1. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.
  2. New to the forums? Check out our Mentorship Program!
    Our mentors will answer your questions and help you become a part of the community!

Dark Miracle (A Collaboration with Gary2346)

Discussion in 'BW OU Teams' started by False Sense, Jan 23, 2013.

  1. False Sense

    False Sense

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2012
    Messages:
    402
    [​IMG]Dark Miracle[​IMG]


    [​IMG]

    Hello people of Smogon! Welcome to my 100th post RMT special! This is an RMT I've been working on for quite awhile, probably about a month or two. Unfortunately, I hit a creative block and almost abandoned the team all together before I got some help from the awesome Gary2346. Thanks to him, this team miraculously came into existence, and without him I'm sure this team would never have seen the light of day. So about the team itself...

    As you can probably tell by the large picture, this is a team based around Hydreigon. Hydreigon is well known for attacking anything that so much as moves, making one of the most destructive pokemon in existence."Destructive" is a very good word to describe this team; despite it being a Balanced, Weatherless team, it has extremely devastating capabilities. This team excels at punching holes into teams and sweeping away the remains, and is by far one of the most successful teams I have ever used, letting me reach a ladder peak of 1824. So without further ado, let's get into this RMT!

    [​IMG]TEAM BUILDING PROCESS[​IMG]

    Well, I wanted to base a team around Hydreigon, since it was an amazing pokemon that didn't really get much use. I wanted to use the Sub Hydreigon set in particular, so in goes Hydreigon.

    [​IMG]

    So what does Hydreigon do, and what can best benefit from it? Hydreigon works best at being incredibly threatening, easily destroying a vast majority of pokemon in the game. So teammates who could benefit from wrecked teams would work great. With that in mind, I added Swords Dance Lucario to clean up after Hydreigon's rampages.

    [​IMG][​IMG]

    Well that's nice and all, but the two together lacked some speed. I figured that a Choice Scarfer would be great to check faster threats. But I wanted to have a powerful revenge killer, something that could use the speed boost to sweep teams if given the chance, while being able to handle even fellow Choice Scarfers themselves... Enter Choice Scarf Latios.

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    ...And at the same time, my ideas ran out. Nothing I could come up with really fit with what I had created. After a long time of getting nowhere, I was about ready to give up, until I ended up asking for some help.

    This was where Gary2346 came in. With his suggestions, we created a beta team and worked from there. The new team members consisted of Specially Defensive Rotom-W, Physically Defensive Forretress, and Life Orb Mamoswine. Also, Gary convinced me to switch the Sub Hydreigon set to a Mixed one, which I have to agree was a great idea. Hydreigon now has no safe switch-ins, making it incredibly dangerous and capable of easily destroying teams.

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    After some testing with this team, we noticed a couple of things. One, Rotom-W, unsurprisingly, worked great. Two, Forretress is awful. Can't do anything. Three, Mamoswine's job was kind of done by the other teammates, so it wasn't really necessary on the team. We decided to address Forretress first. We ended up deciding on Physically Defensive Skarmory as a replacement, being able to do everything Forretress did, (bar Rapid Spin, which we didn't need) and more, most importantly not being set up bait. And so we welcomed Skarmory to the group.

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    And now we come to the last pokemon. Looking over the team, it didn't look like we had any glaring weaknesses. We tossed around several ideas, such as trappers or similar things, but we found out something during testing that we didn't have covered: Bulky Waters. Nothing we had could effectively kill them, as our strongest attacks, like Hydreigon's Draco Meteor and Rotom's Volt Switch, had obvious drawbacks that Bulky Waters could take advantage of. So we needed something that could take them out quickly, as well as being helpful in general. Gary2346 found the perfect solution: Offensive Celebi.

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    At this point, the team performed outstandingly, and had very few notable weaknesses. There was, however, one HUGE weakness; Volcarona. That murderer moth which is almost as annoying as that cockroach infestation I had to deal with a while back can sweep clean through the whole team with little resistance. With Quiver Dance it became capable of both destroying all of the team and tanking all of their hits. Clearly something had to be done about this. Luckily for us the kind people of Smogon provided numerous solutions to our problem. While they wer all nice suggestions, we decided that the one that best fit into the team was none other than Novaray's Bulky Gyarados. While this would mean a tragic farewell to our beloved washing machine, we feel that it is for the best.

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    The team did pretty well at this point; however, it seemed that with the addition of Gyarados we were more vulnerable on the special side of things. Many people suggested Heatran over Skarmory, to cover up the weaknesses that Gyarados opened up. This would also give us a good sun counter, and form a great core with Gyarados. However, we tested this idea, and it simply didn't work out the way we expected. Heatran and Gyarados together have no reliable recovery, something vital to a good defensive core. Strangely, the core was easily torn apart strong threats like Terrakion or Thunduru-T, who could strike their weaknesses hard before they could retaliate. Heatran just didn't seem to be right for the team; but without it, Gyarados alone left us weak to powerful special attacks, and without Gyarados we were slaughtered by Volcarona. It seemed the team was in a very bad situation...

    ...Until Gary2346 had a stroke of genius. The problem, we found, wasn't in the defensive core, it was our offense that was lacking. Our revenge killer, Latios, we found to be excellent, but actually not needed. Everything it checks was easily handled by another teammate. But it couldn't handle Volcarona. So Gary proposed another powerful dragon over Latios... Choice Scarf Salamence. Salamence provided us with a check to Volcarona, additional physical power, a great revenge killer and a deadly sweeper all in one. Now, Salamence and Gyarados are both weak to Stealth Rocks, and we were still specially weak, so we decided to bring back Rotom-W to patch that up. In addition, Shurtugal made a suggestion of making Skarmory Specially Defensive to make us less weak to powerful Draco Meteors and the like. This turned out to be a fantastic idea, as Skarmory is capable of taking more hits in general and is a great asset to the team.

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]


    [​IMG]INDIVIDUAL ANALYSIS[​IMG]

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    [​IMG][​IMG]
    Hydreigon @ Life Orb [​IMG]
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 Atk
    Mild Nature
    - Draco Meteor
    - Fire Blast
    - Superpower
    - Roost/Earthquake

    The star of the team; Hydreigon is undoubtably a monster. Now, a lot of people think that Hydreigon has no real purpose in OU; it's outclassed by Latios, which has better speed, special attack, and typing, and the other dragons like Dragonite and Salamence can sweep teams at a moments notice. So what can Hydreigon do? Simple: destroy. This thing literally has no counters, thanks to it's great mixed stats and it's fantastic movepool. Hydreigon can pretty much break through any defensive pokemon, any defensive core, and anything it can hit with practically no effort. It's just devestating.

    The moveset here is pretty standard. Draco Meteor coming from Hydreigon wrecks everything that doesn't resist it or have good special bulk. Even then, pretty much everything loses over half their health to the Meteors. The rest of the moveset is what makes Hydreigon so dangerous. Fire Blast roasts the steel types trying to tank a Draco Meteor. Fire Blast is even capable of decimating Steels after the Draco Meteor drop, which is great for luring in those annoying Ferrothorns and blowing them up. Superpower gives Hydreigon the amazing ability to break through special walls like Blissey and Tyranitar, things that before BW2 Hydreigon could never hope to touch. Roost is used over Earthquake so that Hydreigon can stay alive longer throughout the match and continue it's reign of terror. Earthquake has it's uses, but the rest of the team handles what Earthquake would cover well enough. Teams without a strong, fast attackers with super effective attacks have difficulty handling Hydreigon, because without them Hydreigon is free to spam it's attacks until it drops. It's also deceptively bulky, which is very helpful against Mamoswine who think Ice Shard can handle it.

    So Hydreigon's job on the team is to open up gaps in the opponents defenses that would be otherwise tough to crack. Once the holes are opened up, Hydreigon's teammates or even Hydreigon himself can clean up the mess. A lot of teams out there are just flat out crippled by one of Hydreigon's rampages, to the point where the rest is just easy pickings.


    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    [​IMG][​IMG]
    Skarmory @ Leftovers [​IMG]
    Trait: Sturdy
    EVs: 232 SDef / 252 HP / 24 Spd
    Impish Nature
    - Brave Bird
    - Spikes
    - Roost
    - Whirlwind

    This Skarmory was a suggestion from Shurtugal, and a great one at that. Even without investment, Skarmory still has huge Defense, letting it wall most physical attackers with ease. With Specially Defensive investment, it can now tank weaker special attacks much easier, and is a reliable switch into the Lati twins, something this team struggled with earlier. It can also tank Rotom-W's Volt Switches, something that loves to come in on Skarmory. Overall it's much more difficult to kill and a great supporter to the team.

    So Skarmory's moveset needs little explanation. Brave Bird is there to give Skarmory some offensive presence, and actually really hurts things weak to it. (Breloom) Spikes has been added over Stealth Rocks due to being put on Celebi, and allows Skarmory to set up lethal spikes to deal huge damage throughout the match. Roost gives Skarmory reliable recovery (Hey, something else Forretress doesn't have), which is even better on Skarmory thanks to Sturdy. Sturdy lets Skarmory be a foolproof check to basically everything in existence, since no matter how powerful it is, Skarmory can survive and phaze it out. Speaking of which, Whirlwind gives it it's almighty phazing abilities that stops sweepers in their tracks.

    Skarmory's job here is to take pretty much any and all physical attacks like a champ, which it does so amazingly. It's almost a complete shutdown to physical dragons lacking Fire Blast (Fire Fang/Punch does nothing), which is critical in this metagame. It also sets up Spikes for the team, softening foes up so the heavy hitters can finish them off.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    [​IMG][​IMG]
    Celebi @ Life Orb [​IMG]
    Trait: Natural Cure
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 56 HP / 200 Spd
    Modest Nature
    - Leaf Storm
    - Stealth Rocks
    - Hidden Power [Fire]
    - Recover

    The last member of the team to be added, and the team's "glue." Without Celebi, this team would not be able to break through the defenses of Bulky Waters. Celebi finds itself at home on the team due to it's similar abilities to Hydreigon; it's Leaf Storms are devastatingly powerful, and easily OHKO's anything weak to it, and most things neutral to it. This crushing power is the primary reason we chose this set over, say, a defensive set, as the extra power is greatly appreciated, and Defensive Celebi doesn't contribute much in terms of checking threats. In addition to being our answer to Bulky Waters, it has a good deal of other extremely helpful qualities. With Natural Cure and it's Grass typing, it's the ideal switch in to the pesky move Scald that seems to always burn everything it touches. Celebi can switch in on those, fire off Leaf Storm, and switch out like nothing happened. The same goes for other the other status'; it takes them easily, can kill whatever is in, and switch out to heal. Amazing.

    This moveset is a bit unusual, so let me explain. Leaf Storm is obvious; destroys anything that doesn't resist it, blah blah blah. Stealth Rocks has been added over Earthquake since Heatran is handled well enough by the rest of the team, and putting Stealth Rocks on Celebi allows us to have Spikes on Skarmory, which the team absolutely loves to have. Hidden Power Fire is for additional steel coverage, and lets Celebi defend itself against Scizor. Recover lets Celebi heal off Life Orb Recoil and other damage, which thanks to it's typing and good natural bulk can let it wall weaker attackers.

    Again, Celebi's role on the team is to be the glue that holds it together. It takes care of pokemon that give the team trouble, can destroy unprepared teams, can tank hits, can absorb status... yeah, it does a lot for the team.


    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    [​IMG][​IMG]
    Rotom-W @ Chesto Berry [​IMG]
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 248 HP / 28 SAtk / 228 SDef
    Calm Nature
    - Hydro Pump
    - Volt Switch
    - Thunder Wave
    - Rest

    Specially Defensive Rotom-W makes a return, and this time he's probably here to stay. Gyarados' weaknesses proved to be too much of a hassle for the team, something Rotom-W has no problem with. This Rotom is actually a Chesto Rest Rotom, which works a bit differently from the norm. While the standard Rotom-W uses Pain Split and Leftovers for recovery, this one uses Rest to fully heal itself in an instant and heal off status, letting it act as a secondary status absorber. The Chesto Berry lets it heal it's sleep condition for free once, which often is enough to let it last through the match.

    The moveset, other than the aforementioned Rest, is mostly standard. Hydro Pump is obviously very powerful, especially under Rain, and lets Rotom-W do massive damage even though it's a wall. Volt Switch does good damage to Water types (though it's not strong against Bulky Waters; that's why Celebi is here) and gives one of it's teammates a free switch-in, which can be critical in certain situations. Thunder Wave is used over Will-o-Wisp since the team overall appreciates paralysis over burn; it helps cripple dangerous pokemon like Venusaur, Volcarona, Salamence and the like and makes them easy pickings for the team. Rest lets Rotom-W heal back to full health and remove any status it has, which can be very annoying for people who think Rotom-W is finished.

    Rotom's job on the team is to help check dangerous weather teams and special attackers in general. It also helps provide the team with precious momentum that the other teammates can abuse. It does it's job flawlessly and is a great asset to the team.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    [​IMG][​IMG]
    Lucario @ Life Orb [​IMG]
    Trait: Justified
    EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 SDef
    Adamant Nature
    - Close Combat
    - ExtremeSpeed
    - Bullet Punch
    - Swords Dance

    Hey, anyone remember the Lucario from my first RMT, Project: Aura? Well, he's made a full comeback in Dark Miracle, and I think he fits better now than he did when the team was built around him! Lucario is here as the teams late game cleaner; if it gets a Swords Dance up and it's counters are gone, it's pretty much GG. This is especially true when you consider how much destruction it's teammates can cause, easily opening the way for a late game clean up. Even if it doesn't get a chance to sweep, it can still support the team by using it's double priority to pick off weaker, yet possibly dangerous, foes.

    The moveset it has is standard; Swords Dance boosts it's power to obscene levels, making it lethal. Close Combat is it's STAB move of choice, which lets it decimate anything slower than it. Extreemspeed is probably the reason why Lucario is so dangerous; at +2 it can easily pick off faster-but-frail threats that could otherwise beat Lucario, including other priority users. Bullet Punch backs Extreemspeed up by letting Lucario break through threats like Gengar, Terrakion, and other things that resist Extreemspeed and are too fast to Close Combat.

    Lucario really loves being on this team due to just how well it's teammates support it; Hydreigon, Celebi, Latios and Rotom-W break down walls that could trouble it, Rotom-W provides Paralysis support, Skarmory provides Stealth Rocks, and Celebi and Latios lure in Choice Banded pursuiters/Crunchers, which Lucario not only can set up on with ease, but actually benefits from getting hit by a Dark type attack; Justified boosts Lucario's attack if that ever happens. At +3, Lucario will slaughter just about everything in sight....

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    [​IMG][​IMG]
    Salamence @ Choice Scarf [​IMG]
    Trait: Moxie
    EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd / 4 SAtk
    Naive Nature
    - Outrage
    - Dragon Claw
    - Earthquake
    - Fire Blast

    This is the latest, and probably last, new member of the team; Salamence. I really can't believe that I, or anyone else beside Gary2346, didn't think of this sooner. When you think about it, everything that Salamence could possibly want is provided by it's teammates. Hazards? Skarmory and Celebi. A vicious wallbreaker? Hydreigon. Paralysis support? Rotom-W. A secondary sweeper that has great synergy with it? Lucario. In return, Salamence provides us with a check to Volcarona, an answer to faster threats, and a fantastic way of taking advantage of the gaping holes this team makes for it.

    The moveset here is standard; Outrage is it's sweeping move; use it, get a kill, start a killing spree. Dragon Claw is weaker, but is great for the times when the opponents Steel is still alive and Outrage isn't favorable. Earthquake destroys steel types and really hurts Jirachi. Fire Blast is for those annoying Ferrothorns who want to switch in. The combination of moves here makes Salamence a lot like Hydreigon; nothing can truly switch in safely. Making a mistake against it will hurt badly, especially if it's partners set up hazards already.

    Salamence is probably what the team needed all along. It's ability to turn weakened, but still fully alive teams into dust at a moments notice is perfect for what it's teammates are capable of. It's destructive powers are a perfect fit for the team, and it's brought the team that much more success.


    [​IMG]Credits[​IMG]

    Thanks for taking the time to read our RMT! I had a lot of fun making this with Gary2346, and I think it turned out great!

    Special Thanks to Gary2346 for all of his amazing help in bringing this team to life. Not to mention, he also put together the RMT's beautiful presentation. Thanks for all your help!

    Also, special thanks to LucaroarkZ for some help he gave me early on in this project!


    I hope you liked this RMT, and hopefully you'll give some nice feedback as well! Any ideas that would make the team better would be much appreciated! Thanks for any and all help you can give! Oh, and be sure to Luvdisc if you liked!​
  2. Cinco Diablo

    Cinco Diablo formerly Dr Ciel

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2012
    Messages:
    1,226
    Hey guys, got the request from False Sense, so here I am.

    Anyways, this is an excellent, and very well presented team, so I would like to congratulate you guys on that. Anyways, I see some flaws that can be fixed, and hopefully my suggestions can help out here. When I take a look at this team, I see that Quiver Dance Volcarona is a huge threat, with a set of Quiver Dance/Giga Drain/Bug Buzz and Fire Blast/Fiery Dance, it can literally rip right through your team, and without any spinblockers, you're in for some trouble. To help remedy this situation, I would like to recommend a Choice Scarf Terrakion in place of your current Latios. Terrakion easily solves your Volcarona problem by OHKOing it with a STAB Stone Edge. Terrakion also helps you against Dragonite, and Choice Scarf Salamence, both of which can be significant threats. The one downside to using this over Latios is that you lose a way to KO Chlorophyll Venusaur, but this team has ways around it, so you should be fine. I can't believe that this is the only suggestion I have, but this is a very excellent team. I hope I helped with this lone suggestion. Once again, excellent team and good luck! Also, Luvdisc'd

    Set (open)

    [​IMG]
    Terrakion @ Choice Scarf Lv. 100 -- Justified

    Nature: Jolly - EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd

    - Earthquake
    - Close Combat
    - X-Scissor
    - Stone Edge


    ~Dr Ciel~ (The doctor is OUT)
  3. False Sense

    False Sense

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2012
    Messages:
    402
    Hi Dr. Ciel! Thanks for the rate!

    Choice Scarf Terrakion, huh? I've got some mixed feelings about that...

    Well, it does solve the Volcarona issue, which is a problem but not totally unmanageable. It also has great STAB coverage and is a great overall threat.

    However, I'm not quite sure about it. Putting it in over Latios opens up yet another Fighting weakness, making our only real resist being Celebi, who while bulky, probably does not want to take a lot of hits. If we added Terrakion, I could see an opposing Lucario being a serious issue, since a boosted Bullet Punch gets rid of Terrakion in an instant, and if Skamory is slightly damaged Lucario can break through it. Also, Terrakion misses out on certain aspects that Latios possesses, such as a secondary Draco Meteor and Trick. Draco Meteor is extremely helpful since the few things that can take it are often removed/weakened by the rest of the team throughout the match. Trick is especially useful for when a wall needs to be crippled, a sweeper stopped in it's tracks, and for giving Latios free access to all it's moves.

    I'll certainly consider it, and I'll talk to Gary2346 about it, but Latios seems to fit better in this team better overall than Terrakion.
  4. Electrolyte

    Electrolyte For every king that died, oh, they would crown another
    is an official Team Rateris a Contributor to Smogonis a Battle Server Moderator
    Mentor

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2012
    Messages:
    1,929
    Hey False Sense!

    This is a very solid team; from the moment I battled you, I knew you had some talent inside you ;) I really don't think any pokemon changes are necessary, as your team fits together really well, and I wouldn't want to pull apart your synergy. The only problems I can see is a slight weakness to Volcarona and DragMag- as Skarmory is the only one preventing opposing DDance Dragon Spam from doing a lot of damage, however Latios can probably manage both and you have a lot of ways to prevent Magnezone from trapping Skarmory. To help you make sure you can beat DragMag, though, you could give Skarmory a Shed Shell, but since DragMag is rare, it might not have as much use as Lefties. To maybe help beat Volcarona a bit easier, I suggest you use Surf over HP Fire on Latios. You've already got two magnificent steel killers in Hydriegon and Celebi, and Lucario can dent steels with CC as well. Surf, on the other hand, will grant some extra leverage against Rain / Sand, as well as hit Volc / Tran hard.

    Another really minor detail I'm notcing is that a lot pf your sweepers are reckless- they can tear up huge holes, but are often found open, frail, an weak afterwards- making you susceptible to setup (which is why Volcarona might be problematic, as well as DDancers, AgiliThundurus, or Growth Venasaur.) Two of your main attackers, Hydriegon and Celebi, are really only one / two time use- as their stat drop recoil will make you lose momentum very quickly. To solve this problem, I suggest you give Hydriegon U-Turn over EQ. Earthquake is relatively useless for you; it really only beats Rainrachi, as Heatran can be superpowered and Regular Rachi can be Fire Blasted. U-Turn, on the other hand, not only lets you scout but also pivot smoothly after Draco / Superpower spam, and decrease momentum loss. Another thing you can do is to give Celebi Giga Drain over Leaf Storm. Giga Drain is more reliable for a balanced team like yours, as it not only still hits bulky waters very hard but it also recovers you in the need for you to Recover, and at least offset the LO recoil. Giga Drain also lets you nail Water types but still be able to prevent yoursefl from getting trapped by Scizor- as you won't be weakened by a SpA drop.

    Again, these are just some really minor nitpicks. Really solid team. Good luck! I hope to battle you again in the future ;)

    Edit: lol

    Forgot about what monstrous power Celebi has. Never mind then.

    To beat Jirachi, you can use Rotom-W to tank a paralysis, and the. thunder wave the Jirachi yourself. You x4 resist Iron Head, and with rest you won't have to worry about paraflinching. Also, Celebi has Earth Power, which definitely does hit Jirachi very hard, and Hydriegon's Superpower / Fire Blast or Lucario's Close Combat.
  5. False Sense

    False Sense

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2012
    Messages:
    402
    Hi Electrolyte! Thanks for the rate!

    Nice to hear such good comments! So about your individual suggestions...

    Shed Shell on Skarmory is something I can certainly see the use of, but overall I don't think it's that good of an idea. Like you said, DragMag isn't too common, and leftovers has much greater use overall. I think it can be worked around without Shed Shell.

    Surf over HP Fire sounds pretty good. It's really not that often that I use it, so I can see it being useful. I do have a few issues with it. For one, it makes it kind of useless against Steels unless they have really low Special Defense, and leaves Latios vulnerable to Scizor. Also, it can't touch Ferrothorn. (Though it can Trick it.) However, it does offer nice neutral coverage, hits Volcarona pretty hard (unfortunately QD boosts and Sun can lower it's potency), and gets a boost from common Rain teams. Not to mention the ability to hurt Heatran. I'll be sure to give it a try; sounds nice!

    U-Turn on Hydreigon is certainly an interesting idea. It misses out on hurting Rain Jirachi, which is pretty annoying, but the momentum it can gain could be very helpful. I'll give it a try for sure!

    Giga Drain over Leaf Storm; Well, I'll admit that Leaf Storm is one of the reasons we chose Celebi. Giga Drain lacks some of the punch that Leaf Storm has. Remember our battle, when Celebi OHKO'd your Landorus-T? That's the kind of power Leaf Storm has. It also OHKO's most Tyranitar, which not only is very helpful, but lets Celebi defend itself from one of it's greatest enemies. I'll probably have to talk to Gary about this one, though I think he'll say the same thing.

    Well, overall really nice and valid suggestions! Thanks for your help in making this team the best it can be!

    Edit: Well, glad you saw my point on Celebi. With Leaf Storm, Celebi just fits in beautifully with the rest of the team by virtue of just how destructive it is. Like I said in the introduction, the team is interesting because it manages to pull off being both balanced, yet incredibly powerful at the same time. The sheer power Celebi provides, as well as it's ability to lure in and kill a good number of threats, fits the teams destructive nature of tearing things to shreds while tanking their hits, until a point is reached where they simply can't withstand the brutal offensive pressure.
  6. Eggbert

    Eggbert

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2009
    Messages:
    1,076
    I like the use of hydreigon, something seldom seen nowadays. Anyways, the Volcarona problem is more severe than you might think. Since half of your team can be set up on once they use their 140 base power move, Volcarona will have guaranteed setup against your team. After that, nothing can stop it since it OHKOs everything at +1. If your opponent has a dedicated Volcarona team with Xatu or a good rapid spinner you will be at a disadvantage.

    Looking at your team, there is one member that does not fit well and that is Skarmory. The rest of your team is very offensive, but skarmory has little offense and only sets up stealth rock, not spikes. Your team isn't suited to support it, a more offensive teammate would work better. The simple solution is to run air balloon Heatran over Skarm. It checks dragons with its balloon intact (with latios revenging them if it is not), sets up stealth rock, walls Venusaur (timid can outspeed latios and sweep you), and counters Volcarona with the appropriate support move. With this change you will have much more momentum and much less vulnerability to Volcarona.

    Heatran @ Air Balloon
    Modest
    224 Hp / 252 SpA / 32 Spe
    - Stealth Rock
    - Fire Blast
    - Hidden Power [Ice] / Toxic
    - Roar
  7. False Sense

    False Sense

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2012
    Messages:
    402
    Hi! Thanks for the rate Eggbert!

    I'm really tempted to agree with you on Heatran; it would really help out against Sun teams and Volcarona in general. But there is a problem, and it's the same problem I have with Terrakion over Latios; an increased vulnerability to fighting types. Heatran is not a physical wall, which Skarmory is. This is critical to keeping dangerous physical attackers like Terrakion, Dragonite, Garchomp, Breloom, etc. at bay. Heatran struggles against fighting and ground attacks, which all of the above can carry. The Air Balloon is only helpful for one switch in before it gets popped by an attack. Once that happens Heatran is totally vulnerable to all sorts of attacks.

    Well, bottom line is that without Skarmory, the team struggles much more against these very common threats, where as with it we struggle with primarily one pokemon, and we have ways to work around it. I think I would rather have Skarmory on this team than Heatran, sorry.
  8. Nova

    Nova Deft
    is a member of the Site Staffis an official Team Rateris a Smogon IRC AOPis a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Mentor

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    1,467
    Hi False Sense

    This is a very solid and unique team you have here. I really like your use of some Pokemon that aren't too common nowadays such as Hydreigon and Offensive Celebi. As previously mentioned, Quiver Dance Volcarona is a major threat to your team. After a Quiver Dance, he can really pack a punch to your team with Fire Blast and Bug Buzz. Making some changes to your team to compensate for this Volcarona weakness would open you up to more weaknesses to Fighting-type. The best bet I think is trying a unique set in Bulky Support Gyarados with a moveset of Thunder Wave / Taunt / Dragon Tail / Waterfall over Rotom-W. Gyarados resists both of Volcarona's STABs while being a solid check to opposing Fighting due to both resistance and Intimidate. Thunder Wave helps slow down your opponents which is very useful for Hydreigon, Celebi, and Lucario, all of which are not the fastest of attackers. With paralysis support they can now outspeed many threats they could previously not outspeed. Taunt prevents your opponent from setting up hazards, statusing Gyarados, or trying to set up on him. Dragon Tail is a nice move to phaze out the opponent while dealing damage and forces the opponent to take extra Stealth Rock damage. Lastly, Waterfall is a solid STAB attack that deals solid damage even uninvested due to his high base 125 Attack. Gyarados makes a decent check to sun teams, and together him and Celebi can take on most rain teams as there is no more Tornadus-T.

    Now for some smaller changes. I think Roost should be the primary option in the last moveslot for Hydreigon. Hydreigon already has great coverage with its 3 attacks and Roost left it heal off Life Orb recoil, giving you increased survivabilty. I'm also going with Electrolyte's suggestion of Surf over HP Fire on Latios. Surf offers generally better coverage than does HP Fire, lets Latios hit things like Heatran and you won't have to sacrifice a Speed IV which is crucial as it would cause you to lose a potential speed tie against opposing Scarfed Latios.

    Hope I helped and good luck with your team!


    Set:
    Show Hide
    Gyarados (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Intimidate
    EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spd
    Impish Nature (+Def -SAtk)
    -Thunder Wave
    -Taunt
    -Dragon Tail
    -Waterfall



    tl;dr
    Show Hide
    Rotom-W ----> Bulky Support Gyarados
    Roost on Hydreigon
    Hidden Power Fire on Latios ----> Surf
  9. FallenFoliage

    FallenFoliage

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2007
    Messages:
    38
    Hey there, great team!

    As much as I love this team and how it utilizes many pokes that are argued to have ''better users'' of their roles. I think you get the idea of how much openings Volcorona has to come in and wreak havoc, so the Heatran fits in a lot better than Skarmory.

    Another glaring weakness I see is the Dragons. MixMence especially (becoming popular). As you will almost always have to sacrifice a poke to get Latios in safely to RK. And even then with right predictions can someone get Mence back to sweeping. For example: switching Blissey in for the Meteor, using Wish support, and having that dragon annoying you at full health again.

    I see Jellicent as the perfect solution to DD abuse, and it slow MixMence down a bit with the right predictions. This would mean you would have to lose a bit of firepower, and I'm afraid that's gonna have to be from Lucario.

    Jellicent @ Leftovers
    Bold natured - Water Absorb ability
    248 HP / 216 Def / 44 Spe
    - Scald
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Recover
    - Taunt

    You'll be able to SpinBlock, which will work beatifully with Skarm(if skarm stays). Also, if you look carefully, Jellicent covers quite a few of your team's weaknesses. And your team covers Jellicent's in return. In a very favorable manner, even.

    I hope I helped!
    Luvdisc'd for originality.
  10. Cherub Agent

    Cherub Agent Yeah, well. The Dude abides
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2009
    Messages:
    3,014
    This team is incredibly solid, and I just have one qualm. And that's Skarmory running Stealth Rock over Spikes. This team would absolutely adore Spikes support and Skarmory is so solid at setting them up. I think you can out Stealth Rock over Earth Power on Celebi. You already have Hydreigon, Rotom-W and Lucario who can outspeed and OHKO Heatran, so I don't think that Earth Power is neccessary.
  11. False Sense

    False Sense

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2012
    Messages:
    402
    Wow, thanks for all the rates guys! It's amazing to see this RMT getting so much attention!

    Now I'm still waiting to hear back from Gary2346 about all your ideas, so I'm going to try to handle all this myself for now. Since there are a lot of rates, I'll try to address them all at once. Clearly, the major (possibly only) flaw of this team is it's vulnerability to Volcarona. The killer moth can easily set up and sweep the rest of the team. Well, to be fair, the team has ways of preventing a clean 6-0, but the damage it can do usually is hard to compensate for.

    Many of you have suggested a new defensive pokemon over one of Skarmory or Rotom-W. The problem with several of these ideas is that the replacements don't wall the same type of attackers; for example, Novaray's Bulky Gyarados is a physical wall. It doesn't want to take powerful special attacks, and without Rotom-W to take them we now become vulnerable to threats like Lati@s.

    What I'm thinking may be the best idea is a reworking of the defensive core. In other words, find a new defensive core to replace Skarmory and Rotom-W. This way we can make sure to have both a physical and special wall that can deal with a wide variety of threats, and most importantly, handle Volcarona. I'm not sure exactly what two pokemon would be a good idea, and I'd like to hear Gary's thoughts on this, so in the meantime if anyone has an idea for a two-pokemon-defensive-core that would work well on this team, I'd love to hear about it. Or, if you have a better idea that doesn't involve replacing two team members, I'd love to hear that too. Keep the rates coming! We want to make this team the best it can possibly be!
  12. Reymedy

    Reymedy They live and die by my command.
    is a Tutoris an official Team Rateris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2012
    Messages:
    1,454
    This won't be a rate, maybe I'll edit the comment, but why not just change Skarmory for Landorus-T ?

    You got a wall of the same caliber, as well as a way to kill Volcarona. I'm pretty sure a Rock Polish set (not a double dance) with SR would be a perfect fit to break wall or sweep late game.
    You could also go for the full defensive set. I'll think about it to give you a better raten this was just food for thoughts.

    PS : If you're afraid of not having a steel wall against Dragon, keep in mind that you already have the fastest one in OU, and I don't like fixing rules like "get a Steel etc". If it bothers you, you can still put Scizor over Lucario.
  13. Superpowerdude

    Superpowerdude based wooper #dealwithit
    is an official Team Rateris a Smogon Media Contributor
    Mentor

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2012
    Messages:
    1,196
    Hey!

    As a lot of people have mentioned sun teams are a big problem and so is Volcarona. An offfensive Volcarona can pretty much sweep you at +2 because it outspeeds your whole team, and can hit all your members super effectively with Fire Blast / Giga Drain / Bug Buzz. With your team being weatherless sun sweepers +2 speed and boosted Fire-type attacks will demolish this team seeing as a combination of Grass, Fire and Ice hit all your team members super effectively. These types are very common on sun teams.

    The simplest way to fix this is using a Defensive Heatran>Skarmory it preforms very similar rols to Skarmory, namely getting up Stealth Rock and phazing with Roar, however with its great typing it resists a lot of moves from sun teams, as well as all of offensive Volcarona's moves. With Latios and Heatran you can hang in there with sun teams easily despite being weatherless. Lava Plumes burn rate is also quite handy in opening up more set up oppurtunities for Lucario. Without Skarmory you do lose a physical wall and a Fighting-type counter but thats where my next suggestion comes in. Plus Heatran gives you a lot of help against sun and volcarona which you definitely need.

    Now to get a better Fighting-type resist I would suggest a Defensive Celebi with Psychic / Giga Drain / Recover / Hidden Power [Fire] with max HP and Def as well as Psychic you can do much better against fighting-type Pokemon. With Heatran and Rotom-W you don't need any more specially defensive Pokemon and with Latios, Hydriegon and Lucario your team already has an extremely offensive Fighting/Dark/Psychic core so using Celebi as a more physically bulky Pokemon is worth it. Recover is obviously there for recovery, Giga Drain is a stab move and psuedo recovery, and Hidden Power [Fire] lets you beat steels

    Good luck with the team I hope I Helped

    Sets
    Show Hide

    [​IMG]
    Heatran @ Leftovers | Flash Fire
    Calm | 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Sp Def
    Lava Plume | Stealth Rock | Roar | Toxic

    [​IMG]
    Celebi @ Leftovers | Natural Cure
    Bold | 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Def
    Giga Drain | Psychic | Recover | Hidden Power [Fire]

    TL:DR
    Show Hide
    Show Hide

    Skarmory--->Heatran

    Celebi
    .Tinkerbell Set--->Defensive Set



    ~Superpowerdude
  14. Takion

    Takion

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2012
    Messages:
    141
    Hey bro!

    Just wanted to say you have a fantastic core, as Latios and Lucario are great compliments to each other.On your Latios: I would avoid running hidden power fire, the reason being is that the EV spread to run it will decrease your speed by one point. This alsos Scarf Gengars and other Scarf Latios to come in and revenge kill it. You already have fire blast on Hydreigon so no need to worry! I also have to agree with Remedy, using Landorus-T would be more beneficial to your team, and it can decrease an attack of a physical attack which in turn could allow you to set-up.

    I run a similar team as yours, and was able to reach 1917 (#48 on Showdown). If you ever wanted to collaborate, give me a shout!

    And Luvdisc!
  15. False Sense

    False Sense

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2012
    Messages:
    402
    Thanks for all the rates and ideas everyone!

    Ok, so me and Gary have been discussing all your suggestions, and I've updated the RMT with the changes we agreed on.

    -Novaray's Bulky Gyrados has taken the place of Rotom-W
    -Hydreigon now has Roost over Earthquake.
    -Skarmory now runs Spikes over Stealth Rocks
    -Celebi now runs Stealth Rocks over Earth Power
    -Latios now runs Surf over HP Fire

    That's all for now! If you have any more ideas on how to improve the team, don't hesitate to let us know! Thanks to everyone for their contributions to Dark Miracle!
  16. Dwayne

    Dwayne

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2012
    Messages:
    25
    Hi, This isn't really a rate but more of a suggestion

    This is a solid team and i love the use of hydreigon and though most of your threats are already covered well there is just a few nitpicks that i would like to point and change:

    1) Run a rash nature on you hydreigon over mild. Why take more damage from priority mach punch and ice shard than necessary.

    2) Switch Superpower to EQ on Hydreigon. Reason being Sub CM Jirachi once set up becomes quite the annoyance to your team and your only phazers are taken down easily to a thunder. EQ on hydreigon is probably your best bet at hitting it for SE damage.

    Speaking of Rachi another way to counter it safely if it doesnt carry water pulse is Landorus-T so you could try out Remedy's suggestion if you're up for dual intimidate.

    I'm gonna use this team and see if there is anything else i can find and get back to you.

    P.S nothing on your team can take a hit from a specs draco from the Lati Twins which is where Scizor>Luke comes into place and you still get your priority in terms of bullet punch so an SD scizor can tank hits much better and retaliate so you might want to try it out

    Good Luck!
  17. Shurtugal

    Shurtugal The Enterpriser.
    is a Pre-Contributor

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2011
    Messages:
    1,302
    This is a pretty cool team!

    I really have a problem with the description of Skarm there: you said you used it over Forretress because Forrey has no offensive pressure... but Skarm has no offensive pressure either...?

    Ok, besides that minor off put, this team is really great. However, I find its a bit more defensive than my liking. So I'm going to give you changes to make it a bit more offensive, and at the same time I'm going to try to fix some of your teams weaknesses. Let me establish what I find this team struggles with:

    Tornadus-I (or Therian on PO): Specs Hurricane kills every switch in. I believe that even Scarf Latios also falls short on enough strength to OHKO at 100% (I could be wrong, but in my experiences, Scarf Latios is just super weak).

    Specially-Based Dragons (example: Specs Lati@s): You can't switch into them at all. You can only revenge kill them with Latios, and they can always switch into their steel resist and then your forced to sack something to them again once they get another safe switch in, which isn't really hard unless you, by miracle, can set up +2 on Lucario (which although its threatenenig at +2, its really hard to set up: not to mention without "quick" hazards, it struggles to muscle in those KO's).


    Okay, so this leads me to my first suggestion: Deoxys-Defense over Celebi. I understand that replacing Celebi leaves you Keldeo weak but don't worry; I plan on fixing that :P

    The DeoD spread I'm going to recommend is going to run Thunder Wave, so it can help Hydregion and Lucario outspeed threats and KO. Furthermore, it provides faster hazards, which is godsend support for both Lucario and Hydregion.

    DeoD set (open)

    Deoxys-Defense @ Mental Herb
    Trait: Pressure
    Nature: Jolly or Timid
    EVs: 252 Hp / 66 SDef / 192 Spe
    - Thunder Wave
    - Taunt
    - Stealth Rock
    - Spikes

    The EVs have an explanation: because TWave can cut speed and because Mental Herb blocks Taunt, I find you don't need that much speed. The special defense investment is so you can take hits from Venu better (and hopefully TWave it). You can put them into defense if you wish however, seeing as how you can live those SE from Terrakion better.


    As I mentioned before, you're now a bit Scarf Keldeo weak, and you can barely sponge water attacks in rain. For these reasons, I nominate Life Orb'ed Latias over Scarf Latios. Why yes, you lose a scarfer, I have a plan for that too. So stick with me!

    Latias counters Keldeo all day and all night long. With the HP evs, its bulky enough to take hits from sun too and rain hits.

    Latias (open)

    Latias @ Life Orb
    Trait: Levitate
    Nature: Timid
    EVs: 72 HP / 184 SAtk / 252 Spe
    - Roost
    - Draco Meteor
    - Psyshock
    - Surf


    Okay, so I'm going to suggest you run Scarf Moxie Gyarados over your current set, if only to supplement another scarfer. It really benefits from the hazards and it also currently shits on all forms of rain teams. You'll find that DeoD can paralyze enough things and you'll also find that DeoD is not too shabby at keeping rocks off the field too (early game anyway).

    Gyara set (open)

    Gyarados @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Moxie
    Nature: Jolly
    EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe / 4 SDef
    - Waterfall
    - Earthquake
    - Ice Fang
    - Stone Edge


    So, the last thing I'm going to suggest is Jirachi over Skarm. It offers paralysis support, as well as wish support, and it can tank specially based dragons / hurricane a lot more efficently than Skarm could.

    Jirachi (open)

    Jirachi @ Leftovers
    Trait: Serene Grace
    Nature: Adamant
    EVs: 146 Hp / 148 Atk / 216 Spe
    - Wish
    - Iron Head
    - Body Slam / Thunder Wave
    - Fire Punch


    It looks like a lot of changes, but in essence I don't feel so. The Latias / Gyara shifts were just a shift in playstyle, and I feel the major changes I made were Jirachi / Celebi.

    I wish you luck!

    ~! Shurtugal
  18. False Sense

    False Sense

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2012
    Messages:
    402
    Hi Shurtugal! Thanks for the rate!

    Ok, first off to clarify on Skarmory; Forretress can do NOTHING to anything that wants to set up on it, other than maybe Gyro Ball or Volt Switch out. Skarmory packs a surprisingly powerful Brave Bird and the ability to phaze, preventing things from setting up in it's face. Perhaps "offensive pressure" wasn't the right term, but hopefully I've made myself clear.

    Now about your numerous suggestions.

    First off, Tornadus is pretty rare and I do believe Latios can OHKO with Draco Meteor. Yeah, nothing can switch in on it, but it's a small enough threat that I think can be ignored.

    Now Special Dragons are annoying. Usually Skarmory switches into a Draco Meteor and I work with the Special Attack drop, so we are admittedly desperate in that regard.

    Now, I find it interesting that you say the team is too defensive to your liking; I disagree. I think it LACKS defense, which is the root of the Special Dragons problem. In case you didn't notice, this is NOT a hyper offense team; this is a Balanced team. It pains me to say this, but your suggestions basically remove any sense of "Balance" from the team and turn it into a Hyper Offense team. Don't get me wrong; I like the ideas and I'm sure that they would work well, but your changing the entire playstyle of the team and removing any sort of defensive structure the team has. I'm sorry if this sounds harsh, but I think we would like to keep the team Balanced rather than Hyper Offensive.
  19. Shurtugal

    Shurtugal The Enterpriser.
    is a Pre-Contributor

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2011
    Messages:
    1,302
    It's okay. It's my fault for rating a team that doesn't match my own playstyle (heavy offense). Maybe you should switch Skarm to SDef so you can take Draco's better (since Gyara can take physical hits anyway).

    Good Luck :)
  20. False Sense

    False Sense

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2012
    Messages:
    402
    Yeah, sorry if I sounded mean there. I'm sure that if this was a Hyper Offense team those changes would be great.

    Speccially Defensive Skarmory sounds like it could be pretty useful, actually. I'll have to talk to Gary about it, since we already have some ideas to improve the team in the works. : )
  21. Trinitrotoluene

    Trinitrotoluene ♪~ i don't want to know what she did; she is not who i am ~♪
    is a Tutoris a Community Contributoris a Team Rater Alumnus
    Mentor

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2010
    Messages:
    1,121
    Well, I got your request, False Sense. This should be a relatively quick rate from me, considering that quite a bit has already been said. For one, Skarmory is a sitting duck for any competent sun team, and it doesn't even help when it comes to stopping Volcarona. While Spikes support is appreciated by your team, the immense set-up opportunity it leaves for Volcarona is something that your team hates even more. Underneath the sun, a Timid LO Volcarona with no Quiver Dance boosts can 2HKO your Gyarados after one round of Stealth Rock damage, and after a boost, that 2HKO suddenely becomes a OHKO. Gyarados suddenely doesn't seem like a solid counter to Volcarona anymore, huh? Yes, you can stop it with Latios (by means of Trick), but that costs you your revenge killer, which could be detrimental to you further on down the line. With that train of thought trundling along (gee, alliterative appeal much?), I'd like to see this team use a specially defensive Heatran over Skarmory. This change gives you a reliable answer to Volcarona and Venusaur, and sun teams by extension, as well as a better SR setter, permitting your Celebi to run another move over Stealth Rock. In addition, specially defensive Heatran stops opposing Latios from getting a kill (or at least severely crippling one member) each time it switches in, thanks to Heatran's immense special defense. Heatran also synergizes well with Celebi and Gyarados, forming a potent defense core that teams of many archetypes struggle to break past. DragMag teams, once problematic for your team, can't exactly rely on Magnezone to do Heatran in, taking a worry off your and Gary2346's heads. Now, about that newly-opened slot on Celebi's movepool. I'd recommend running Thunder Wave in that freshly-opened slot. This helps your team members, aside from Latios, which benefits indirectly, immensely by helping to compensate for their lowered Speed. Alternatively, you could opt to use Perish Song in the newly-opened slot, if only to give hell to noobish Baton Passers and those people that tend to rely on a last-Pokemon set-up window to beat your team. A summarized list of changes can be found below.

    Set:
    [​IMG]
    Heatran @ Leftovers | Flash Fire
    Calm | 252 HP / 248 SpD / 8 Spe | 0 Atk
    Stealth Rock | Roar | Flamethrower | Protect


    Nitpicks:
    • [​IMG] ----> [​IMG]
    • [​IMG]
      • Stealth Rock ----> Thunder Wave / Perish Song

    Anyways, I lied when I said this was going to be a quick rate. Hope this helps you and Gary2346.

    Luvdisc'd.
  22. TheStriker

    TheStriker

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2012
    Messages:
    117
    Hi False Sense & Gary2346

    This is a very solid team with the suggestions you have had so I only have these switches. Change Skarmory's EVs to Specially Defensive 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SDef with Calm Nature. Wobbefut is so uncommon, you can get the extra bulk to avoid some special 2HKOs instead of wasting valuable EVs. This will make switching into Draco Meteors much easier. Mamoswine is the biggest threat to this team at the moment as the combo of Ice Shard + Stone Edge + Earthquake + Icicle Crash will plow through this teams core and is even a bigger threat as this set will be used 90% of the time. Gyarados willl be easily killed even though it resists EQ and will be fainted by a Icicle Crash because of SR. Skarmory is very valuable and is a solid member of this team. Latios needs to be at full health so I am not giving a suggestion, but be aware of the mammoth. Anyways I also recommend Heatran over Skarmory. Sun teams are a major threat to this team. TNT and Intergalactic are right.

    [​IMG]

    Heatran @ Leftovers
    Flame Body
    252 HP / 252 SDef / 4 Spe
    0 Atk IVs
    Stealth Rock | Roar | Lava Plume | Protect

    Celebi can run Perish Song or Healing Wish with the empty slot now. Great team!
  23. False Sense

    False Sense

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2012
    Messages:
    402
    Ok, we've updated the team for what I think is the last time. Unless of course, people continue to rate.

    So for the changes, we did try out the suggestion of Heatran that everyone suggested, but we found it to have flaws that the team didn't really like. We also found that Gyarados, while a good pokemon, couldn't really fill the void Rotom-W left, so we added Rotom-W back in. We'd like to apologize to Novaray at this point for taking his suggestion and then retracting it. It was a great suggestion, but the team couldn't really utilize it well enough.

    So to check Volcarona, we decided on something that Gary2346 came up with; Choice Scarf Salamence over Latios. This thing works wonderfully on the team, and I can't believe that we overlooked this extremely obvious yet effective solution.

    So, I hope you all liked the team; if you have any suggestions, feel free to rate! Thanks to everyone for their contributions! Also, Luvdisc if you haven't already!
  24. Leftiez

    Leftiez *Stars*

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2012
    Messages:
    1,000
    Hi there.
    It is a very interesting and very solid team, I can't really rate your team because it seems to correct, but I see a big weakness against Reuniclus Bulky CM, you have nothing to kill him after a Calm Mind because Skarmory is 2HKO by Focus Blast and if you fall on a counter after whirlwind or roar, you are forced to switch, then the opponent can place Reuniclus after to kill Skarmory, then Reuniclus is 2HKO by Draco Meteor after a Calm Mind.
    (252 + SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. (+ 1 252 HP / 4 SpD Reuniclus: 242-286 (57.07 - 67.45%) - guaranteed 2HKO) then the opponent can Recover and finish with Focus Blast because Draco Metoeor down the ATKSPE, Reuniclus is 3HKO by Outrage of Salamence@Choice Scarf (252 Atk Salamence contempt vs. 252 HP / 252 + Def Reuniclus: 175-207 (41.27 - 48.82%) - guaranteed 3HKO). Your team is very disadvantaged against Latios because you have nothing for tank properly Draco Meteor because Rotom is 2HKO, and Skarmory can take a Surf or a Hidden Power Fire and generally Latios is with the item Expert Belt or Life Orb + Recover/Roost, Hydreigon is Outspeed and even if you put Salamence the opponent can switch on a counter and come after to continue because the Choice Scarf is obvious. I noticed that Hydreigon is your stallbreaker + Counter Sun but you already possess Lucario + Salamence, you can perfectly tank the Sun's teams and the stalls, then Latios/Latias/Reuniclus are often played, I suggest you Jirachi specially Defensiv, Jirachi is a very good pokemon for your team it can come easily on Reuniclus/Latios/Latias. but also on Alakazam/Gengar, who are a very good counter against your team cauz Gengar has Substitute to break easily your team and Alakazam with a calm mind violate your team then if it has Focus Sash you're 6-0'd because Lucario does not kill with Extreme Speed or Bullet Punch and Salamence does not kill with Outrage/Dragon Claw and the opponent can switch and come after, then it's very easy to kill Salamence with Stealth Rock + Anticipation.

    I suggest you swap Celebi in Specially Defensive because you have nothing for tank Keldeo@Choice Spec because Rotom is 2HKO by Hydropump under Rain, because your team is a Clear Sky therefore has no Weather, then generally Keldeo is played with the Rain, (252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 232 + SpD Rotom-W in rain)(: 153-180 (50.49 - 59.4%) - 83.98% chance to 2HKO) and Celebi is 2HKO also by Hydropump under Rain, then even if you put Salamence opponent can switch and come after to continue, (252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 50 HP / 0 SpD Celebi in rain: 219-258 (62.03 - 73.08%) - guaranteed 2HKO) now you can come easily on Keldeo Spec.

    Celebi (open)
    Celebi @ Leftovers
    Trait: Natural Cure
    EVs: 252 HP / 204 SDef / 52 Spd
    Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
    - Giga Drain
    - Stealth Rock
    - Recover
    - Hidden Power [Fire]


    Jirachi (open)
    Jirachi @ Leftovers
    Trait: Serene Grace
    EVs: 252 HP / 216 SDef / 40 Spd
    Careful Nature (+SDef, -SAtk)
    - U-turn
    - Body Slam
    - Iron Head
    - Wish


    Tl;dr
    Show Hide
    Hydreigon--->Jirachi
    Celebi--->Specially Defensive


    Hope I Helped and Good Luck with your Team.

    ~Leftiez
  25. False Sense

    False Sense

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2012
    Messages:
    402
    Hi! Thanks for the rate!

    Now, I can understand your concerns about Reuniclus, Keldeo, Lati@s and the like, but the team is capable of handling them. Sp.Def Skarmory can take most of Lati@s' attacks well, and HP Fire/Surf is easily absorbed by Rotom-W. Now, Reuniclus can be annoying, but it's true Skarmory can phaze it out, and the fact that it has to rely on Focus Blast to get neutral damage is helpful. Keldeo I suppose can put pressure on the team with Rain-Choice Specs-boosted Hydro Pumps, but that again requires it to actually hit each time, and at the very least Rotom-W/Celebi can revenge kill it. Now, you also claimed that Alakazam 6-0's the team if it has focus sash. I fail to see how this is possible. True, nothing can kill it in one shot, and it can retaliate, but you're overlooking that fact that Alakazam can be taken out by a combined effort. For example, Lucario can Extreemspeed it to break the sash, while Salamence can come in and kill it with Outrage, possibly starting a sweep. I also notice you also use the idea of "can switch to a counter" as an argument for a threat. That's assuming said counter is still alive, and it should also be mentioned that Hydreigon and Salamence have no counters, so proper prediction can remove threats from play.

    Sorry about that, now about your rates...
    The reason for not using a defensive Celebi has already been mentioned, so I don't think I need to mention it again. Jirachi over Hydreigon, I'm afraid, is something that we really can't do. The team is based around Hydreigon; therefore, the goal is to make a team that works best with it in it, and replacing it goes completely against this goal. I'm sorry if this sounds harsh, but Hydreigon isn't something that can be replaced on the team; change the team to suit Hydreigon, not the other way around.

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)