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Dark Waters - A Rain Team by Sweep and Psych071c

Discussion in 'BW Other Teams' started by Psychotic, Oct 9, 2013.

  1. Psychotic

    Psychotic But in the middle we stay calm, we just drop bombs
    is a Tiering Contributor

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2010
    Messages:
    584
    Dark Waters
    by Sweep and Psych071c
    [​IMG]
    Art Credits to Moose V

    Introduction
    What’s up guys, welcome to me and Sweeps RMT! We first met during the Froslass Suspect test, where we ran into each other all the time and were both using rain teams, so we decided to make a team together. The team we created got us reqs in both the Froslass and Victini tests, and got us both to the top of the Lass Suspect ladder at some point. But now Gen 5 is coming to a close, and we must put the team into retirement. This team is a little reliant on inaccurate moves such as Hydro Pump, so it won't win every game on the ladder, but it performs well vs. strong competition. For example, Sweep beat DestinyUnknown with it in the first round of UU open, and we both beat many skilled players with it during the various suspect tests. It is also easy to use and fun to spam for those times when standard teams get a little old. So without further ado, here is our team!

    Team Overview
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    In-Depth
    [​IMG]
    Cobalion @ Focus Sash
    Ability: Justified
    EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd / 4 Def
    Jolly Nature
    - Close Combat
    - Stealth Rock
    - Iron Head
    - Swords Dance


    A threatening lead with good defensive typing and a great 108 Speed stat. Cobalion might seem like an odd choice for a rain team, but its reliability as a SR setter and its ability to beat up threats to rain such as Empoleon and Snorlax make it worth including on this team. It also fares well against Roserade lacking Sleep Powder. Focus Sash ensures Cobalion gets rocks up and is nice for scouting potential scarfers without worrying about being OHKO'd. Ambushing overeager Scarf Mienshao turn one with Focus Sash & KOing them right back with Close Combat is a lot of fun, though it is also great for surviving Earthquakes and Fire moves and ensuring Stealth Rock goes up. The STAB moves are self-explanatory and hit hard with full investment. Swords Dance is cool to spam on predicted switches (for instance, if your opponent leads with Empoleon and has a Xatu on their team) and turns Cobalion into a major threat. This thing dislikes leads like bulky Nidoqueen, Crobat, Sableye, Mew, and Fire Blast Azelf so if you see any of these mons on your opponent's team, DO hesitate to lead with this. I actually got this set from Shrang's Horses team, and I'd argue Cobalion is the most graceful horse of all.

    [​IMG]
    Tornadus (M) @ Damp Rock
    Trait: Prankster
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 Spd / 4 Def
    Timid Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Hurricane
    - Rain Dance
    - Taunt
    - Grass Knot


    Tornadus is a must-have on any Rain team, and is by far the most reliable rain setter in the tier. It can set up rain against any mon in UU (bar Weavile with Ice Shard), guaranteeing you at least 8 turns of rain per game. Preferably, Tornadus is saved for lategame when the opponent has been worn down enough for something to sweep, but there are many situations you also have to send it in early. If you see a lead Swampert or Rhyperior, you should lead with Tornadus and donk them with Grass Knot. It is also the only way to set rain against fast Taunters like Crobat and Azelf with Fire Blast, against these you must get Rain up with Tornadus ASAP. Hurricane is a move you can freely spam once rain is set up, wrecking grass types and a lot of frailer pokemon like Chandelure, Flygon, and Qwilfish. Taunt is insanely important on Tornadus, because it is the only thing that keeps its most common switch-in, Raikou, from getting up a Substitute. If Raikou gets a sub up it’s basically gg, because it can stall out rain by continually subbing, and sweep the team with 1 or 2 Calm Minds under its belt. If Raikou switches in on Tornadus as you Rain Dance, you MUST Taunt it. Taunt has a few other uses like shutting down Sableye and preventing Umbreon from Wishing, but its main job is to prevent a Raikou Sub.

    [​IMG]
    Rotom-Mow @ Damp Rock
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 252 Spd / 248 HP / 8 SAtk
    Timid Nature
    - Leaf Storm
    - Hidden Power [Ice]
    - Thunder
    - Rain Dance


    Rotom-C is our bulky rain setter, and also the team’s best option for wearing down bulky waters such as Empoleon and Milotic, who are hard to get rid of otherwise. Most of the time, Rotom is the second mon out on the field after Cobalion. With its great bulk, Rotom can take almost any neutral attack, set up rain, and then spam Thunder or switch to a sweeper. Even without Special Attack EVs, Rotom hits hard enough with both Leaf Storm and Thunder to break through bulky waters in the tier, and also does a lot of damage to offensive pokemon that aren’t grass types. Hidden Power Ice wrecks Flygon and other ground types, who are often caught switching in on the predicted Electric move. Max Speed allows Rotom to outspeed and set up rain on a lot of slower offensive pokes like Chandelure and unscarfed Heracross, which is very important if you save Rotom for a mid- to lategame setup. The main problem with Rotom-C is that It gives Raikou a free setup opportunity, so you need to avoid sending out Rotom at all costs if your opponent still has his Raikou. Rotom-C doesn’t do much offensively, but it consistently sets up rain and deals with bulky waters, two jobs that are invaluable to this team.

    [​IMG]
    Kingdra @ Life Orb
    Trait: Swift Swim
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 Spd / 4 Def
    Timid Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Surf
    - Rain Dance
    - Draco Meteor
    - Hydro Pump


    Kingdra is the most consistent mon on the team, either sweeping, setting up rain, or doing some damage every game. Early game, Kingdra acts as a wallbreaker, luring in Suicune, Roserade and Shaymin and smashing them with Draco Meteor. It can also break down teams by spamming Rain-boosted Hydro Pump, wearing down walls like Snorlax, Porygon2 and Umbreon. Lategame, Kingdra cleans teams up with Hydro Pump and Surf, and a lot of offensive teams are swept clean by this beast. Kingdra is also our third Rain Dancing option, and this move can save the game if the other two Rain Dancers have died. Though it does decrease the damage output a bit, using a Timid nature on Kingdra is crucial. If we did not run Timid, many games would come down to Kingdra vs. Kingdra speed ties. We cannot afford to leave the game up to a coinflip every time a Kingdra is on the opponents team, so a Timid Nature is mandatory.

    [​IMG]
    Omastar @ Life Orb
    Ability: Swift Swim
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 Spd / 4 Def
    Modest Nature
    IVs: 30 SAtk / 0 Atk
    - Hydro Pump
    - Ice Beam
    - Shell Smash
    - Hidden Power [Electric]


    Omastar is the wallbreaker on this team, as its ridiculously powerful Hydro Pump allows it to 2HKO specially defensive SNORLAX in the rain. After a Shell Smash, Omastar goes from being "really threatening" to "Makes Gen 1 Mewtwo look like a schoolgirl." If it can get in on something like Umbreon, Crobat, or Dusclops for free, it is pretty much good game unless it comes in too late in the rain cycle or it blows a Hydro Pump. Oftentimes it is best to taunt walls like Registeel with Tornadus before sending in Death Star, because Thunder Wave spam is apparently really popular judging by the UU finals. Beware: Omastar's low speed means that all scarfers from Timid Chandelure and up can outrun and revenge the fossil unless has a Smash up in the rain. Omastar does outrun all unscarfed pokemon available to UU except Ninjask and Accelgor at least! A Timid nature can be used on Omastar to outrun Scarf Heracross and below, but we prefer Modest because of how badly it embarrasses walls such as Umbreon, Snorlax, Amoonguss, and company after a smash. Specially Defensive Emploeon hates HP Electric, which is why it is used over HP Grass (Swampert and Unaware Quagsire die violently to Rain boosted Hydro Pumps). So yeah, this thing is great unless it misses Hydro Pump.

    [​IMG]
    Kabutops @ Choice Band
    Ability: Swift Swim
    EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd / 4 Def
    Adamant Nature
    - Aqua Jet
    - Stone Edge
    - Superpower
    - Waterfall


    The most underrated brute you will ever see. Words cannot do justice to how fucking overpowered Bandtops is in rain, especially after its very few checks are inevitably worn down by our other team members. Waterfall OHKO's offensive Roserade after SR and easily 2HKO's potential "checks" such as Physically Defensive Swampert and Bronzong, ensuring they cannot switch in safely. Blastoise is 2HKO's by Stone Edge, though prior damage is needed to blindly spam Waterfall. Frail sweepers such as Mienshao, Raikou, and Flygon are destroyed by Rain Waterfall. Unlike Omastar, Kabutops possesses the ability the outrun everything up to Scarf Mienshao, making it an effective cleaner. Superpower ruins Ferroseed and Empoleon, who would otherwise be able to stand up to Tops. It also 1HKO's Snorlax and has a 50 percent chance to one hit Umbreon. Aqua Jet allows it to pick off weakened Scarfers and frail mons even after a rain cycle ends. Choice Band is chosen to increase Kabutops' already insane damage output while cutting Life Orb recoil, so Bisharp and Honchrow have a much more difficult time picking this thing off.

    Threatlist
    [​IMG]Kingdra-OHKO's/2HKO's everything. Our Kingdra is Timid to revenge other Kingdra. Omastar can actually beat Lum Dragon Dance 1-1, but loses to the other sets.
    [​IMG]SubCM Raikou-If it gets a free sub, it can easily 6-0. Massive threat.
    [​IMG]Ditto-Ugh, outruns our swimmers due to Choice Scarf+copies Swift Swim
    [​IMG]Crocune-Not as bad as Raikou but still frustrating after it gets a CM. Will have a hard time getting by Rotom-C.
    [​IMG]Lanturn-Walls a good portion of the team and spreads paralysis. Annoying, but can be worn down by just spamming Hydro Pump and Draco Meteor.
    [​IMG]Ludicolo-Defensive sets are hard to break down, offensive sets hit hard in rain though Kabutops and Kingdra both outspeed it.
    [​IMG]Random insanely fast (108+) scarfers such as Azelf-Surprise factor can lead to the loss of Kabutops, even in Rain.

    Conclusion

    Thank you to everyone who took the time to read our RMT! We had a lot of fun making, testing, and playing with the team and we decided we might as well retire it, given how many people have stolen it or started using rain after seeing it over the past few months. The team can be a little inconsistent at times because of all the innacurate moves, but it is competitive and very fun to use if you have gotten tired of all the bulky offense that dominates the tier. There is an importable under here so you can try it out for yourself, and drop us a rate or a like. Later!

    Importable:
    Show Hide
    Omastar @ Life Orb
    Trait: Swift Swim
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 Spd / 4 Def
    Timid Nature
    IVs: 30 SAtk / 0 Atk
    - Hydro Pump
    - Ice Beam
    - Shell Smash
    - Hidden Power [Electric]

    Tornadus (M) @ Damp Rock
    Trait: Prankster
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 Spd / 4 Def
    Timid Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Hurricane
    - Rain Dance
    - Taunt
    - Grass Knot

    Kingdra @ Life Orb
    Trait: Swift Swim
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 Spd / 4 Def
    Timid Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Surf
    - Rain Dance
    - Draco Meteor
    - Hydro Pump

    Kabutops @ Choice Band
    Trait: Swift Swim
    EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd / 4 Def
    Adamant Nature
    - Aqua Jet
    - Stone Edge
    - Superpower
    - Waterfall

    Rotom-Mow @ Damp Rock
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 252 Spd / 248 HP / 8 SAtk
    Timid Nature
    - Leaf Storm
    - Hidden Power [Ice]
    - Thunder
    - Rain Dance

    Cobalion @ Focus Sash
    Trait: Justified
    EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd / 4 Def
    Jolly Nature
    - Close Combat
    - Stealth Rock
    - Iron Head
    - Swords Dance


    Shoutouts:
    Sweep: Shoutout to all my #ubers and #penis friends
    Psych071c: Shoutout to my g's keepin it real in #genvuu, Lonelyness for never answering my questions, RT aka Nas aka tha Visualiza, Masta Ace Emerald, Ernesto b/c he sux, Upstart, and Moose V for making the banner.
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2013
  2. Moose V

    Moose V

    Joined:
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    Why that banner is sexy sirs. Kabutops is a threat haha
  3. unfixable

    unfixable

    Joined:
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    Ok, very nice team here, but one change:

    Kabutops
    Choice Band -> Lum Berry
    Superpower -> Swords Dance

    SD Kabutops is better by a million, it really appreciates not wasting turns of rain and will easily 2HKO the above mentioned threats at +2:
    +2 252 Atk Life Orb Kabutops Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Ferroseed: 140-165 (47.94 - 56.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    +2 252 Atk Life Orb Kabutops Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Empoleon: 216-255 (58.06 - 68.54%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    And btw, who even uses Ferroseed in UU? I have not once seen it.
  4. Moose V

    Moose V

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2012
    Messages:
    539
    While under normal circumstances, SD Kab is alright, this is a rain team. The point of rain teams, at least in uu, is to set up rain, and spam high powered attacks. Setting up means you are literally throwing a turn of rain away and a lack of a choice band means you can't OHKO certain things that can hit hard back. Essentially this kabutops is built to power through teams with very powerful waterfalls and stone edges. Also, with rain up, empoleon can ohko Kab so the 2HKO means nothing and Ferroseed can leech seed its health back so it really isn't going to be a real 2HKO.

    Also Ferroseed is on about everyone 1 in 75 teams in uu so if you've never seen it then you haven't played enough UU
  5. unfixable

    unfixable

    Joined:
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    And what if it is something it can;t take on? Then it is forced out for picking a bad move.
  6. Moose V

    Moose V

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2012
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    539
    If you can even consider a banded, STAB, rain boosted waterfall from a poke that outpseeds almost the entire metagame in rain a "bad move" then yes, it may get forced out by something like suicune but suicune also forces out your SD set so I don't see a problem.
  7. Ash Borer

    Ash Borer Throttle Chopper
    is a Pre-Contributor

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    Cobalion makes an excellent lead, and the focus sash is a solid idea, mienshao, darmanitan, victini, and other common scarfed u-turning leads that are easily able to KO can receive a retaliation if they choose to stay in, and their item is scouted.

    However taunt is brilliant on cablion, it prevents less offensive and threatening leads from dumping their stelath rocks and other hazards on you. For example mew is outsped, and any non attacking move a mew leads with such as WoW or Stealth rocks is stopped. Even gambles like rhyperior, nidoqueen and such can be beneficial. Iron head doesnt net all that much coverage, though a prankster taunt already exists on the team, so taunt isnt as necessary.


    I dont exactly agree that setting up swords dance is a "Waste of rain", SD life orb kabutops can OHKO a huge portion of teams, even things like virizion, empoleon or slowbro can get OHKO'd. Slowbro, only after rocks though. However shell smash omastar already exists on the team, and having a no set up heavy hitter is much better than 2 set up sweepers, in this case.

    speaking of set up sweepers, are there are any very relevant 2HKOs and OHKOs that hydro pump is hitting that surf isnt? Seems like if you get a shell smash, especially in the rain hydro pump is practically overkill, and the miss chance is too high.
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2013
  8. Moose V

    Moose V

    Joined:
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    Messages:
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    +2 252 SpA Life Orb Omastar Hydro Pump vs. 144 HP / 252+ SpD Snorlax in rain: 473-558 (95.17 - 112.27%) -- 68.75% chance to OHKO
    +2 252 SpA Life Orb Omastar Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon in rain: 421-497 (106.85 - 126.14%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    With surf,
    +2 252 SpA Life Orb Omastar Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon in rain: 333-394 (84.51 - 100%) -- 6.25% chance to OHKO
    +2 252 SpA Life Orb Omastar Surf vs. 144 HP / 252+ SpD Snorlax in rain: 376-445 (75.65 - 89.53%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    Also SD on Kabutops is a hindrance on rain teams since it lacks important coverage to OHKO certain pokes and still can't ohko some of its common switch ins at +2 but can 2HKO the incoming poke:

    You messed something up with your Slowbro calc:
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 248+ Def Slowbro: 289-341 (73.53 - 86.76%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    so Kabutops has no chance to ohko Slowbro (w/o a crit) but,
    252+ Atk Choice Band Kabutops Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 248+ Def Slowbro: 168-198 (42.74 - 50.38%) -- 49.22% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    granted, 50% isn't amazing but still is fairly crucial.
  9. Ash Borer

    Ash Borer Throttle Chopper
    is a Pre-Contributor

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    Moose V
    Sept. Snrorlax spreads are as such

    | Spreads |
    | Adamant:252/252/0/0/4/0 14.940% |
    | Careful:144/0/188/0/176/0 12.390% |
    | Adamant:0/252/52/0/200/4 11.723% |
    | Careful:252/4/0/0/252/0 9.603% |
    | Adamant:80/176/96/0/156/0 3.006% |
    | Careful:252/0/4/0/252/0 1.893% |
    | Other 46.445%|

    Surf has an 25% chance to defeat 144hp/176sdef careful snorlax
    It can not defeat 252sdef/252hp careful
    Hydro pump defeats both

    However, surf defeats all other spreads listed, here. It is unknown how much of the 46% are beaten by surf, but according to this data surf omastar is guaranteed to beat 31% of all snorlaxes, and potentially up to 77%, though probably much less, closer to 60%. Hydro pump has an 80% chance of defeating all snorlax as no set stands up to hydro pump. Considering a stealth rock suicide lead is on the team, surf beats all snorlaxes, other than 252hp/252sdef careful (which has a 38% chance to KO), with stealth rocks, and surf still beats quite a lot of snorlaxes even without rocks, surf is worth considering, imo. It's worth mentioning that almost all umbreon are fully specially defensive so surf does not defeat almost all umbreon, however after stealth rocks a fully specially defensive umbreon is OHKO'd by surf guaranteed.

    Omastar's sweeping capability comes down to stealth rocks or not with surf, and hit or miss with hydro pump. BOth are pretty viable, and like I said, cobalion is an excellent lead and definitely has no trouble getting rocks down, so surf could be the choice.

    About the slowbro set, I forgot to make it bold or something.
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2013
  10. Sweep

    Sweep
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    Thanks for the feedback! We chose Hydro Pump on Omastar because it hits ridiculously hard even without a Smash boost, OHKO'ing threats like Defensive Bronzong that Surf cannot kill. Surf is still very viable though, and far more consistent, but without Hydro Omastar no longer wallbreaks as effectively.
    Godsend likes this.
  11. Not Jacky

    Not Jacky

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    I would switch either Hidden Power or Thunder on Rotom for Volt Switch. Hidden Power hits very few targets harder than Leaf Storm. Flygon and Nidoking/queen (offensive) can only switch to a Leaf Storm once, and Gligar is 2HKOd handily if it has taken any prior damage. However, I do recognize that it is more reliable than either Leaf Storm or Thunder late game (which is why it'd also work over Thunder).

    Volt Switch conserves precious rain turns as well as momentum. Since your Rotom is uninvested in Special Attack it can waste more rain turns than you'd like, since it can be difficult to switch in your rain sweepers directly. Volt Switch allows you to bypass this, as well as switch out of Raikou (should it switch in or try to set up on you) without relying on prediction.
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2013
    Sweep likes this.
  12. SquirtleSquad626

    SquirtleSquad626

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    I think Not Jacky brings up a good point about Volt Switch. It has great synnergy with rain, preserving those precious turns, as well as Leaf storm, allowing a momentum-sustaining switch after the stat drop. I think dropping HP Ice like Not Jacky suggested might be helpful, as things that HP Ice are meant for are already beat by Leaf Storm.

    That's the only thing I can even critique, the team look super solid. :)

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