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Dai-Gurren Brigade

Discussion in 'Past Gen Teams' started by Slyguy46, Dec 31, 2009.

  1. Slyguy46


    Dec 12, 2009
    'ello everybody. It's been a little bit since my last team was being criticized, and I've worked on a few teams since then, but this team is working very well for me. However, it still has a few glaring weaknesses, and I was hoping to get some help. So, without any more ado ...

    Team Building

    A while ago, I saw a team featuring a Bulky Salamence as a late-sweeper. I thought that this might work very well for building a team around, so I brought in BulkySalamence as a core.


    Next, I wanted something to absorb hits that Salamence would be weak to, and vice-versa. After some searching, MixApe seemed like the perfect choice.

    [​IMG] [​IMG]

    To cover a wide variety of pokemon, and to add to the synergy of the core, I brought in Offensive Celebi to act as an early-sweeper.

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    Looking at my team, I noticed a glaring weakness to both Stealth Rock and Ice-types. I brought in a Rapid Spinner that also resisted Ice, Tentacruel.

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    I then realized that I would need something to take out other dragon types in order to get the late sweep. I brought in Weavile to get the easy kills.

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    Finally, I needed a lead, something to work well with my team, and act as both an early and mid game threat. After some suggestions, I brought in Jirachi.

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    However, after testing, I realized that Weavile was not doing the job I wanted. Most of the time, I would have to result to Pursuit killing, and be locked into the attack via Choice Band. Looking for a replacement, I found Suicune, and edited the set's a little bit to support a Defensive/Sweeper fusion, which has worked very well for me.

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    Still, I wasn't satisfied with how the team was working. I looked over my team, and realized that both Infernape and Celebi were weakpoints for my team, not doing enough to set up a late sweep. The replacement for Infernape was somewhat obvious: Heatran could and would do a lot of damage to the threats to my team, while still maintaining the synergy with Salamence.

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    The replacement for Celebi was not so obvious however. I scoured the lists until I found one pokemon that would replace Celebi. It was in the UU tier that I finally found it, with the suprising power of Sceptile being added to my team.

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    A Closer Look

    Nia @ Lum Berry
    Serene Grace
    80 HP/252 Att/176 Speed
    -Iron Head
    -Thunder Wave
    -Stealth Rock

    This version of a Jirachi lead is very beneficial to my team. By using Thunder-Wave, I can either Iron Head the opposing lead to oblivion, or U-turn out for a Suicune or Sceptile set up. Stealth Rock is there for the obvious reasons, of getting those rocks up and threatening the opposition. This lead works wonders on trick leads or spore leads, as trick gives me a Choice Skarfed Jirachi, and the Lum Berry cures the sleep, allowing for that omni-prescent Thunder Wave. The only leads Jirachi seems to have a problem with are Hippowdon, Claydol, Swampert, and Ninjask, but the rest of my team can deal relatively nicely with each.

    Gurren Lagann (F) @ Life Orb
    4 HP/252 Att/252 Speed
    -Dragon Dance
    -Stone Edge
    -Dragon Claw

    Now, what was originally a bulky Salamence I have replaced with standard DDance Salamence, with some minor twists. I only use physical attacks, so the need for Spec Att EV's died, and I added them to Attack and HP. In order to get that late game sweep, I needed to have several choices for attacks, and locking myself into Outrage did not seem favorable, so I replaced it with Dragon Claw. Earthquake and Stone Edge cover the most amount of Late-Game threats, and DDance is essential for all Salamence sets.

    Kamina (M) @ Leftovers
    Flash Fire
    4 HP/252 Spec Att/252 Speed
    -Fire Blast
    -Earth Power
    -Hidden Power Electric 70

    Now, Heatran is literrally the most hot-blooded member of my team. I want to bring it out early, but if I save if for the mid-late game, I can use it destroy several key threats. I run HP Electric over Toxic to get that suprise kill on Gyarados and other Bulky Waters, bar Swampert. Fire Blast and Earth Power work well for Heatran, and Substitute keeps it alive for a bit longer. I may consider making this a Torment Tran, but it works as is.

    Simon (M) @ Leftovers
    216 HP/252 Speed/40 Spec Att
    -Leech Seed
    -Energy Ball
    -Hidden Power Ice 70

    Whereas Heatran is saved for Mid-Late Game, Sceptile is used very early on to drain and destroy several pokemon. Leech Seed will keep Sceptile alive, giving it on average another 18% health after leftovers is added, and Substitute leaves it with only a 7% loss each turn. Energy Ball is there to take out Swamperts and other Bulky Waters, and Hidden Power is used against the ever present Dragon type. This works well in conjuction with Tentacruel, whose Toxic Spikes will run an opponent dry within seconds after applying Leech Seed.

    Lord Genome (M) @ Leftovers
    Liquid Ooze
    252 HP/120 Def/136 Spec Def
    -Rapid Spin
    -Toxic Spikes

    Another key part of my early game strategy, Tentacruel sets up Toxic Spikes to take out annoying pokemon that Jirachi or Heatran can't take care of. Payback is there to deal destruction on Spin Blockers such as Rotom, and Surf is used for STAB. Works very well as a wall, and can take a hit from most everything, bar DDanced Salamence and Gyarados. Because of this, I usually set up T-Spikes, then switch out, and use him as a hit-absorber later in the game.

    Viral @ Leftovers
    60 HP/240 Speed/208 Spec Att
    -Calm Mind
    -Ice Beam

    Along with Tentacruel, Suicune is essential to the Early-Mid Game. Once Tentacruel has set up Toxic Spikes, I Roar, forcing toxic on a good portion of my opponents team. Along with scouting my opponents team and cripling some members of the other team that want to wall my team. Ice Beam will take out Grass and Dragon Types that threaten my team, and Surf is there for STAB. Overall, this set works very well for my team, though I am open to the suggestion for a grass attack over Calm Mind.

    A Final Look

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    Overall, this team works very well, but it has a few noticable problems. Swampert can wall my team, as Jirachi, Salamence, and Tentacruel are all threatened by my Earthquake and Ice Beam, and often switches out on Sceptile, not allowing me to get the kill. As such, I am open to suggestions for helping my team.

    Thanks in advance!
  2. ARandomDude


    Jun 21, 2009
    First off, I don't know why you have 216 EVs in Sceptile's HP. With this, getting enough HP for a substitute after Leech is harder. Put it into special attack, or if you dont like that, speed.
    Now, I'm not sure what exactly is Tentacruel's purpose here, since a couple things could do his job better, namely Forretress. He resists Ice, and can still spin and set up entry hazards.
  3. Slyguy46


    Dec 12, 2009
    True, but the thing that I like about Tentacruel is that it absorbs T-Spikes without having to spin, giving me another turn of attack, or set-up. I'll look into the Sceptile thing, also.

    Thanks for the help.
  4. Quickster


    Jun 13, 2009
    Crocune would be a better option, seeing as you have Toxic Spikes as well. A Revenge Killer would probably also benefit your team, just to net some good kills. For this, I think you should either chuck a Choice Scarf on Sceptile and use SubTran, or Scarf your Heatran and keep your Sceptile. The choice is yours. Also, as this is an OU team, Grass Knot would be preferable of Energy Ball as the only thing which is taking less (which you would actually hit) is Vaporeon. Those are some ideas if you want to keep the members of your team the same. I'm a bit tired right now so I can't really be bothered to make changes with pokemon etc. I do think Forretress is better though on your team, although then you'll have to watch out for Infernape as it can destroy your team if you get Forretress in.
  5. ame.otani


    Nov 13, 2009
    Tentacruel also resists ice. It's faster than Fortress, for what it's worth. Tentacruel also packs a more offensive punch. I'm not sure why he'd choose Fortress over Tentacruel; Jirachi already SRs, Tentacruel Toxic Spikes, and I'm not sure if using Spikes would be wise without having a spin blocker.

    Nitpick. Jirachi does fine against Ninjask. A Ninjask lead is going to typically mean a Baton Pass team. So, just paralyze it. It'll be forced to throw that paralyze throughout the chain.

    On Sceptile. It looks like you want to bring him during the early game and just blow holes through your opponent. I think Sceptile is a great choice for this team, but I believe a MixTile will work much better for your purposes:

    Sceptile @ Life Orb
    Naive Nature
    252 Atk / 80 SpA / 176 Spe
    Leaf Storm
    Focus Blast
    Leaf Blade

    Typically, one would like to save mixed attackers for late game. However, I think that by employing Mence after MixTile, it will be able to absolutely devasate teams. If you find that opposing grass types (namely Celebi) are hindering your Sceptile's performance, try switching Leaf Blade for X-Scissor.

    I'm not entirely sure if your Suicune is trying to be offensive or defensive. Your team seems to have a very balanced sort of feel, so I'd suggest trying this EV spread: Timid | 172 HP / 120 SpA / 216 Spe. Your speed seems to be a bit of an overkill in my personal opinion, particularly for a more bulky Suicune. If you feel like your Suicune is needing more of an offensive push, try throwing out Roar for Hidden Power (Electric).

  6. ENZ0

    is a Tutor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnus

    Dec 18, 2009
    Looking closely at Suicune I see no point for its current evs placement. Since it looks headed towards offense I will suggest the following set:

    Suicune@ Leftovers
    Timid Nature
    44 HP / 248 SpA / 216 Spe
    Calm Mind
    Ice beam
    HP Electric / Roar

    If you want Suicune to actually shuffle the opposing team in an efficient way I suggest the set from the smogon analysis.

    Suicune@ Leftovers
    Bold Nature
    252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
    Calm Mind
    Ice Beam / HP Electric / Rest
  7. XxJohny2haixX


    Jun 22, 2009
    Hi, I'm wondering why you have Payback on Tentacruel with a Calm nature? If you really need a Ice resist and a spinner go with Starmie, whom allows you to check similar threats; ie: Infernape.

    Your Salamence even after a DD cannot OHKO Skarmory with the given moveset. Since a Stone Edge will at maximum deal; 50%. Therefore, you should replace Stone Edge with Fire Blast.

    Sorry for not being a full rate, dont have the time atm.
  8. Slyguy46


    Dec 12, 2009
    Thanks for all the rates. I think I'm gonna try out ame.otani's Sceptile and Torrent's Suicune suggestions, and see how this works. This might also help, as currently, my only physical sweeper's are Salamence and Jirachi.
  9. RaikouLover


    Aug 31, 2006
    Okay, I'm going to rate this team because I like the strategy and where you are going with it *cracks knuckles.*

    Okay, so the point of the team is a DDMence sweep and I see your using Tentacruel.. that is an excellent combination good job! Your Tentacruel set is good for the most part so a small suggestion:

    Replace Payback! Tentacruel has poor attack and your better off using Ice Beam as a deterrant to Salamence set ups. Surf will outdamage payback on rotom anyway. Now for your Mence set there are a few options. Since you are running Toxic Spikes, I highly recommend using Roost, that way you can stall if need be, and it can act as a defensive pokemon and counter for luke in a pinch.. So here is the set and I'll give you a general list of EV spreads to choose from.

    Salamence @ Life Orb | Intimidate
    Dragon Dance / Dragon Claw / Earthquake / Roost

    Okay, you can use Outrage over Dragon Claw or Fire Blast over roost if you feel its necessary. Test it and see whats best. As for EV spreads, try these out to see which ones you like best!

    Adamant, 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
    Jolly, 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe

    These two are basic bread and butter. Here are some more specific ones:

    Adamant, 152 HP / 68 Atk / 56 Def / 176 Spe / 56 SpD
    Jolly, 232 HP / 100 Def / 176 Spe

    These two maximize defensive capabilities and still provide sweeping and a good check for Luke. Test them!

    Now, for the rest of the Team, Suicune is a solid choice as well with Toxic Spikes as it gives another Ice Resist and lategamer. I recommend one of these two Crocune sets:

    Suicune @ Leftovers
    Bold | 240 HP / 176 Def / 80 SpA / 12 Spe
    Surf / Calm Mind / Reflect / Rest
    Surf / Calm Mind / Rest / Sleep Talk

    Both of them will support the team, give you a sturdy late-gamer. The first is less prone to Mence set-up however.

    Now, the whole Sceptile / Celebi deal I am unsure where your thought processes is here, but Celebi does make an excellent defensive pokemon and will patch up that Gyarados weakness, in addition to adding another staller. So I recommend going back to Celebi and using something along these lines:

    Celebi @ Leftovers
    Bold | 252 HP / 220 Def / 36 Spe
    Grass Knot / Reflect / Leech Seed / Recover

    Leech Seed will help you stall more with T-Spikes on the field and Reflect + Grass Knot will take care of Gyarados. However, T-Wave, and Hidden Power Fire are also viable options in that slot. See what suits your team best.

    Now, my final suggestion is with Heatran. Heatran is a good revenge killer for your team since it lacks speed, so I would use the simple ScarfTran set, especially since his main counters are all worn down by Toxic Spikes and the rest of your team. It will also give you a decent switch into Rotom!

    So, take a look at some of my suggestions and try implementing which ones you like. Happy battling!
  10. WoOoShoOo!!


    Aug 13, 2009

    The first thing I noticed was Tentacruel's nature and EV's. Lol, too many EV's in Special Defense on a Calm Nature? Tentacruel has 120 Base Special Defense so, at least 92 EV's would do and put the rest in Defense. You also might want to change it's Nature, Calm Nature would lessen the power of your Payback. Change it to Sassy Nature, if you have Sassy, Payback is sure to hit at 100 BP.

    Second thing I noticed, you have no Revenge Killer. By the way, your team loses to DDmence, the CBscizor-SDluke, and DDtar as well. So, having a reliable revenge killer is nice. Change your lead > ShucaTran lead and Jirachi as a Scarf variant.

    Heatran | Shuca Berry | Flash Fire
    Naive Nature | 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe /
    Stealth Rock / Fire Blast / Earth Power / Explosion

    Shuca Berry allows you to take at least one Earthquake(but not from Anti-lead Dragonite). Stealth Rock is there for obvious reasons, Fire Blast allows you to deal with steel-types like Metagross and Jirachi. Earth Power for opposing Heatran. Explosion allows you to take down at least one pokemon when Heatran is about to go down. Naive Nature to maximize the power of Explosion.

    Jirachi | Choice Scarf | Serene Grace
    Jolly Nature | 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
    Iron Head / Ice Punch / Fire Punch / Thunderpunch

    Jirachi has awesome defenses, so you can use it to also take attacks. Anyways, to explain the moves. Iron Head allows you to take on Tyranitar, Ice Punch is for Salamence and other Dragons, Fire Punch is especially for Scizor and Lucario, Thunderpunch is for Gyarados and other Bulky-water pokemons. Heh. With that kind of coverage, Jirachi is sure to finish every threat.

    Finally, you could try Crocune. With Toxic-Spikes and Crocune's ability to stall hard, awesome defenses and a healing move. Crocune will be taking down a lot of pokemon Late-game. Or, you can try Offensive Calm Mind Suicune. That's all I can do for now. I hope this helps! Good Luck!
  11. Setsuna

    Setsuna Prototype
    is a Tutor Alumnusis a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis an Administrator Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Jan 1, 2009

    I have been looking at the team for a while, and I do have a couple of questions, starting by who does benefit from Toxic Spikes? I can only think of Suicune, but if it's not carrying Rest TS aren't such a good idea. Also, does Salamence need TS to perform its sweep? aren't Spikes better? Look at Salamence's calculations written in the web and you'll see no mention for Toxic Spikes or if they help Salamence somehow.
    The way I see Tentacruel and Toxic Spikes for this team, is just a dead weight, and will suggest you something for this spot, later.

    Now, a team that has offensive DD Salamence as its main sweeper, or as its central idea for a sweep, needs to remove two things mainly: Scarf Latias and CB Scizor. And without having Wish support, I don't see how can you handle LO/Scarf Latias and you will be the whole match spinning, trying to dragon dance, and going nowhere.

    Sceptile, what is it doing? I see Celebi, being a stronger option here, at least it counters DD Gyarados, paralyzes SD Lucario/Latias and propitiates a very useful support. Honestly, Sceptile has no point for being here.

    All that said, I'm going to make two recommendations, the first one is to replace Sceptile for Scizor, in order to trap Latias, revenge kill DD Mence, and help a bit with LO Starmie:

    Adamant | 160 HP / 176 Atk / 4 Spe / 168 SpD
    U-turn | Bullet Punch | Superpower | Pursuit

    That spread suffices to achieve the aforementioned purposes, so try it out and do not spam Bullet Punches at the beginning of the match, that's crucial.

    Tentacruel, besides from setting TS up, it counters Infernape and gives Latias a couple of turns to use Calm Mind and attempt to rape you. In order to keep some pressure on the opponent and still counter Ape, use this:

    Latias @ Life Orb
    Timid nature.
    4 HP / 252 Spd / 252 SpA.
    - Draco Meteor
    - Thunderbolt
    - Surf
    - Recover

    Let's see both changes (Scizor, Latias) in the way that they will help you to eliminate pokes that represent a problem for Salamence and Suicune. The offensivity they add can determine the game so their role, as I stated before, would be extremely important for the team's success.

    Mentioning Suicune, I want to make a brief nitpick in its set, but first I quote a portion of yours words:

    If you look at the most used pokemons in the Pokémetrics sub-forum, you will find a few pokemons from what you'll benefit of using Toxic Spikes + Roar, which is pointless somehow because any pokemon that could be infected by TS in the opponent's team will suffer it once they go out. So basically you are just using SR to inflict damage upon them.

    In order to make Suicune more bulky and effective, I want you to try the following set out:

    Timid | 100 HP / 232 Spd / 176 SpA
    Calm Mind | Surf | Ice Beam | HP Electric

    Great Cune, I just twist a bui your current set and added HP Electric over Roar. Here you have a safe card against DD Gyarados, which can only set up against Scizor, and a very bulky special sweeper. Its use is simple as you may know, so I don't think I have to explain it.

    One more thing, stay with Toxic on Heatran. Is more valuable to "condemn" threats like Latias, Salamence, Dragonite than surprising Gyarados.

    Feel free to ignore or try the suggestions out. Good luck.

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