forretress along with its ability to hit Steels that aren't affected by Toxic Spikes.</p>

Good work. I've tested out a bulky set as well and I honestly think that it might be better overall. I think your EVs might be more efficient than mine as well. The only difference I see is that you give up some attacking power for bulkiness. What I move for is that either this set or my set are given as optional EVs within the analysis which I kinda mentioned. That way people have the option if they want a more offensive, or lightly bulky Moth to better serve their team.

 

[Syberia]

Yeah. 252/252/6 should be used with Psychic, not Roost.