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Darwinian Theory: UU Edition Round 2

Discussion in 'BW UU' started by Ace Emerald, Jan 13, 2013.

?

Who would you like to see battle? Vote all that apply.

Poll closed Jan 21, 2013.
  1. Metal Sonic

    5 vote(s)
    29.4%
  2. Pokemazter

    8 vote(s)
    47.1%
  3. JabbaTheGriffin

    9 vote(s)
    52.9%
  4. Metric

    3 vote(s)
    17.6%
  5. Upstart

    2 vote(s)
    11.8%
  6. Reachzero

    7 vote(s)
    41.2%
Multiple votes are allowed.
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  1. Ace Emerald

    Ace Emerald Horsing around
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    Credit for DTC for the idea and OP.

    What is This?

    Welcome to UU Survival of the Fittest. In this interactive project, there are two teams pitted against each other. You have to try to figure out which team has a better chance of winning against the other team. There are multiple factors you should consider when trying to figure out which team has a better chance of winning, including but not limited to weaknesses to opposing Pokemon, ease in prediction, and dependency on luck factors.

    This will also work like a BOTW of sorts. While the rounds are taking place, people may nominate players to battle against each other with one of the two teams. Post which player you would like to see battle in this thread, but that post must have other content otherwise it is null and void. If you do not have a chance to make a post with sufficient content, you may VM me your nomination. A week after the last set of teams was posted, a poll that will last two days will be put up with the nominated players. After that ends, the two teams will battle and then the cycle will repeat.

    Point System

    There will be a point system involved in this. Whoever has the most points whenever I (or a UU mod) decide to close or suspend this project wins. If you win, you will earn a spot in the Hall of Fame. There may be some other goodies down the line for you as well.

    How to get points:
    • Predict which team is going to win right.
    • Be one of the battlers and win the battle.
    • Win the subjective "master debater" award.

    All of those reward you one point each.

    If you consistently get jipped out of points because of luck, you know who to complain to.

    Master Debater Award

    Whoever makes the most convincing arguments in any given week will win the best debater award. If you win this award, you will be granted a point. Do note that this award is subjective, and that kokoloko, RT, and I will decide on the winner.


    leaderboard (open)

    kokoloko: 2
    TPO3: 2
    Pocket: 1
    Metal Sonic: 1
    Ernesto: 1
  2. Ace Emerald

    Ace Emerald Horsing around
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    The teams:

    Team 1 (open)

    Chandelure @ Choice Specs
    Trait: Flame Body
    EVs: 68 HP / 4 SDef / 184 Spd / 252 SAtk
    Modest Nature
    - Fire Blast
    - Shadow Ball
    - Trick
    - Hidden Power [Fighting]

    Cobalion @ Leftovers
    Trait: Justified
    EVs: 252 Spd / 56 HP / 200 Atk
    Jolly Nature
    - Stealth Rock
    - Taunt
    - Close Combat
    - Volt Switch

    Roserade @ Leftovers
    Trait: Natural Cure
    EVs: 248 HP / 252 SDef / 8 Spd
    Calm Nature
    - Spikes
    - Giga Drain
    - Sludge Bomb
    - Rest

    Flygon @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 4 SDef / 252 Spd / 252 Atk
    Adamant Nature
    - Outrage
    - Earthquake
    - U-turn
    - Fire Punch

    Zapdos @ Life Orb
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 Spd / 4 SDef
    Timid Nature
    - Thunderbolt
    - Heat Wave
    - Hidden Power [Grass]
    - Roost

    Raikou @ Leftovers
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 Spd / 4 SDef
    Timid Nature
    - Calm Mind
    - Thunderbolt
    - Hidden Power [Ice]
    - Substitute


    Team 2 (open)
    Abomasnow @ Leftovers
    Trait: Snow Warning
    EVs: 248 HP / 252 SDef / 8 Spd
    Calm Nature
    - Blizzard
    - Giga Drain
    - Substitute
    - Leech Seed

    Swampert @ Leftovers
    Trait: Torrent
    EVs: 240 HP / 52 Atk / 216 Def
    Relaxed Nature
    - Stealth Rock
    - Earthquake
    - Scald
    - Toxic

    Gothorita @ Eviolite
    Trait: Shadow Tag
    EVs: 176 SAtk / 252 HP / 80 SDef
    Modest Nature
    - Psyshock
    - Hidden Power [Ice]
    - Reflect
    - Light Screen

    Nidoqueen (F) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Sheer Force
    EVs: 128 Spd / 252 SAtk / 128 HP
    Modest Nature
    - Toxic Spikes
    - Earth Power
    - Blizzard
    - Roar

    Rotom-Frost @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Modest Nature
    - Thunderbolt
    - Blizzard
    - Volt Switch
    - Trick

    Snorlax @ Choice Band
    Trait: Thick Fat
    EVs: 16 HP / 252 Atk / 52 Def / 188 SDef
    Adamant Nature
    - Return
    - Earthquake
    - Crunch
    - Pursuit
  3. Metal Sonic

    Metal Sonic Turn it up!
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    Team 1: Specs Chandy/SR Cobalion/ Spikes Roserade/ Scarfed Flygon / LO 3 Attacks Zapdos / SubCM Raikou

    Team 2: Band Lax/ Hailobama / ScaldEQ Pert / DualScreens Gothorita/ Tspikes Queen / Scarf Blizzspam Rotom F


    I think that Team 1 will win(again). Why? Team 2 has 3 pokemon which are weak to Fighting, which Support Cobalion Conveniently provides. Banded Snorlax on Team 2(again) is not as useful this round because of Chandelure taking Returns and Cobalion hard countering it.

    Both teams are similarly weak to SR, with two pokemon on both teams taking 25% from SR damage, and also 2 pokemon resisting SR damage as well. One pokemon on each team, Zapdos and Obamasnow, can also mitigate SR damage by roosting or subseeding respectively.

    However! What is interesting about team 2 is that 5/6 of its pokemon are susceptible to Spikes, which are conveniently laid down by Roserade, and the only Rotom F which does not get spikes damage is conveniently weak to SR. In comparison, Team 1 has Roserade to remove Team 2's Toxic Spikes on the field, and even then, only 2 pokemon on Team 1 are susceptible to Toxic Spikes! Team 1 clearly has the hazard advantage this round!(again)


    In an ironic twist, Scarfed Flygon this round, in Team 1, carries Fire Punch! Which hard counters Team 2's HailObama and Rotom F, and Along with Chandelure, which can OHKO 4/6 members in Team 2!

    Swampert is a very good check to team 1! But the Host Ace Emerald decided to be funny and put 2 Specially Offensive Pokemon with a powerful Grass Type attack into Team 1, which tears Swampert into tiny little pieces! Oh the irony!

    And finally, Snorlax; Team 2's final check! But no! Chandelure decides to get trick and to trade a Choice Band for a Choice Specs! Not to mention Snorlax's STAB does not affect Chandelure and vice versa


    And the game is won! Team 1 for winner again!


    EDIT: can i nominate myself to play
  4. Antihaxxer

    Antihaxxer

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    I think Team 1 is too Special to handle Snorlax + Dual Screen, but Team 2 will have too much passive damage (Stealth Rock, Spikes, Hail and their own Toxic Spikes will be almost useless especially against Roserade, Steel Pokemon and 2 Flying/Levitating guys)
  5. silenced

    silenced

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    Team 1 should have this easily.

    Roserade just needs to get as many layers of spikes up as possible. Against the possible leads of team 2, it will get two layers up before dying against everything except nidoqueen (although it can if blizzard misses, as earth power fails to 2HKO), snorlax (but it must use return), and rotom-F (although blizzard must hit twice without hail in effect), and thus begin to pile pressure on everything bar rotom-F due to residual damage being dealt without recovery (which really hurts team 2 given the nature of the team trying to switch its trappers in repeatedly).

    Therefore, team two almost has to lead with snorlax by default to prevent this, which results in chandelure getting a free turn to blast whatever it wants when it comes in after roserade's death, or cobalion gets to safely set up SR on top of the spikes. This puts team 2 at a huge disadvantage already, taking residual damage on top of eventual hail damage mitigating those who have left-overs, and worsening those without. This doesn't even take into account if team 1 guesses lead snorlax correctly and fires off a free CC from cobalion. Team 2 has no good answer to this opening play outside of luck really.

    At this point, abomasnow has not gotten onto the field yet, which means the hard hitting pokemon of team two cannot even function accurately yet, let alone any hazard support to hurt team 1 in fear of switching. Nidoqueen can come safely in on cobalion, but unless it wants to get wiped out by an attacking pokemon from team 1, it must correctly predict the incoming pokemon, and hit it if it chooses blizzard as an attack.

    I'll stop predicting the course of the game at this point, but the point I'm leading into is that team 2 is going to wear itself down on hazards, with its only hope that rotom-f gets to counter-sweep because team 1 has only pokemon left who can be picked off by the appropriate move of either blizzard or thunderbolt.

    Other thoughts
    -While the "trapping the killer" strategy is nice overall, and would allow for clever strategies in trapping without it dying, I am deeply disappointed that abomasnow is borderline cannonfodder in this match-up. I would consider it unlikely it would get any chance to subseed at all in this match. That's fine if we only had snover, but for abomasnow? really?
    -I am not at all impressed with swampert's moveset. It seems like team 1 got SubCM raikou just to justify swampert's existance on team 2 outside SR duty.

    Then again, I suspect someone will correct my thoughts.
  6. TPO3

    TPO3 Never practice; Always perform.

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    Team 1: Specs Chandy/SR Cobalion/ Spikes Roserade/ Scarfed Flygon / LO 3 Attacks Zapdos / SubCM Raikou

    Team 2: Band Lax/ Hailobama / ScaldEQ Pert / DualScreens Gothorita/ Tspikes Queen / Scarf Blizzspam Rotom F

    Am I the only one who likes Team 2 In this matchup? I know it's a boring "BlizzSpam" team, but team 1's ice resists are both not that bulky on the special side, and are both also weak to ground. Furthermore, Team 1 has absolutely nothing it wants to safely switch into Nidoqueen. Roserade is the closest thing since with that EV Spread it can probably survive both Earth Power and Blizzard, but Gothorita just traps it for a free kill. In addition to this, that would mean that any Tspikes Nidoqueen decides to set up are going to stay there for the entire match. Chandy is going to die really quickly between Stealth Rock, Hail, and Toxic Spikes. This also makes it much harder for Team 1's win condition, Raikou, to sweep, in addition to the fact that Swampert is a full stop to it.

    Team 2 is also pretty much guranteed to grab Chandelure with Snorlax, via Pursuit. So without Chandelure and Roserade, there's going to be too much pressure on Zapdos to try and clear the way for Raikou to sweep. With Hail, damage on Team 1 in general is going to add up too quickly, which is going to create a lot of early pressure.

    I think Team 2 Is going to come away with the win here.

    ...iirc we're also supposed to nominate players. I'd like to nominate hilarious, since he was tied with FlareBlitz last time, but I also know he has experience using hail teams, so I think it'd be cool to watch him play this time.

    EDIT: Hell with it. I'll nominate Pokemazter. I don't think I've seen him play before.
  7. Mazz

    Mazz UU's Workhorse
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    Team 1: Specs Chandy/SR Cobalion/ Spikes Roserade/ Scarfed Flygon / LO 3 Attacks Zapdos / SubCM Raikou

    Team 2: Band Lax/ Hailobama / ScaldEQ Pert / DualScreens Gothorita/ Tspikes Queen / Scarf Blizzspam Rotom F

    I'm gonna follow suit with TPO3 here, and say that Team 2 will be winning this match, as Team 1 doesn't have much that wants to be switching into Rotom-F, as Cobalion is the only member on Team 1 that wants to be fucking around with Blizzard (even then, it's still doing 35.91% - 42.43%). Taking advantage of that fact, one can easily predict the switch to Cobalion, provided Rotom-F has an opportunity to switch-in on either Roserade or Flygon using Earthquake, and mash it with Thunderbolt, doing 57.27% - 67.66% to Cobalion on the switch-in alone. With Cobalion removed, Rotom-F will find it rather easy to start dismantling the opposing team. Flygon will also be hard-pressed to eliminate Rotom-F, as Outrage fails to KO without Stealth Rock damage (does 70.12% - 83.4% damage, which still isn't guaranteed), meaning that Team 1's premier revenge-killer will more than likely fall to Rotom-F. If the Outrage does KO however, then Gothorita is free to come in and knock Flygon's shit sideways, taking 49.38% - 58.64% from Outrage and retaliating hard with HP Ice. Swampert also does well in this match against Team 1, as Scald will more than easily neuter Cobalion and does wonders against Raikou. Going against the arguments of CB Lax losing to Specs Chandelure because it resists Return, all Snorlax has to do is show up and start button mashing Pursuit, forcing Chandelure out of the match. Snorlax is also dead useful for busting Raikou in half, taking pitiful damage from unboosted Thunderbolts or Hidden Powers and really doing a number with Earthquake or Return. Good for Zapdos and Roserade too.

    Unfortunately for Team 1, there's just too much pressure on a single Pokemon, Cobalion, to stop Team 2's top threat, Rotom-F, which otherwise dismantles the majority of Team 1. It's win condition in Raikou has too much to go up against to pull away with anything more than a pocketful of success. With minimal support, Chandelure can be lured with Abomasnow and eliminated by Snorlax which basically gives Rotom-F the game. It won't be a clean 6-0, provided the match is between 2 intelligent players and hax doesn't stick its nose into the match, and is more than likely to be a close match, but I can't see team 1 coming out on top this time.

    I'm also gonna be a selfish prick and nominate myself. It's been a while since I've done anything worth doing in UU besides laddering.
  8. Ace Emerald

    Ace Emerald Horsing around
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    I'm going to throw my support behind Team 1 to win, despite strong arguments for Team 2. Pokemazter made a great observation when he talked about how the only thing between Team 1 and a Rotom sweep is Cobalion. However, Rotom is Team 2's only sweeper, and I'd go as far as to say its Team 2's wincon. The is a wincon weak to Stealth Rock, revenge-able by Flygon, and even Chandelure maybe. While it's still a threatening sweeper that the player that uses Team 2 needs to watch for, there a lot of pressure on it. Similarly, there is a lot of pressure on Snorlax. It takes Hail damage, and must single handedly about check half of Team 1, as it is responsible for Chandelure, Zapdos, and splits the responsiblity of checking Raikou and Roserade with Swampert and Gothorita respectively. While Snorlax is a great strength of Team 2 (weakens Cobalion), it also has a ton of pressure on it. On the other hand, Team 1 has strength in similar counters. It has the great potential to overwhelm Snorlax and Rotom-F with Rocks, Hail (ironically), and repeated hits. Team 2 has to rely too much on a few Pokemon, and has a greater chance of finding those Pokemon weakened.

    Team 1 has multiple wincons on its side of the field as it has a good many capable sweepers. After Snorlax and Swampert are weakened, Raikou is a potential sweeper. Rotom-F resists Electric/Ice, but is 2HKO'd by +1 Thunderbolt and SR, while +1 Sp Def cushions the +0 Blizzard. Swampert is also a major thorn in Flygon's side, and will be hard pressed to counter both. Zapdos is only walled by Snorlax and a Nidoqueen is great condition, but is revenged by Rotom-F pretty easily. Flygon might be the most potent sweeper of Team 1. It's Outrage is unresisted, and nothing can outspeed it. A weakened Team 2 will be decimated by a Flygon sweep, and it will be near impossible to keep bulky Pokemon in good health with all of the sweepers inflicting damage.

    Noms: Metric, JabbaTheGriffin, and Upstart
  9. Bad Ass

    Bad Ass there are other worlds that they have not told you of
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    team 1 totally. zapdos runs through it (bandlax takes hits for shit and gets walled by cobalion), and swampert is team 2's only answer to cobalion and flygon, and raikou to a lesser extent. all team 1 has to do is lay a layer of spikes and sr and just go to town. send out zapdos and weaken snorlax+nidoueen, send out raikou to force swampert to eat damage, get in flygon and u-turn away, even cobalion can get in and CC pert for nice damage with sR+spikes.

    once swampert falls and everything else is weakened a little (gothoria a bit, nidoqueen a bit, snorlax a bit, abomasnow a bit -- and by a bit i mean, can't take an outrage. which is not a lot), flygon just runs train.

    the only hope i really see is abusing rotom-f, but to do this team 2 would have to be played VERY aggressively to prevent stealth rocks from being set. i think that if rocks get up it's pretty much over since team 1 has enough checks to rotom-f to force it to take SR and "try again later".
  10. Santuga

    Santuga

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    I am putting my vote on Team 1 due to the sheer power Chandelure packs. Once Snorlax gets taken out (being in a Hail team actually makes it a lot easier to take down), nothing on team 2 outpaces Chandelure outside of Scarf Rotom-F and Swampert gets 2HKOed after Stealth Rock. If played correctly, team 1 won't let Swampert get Stealth Rock up, as it has 3 Pokemon to threaten it or shut it down (Roserade, Zapdos and Cobalion) If Chandelure fails to complete its task, Raikou cleans up the game
  11. kokoloko

    kokoloko supersmooth
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    yeah ima have to go with team 1. between raikou/zapdos/cobalion and hazards, everything on team 2 is gonna get worn down quickly enough for flygon to just outrage to its hearts desire late-game. team two doesn't have enough offensive presence to keep this from happening imo.

    noms: reach and jabba
  12. Ernesto

    Ernesto is a motionless pedophile
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    Okay, I gave this a lot of thought since I saw the teams posted, and I just can't come to a different conclusion: Team 1 is most likely gonna win.

    First off, it's almost impossible to stop Cobalion from setting up SR and making Snorlax's and Rotom-F's lives miserable, since the only way I see it happening is if it's in a lead matchup against Nidoqueen and Cobalion goes for Taunt while Queen attacks.
    Then there's the fact that Abomasnow can't really do much in this battle, not being able to set up on anything except on a Flygon locked into Earthquake (which really shouldn't happen). If it were an offensive version with Ice Shard, it could actually revenge kill Outraging Flygon and Zapdos at around 50% health, but it isn't so it's off the point.
    I also think that Gothorita will struggle to get a setup fodder, the only things he could trap to set up screens are Flygon locked into Fire Punch (which also shouldn't happen) or Chandelure locked into HP Fighting, completely unnecessary to beat Snorlax. Of course, he can trap Roserade, but Rosey outspeeds and will just set up three layers of Spikes before dying, so I don't know if it's a good thing to do.

    Finally, like everyone who voted for Team 1 has said, Snorlax just has too much pressure on its hands, with Specs Chandy and LO Zapdos weakening it. Sure, Zapdos can be checked by Nidoqueen, but she can't really take two Heat Waves after SR and Hail, so she's a good check at best. Snorlax does have the ability to KO everything on Team 1 with the right prediction—and provided Cobalion is weakened enough—but it won't be safe spamming any move in particular, so it's not half as threatening as it was on Round 1. The fact that Swampert is invaluable for Raikou doesn't really help, because it'll be hard pressed to actually set up SR, funnily.

    With all of that in mind, I think that Team 2 could stand a chance at winning with proper care, since after Cobalion is down nothing will like taking Modest Blizzards (Chandy is 2HKOed after SR). Even then, though, nothing is stopping Flygon from revenge killing, and Outrage spamming could end the game right there.

    I'd like to nominate Pokemazter and Jabba.
  13. Queen of Randoms

    Queen of Randoms I'm So Crown
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    No matter what way I look at it, I see Team 1 coming out on top. What's going to kill Team 2 is passive damage, as has been said multiple times, and Team 2's trappers come up short in stopping them from being set up. Gothorita is utterly disappointing in her role here. She's going to have a really tough time getting up screens, and she doesn't have the speed or strength to reliably trap Roserade and stop her from setting her Spikes.

    176 SpAtk Gothorita (+SpAtk) Psyshock vs 248 HP/0 Def Roserade: 92.88% - 109.6% (56.25% chance to OHKO)

    If she comes in there's a chance for a full 3 layers of Spikes! She needed to be Scarfed or something in my opinion to discourage Roserade from coming out.

    Roserade is basically guaranteed two layers of Spikes against Team 2, and with Hail as a factor too that's all Team 1 is going to need. Rotom-F is Team 2's only savior, and like Rose and her Spikes, nothing is truly stopping Cobalion from setting his rocks. Nidoqueen is the only thing on the team that can OHKO him (252 Atk Choice Band Snorlax (+Atk) Earthquake vs 56 HP/0 Def Cobalion: 76.56% - 90.21% (2 hits to KO)), and considering SR cripples Team 2's only shot at winning, he's an acceptable loss should it come down to Cobalion or SR, which is an unlikely scenario in itself.

    What kills Team 2 is it's inability to apply enough pressure to Team 1 to make its trappers effective, and the only way that it will be able to pull out the win is through excellent prediction. Team 2 is forced constantly to respond to Team 1, having its members out-sped and forced out with no Pokémon to keep the momentum going if Rotom-F manages to snag it. Add in the fact that Rotom-F is getting smashed by SR weakness and the others are getting hit with Hail (I'm not going to deal with how disappointing Abomasnow is, I think it was covered nicely already. The fact that he's adding to the residual damage is just icing on the cake.) and Roserade's Spikes, Team 2 is going to end up slowly killing itself trying to react to the threats Team 1 is able to bring out with little to no consequence. Team 2 needed to be constantly threatening, but instead it's very responsive and relying to heavily on Lax and Rotom-F (neither of whom can heal or be counted on to take hits with hazards around). Like, Swampert, why are you here? It's an after the fact response to Raikou that offers nothing else but SR and a scary opportunity for Roserade to come in. Abomasnow, I said I wouldn't talk about you but my goodness honey, when are you going to set up that sub and who are you checking? Abomasnow ain't Snover; he has the stats to go toe to toe with his opponents, and he shouldn't be treated as the hail bitch, but as a contributing member to the team. Snover held his own and did his part in UU, Aboma's potential should be capitalized on here and it just isn't. Nearly everything on Team 2 is a response to something on Team 1 (i.e. Snorlax to Chandy, Goth to Rose, Queen to Cobalion), but Team 1 can play smart and keep Team 2 constantly responding, and that residual damage is just going to pave the way for Team 1 to pick off the slow and weakened Team 2. It won't matter if Gothorita finds time to put up her screens (which in itself would be impressive) when her whole team is stepping on Spikes and getting wrecked by Hail and SR.

    If Team 2 can manage to stay one step ahead and get a nice read on Team 1, it has a shot, but it's gonna be hella tough.
  14. Ace Emerald

    Ace Emerald Horsing around
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    There's been a good number of responses, to the poll stage! Vote for anyone you'd like to see battle. I set it to close in 4 days, so get those votes in before the 21st.

    As a note, I left hilarious off the poll, as he is on hiatus last I checked.
  15. Ace Emerald

    Ace Emerald Horsing around
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    JabbaTheGriffin and Pokemazter have won the poll. As Jabba had the most points, I ran a RNG to see what team he would have. Jabba will play with Team 1, Pokemazter with Team 2. Hopefully we can get this battle completed in a few days.
  16. Cassen

    Cassen

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    A replay of the battle would be much appreciated this time around. Good luck to both battlers!
  17. JabbaTheGriffin

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    won 2-0 in a set of ggs. cobalion and zapdos had to be used very carefully but i generally made the right guesses.

    here are the replays:
    Battle 1
    Battle 2
  18. Mazz

    Mazz UU's Workhorse
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    Lost in two matches to Jabba. Both scores were 2-0. Flygon proved to be too much for Team 2 to handle, but besides that, very well-matched teams.

    That was fun.
  19. Metal Sonic

    Metal Sonic Turn it up!
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    can i get master debater award this time

    i predict a++
  20. Ace Emerald

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    After some great battles and discussion, round 2 has drawn to a close! Choosing the master debater was not at all easy, there were several good posts arguing for both teams. That's great because that's why I wanted to start this project here, so keep it up everyone! Queen of Randoms was chosen for the master debater for a great argument focusing on the way Team 2 needed to respond to Team 1 and the pressure stemming from that. Here are the users who gained points that round:

    Metal Sonic: +1
    Silenced: +1
    Bad Ass: +1
    Santuga: +1
    kokoloko: +1
    Ernesto: +1
    JabbaTheGriffin: +1
    Queen of Randoms: +2

    Updated leaderboard:
    leaderboard (open)

    kokoloko: 3
    TPO3: 2
    Metal Sonic: 2
    Ernesto: 2
    Queen of Randoms: 2
    Pocket: 1
    Silenced: 1
    Bad Ass: 1
    Santuga: 1
    JabbaTheGriffin: 1

    Round 3 will be up in the next few days, be sure to watch for it!
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