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Darwinian Theory: UU Edition

Discussion in 'BW UU' started by Ace Emerald, Dec 28, 2012.

?

Who would you like to see battle? Vote all that apply.

  1. kd24

    6 vote(s)
    23.1%
  2. JabbaTheGriffin

    8 vote(s)
    30.8%
  3. yan[sogeking]

    3 vote(s)
    11.5%
  4. RT.

    5 vote(s)
    19.2%
  5. FlareBlitz

    10 vote(s)
    38.5%
  6. kokoloko

    13 vote(s)
    50.0%
  7. hilarious

    10 vote(s)
    38.5%
  8. reachzero

    6 vote(s)
    23.1%
  9. spareaacount

    1 vote(s)
    3.8%
Multiple votes are allowed.
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  1. Ace Emerald

    Ace Emerald Horsing around
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    Credit for DTC for the idea and OP.

    What is This?

    Welcome to UU Survival of the Fittest. In this interactive project, there are two teams pitted against each other. You have to try to figure out which team has a better chance of winning against the other team. There are multiple factors you should consider when trying to figure out which team has a better chance of winning, including but not limited to weaknesses to opposing Pokemon, ease in prediction, and dependency on luck factors.

    This will also work like a BOTW of sorts. While the rounds are taking place, people may nominate players to battle against each other with one of the two teams. Post which player you would like to see battle in this thread, but that post must have other content otherwise it is null and void. If you do not have a chance to make a post with sufficient content, you may VM me your nomination. A week after the last set of teams was posted, a poll that will last two days will be put up with the nominated players. After that ends, the two teams will battle and then the cycle will repeat.

    Point System

    There will be a point system involved in this. Whoever has the most points whenever I (or a UU mod) decide to close or suspend this project wins. If you win, you will earn a spot in the Hall of Fame. There may be some other goodies down the line for you as well.

    How to get points:
    • Predict which team is going to win right.
    • Be one of the battlers and win the battle.
    • Win the subjective "master debater" award.

    All of those reward you one point each.

    If you consistently get jipped out of points because of luck, you know who to complain to.

    Master Debater Award

    Whoever makes the most convincing arguments in any given week will win the best debater award. If you win this award, you will be granted a point. Do note that this award is subjective, and that kokoloko, RT, and I will decide on the winner.


    leaderboard (open)

    kokoloko: 2
    TPO3: 2
    Pocket: 1
    Metal Sonic: 1
    Ernesto: 1
  2. Ace Emerald

    Ace Emerald Horsing around
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    Team 1 (open)

    [​IMG]
    Roserade @ Life Orb
    Trait: Natural Cure
    EVs: 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature
    - Leaf Storm
    - Sleep Powder
    - Sludge Bomb
    - Synthesis

    [​IMG]
    Victini @ Choice Band
    Trait: Victory Star
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature
    - Bolt Strike
    - V-create
    - U-turn
    - Zen Headbutt

    [​IMG]
    Kingdra @ Lum Berry
    Trait: Swift Swim
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    - Substitute
    - Waterfall
    - Outrage
    - Dragon Dance

    [​IMG]
    Zapdos @ Leftovers
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 112 HP / 8 Def / 252 SAtk / 136 Spd
    Modest Nature
    - Heat Wave
    - Thunderbolt
    - Hidden Power [Grass]
    - Roost

    [​IMG]
    Nidoqueen (F) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Sheer Force
    EVs: 100 HP / 252 SAtk / 156 Spd
    Modest Nature
    - Earth Power
    - Fire Blast
    - Ice Beam
    - Stealth Rock

    [​IMG]
    Flygon @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature
    - Earthquake
    - Outrage
    - U-turn
    - Fire Punch


    Team 2 (open)

    [​IMG]
    Slowbro @ Leftovers
    Trait: Regenerator
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SAtk
    Bold Nature
    - Psyshock
    - Scald
    - Slack Off
    - Thunder Wave

    [​IMG]
    Snorlax @ Choice Band
    Trait: Thick Fat
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 SDef
    Adamant Nature
    - Pursuit
    - Crunch
    - Earthquake
    - Return

    [​IMG]
    Crobat @ Leftovers
    Trait: Inner Focus
    EVs: 176 HP / 192 Atk / 4 SDef / 136 Spd
    Jolly Nature
    - Brave Bird
    - Roost
    - Taunt
    - U-turn

    [​IMG]
    Froslass (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Cursed Body
    EVs: 248 HP / 8 SDef / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature
    - Ice Beam
    - Spikes
    - Taunt
    - Pain Split

    [​IMG]
    Mienshao @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Reckless
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature
    - Hi Jump Kick
    - Stone Edge
    - U-turn
    - Aerial Ace

    [​IMG]
    Raikou @ Leftovers
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature
    - Calm Mind
    - Thunderbolt
    - Hidden Power [Ice]
    - Substitute


    Discussion may commence!
  3. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
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    Team 1: Roserade (LO) / Victini (CB) / Kingdra (SubDD) / Zapdos (3 atks) / Nidoqueen (SR) / Flygon (Scarf)

    Team 2: Slowbro (TWave) / Snorlax (CB) / Crobat / Froslass / Mienshao (Scarf) / Raikou (SubCM)

    Team 1 looks like the winner team here. The lack of SR on team 2 is silly, imo, cuz SR support would go a long way in facilitating Scarf Mienshao sweep. Team 1 can maintain momentum with U-turn spam and can hit right off the bat with Roserade, Nidoqueen, and Zapdos. Team 2 would have to play on the defensive, and all it takes is weakening Snorlax for Roserade and Nidoqueen to plow through the team. Scarf Mienshao and SubCM Raikou are the win conditions for team 2, so as long as Team 1 keep Nidoqueen and probably Victini healthy, they should win the match. Just avoid Raikou from keeping an intact sub, and Scarf Flygon can always force it out.
  4. Metal Sonic

    Metal Sonic Turn it up!
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    Team 1: Roserade (LO) / Victini (CB) / Kingdra (SubDD) / Zapdos (3 atks) / Nidoqueen (SR) / Flygon (Scarf)

    Team 2: Slowbro (TWave) / Snorlax (CB) / Crobat / Froslass / Mienshao (Scarf) / Raikou (SubCM)

    I think Team 1 will win. Slowbro is redundant on Team 2 considering that Team 1's physical attackers aren't stopped by it. Victini 2HKOs easy with Bolt and Kingdra can sit on a sub. CB Snorlax also isn't very grand, especially when it's locked into a move, although spamming choiced Return may be devastating to Team 1. Crobat only counters Roserade, but it can get sleep powder'd on the switch. Also gets donked by anything else on Team 1. Mienshao is hard pressed to get past Nidoqueen, and Raikou get shitted on by the Scarfed Flygon. Also, as a last point, Team 1's Victini and Zapdos can take a big 25% of damage from Stealth Rock, but unfortunately Team 2 does not have them!



    Needless to say, Team 1 is a counterteam to Team 2. Therefore Team 2 will lose
  5. kokoloko

    kokoloko from Mexico
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    While I think you the two posters above me are underrating team 1's matchup, I do agree that it would probably win if two equally skilled players were to face off using them. The lack of Stealth Rock on team 2 is the biggest issue here, since you could have very well chosen to use any Pokemon that can carry it over Froslass to set it up.

    Raikou seems like team 2's only real win condition to me here. It has setup opportunities versus Zapdos and -2 Roserade and absolutely nothing on team 1 is safe from it once it sets up. Number one priority for team 2 should be weakening Nidoqueen to the point where a +1 Hidden Power Ice can OHKO it; at that point it has the potential to get a kill every time it comes in.

    I dunno, if team 2 had Stealth Rock Azelf (or even better, Uxie) over Froslass, I'd pick it to win every time, but as it stands, team 1 looks like the winner.
  6. Warb

    Warb

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    If team 2 had Stealth Rocks instead of Spikes, CB Snorlax would be able to reliably OHKO everything on team 1 bar Nidoqueen who can't really hit back.
    Although I guess it would be sufficient to spread a bit of prior damage on things like zapdos and victiny to murder everything. CB snorlax is legitimately scary for team 1, since team 1 doesn't have anything to threaten it directly with an OHKO while it will do at least 80% (which is min damage on Nidoqueen) to anything, if not straight OHKO with Return.
  7. hilarious

    hilarious

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    wtf no SR on team 2? How were these teams even made looool

    But to be honest I think you are seriously underestimating team 2 even if it lacks the most basic and integral part of the majority of teams (sr) because it has the mighty sub CM Raikou with the correct hp (ice is obviously much more useful than grass in this case).

    This is not to mention Slowbro kind of walls half of team 1's attackers (victini, flygon, kingdra) while team 1 has no strong response to it (slowbro can shit around with thunderwave to cripple zapdos and even get an OHKO on roserade with Psyshock).

    Also extremely important with two offensive teams is the fact team 2 has the fastest Pokemon (scarfshao) which can potentially sweep late game if Nidoqueen gets hurt which it will because Nidoqueen must set up SR for team 1 and it has no chances to set up without getting hurt seriously. This also makes it even more likely Raikou will sweep.

    Team 2 everyone seems to be forgetting has strong responses to every single one of team 1's pokemon (slowbro for the physical attackers and snorlax for the special attackers while crobat can still counter roserade too if snorlax is feeling too pressured).

    Team 1 has no real counters for guys like Snorlax and Slowbro.

    If team 2 had sr I would say it is clear team 2 is the winner but as it stands I still think team 2 has a better chance at winning than team 1.
  8. Ernesto

    Ernesto is a motionless pedophile
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    I'd like to agree with you, pif, but I think that you're forgetting something.
    Victini's Bolt Strike is actually a safe move to spam now, OHKOing faster threats except for Raikou and 2HKOing Slowbro and Snorlax, though with a 7% chance to miss. Additionally, its natural bulk makes it hard to take out, Raikou needing two layers of Spikes to get a guaranteed 2HKO.
    What I fear more is that, without SR, team 2 will be hard pressed to beating Zapdos if it's not played too recklessly, since it stops Mienshao from spamming HJK's and its Stone Edge doesn't KO without SR. Additionally, Snorlax would really like to have Lefties this time, since Nidoqueen and Zapdos can really harm it, even if it threatens every single one of team 1's Pokemon with STAB Return (again, though, it can't OHKO Zapdos).
    Team 2 can still win, though, provided it pressures Nidoqueen with Froslass to stop her from setting up easily, and if it can force Victini out to lower its health for it to be on Stone Edge's KO range. Victini's Bolt Strike is still the most threatening move, since not even Raikou can switch in with ease, and it can't set up on it without being too hard pressed. And it's pretty obvious that Raikou is team 2's best win condition, so as long as it doesn't get a free switch in on Zapdos or Roserade, team 1 will have the upper hand. My god, Bolt Strike surely is too powerful on Victini, nothing's safe against it. And nothing except Snorlax can OHKO it back, I fear.

    So, basically, if Victini is allowed to spam Bolt Strike, team 1 will be the winner. However, if Mienshao is well played, it can force it out to Zapdos and give Raikou a turn to set up for free. Froslass will actually be important here, to set up Spikes and force Nidoqueen out. Still, though, a healthy Victini won't need to fear much, since it can break Raikou's Subs without lowering its Defenses and take a +1 Thunderbolt with ease, allowing Raikou to be revenged. If the players are equally good, team 2 will really struggle to win here.
  9. TPO3

    TPO3 Never practice; Always perform.

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    I really like team 1 for the victory. Team 2's only real stop to Roserade is Crobat, and team 1 has lots of Pkmn that threaten Crobat and can wear it dodwn. Zapdos, Nidoqueen, and Victini are safely going to OHKO it, although only Zapdos would really switch in consistently. (which it can do, thanks to team 2 not having Stealth Rock.) Scarf Flygon will force it out. Even Roserade has Sleep Powder, which can severely cripple it. Past Crobat, Team 2 doesn't have many stops. Offensive Roserade's Leaf Storm does 46.42-54.88% to CB Lax, so it can only switch in once. Roserade would break some pretty big holes. Roserade also gets to sleep something, and I can't find anything on Team 2 you would want to be asleep. Slowbro I guess, since people keep saying it's redundant, but CB Victini is going to be a huge pain then.

    I also like that Team 1 has 2 stops to the SubCM Raikou (Nidoqueen and Flygon) as long as they don't play too recklessly, in addition to Victini who will live a +1 Thunderbolt (74sh percent max) as well as Roserade, who may survive a +1 HP Ice, depending on how many layers of Spikes go up. 2 Layers would be doom for Roserade, but if you can keep it to 1, then it might survive. Team 1 Also has multiple checks to Mienshao, being Zapdos, Victini, Flygon, depending on the move it locks into, and a counter in Nidoqueen.

    The way it stands, I like team 1 to win, although I do agree that if Team 2 had Stealth Rock somewhere, the balanced style of Team 2 would wear out Zapdos and Victini quicker, which would be very helpful for Scarf Mienshao, and it might be enough to give team 2 the upper hand, but I'm not sure.
  10. Ace Emerald

    Ace Emerald Horsing around
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    There are three reasons Team 2 (which was made by me, and reviewed by both kokoloko and RT.) lacks Stealth Rock. First off, I though it would make it very hard for Team 1 to stop Mienshao. Victini lacks any recovery, and honestly I think Zapdos is almost a necessary liability for Team 1 (emphasis on necessary, more on that later). Secondly, Raikou is obviously Team 2's wincon, and Spikes turns Nidoqueen (who isn't invested in bulk) into a terrible check. After 2 switches into Spikes and Mienshao's U-turn, Raikou can KO with HP Ice at +1, and proceed to ruin Team 1. It can actually 2HKO with +0 HP Ice with Spikes. Food for thought. Lastly, I honestly don't feel Stealth Rock is as necessary as it used to be. We had this discussion in #genvuu, and there are times where using Stealth Rock gives up momentum, and the -12% really isn't worth it. Now, this isn't one of those battles, as Team 2 would love to wreck Zapdos and Victini, but a team lacking SR isn't necessarily an inferior team anymore.

    I think all the arguments for a Team 1 victory are valid, but I really think everyone is underestimating Team 2's power. So much so, I'll throw my support behind it. When looking at the match up, Team 2 has two huge threats to Team 1: Snorlax and Raikou. Raikou can 2HKO all of Team 1 at +0 with Spikes. It can set up on Roserade, Zapdos, and even to an effect Victini. Snorlax can OHKO nearly every thing on Team 1 and fears pretty much nothing. To make matters worse, both Raikou and Snorlax can easily enter battle thanks to Mienshao and Crobat. The top switches into Mienshao: Zapdos and Nidoqueen, maybe Victini. The top switches into Crobat: Zapdos (Brave Bird 2HKOs everything else with Spikes). Those two can U-turn, and bring in either Snorlax or Raikou to a very good 1v1 match up. Snorlax will kill something, and if Nidoqueen is weakened, Raikou start sweeping. Also, if Nidoqueen bites it, Team 1 has to rely on Flygon to check Raikou. This is also the physical attacker Slowbro can deal with pretty well, if we're sure it won't U-turn. Raikou is a scary, scary sweeper for Team 1.

    Slowbro's use to Team 2 is rather indirect. It doesn't help too much, but it does force Victini and Flygon to U-turn/Fusion Bolt, which really helps Team 2's prediction. Furthermore, it's a little painful to switch into if it gets in on something other than U-turn. Though Froslass is a support mon, and its Ice Beam is rather weak, it's noteworthy that Team 1 has only one Ice resist, and 4 Ice weak. Its a possible lategame sweeper if Team 1 has taken huge hits from Snorlax and Raikou, and anyway you cut it, its a great Spikes setter.
  11. hilarious

    hilarious

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    Wait let me get this straight...are you honestly telling us team 2 is at its best without sr? I kind of get that vibe from your post Ace Emerald but I think I may be misinterpreting your post. In that case you are putting up a team that clearly could be better by putting probably the most basic and common uu move (sr). The fact that team 1 is really weak to sr (it is) and has no true anti sr measure doesn't mean you should just deny team 2 sr it probably means you should have made team 1 less weak to sr. A team without sr and a team with u-turn Victini and Zapdos without any true anti sr measures makes it seem like you're bending over backwards to make sure otherwise mediocre teams have a stronger match up. but even if thats what you're doing creating a shoddy battle I can see your point as its not like a real battle would have 2 players knowing each others Pokemon down to the last EV or having a thread full of discussion to refer to.


    Beyond that little outburst I am still confident team 2 will win. Let me elaborate. Victini isn't as a big of a threat as some of you think because Snorlax can Pursuit him for good damage. I think it matters relatively little if Snorlax has to be sacked to get strong damage on Victini because these special threats that seem at first glance to have a good time are more or less easily set up on by Raikou who absolutely demolishes team 1. Team 1 is so weak to it its best response is a frickin flygon which gets instantly ohkod by him. Thats how weak team 1 is to Raikou.

    Mienshao is a huge asset to team 2 because it has the power to outspeed everyone on team 1 which is extremely useful, as long as Slowbro is alive really with some partners I cannot see team 1 doing enough damage to team 2 to win.
  12. Metal Sonic

    Metal Sonic Turn it up!
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    And then you realise subDD kingdra sets up on slowbro

    Quite a liability for a pokemon which is easily 2HKO'd by Victini and 3HKO'd by Flygon's pathetic U-turn.

    True enough, there are a lack of physical Fighting Type attacks in team 1 to counter snorlax, but the thing is, If I were a team 1 player, I'd readily sack Victini, or even Roserade(with its sleep powder) To knock off Snorlax. With Snorlax gone, half the battle is won. Raikou is easily KO'd by victini and Even more easily revenged by Flygon. Nidoqueen can break subs with Earth power, and Roserade can take a HP Ice and dish back Leaf Storm. Raikou is an offensive monster, but it really has problems protecting itself.

    Victini is one of the biggest threats to Team 2, yet there's no stealth rock to cripple it. Therefore team 1 is going to win


    Also, a question: How long is each round of this game?
  13. Ace Emerald

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    You are indeed misinterpreting me. I'm not saying Team 2 is better without SR, but I am saying (as you seem to agree) that it functions fine without it, and might be a little unbalanced with it. The most important part of the team match up is that the teams are somewhat balanced. Its necessary for me to bend over backwards to fix this, otherwise there would be a clear victor and the project would be no fun. For example, Team 1 originally had Sharpedo over Kingdra, but it would tear through Team 2 too easily, so I had to nerf it. I think the teams are pretty balanced as is, and as I said both koko and RT reviewed them. If you feel that the teams are unrealistic, I can talk with koko/RT about it to make it a priority for next time, but I don't think the teams are very unrealistic, and I while realism is important, I don't think that is the first priority of the project.

    You are seriously underestimating Raikou. Nidoqueen is KO'd with a little passive damage, and as I described, thats easy to get. Its 2HKO'd at +0 with Spikes. Roserade's Leaf Storm doesn't come close to OHKOing at +1, and a +1 HP Ice OHKOs almost always after LO+Spikes. Victini is dangerous, but it's 2HKO'd with Spikes almost always, and Raikou is faster. Flygon is an ok check, but its also one of the weakest attackers on Team 1, and an easy place to lose offensive momentum. If Raikou can get up a Sub (which it does VS a lot of Team 1) something is probably dying even if he doesn't sweep.

    The discussion will be about a week, the poll for battlers will be a few days, the battle will hopefully only be a few days, and I can churn out another 2 teams. I'm thinking the cycle with take about 2 weeks, but this is subject to change as this is the first round.
  14. Ace Emerald

    Ace Emerald Horsing around
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    Bump: its nomination time! Nominate users you would like to see battle, and in a few days I'll put up a poll to vote on which users will battle.
  15. kd24

    kd24 yo daddy musta been a drug dealer? why, cuz you're dope
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    i nominate kd24, jabbathegriffin, and yan[sogeking]
  16. kokoloko

    kokoloko from Mexico
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    RT and FlareBlitz
  17. Ernesto

    Ernesto is a motionless pedophile
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    I think kokoloko and hilarious would make a good matchup, especially after the last tourney finals fiasco...
  18. Nas

    Nas Thinking of a master plan...
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    FlareBlitz and reachzero.
  19. hilarious

    hilarious

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    it is in the op that you are not supposed to just put up a nomination..............

    but if mods do it whatever...i nominate spareaacount assuming he sees this.
  20. TPO3

    TPO3 Never practice; Always perform.

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    I'd like to see RT and FlareBlitz. Two great UUers, but I don't get to see them play too much.
  21. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
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    FlareBlitz and kokoloko
  22. Ace Emerald

    Ace Emerald Horsing around
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    Poll is up! hilarious is right, next time the nomination phase will be combined with the discussion, as was originally intended. Vote away!
  23. Ace Emerald

    Ace Emerald Horsing around
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    The poll is now closed (once I figure out how to close/reset it >.>)! kokoloko and hilarious will face off, kokoloko with Team 1, hilarious with Team 2. I'd like the match to be completed within 3 days, I'll probably just yell at them when I see them both on IRC.
  24. hilarious

    hilarious

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    kokoloko is a little girly girl and wimped out, i wont be on the forums anymore for a few weeks at least so have him play flareblitz i think. although i guess i understand i rather play flareblitz than myself :l
  25. Ace Emerald

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    FlareBlitz has agreed to battle kokoloko using Team 2. For reference, here's an importable pastebin of both teams, mostly so I can link this post when koko finally wants to import his team.
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