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'Dat DisQuake Combo

Discussion in 'BW Other Teams' started by Oyster, Apr 4, 2013.

  1. Oyster

    Oyster

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2010
    Messages:
    112
    Mamoswine + Rotom-W is the best pairing I have used in VGC thus far (feel free to post another great one if you want), and so I decided to build a team using this duo as my core.

    [​IMG][​IMG]
    I think started brainstorming other things which every good VGC team needs, and I came up with the following list:

    -Fake Out support
    -Speed control
    -A weather counter
    -A Trick Room counter
    -An answer to Cress
    -Something that can take on the common Dragon types

    When I think of Fake Out support and a weather counter, the first two pokes that pop into my head are Hitmontop and Virizion, which is nice, because those two complement each other well. The fact that both are weak to Flying types is mitigated by the fact that both Mamoswine and Rotom wreck Flying types, so I think I'm solid on that front. Both Hitmontop and Virizion are equipped with a means of taking on Cresselia, to boot. (Sucker Punch and X-Scissor, respectively.)
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    I still needed speed control, a Trick Room counter, and an answer to Dragon types, so I added the only poke I know that gets priority on both Tailwind and Taunt: Tornadus. Since I wanted a way to protect Virizion from Ice and Fire types on top of the ability to beat Dragons, I chose Heatran for the last spot.
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    Let's look at the team in depth:

    [​IMG]
    Hitmontop (M) @ Fighting Gem
    Trait: Intimidate
    Level: 50
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    - Fake Out
    - Close Combat
    - Sucker Punch
    - Wide Guard

    With Intimidate, Fake Out, and Wide Guard, Hitmontop's role is that of a supporter. Virizion in particular enjoys his company, but Tornadus also appreciates having enemies off his back while he sets up Tailwind. Considering the popularity of spread moves in this metagame, Wide Guard is a welcome addition, and Sucker Punch can fend off Cresselia or a Latios attempting to sweep.

    [​IMG]
    Virizion @ Life Orb
    Trait: Justified
    Level: 50
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Spd / 252 Atk
    Jolly Nature
    - Leaf Blade
    - Sacred Sword
    - X-Scissor
    - Protect

    Virizion is here mainly to shut down rain and sand teams, and it fills this role well. Tyranitar and Excadrill are terrified of Sacred Sword, and few rain sweepers can handle Leaf Blade. X-Scissor is handy mainly for the same reason as Sucker Punch on Hitmontop: to deal with Cresselia. I'm considering running Stone Edge in the place of X-Scissor, but so far there's been no need for it.

    [​IMG]
    Mamoswine (M) @ Ice Gem
    Trait: Thick Fat
    Level: 50
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    - Ice Shard
    - Icicle Crash
    - Earthquake
    - Protect

    Ice is the best offensive type in the game, and even more so in VGC. Therefore, I use this badass in every single game I play in. Priority with Ice Gem-boosted Ice Shard has saved my hide countless times, and the power provided by Icicle Crash and Earthquake is unmatched. Being able to pull off the DisQuake combo with Rotom is another big plus.
    [​IMG]
    Rotom (Rotom-Wash) @ Sitrus Berry
    Trait: Levitate
    Level: 50
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 SAtk / 4 SDef
    Modest Nature
    - Discharge
    - Hydro Pump
    - Thunder Wave
    - Protect

    Considering how Mamoswine is a little slow to be the main sweeper on the team, he really appreciates Thunder Wave support from this guy. Rotom is also the bulkiest member of my team (especially with a Sitrus Berry), and spamming Hydro Pump while I'm down has saved my hide a couple of times. Having a strong spread move in Dischage is handy too. (Once again, DisQuake.)

    [​IMG]
    Tornadus (M) @ Flying Gem
    Trait: Prankster
    Level: 50
    EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd / 4 HP
    Jolly Nature
    - Tailwind
    - Acrobatics
    - Taunt
    - Protect

    Tornadus, like Hitmontop, is mainly a supporter, and his ability to control the match with priority Tailwind and Taunt is invaluable to the team. In addition, an incredibly powerful Flying Gem-boosted Acrobatics helps scare Fighting-types away from Heatran and Mamoswine, making it easier to make a big endgame push.
    [​IMG]
    Heatran (M) @ Shuca Berry
    Trait: Flash Fire
    Level: 50
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 Spd / 4 HP
    Modest Nature
    - Heat Wave
    - Earth Power
    - Hidden Power [Ice]
    - Protect

    Besides serving as my Dragon counter, Heatran is also a great partner for Virizion thanks to both Ice and Fire types being afraid to tango with him. His Heat Wave is one of the more useful spread moves out there, and it becomes terrifying if boosted by Flash Fire. His ground weakness can be annoying though, so I gave him a Shuca Berry to cope.

    Importable:
    Show Hide

    Hitmontop (M) @ Fighting Gem
    Trait: Intimidate
    Level: 50
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    - Fake Out
    - Close Combat
    - Sucker Punch
    - Wide Guard
    Virizion @ Life Orb
    Trait: Justified
    Level: 50
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Spd / 252 Atk
    Jolly Nature
    - Leaf Blade
    - Sacred Sword
    - X-Scissor
    - Protect
    Mamoswine (M) @ Ice Gem
    Trait: Thick Fat
    Level: 50
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    - Ice Shard
    - Icicle Crash
    - Earthquake
    - Protect
    Rotom (Rotom-Wash) @ Sitrus Berry
    Trait: Levitate
    Level: 50
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 SAtk / 4 SDef
    Modest Nature
    - Discharge
    - Hydro Pump
    - Thunder Wave
    - Protect
    Tornadus (M) @ Flying Gem
    Trait: Prankster
    Level: 50
    EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd / 4 HP
    Jolly Nature
    - Tailwind
    - Acrobatics
    - Taunt
    - Protect
    Heatran (M) @ Shuca Berry
    Trait: Flash Fire
    Level: 50
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 Spd / 4 HP
    Modest Nature
    - Heat Wave
    - Earth Power
    - Hidden Power [Ice]
    - Protect


    Also, a quick question. Do you guys prefer shiny Virizion, or normal Virizion? I can't decide myself.
  2. tlyee61

    tlyee61

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2010
    Messages:
    376
    HOLY SHIT VIRIZION <33333333333333333333333333333 (also, pink virizion is more manly :D)
    anyway, cool team (looks like mine ;) http://nuggetbridge.com/reports/virizion-wireless/)
    One thing I noticed is that most of your EV spreads are 252 / 252. This is not necessarily a bad thing, but they could easily be optimized by using a damage calculator such as http://honko.byethost8.com/manly_calc.html . One thing I noticed about your team is that most Pokemon share a common weakness. This is not bad either, but you might have trouble if they are both out at the same time. Examples of these are Mamoswine and Rotom with Grass, Hitmontop and Virizion with Psychic and Mamoswine and Heatran with Water. From my ~5 months of testing a team with 3/6 of the same members (see above article) I can tell you that Hitmontop doesn't work very well with Virizion. They both are walled by the same Pokemon, and on the team, something else with either Intimidate or Fake Out, like Salamence. (although it would add another Ice weakness, but it would resist EQ!) Now, onto the team:

    Hitmontop looks good so far.

    Virizion: I had tried X-Scissor and it did pitiful damage to most Cress I saw, although the calcs say otherwise. (252 Atk Virizion X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 4+ Def Cresselia: 206-244 (90.74 - 107.48%) -- 43.75% chance to OHKO / although lots of cress run some defense) I might replace it with Stone Edge to get some coverage on Flying-types, but you could also keep it as a nice little check to the annoying pink duck.

    Mamoswine: try Icicle Spear > Icicle Crash. It breaks sashes and subs (commonly used by chomp and landorus) and as a bonus, each hit is boosted by Ice Gem! Otherwise, it looks good.

    Rotom-W: I might replace TWave or Protect with TBolt because most of your other team members don't resist Discharge and have to waste a turn Protecting themselves. Also, you already have speed control with Tornadus' Tailwind. Alternatively, you could try Choice Scarf / Specs and go with Hydro Pump / Discharge / HP Grass / TBolt or Volt Switch or Trick.

    Tornadus: Looks pretty good, but I might try Defiant because of how common Intimidate is in this metagame and the fact that Tornadus is already really fast. Also, you could try Superpower in there for some nice coverage with Flying! Plus, against Intimidators, he'll already have a +1 boost, so the drop from Superpower is negated!

    Heatran: Looks good, I might try Sub > HP Ice because you already have some nice Ice coverage with Mamoswine.

    Remember how I said to try some "more creative" EVs at the beginning of the RMT? Here are some starting point for you to base your spreads off of:

    Virizion (With a Grass Gem, not Life Orb): 116 HP / 220 Atk / 132 Def / 4 SDef / 36 Speed Adamant
    here' a nice little list that I compiled of what it survives and kills:

    Survives:
    252+ SpA Cresselia Psyshock vs. 116 HP / 132 Def Virizion: 116-138 (64.08 - 76.24%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252+ SpA Cresselia Ice Beam vs. 116 HP / 4 SpD Virizion: 68-80 (37.56 - 44.19%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    252+ Atk Tyranitar Fire Punch vs. 116 HP / 132 Def Virizion: 106-126 (58.56 - 69.61%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252+ Atk Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 116 HP / 132 Def Virizion: 106-126 (58.56 - 69.61%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Zen Headbutt has a 68.75% chance to OHKO)
    252 Atk Garchomp Dragon Claw vs. 116 HP / 132 Def Virizion: 76-90 (41.98 - 49.72%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (Adamant: 252+ Atk Garchomp Dragon Claw vs. 116 HP / 132 Def Virizion: 84-99 (46.4 - 54.69%) -- 57.03% chance to 2HKO)
    252+ Atk Technician Scizor Bug Bite vs. 116 HP / 132 Def Virizion: 93-111 (51.38 - 61.32%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252+ Atk Fighting Gem Hitmontop Close Combat vs. 116 HP / 132 Def Virizion: 150-177 (82.87 - 97.79%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252 SpA Latios Psyshock vs. 116 HP / 132 Def Virizion: 152-180 (83.97 - 99.44%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252 SpA Dragon Gem Latios Draco Meteor vs. 116 HP / 4 SpD Virizion: 144-171 (79.55 - 94.47%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Hidden Power Ice vs. 116 HP / 4 SpD Virizion: 83-99 (45.85 - 54.69%) -- 47.66% chance to 2HKO
    252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus-T Hidden Power Ice vs. 116 HP / 4 SpD Virizion: 91-109 (50.27 - 60.22%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252+ SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Fire Blast vs. 116 HP / 4 SpD Virizion: 153-182 (84.53 - 100.55%) -- 6.25% chance to OHKO
    252 SpA Dragon Gem Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 116 HP / 4 SpD Virizion: 141-166 (77.9 - 91.71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252+ SpA Heatran Heat Wave vs. 116 HP / 4 SpD Virizion: 152-180 (83.97 - 99.44%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Single Target!!)
    252+ SpA Abomasnow Blizzard vs. 116 HP / 4 SpD Virizion: 144-170 (79.55 - 93.92%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Single Target!)
    252 SpA Life Orb Zapdos Heat Wave vs. 116 HP / 4 SpD Virizion: 117-138 (64.64 - 76.24%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Single Target!)
    252+ SpA Life Orb Chandelure Heat Wave vs. 116 HP / 4 SpD Virizion: 159-190 (87.84 - 104.97%) -- 31.25% chance to OHKO (double target)
    252+ SpA Volcarona Heat Wave vs. 116 HP / 4 SpD Virizion: 116-138 (64.08 - 76.24%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252+ SpA Volcarona Bug Buzz vs. 116 HP / 4 SpD Virizion: 70-84 (38.67 - 46.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    +2 252+ SpA Volcarona Bug Buzz vs. 116 HP / 4 SpD Virizion: 139-165 (76.79 - 91.16%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    Kills:
    220+ Atk Virizion Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tyranitar: 232-280 (112.07 - 135.26%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    220+ Atk Grass Gem Virizion Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rindo Berry Gastrodon: 174-206 (79.81 - 94.49%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (not many run 252 HP / 252 Def Bold Rindo)
    220+ Atk Grass Gem Virizion Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Politoed: 240-284 (121.82 - 144.16%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    220+ Atk Grass Gem Virizion Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Rotom-W: 182-216 (115.92 - 137.57%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    220+ Atk Virizion Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Hydreigon: 138-164 (69.34 - 82.41%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    220+ Atk Virizion Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Abomasnow: 162-192 (82.23 - 97.46%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    20+ Atk Grass Gem Virizion Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Rotom-W: 182-216 (115.92 - 137.57%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    220+ Atk Grass Gem Virizion Leaf Blade vs. 4 HP / 4 Def Terrakion: 206-246 (123.35 - 147.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    220+ Atk Grass Gem Virizion Leaf Blade vs. 4 HP / 4 Def Kingdra: 100-118 (66.22 - 78.14%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    220+ Atk Virizion Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chople Berry Ferrothorn: 39-46 (21.54 - 25.41%) -- possible 4HKO
    220+ Atk Virizion Sacred Sword vs. 4 HP / 4 Def Excadrill: 188-224 (101.07 - 120.43%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    Tornadus: 36 HP / 132 Atk / 4 Def / 86 SpD / 252 speed

    Great set that allows you to still get the OHKO on fighting mons like Hitmontop, Scrafty, etc. 36 HP EVs and 86 SpD EVs allows you to survive a non-boosted, not much EV invested common bulky standard Thundurus with a Calm nature, only allowing 20%-40% chance of KOing, so you will only have a sliver of HP left before you die. You could run more SpD if you just really wanna take hits, up to you. 36 HP and 4 Def EVs allow you to take a rock slide with a sliver at full health. Tailwind is there for some speed utility during the game. Protect is stressed staple, can't build teams without it. Superpower is to pick off weak Tyranitar, Metagross, Scrafty, Hydreigon, etc. Acrobatics, self-explanatory, it's signature STAB move.

    Heatran: 52 HP / 252 SAtk / 204 Spd

    In terms of EV’s it’s pretty simple. 204 Speed Modest outruns max speed base 70’s, particularly Hitmontop. That means I could get a Substitute up to block a Close Combat, dropping their stats in the process. Afterwards, I would retaliate with a Heat Wave, hopefully knocking them off the field. Max Special Attack is just to hit as hard as I could. The rest were dumped in HP for marginal bulk, but as I later found out, sometimes that couple of hit points made all the difference.
  3. TheMantyke

    TheMantyke ᴵ ᶰᵉᵉᵈ ᵃ ᵐᵒᶰˢᵗᵉʳ ᵗᵒ ᶜᶫᵒᵇᵇᵉʳ ᵗʰᵃᵗ ᵗʰᵉʳᵉ ᴷᶦʳᵇʸ
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Team Rater Alumnus
    VGC Leader

    Joined:
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    Messages:
    5,443
    tlyee61 covered a lot of the simple changes I wanted to recommend like Icicle Spear > Icicle Crash on Mamoswine, Sub > HP Ice on Heatran, and Thunderbolt > Thunder Wave on Rotom-W, so I'll just skip to the one big recommended change I'd make for your team.

    The way you talk about Tornadus makes me think it's kind of out of place on your team. Relying on it as your main source of speed control; keeping your Pokemon fast and preventing others from setting up Trick Room, seems pretty risky given Tornadus's fragility. I think you ought to try a Cresselia, a much bulkier alternative to Tornadus who lends your team similar speed control and a few awesome options Tornadus lacks.

    [​IMG]
    Cresselia @ Leftovers
    Levitate
    Calm
    252 HP / 252 SpDef / 6 Def (feel free to play with the distrobution of bulk as you see fit)
    -Psyshock
    -Icy Wind
    -Helping Hand
    -Trick Room

    Most of your team is reasonably fast already, so the difference between the -1 and +2 of Icy Wind and Tailwind isn't that large a deal. Additionally, Cresselia has so many more switch in opportunities than Tornadus as everything that's not a strong STAB neutral or Super Effective hit bounces right off of it. Unlike Tornadus, you can end Trick Room at any time with Cresselia simply with your own Trick Room. This means if you pick the wrong lead combination or something like that, all's not lost. However, I think Helping Hand is really the thing that makes Cresselia eclipse Tornadus above all else. You have some really powerful spread moves at your disposal and Helping Hand drives their power through the roof. Helping Hand boosted Earthquakes and Heat Waves are absolutely fantastic, especially when you're outrunning everything thanks to Cresselia Icy Winding the previous turn.

    Also, this is kind of minor, but I would recommend making your Heatran female instead of male. It doesn't matter much, but occasionally Pokemon like Sableye will carry captivate to lower the Special Attack of 100% male special attackers like Thundurus and Latios. Switching to female will make you immune to those select few.

    I guess that's kind of a lengthy explanation for a single Pokemon, but I hope I helped. You have a really solid goodstuffs team on your hands!
  4. Oyster

    Oyster

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2010
    Messages:
    112
    Thank you for the very in-depth rate! I'll be sure to try out these changes. I'm especially interested in the idea of replacing Thunder Wave with Thunderbolt on Rotom, and of course experimenting more with EV's. I'm hesitant to replace Icicle Crash with Icicle Spear because of the consistancy issue, but I'll try it. Replacing HP Ice with Sub on Heatran seems like a fine idea. I'd love to try out a Defiant Tornadus, but I unfortunately don't have access to the Dream Radar, and I don't want to use PokeCheck for personal reasons. I may have to see if anyone will trade me one.

    Thank you again for providing those calcs! Isn't Virizion awesome?

    Thank you! I'll give that Cresselia a shot. I just have some reservations about using the number one most common pokemon in VGC. I must be a hipster or something. Unfortunately, I'm also a mysoginist, so the idea of using the weaker sex on my team doesn't sit very well with me. I'll grit my teeth and change Heatran to female though. (That was a joke, women are great.)

    Once again, thank you for the great tips! Also, Mantyke, you have a reputation of being an excellent supplier of VGC pokes. Do you have a Jolly Defiant Tornadus? (I'm still going to try out Cresselia extensively, I'd just like to test both suggestions.)
  5. tlyee61

    tlyee61

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2010
    Messages:
    376
    A spread you could try with Cress is 252 HP / 52 Def / 28 SpAtk / 176 SpDef. This allows you to survive Max Attack TTar Crunch, Hitmontop Fake Out followed by a +1 Bug Buzz from Volcarona. Also, it allows you to 2HKO Hitmontop with Psyshock and 3HKO the genies that don;t significantly invest in bulk (see Sitrus Thundurus) (probably 2HKO Landorus, I haven't calced that yet :P)

    No problem! :D
    Many are willing to give you free Pokemon here: http://nuggetbridge.com/forums/forum/3-trading-breeding/
    It may also be helpful to repost your team there because they're a community dedicated to VGC! :D
  6. Oyster

    Oyster

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2010
    Messages:
    112
    Thank you once again tlyee! I'll be sure to check out NuggetBridge. That's actually where I learned how to do RNG abuse, so I already have some experience with the site.

    Testing update: Most of the changes, such as Thunderbolt on Rotom and Substitute on Heatran, have been going very well. Defiant Tornadus and Cresselia are both testing amazingly, and it will be a tough choice deciding between the two. I've especially enjoyed powering Mamoswine's Earthquake up with Cresselia's Helping Hand and switching Tornadus into an Icy Wind and dominating with +2 Flying Gem Acrobatics.

    The two changes which have not tested quite as well for me are Icicle Spear on Mamoswine and using Adamant Virizion. I have gotten only two hits with Icicle Spear more often than I feel like I should, and I have missed out on some KO's because of it, but I will stick with it for now because a run of bad luck shouldn't outweigh the obvious merits. I'm finding Adamant Virizion to be too slow for me to be able to use it effectively (which is odd, considering that your extensive experience with Virizion makes you much more qualified to determine its best set than I, tlyee). Too often, Virizion is knocked out by an Ice Beam or Acrobatics before it can land a hit, so I may have to switch back to Jolly. Would you be able to offer an effective Jolly set, or should I just revert to 252/252?
  7. tlyee61

    tlyee61

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2010
    Messages:
    376
    hahaha, I'm not the final judge on what goes on your team. Jolly Virizion would work fine I'm sure, I just need to change some Speed EVs around. Great that you're familiar with Nuggetbridge, it's a wonderful site.

    EDIT: Jolly Virizion's EVs would be 116 HP / 44 Atk / 132 Def / 4 SDef / 212 Spd
    (outruns Max Speed Jolly Chomp, doesn't have nearly as much power though)
    you can take out some speed and add it into attack. 252 / 252 would be fine for Jolly too.
  8. Oyster

    Oyster

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2010
    Messages:
    112
    You're the man.
  9. tlyee61

    tlyee61

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2010
    Messages:
    376
    haha np prob!

    let me know via PM or something if you need any more help! :D

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