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Dance with the Devil: OU Sand

Discussion in 'BW OU Teams' started by TyranitarTerror, Jul 30, 2013.

  1. TyranitarTerror

    TyranitarTerror

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2013
    Messages:
    146
    ~Dance with the Devil~
    RMT No.2
    -----------
    -Updated-​


    I made this team to exemplify defensive synergy and work in a very stall sort of way, which is my favorite method of play. Consequentially each of my team's Pokemon has at least on immunity, not to mention the resistances abound. This gives me the ability to dance around Pokemon and stall to great effect. If I play well, this team has no real challenges from anything, except the common SkarmBliss core which is very resistant to stall. Featured in my team is the standard Jellicent and Ferrothorn core, but I have added Heatran who makes the synergy sizzle. Anyways, onto my team:


    --Overview--
    [​IMG][​IMG] [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    Originally I had a Landorus-Incarnate in place of Ladorus-Therian, but with the banning of the Incarnate, I was forced to switch to Therian to keep the brilliant Synergy alive. I swapped out my initial Celebi to make room for Heatran as well. In the updates I have built-in the rates and tinkered with sets, natures and spreads as well as replacing Latios with Latias.
    <-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------->​

    In Depth:


    Godzilla the Tyranitar
    [​IMG]

    Tyranitar (M) @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Sand Stream
    EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 HP
    Jolly Nature
    - Crunch
    - Pursuit
    - Stone Edge
    - Superpower

    Yes, this is a Scarftar. People do not usually expect a Scarftar, so I can usually get one turn to surprise my opponent when it outspeeds things like Thundurus or other slower sweepers that can usually get the jump on Tyranitar. I use him mostly when dealing with Rain teams as the combination of Jellicent and Ferrothorn usually force out opposing Politoed in favor of Hurricane/Thunder abusers. I have been toying with giving him Earthquake over Pursuit to mess with things like Jolteon and Jirachi and generally enhance hit sweeping potential.


    Primal the Landorus-Therian
    [​IMG]
    Landorus-Therian (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Intimidate
    EVs: 200 HP / 64 Atk / 244 Def
    Adamant Nature
    - Stealth Rock
    - Superpower
    - Earthquake
    - U-turn

    Primal is my Stone Setter and my best defense against Blissey in the SkarmBliss core that can mess so easily with my team. He also provides a great switch-in for both Jellicent and Heatran as he is immune to both Electric and Ground. In Heatran's case, he can even weaken the opponent's Dragon or Physical-Attacker with Intimidate. He is also really handy to have when dealing with HaxRachi as it weakens the damage and can switch in on Thunder Wave. I have found he is just a little more effective than the Incarnate I was running before him.


    Smaug the Heatran
    [​IMG]
    Heatran (M)
    @ Leftovers
    Trait: Flash Fire
    EVs: 248 HP / 8 SAtk / 252 SDef
    Calm Nature
    - Lava Plume
    - Protect
    - Toxic
    - Roar

    Smaug is one of the best Sun counters there is countering nearly every abuser except Psysical Venusaur and Infernape. That being said, unless an Infernape uses Superpower, Smaug can survive a hit and poison to being stall. He also is a bulwark against opposing Scizor. More importantly, he is part of my incredibly effective defensive core that can dance around most everything when used with the right prediction. The ability to switch in on predicted Will-O-Wisps and Toxics is very useful. He also covers Ferrothorn's weakness to Fire better than Jellicent through Flash Fire making him a wonderful addition to the Ferro-Jelli core.



    Niña the Latias
    [​IMG]
    Latias (F)
    @ Leftovers
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature
    - Substitute
    - Roost
    - Calm Mind
    - Dragon Pulse

    Niña is my quintessential Breloom counter, without it I am at the mercy of pretty much any well-played passing Breloom. Her Levitate provides wonderful switching-in opportunities on Choiced Equakes that are aimed towards Heatran. It is also able to come in and set up on pesky Celebi, Ferrothorn and Rotom-Wash which is invaluable. When this thing is set up it is a monster and consequentially I save Niña for late-game. This is subjective however, because Breloom may bring it out sooner. Another key role Niña provides is to act as a bulwark against any Sun teams that may have a Physical Venusaur, pairing very nicely with Heatran.



    Ironside the Ferrothorn
    [​IMG]
    Ferrothorn (F)
    @ Leftovers
    Trait: Iron Barbs
    EVs: 252 HP / 88 Def / 168 SpD
    Relaxed Nature
    - Leech Seed
    - Power Whip
    - Protect
    - Spikes

    Ironside is the third piece to my defensive trio. With its abilities to work in conjunction with Jellicent and even when need be, soak Earthquakes directed at Heatran it is the perfect partner. Not only that, but Ironside is my best defense against Rain teams as she soaks nearly everything they can throw at her and provides a great window for Tyranitar to switch in on impending Hurricanes. With Landorus-Therian being the Stone Setter I am able to run Protect over Stealth Rock on Ironside, which gives her the ability to scout and maximize the Leech Seed return and Leftovers regeneration.



    Jelly the Jellicent
    [​IMG]
    Jellicent (F)
    @ Leftovers
    Trait: Water Absorb
    EVs: 248 HP / 164 Def / 96 Spd
    Bold Nature
    - Recover
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Taunt
    - Shadow Ball

    Jellicent is my best counter to Steel sweepers such as SD Lucario and Scizor as in Lucario's case negating its priority and its ability to burn. It works wonders in sync with Heatran as Heatran attracts Water-Type attacks, which Jellicent can switch in on and gain life. The Fighting-Type attacks that would cripple Tyranitar, Ferrothorn, or Heatran do not affect Jellicent and these switch-in opportunities provide ample chance to spread Burns throughout the opponent's team. It also is the utter bane of Specs Politoed. The obvious synergy with Ferrothorn adds to the many benefits of its presence on this team. It is adept at attracting Outrages which either Ferrothorn or Heatran can switch in on and take advantage of. In addition to all this, physical spread lets it come in on +1 to +2 Outrages and Burn if need be




    <-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------->

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG] [​IMG][​IMG]

    Final Notes:
    With the updates that have been made, this team functions even better than before. Overall, however, in my opinion, the weakest link seems to be Primal. I have been wondering if I should make him a Rock Polish Sweeper. Otherwise, beyond his synergy and setting, he does not contribute as much to the team as the rest. With that in mind, as the RMT is updated, so are the replays! Here are more featuring this team in action:

    http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ou-45877141
    http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ou-44690789
    http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ou-44609674
    http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ou-43489384


    Here is the importable:
    Show Hide

    Godzilla (Tyranitar) (M) @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Sand Stream
    Shiny: Yes
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature
    - Crunch
    - Pursuit
    - Stone Edge
    - Superpower

    Primal (Landorus-Therian) (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Intimidate
    EVs: 200 HP / 64 Atk / 244 Def
    Adamant Nature
    - Stealth Rock
    - Superpower
    - Earthquake
    - U-turn

    Smaug (Heatran) (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Flash Fire
    EVs: 248 HP / 8 SAtk / 252 SDef
    Calm Nature
    - Lava Plume
    - Protect
    - Toxic
    - Roar

    Jelly (Jellicent) (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Water Absorb
    EVs: 248 HP / 164 Def / 96 Spd
    Bold Nature
    - Recover
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Taunt
    - Shadow Ball

    Niña (Latias) (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Levitate
    Shiny: Yes
    EVs: 248 HP / 8 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature
    - Substitute
    - Dragon Pulse
    - Roost
    - Calm Mind

    Ironside (Ferrothorn) (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Iron Barbs
    EVs: 252 HP / 88 Def / 168 SDef
    Relaxed Nature
    - Leech Seed
    - Power Whip
    - Protect
    - Spikes

    Last edited: Sep 19, 2013
  2. MCBarrett

    MCBarrett i love it when you call me big hoppa
    Mentor

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2012
    Messages:
    544
    Hey TyranitarTerror, nice team you have here! The synergy is very nice and I had been using that Jelli/Thorn/Tran core for quite a while and I really love using it! One thing I did notice once Breloom started gaining back popularity with the banning of Tornadus-T though, is that it can give this core a ton of trouble. Being able to put any one of them to sleep and set up and hit each member for Super Effective damage. And Landorus-T is not a good answer to this either since a +1 3 hit Bullet Seed from Adamant LO Breloom is a guranteed OHKO after SR. And a +0 3 hit Bullet Seed from the same Breloom does 53-62% to Latios which is a very strong chance to knock it out after SR damage and Sandstorm Damage. So basically if somebody sends in a Breloom against either Heatran, Ferrothorn, or Jellicent you are going to have to sac something and let something go to sleep.

    I have a couple of changes that I have tried out that should help your team out when dealing with Breloom. First would be to switch your current Ferrothorn with Celebi. Celebi keeps much of the same type synergy within this core, sharing no weaknesses with Heatran. Also, Celebi has Natural Cure to play mind games with Breloom and it resists both of its STABs. You can also run Leech Seed with Celebi and it has reliable recovery to stay around longer.
    You can run this set:

    Celebi @ Leftovers
    Calm Nature 252 hp/ 236 sp def/ 20 speed
    Giga Drain/Psychic
    U-Turn/Baton Pass
    Recover
    Perish Song/ Leech Seed/ T-Wave

    Although this does help with your Breloom problem slightly, another small change to act as a safety net would help a lot. I would recommend using Sleep Talk over Trick on your Specs Latios. This is actually pretty cool because you can still function very well while your Latios is asleep! You don't get to select your move while asleep but since Specs Latios is so strong even the suboptimal move can still hit extremely hard. Plus you could just save it for when needing to rely on drawing a Draco Meteor isn't as crucial.

    Lastly, your EV spreads can be touched up a little bit. On Heatran, only use 248 HP EV to ensure you can switch into SR as much as possible. On Landorus-T you could try the standard 200 HP/244 def/ 64 att with an Adamant nature for some extra bulk. Finally, on Jellicent, if you decide to run Taunt over Will-o-Wisp or Toxic (Which I highly recommend to help wear down Stall Teams. I would recommend Scald, Toxic, Taunt to keep the ability to burn and poison) you should run 88 speed EV to outspeed defensive Politoed and Non-Custap Skarmory. This would allow you to Taunt them before the could Toxic you or set up Hazards respectively. It also lets you stall out other bulky waters like opposing Jellicent and Gastrodon.

    Hopefully my suggestions helped! Let me know how it works and good luck with the team!
  3. TyranitarTerror

    TyranitarTerror

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2013
    Messages:
    146
    Thanks for the rate! The spreads you have given me are really nice--I have tested them and they have made quite a difference. Also, Taunt on Jellicent is really amazing. That totally wipes SkarmBliss off my list of threats
    I tried Celebi, but it did not fit well into the team, because I relied on Ferro to deal with Rain Teams. Ferro is to Rain as Heatran is to Sun and when I removed it I found myself too vulnerable to Rain teams to be comfortable with the change. That being said, I really quite like the Sleep Talk on Latios. That is ingenious and so very effective for dealing with Breloom. I originally originally dealt with Breloom with Landorus-Incarnate--but then Djinn was banned.
  4. Nova

    Nova Samsung Alpaca
    is a member of the Site Staffis an official Team Rateris a Smogon IRC AOPis a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Mentor

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    1,516
    Hi TyranitarTerror

    I'm noticing a really big weakness to Sun teams with Dugtrio. Dugtrio can trap and take out Tyranitar as well as Heatran, which opens your team up to being swept by Volcarona or Venusaur. To patch up this weakness, try a Shed Shell on Heatran. Shed Shell means Heatran can switch out of trapping abilities which allows Heatran to much more reliably check Sun as it won't be able to be trapped anymore. The change is a bit obscure, but your team is already solid and the small adjustment really gives it a much better matchup vs Sun.

    Use Stone Edge over Superpower on Landorus-T. Stone Edge provides much better coverage with Earthquake than Superpower. It allows you to hit the Flying types and Levitators that are immune to Earthquake harder. You won't be forced to switch out against things like Salamence and Dragonite who could otherwise proceed to set up in the face of Landorus-T. You can also try using Hidden Power Ice with a Brave nature in order to surprise opposing Landorus-T's.

    Lastly, try Taunt over Toxic on Jellicent. You've already got a status inflicting move in Will-o-Wisp so having Toxic isn't vey beneficial. Taunt helps your team a lot more as you can prevent things from setting entry hazards which is especially crippling since you do not pack a spinner. I'd also change Jellicent's EV spread to 248 HP / 216 SpD / 44 Spe. The little bit of Speed investment means Jellicent can outspeed Choice Band Scizor and hit it with Will-o-Wisp before it can U-turn out.

    Good luck with your team
  5. Funkasaurus

    Funkasaurus he did the mash
    is a Tutoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2011
    Messages:
    664
    Hey there,

    Nice team. As previous raters have stated, you have quite a Breloom weakness, so I will base my rate around that. To help with this change, I feel that you should change Latios to a Substitute CM Latias. For a defensive team like this, Latios seems quite out of place here. Since Latias is a more defensive Pokemon, it will definitely fit the team much better. As your team's best Breloom check, with sand, Stealth Rock, and other residual damage, Latios isn't going to last very long. When it faints, your team will be in quite a bit of jeopardy. Your next best thing would be Landorus-T, but that really isn't the best check to Breloom, especially with its current moveset and EV spread. With Latias, you gain a Pokemon who has the same typing as Latios, but you have something that will be able to take more hits and effectively sweep by Calm Minding. Also, with this change, you gain a Pokemon that can help you even more with Sun teams and Rain teams. With Calm Mind, Latias finds easy setup against commonly used Pokemon like Keldeo, Rotom-W, Celebi (bar Perish Song variants), and others. Next, I have a few EV spread, nature, and moveset changes. I recommend making your Jellicent the standard Stallbraker set with 248 HP / 216 Def / 44 Spe with Scald > Will-o-Wisp and Taunt > Shadow Ball with a Bold nature. With these changes, Jellicent becomes an effective mixed wall that allows your team to beat opposing stall teams with its status move + Taunt combination. With its old EV spread, nature, and moveset, Jellicent was unable to take any physical hits at all and was unable to fulfill the role that a Jellicent would normally fill. Now it can take a physical attack and proceed to Toxic to retaliate or Scald (to try to burn), effectively helping your team stall the opponent. Next, I recommend you make Ferrothorn have the standard Special Defensive EVs of 252 HP / 88 Def / 168 SpD with Relaxed nature and a 0 IV in Speed. In my experience, Ferrothorn is more useful as a special wall as opposed to a physical wall as it is used primarily as a rain check and most of rain team Pokemon are specially based. Also, Ferrothorn definitely wants to be the slowest Pokemon on the field so its slower than something like Forretress that may want to Rapid Spin vs Ferrothorn (and you can't switch to Jellicent for some reason) so you can spam Spikes as it tries to Rapid Spin and takes Iron Barbs damage. And lastly, you Landorus-T set seems rather off to me. I feel that you should run the defensive pivot set like MCBarrett said but with Stone Edge / HP ice over Superpower. This allows Landorus not to take an unnecessary Attack and Defense drop and it allows you to hit something like Dragonite (or Garchomp with HP Ice) harder.

    Changes (open)

    Latias (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 248 HP / 8 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Calm Mind
    - Dragon Pulse
    - Substitute
    - Roost

    Ferrothorn
    Impish --> Relaxed
    Current EVs --> 252 HP / 88 Def / 168 SpD + 0 IV

    Jellicent
    Calm --> Bold
    Current EVs --> 248 HP / 216 Def / 44 Spe
    Will-o-Wisp --> Scald
    Shadow Ball --> Taunt

    Landorus-T
    Current EVs --> 200 HP / 244 Def / 64 Atk
    Superpower --> Stone Edge / Hidden Power Ice
  6. TyranitarTerror

    TyranitarTerror

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2013
    Messages:
    146
    Sorry to take so long to get back to you guys, but I have been testing your suggestions. Anyways:

    Nova:
    Show Hide
    I prefer keeping Superpower on Landorus-Therian because I find very little danger in flying or Levitators as I can usually switch something in to deal with them. Also, Stone Miss is not a move I like to rely too heavily on when I do not have to. If I need Stone Miss I will use the surprise factor of Scarftar to nail the opponent.
    I tried the Shed Shell on Heatran and found myself missing the Leftovers recovery. As much as the Shell protected Heatran from Dugtrio, it also cut his longevity. He is a particularly crucial piece to the Jellicent/Ferrothorn core and I cannot afford any less time from him than I already get.
    I have found that 44 Speed to be very nice when it comes to Taunt


    Funkasaurus:
    Show Hide
    The SubCM Latias was a wonderful idea. As much as I like the power that Latios brought to the equation with Draco Meteor I did find the wear to be irritating and an irksome way to garner SR damage. I do not think I would have thought of that, so thanks.
    Also, the spreads for Ferro and Jellicent are very useful.


    Here is a battle that I had while testing the SubCM Latias in case it interests anyone:
    http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ou-42882082
  7. Leftiez

    Leftiez *Stars*

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2012
    Messages:
    1,012
    Hey there.
    It is a very interesting team that you have there, I don't much like stall in this metagame because it is too violent, and a pokemon can easily violate all your team, but this team looks solid, I won't suggest big changes but I can give you some advices to make most effective.
    Your main threat to me is Alakazam, with Focus sash it can be annoying for your team but with Life orb it is monstrous, it can easily kill Landorus-T/Tyranitar/Latios, then the opponent can weaken Jellicent/Heatran/Ferrothorn to kill them after, I noticed that Breloom could do much damage, Latios is a good check to Breloom but it is too frail because it is 2HKO by Mach Breloom punch after a Sword Dance, Landorus-T is a solution to come on Breloom but the opponent can sleep him, I totally agree with McBarrett, I suggest you swap Ferrothorn with Celebi Specially Defensive, Celebi is a very good pokemon for your team because it is a very good counter to Breloom, and it is also a counter to Rotom / Check to rains teams ect...
    But Celebi is also a very good check to Alakazam, even if it has Shadow ball Celebi Specially defensive tank very well (252 SpA Alakazam Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 236 + SpD Celebi: 132-156 (32.67 - 38.61%) - 3.91% chance to 3HKO), and with Uturn you can scoot the switch of the opponent but be careful, don't let Celebi die if Alakazam is still alive.

    Then I noticed that you possess a single check for the physicals sweepers (Landorus-T), but when I see its spread i notice thats not a support, how will you come on a Terrakion after a sword dance or a Dragonite bander? Because with your spread the opponent can easily kill him, I suggest you take this spread "EVs: 200 HP / 64 Atk / 244 Def" Impish/Adamant Nature, with this Spread you can come more easily on the sweepers as Lucario, Scizor, Terrakion, Dragonite.

    Now I talk about Jellicent, I like this spread because you're weak to Reuniclus trick room, with this spread you can tank Shadow ball and weaken it for trapp him with Tyranitar, but I suggest you to put Taunt over Toxic because you're playing a stall without spinner, then if the opponent plays a stall you'll be very disadvantaged, with Taunt you can avoid this problem.

    I hope I Helped and good luck with your team.
    ~Leftiez
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2013
  8. TyranitarTerror

    TyranitarTerror

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2013
    Messages:
    146
    Thank you all for your rates and your patience. I have been incredibly busy lately so the process of testing the suggestions has been really slow. However, I have finally gotten to the place where I can update the RMT. The one change I did not use was Celebi. I used Celebi, but it did not match with the synergy of this team well enough, its weakness to ice leaving it very vulnerable when battling Rain teams.
    Anyways, the RMT is still pretty much the same, other than the sets and the addition of Latias--as I mention above.
    Thanks again for your patience and let me know what you think!
  9. pokelegend

    pokelegend

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2013
    Messages:
    39
    Hello man! First of all really cool team man, really strong and solid. The only few things I would say to you are:
    • I really think you are weak to garchomp. The only one that will survive him is landorus, and I see the same problem with stoutland. I will cover this flaw by using an powerful priority user like scizor, but even him is OHKOd by them.
    • What is Ferro really doing? I think that celebi will be really more helpful than him. Celebi helps covering rotom (that give you some problems too I think) and block brelooms and work like a status abuser, and he is not OHKOd by garchomp or stoutland and you can hit them or just stall/paralize opponent. I haven't nothing else to say. Gl and bye ^.^
  10. TyranitarTerror

    TyranitarTerror

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2013
    Messages:
    146
    Thank you for the rate!
    Overall, I do not find Garchomp to be too big of a deal. Unless it is Scarfed, Latias is a brilliant way to coax it into Outrage, which is something both Ferrothorn and Heatran can easily tank. Also, Ferrothorn has the added benefit of Barb damage every turn, plus it can set Seeds on the Garchomp restoring its life as the Garchomp rages. If the Garchomp is Choiced, that situation makes for an instant switch when the Outrage is over.
    As for Stoutland, the Sand abusing varient is Choiced which enables both Ferrothorn to scout its move and then lets me send in the appropriate resist to force it out. This usually is Jellicent who not only takes no damage from its Return or Superpower, it can also cripple it or whatever switches in with a burn.
    As for Ferrothorn, as I mentioned above, it is a keystone to my defensive core that can deal with most anything. More specifically, it provides a defense against rain that Celebi cannot provide. Also, with Celebi in the team that would make half of my team weak to Bug at varying degrees and I would not have the Spike coverage that Ferrothorn provides. Sure Celebi may be good for Rotom...which I assume you mean Rotom-W, but Latias is very good at dealing with them too, so that is not my biggest concern.
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2013

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