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Dedicated Rain? Ubers RMT

Discussion in 'BW Other Teams' started by Double Electric, Oct 1, 2012.

  1. Double Electric

    Double Electric

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2009
    Messages:
    162
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    I originally made this team with the general purpose of making a team that made full use of Drizzle with the stipulation of being a little more reliant on weather than usual. I considered that Drought and Sandstorm are very often overly reliant on their respective weather, even though Rain is arguably the easiest weather to keep up, assuming both players are of equal skill.

    Well... how about taking advantage of that then? Essentially, this team makes a tradeoff: In exchange for being very potent while in rain, this team becomes somewhat neutered if I end up losing the weather war. But since rain already has a natural advantage over Drought and Sandstorm, I play this team banking on the strategy that I'll have a better chance at winning the weather war than my opponent without resorting to the specialized or anti-metagame tactics that Groudon and Tyrannitar usually have to resort to in order to beat Kyogre.

    Furthermore, due to the fact that it uses Drizzle to a greater extent than most opposing Drought teams, I stand to have a natural advantage against opponents who also use Kyogre as their sole weather changer.

    Well, that's the theory, anyway. In practice, this team does decently, but since I'm not the best Uber player in the world, I usually end up evenly matched with players along a certain, higher than average point on the ladder. Still, I think that perhaps a better Pokemon player might be able to make better use of this team than I have thus far. Why not give it a try and see if it works?

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    Ferrothorn @ Leftovers
    Ability: Iron Barbs
    EVs: 252 HP, 28 Atk, 208 SpD, 0 Spe IVs
    Nature: Sassy
    - Stealth Rock
    - Gyro Ball
    - Leech Seed
    - Spikes

    While in the past I could often make due without it, Stealth Rock has more or less become obligatory in Ubers with the introduction of Multiscale Ho-oh and the newly viable Kyurem formes. Gyro Ball is a necessity over Power Whip, now with the Lati twins and the Kyurem formes suddenly becoming huge threats. Leech Seed is extremely useful for keeping Ferrothorn's health up, and is oftentimes the go-to move to use when the opponent is packing a reliable spinner, and it still covers most of what I would have used Power Whip against.

    Spikes is somewhat of a filler, but it's not actually uncommon for uber teams to not pack a rapid spinner, not to mention it synergizes well with the fact that I carry a phazer. It also ensures that I'm not at a statistical disadvantage if I end up having to trade hazards with the opponent's Ferrothorn.

    The most troubling aspect of using Ferrothorn is that I suddenly lack a spinner in Forretress. However, considering how easy it is to spinblock in ubers, more often than not, Forretress has ended up playing as an inferior Ferrothorn in many of the matches I've used it. And don't even get me started on Excadrill. With Gliscor on the same team, the last thing I want on a drizzle team is to stack up a weakness to water and Arceus Normal's Earthquake.

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    Kyogre @ Leftovers
    Ability: Drizzle
    EVs: 252 HP, 252 SpA, 4 Spe
    Nature: Modest
    - Toxic
    - Surf
    - Thunder
    - Ice Beam

    While the EVs I've listed are the standard, I often speed creep so I can better judge what type of Groudon I'm facing at the beginning of a match if I lead with this.

    Toxic has become that much more useful on Kyogre with Latias now haphazardly switching into Kyogre every chance it gets, and even without Latias, Toxic is very useful to throw around in Ubers regardless. Beware of Ferrothorn, though. I used to use Calm Mind in this slot, but in the new metagame, Kyogre hardly ever has the opportunity to set up with Calm Mind alone, and it loses if it's ever forced into a Calm Mind war.

    The rest of Kyogre's attacks are simply to make it has hard as possible for anything to set up on it, which is why Surf is chosen over Scald. Simply put, the ability to not be easily set up on by things like Mewtwo, Normal Arceus and Rayquaza is invaluable in Ubers. I've considered having Rest and a Chesto Berry to better handle Darkrai and Toxic Spikes, but the extra HP in Leftovers + the extra coverage is far more reliable than a one time full healing that more often than not, I'm not even able to use.

    Basically, Kyogre is just a strong Pokemon that can take a hit and reliably halt at least one Uber sweeper, which is a much bigger deal than it sounds. It's also one of the most important Pokemon on my team with its Drizzle ability, which is why I really appreciate having Ferrothorn and Dialga to sponge those extra hits Kyogre might otherwise take in their place.

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    Gliscor @ Toxic Orb
    Ability: Poison Heal
    EVs: 252 HP, 40 Def, 216 Spe
    Nature: Jolly
    - Earthquake
    - Substitute
    - Taunt
    - Toxic

    As many Pokemon players will attest, Gliscor is a perfectly viable Pokemon in the Uber tier. Much like Ferrothorn, it's also remarkably useful against a vast majority of the Pokemon that tend to threaten Rain teams. Groudon, even with a Lum Berry, cannot get past Gliscor without crippling itself to the point where it becomes that much more likely I will win the weather war with my Kyogre. IMO, Gliscor checks Groudon about as well as Latias checks Kyogre.

    I run Taunt over Protect, because otherwise I'm just begging entry hazard setters and almost any support Pokemon to have their way with me, not to mention I can now shut down Roar and Dragon Tail at the same time. Taunt also shuts down recovery attempts, making Glisor a surprsingly horrible obstacle to face for most stall teams. It can also clean up that last 20% on an Uber base 90, or Toxic them before they can Substitute.

    The nice thing about Toxic is that steel entry hazard users are somewhat reluctant to switch in. Ferrothorn can switch in a bit better, but then I just Taunt it and predict/switch to something else.

    It's not worth it trying to tie with base 95s, because the Kyurem formes KO me, while I have a 50% chance to do jack to them in return. Rayquaza is much in the same boat. I do generally speed creep at least one point though, because then I automatically win against most other Gliscor by Taunting them and forcing them to struggle.

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    Manaphy @ Leftovers
    Ability: Hydration
    EVs: 252 HP, 6 SpA, 252 Spe
    Nature: Timid
    - Calm Mind
    - Scald
    - Ice Beam
    - Rest
    Some would question the use of Manaphy because it exacerbates my weaknesses to Ferrothorn and Lati@s. Calm Mind Manaphy is severely threatened by critical hits, and it's also incredibly weak to any kind of Phazer, and with Rest not clearing up on the first turn if I get phazed out mid-sleep, there seems to be a lot of reason to not use this.

    Still, it's hard to deny the usability of something that is immune to status and can heal itself anytime it wants. Manaphy prevents Darkrai from shutting my team down (unless it gets haxed by Dark Pulse), it's immune to Toxic Spikes and Thunder Wave, it always outspeeds non-scarfed base-90s, and is an effective sweeper and psuedo tank in one. It also trolls anything that uses Grass Knot as a coverage move against water types. Having Manaphy can really help compensate for my lack of a Rapid Spinner, due to its ability to not get worn down as easily.

    Due to the weakness stacking, I make sure to cover Manaphy's weakness as well as I can. Everything on my team other than Kyogre resists Electric, and Ferrothorn and Dialga resist the less common grass.

    In theory, a Ghost pokemon would probably work better in this slot for me, but Giratina-A just doesn't have Manaphy's survivability against opposing stall tactics. Plus, it's role kept overlapping with Dialga's.

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    Dialga @ Leftovers
    Ability: Pressure
    EVs: 252 HP, 252 Spd, 4 Spe
    Nature: Careful
    - Bulk Up
    - Substitute
    - Dragon Tail
    - Earthquake

    Like Kyogre, I tend to speed creep this thing, which can be absolutely game changing against opposing Giratina that carry Will-o-wisp or base 90s that try to phaze me out after I've gathered some boosts.

    Dialga is the reason why my team isn't skewered up the butt by Ferrothorn in every way possible. In fact, the reason why I made this thing in the first place was because I needed something that could effortlessly set up on the one Pokemon that gave everyone else on my team the most trouble. It also synergizes quite well with Ferrothorn's possible hazards, and gives me a fair chance to beat opposing Smeargle Smashpass teams. It also serves as a general special wall and a somewhat comfortable stop to things like Palkia. It can also act as a one-time emergency button against most Mewtwo and about 50% of Normal Arceus. The biggest flaw with this set is the fact that it doesn't have any recovery, but there's no real way to fix this other than by making smart judgements about whether or not to sacrifice it against a given team.

    I used to have a generic Outrage set, but ultimately, I needed something more spammable, and with a hazard setter, I really appreciate having a way to phaze things. Earthquake makes people laugh at me sometimes, but it's still the best coverage move along with Dragon Tail, even with Lugia and Latias phazing me out before I can move. Bulk Up allows me to actually threaten the opposing team instead of merely annoy it, and with Dragon Tail, I actually stand a fair chance at being able to keep my boosts. After all, I'll generally only get one or two switches into the opponent's Ferrothorn, and it's best to make those switches count.

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    Arceus - Electric @ Zap Plate
    Ability: Multitype
    EVs: 4 HP, 252 SpA, 252 Spe
    Nature: Timid
    - Calm Mind
    - Thunder
    - Ice Beam
    - Recover

    Yes, it seems odd that "Double Electric" would be using an Electric Arceus, right? In all seriousness though, it seems odd to have an Electric Arceus when there are so many to choose from, but rest assured, I wracked my brain for a long time before settling on this one.

    Firstly, I needed my Arceus to be able to handle Ho-oh in the rain, which basically narrowed everything down right off the bat to this, Rock and Steel. I really wanted to use Ghost, but then I'd be forced to run a defensive set to deal with Ho-oh, which opens up a whole 'nother host of problems. My Arceus also needed to be able to take a hit from Palkia, Mewtwo and Normal-Arceus, and to take water attacks if need be. Rock is weak to water, and Steel is weak to Sacred Fire. Also, Rock and Steel Arceus are unable to prevent Normal Arceus and +1 Mewtwo from sweeping without Will-o-wisp or Roar, which leads me to Arceus-E's true advantage over its other formes--Thunder.

    Thunder has its disadvantages to be sure, but it also means that almost nothing can set up on me, and it definitely gives me a huge advantage in Calm Mind wars with other Arceus. Being able to cripple opposing set-up sweepers in one turn with a strong attack like Thunder is extremely important in a metagame where one free turn can pretty much mean GG.

    Ice Beam is a beautiful tool against Groudon, and is a reasonable clean-up tool if I'm stuck sweeping at the end with Drought up.

    I'm unsure about Arceus-E's EVs. I'd love the opportunity to be able to take hits better, but then I might not be able to threaten opposing sweepers without the Special Attack investment (Arceus always needs its Speed). Any thoughts?

    Threats:

    Show Hide
    Arceus-Normal - While it's impossible to really shut down Arceus Normal, my team is about as prepared for it as a balanced team could possibly be. Every single member of my team is capable of pressuring Normal Arceus in some way, meaning that I stand a good chance at containing it at the very least with some smart play. Basically, with the right move, item or EV-Spread, Arceus-Normal can get past certain members of my team, but never all of them at once. Ferrothorn Leech Seeds and Gyro Balls, Kyogre outright attacks with Surf, Dialga phazes it, Arceus-Electric can strike back at it with Thunder, and if it tries to set up on them, Gliscor and Manaphy still have a decent chance of statusing it. Basically, Arceus can still sweep me, but I'm about as prepared as I could really hope to be without running a defensive Will-o-wisp spread on my own Arceus.

    Arceus Formes - For the most part, Calm Minders with Substitute or Roar are the most threatening to me, mostly because they tend to come in on Ferrothorn, and also because of the surprise value. Dragon Arceus is probably the most potent of these. Dialga's Dragon Tail can help, especially if I catch it by surprise, not to mention a well-placed Toxic or Leech Seed on the switch. Any other variants of Arceus tend to be extremely vulnerable to getting hit by Toxic.

    Blaziken - Handled decently by anything that isn't Dialga or Ferrothorn as long as I keep it from setting up and make an effort to keep Drizzle active. In other words, through smart play.

    Chansey and Blissey - It blocks Kyogre and Arceus full stop, but is almost helpless against any of my other Pokemon. Still not to be discounted as a threat.

    Darkrai - Clever opponents can predict with Nasty Plot or hax me with Dark Pulse, but more often than not, Manaphy acts as a good enough deterrent against this thing. Otherwise, activate Sleep Clause and send in pretty much anything that isn't Gliscor. Note that Trick doesn't make Manaphy totally useless, because his speed is maxed and I have an immunity to Thunder Wave.

    Deoxys-A/N - Basically, play around with Gliscor's, Dialga's and Ferrothorn's resistances to wear down Psycho Boost and Superpower. I've even set up a Calm Mind on this thing with Arceus-Electric a couple times.

    Deoxyx-S - *Shrug*. Just attack it twice and hopes it taunts on the first turn. If I'm feeling cheeky, I can sometimes lead with Dialga and Dragon Tail it as it Taunts.

    Dialga - Offensive Dialga is nasty, mostly because it's unexpected. Defusing its Draco Meteor with Ferrothorn helps immensely. Offensive versions with Dragon Pulse can be set up on with Arceus-Electric, with a little luck of course. Defensive versions often have trouble with my Gliscor as well, as Substitute can handle Draco Meteor and Dragon Tail. Finally, my own Dialga is strong enough to take a hit from even some Smash-Passed Dialga, and Dragon Tail or Earthquake it in return.

    Ditto - No sweeper on my team is threatened in any way by Ditto, other than the potential for a lucky critical. In fact, the most dangerous target for enemy Ditto is probably my Ferrothorn, which means I have to play pretty carefully if I want to get any hazards down at all.

    Excadrill - Non-Air Balloon Excadrill are a joke against Gliscor, especially in rain. Air-Balloon versions are much the opposite and sometimes require a sacrifice to beat. Ultimately though, it really comes down to who wins the weather war...

    Ferrothorn - Even with Dialga being designed almost solely to set up on this thing... ouch. It's still a very nasty opponent for me to face, and it forces me to predict double switches a lot more than I should. The variants with Power Whip are the most threatening, because then the only thing other than Dialga that can handle it is my own Arceus, who is usually already worn down by my opponent's Palkia or Mewtwo or sweeping-Arceus or Toxic Spikes or whatever. Leech Seed makes dealing with it even harder.

    Still, Ferrothorn can only have four moveslots. If it has Power Whip, it probably has to carry Gyro Ball as well (otherwise that team is begging to be set up on pretty quickly by Lati@s and friends). If the remaining two moves are entry hazards, that means it can't Leech Seed, which means that Arceus has a much easier time with it. If it has one hazard and Leech Seed, then it's a little less threatening to my team's stability overall, particularly if that hazard is Stealth Rock (which the introduction of Regenerator Ho-oh and the Kyurem formes strongly push for). Finally, if Ferrothorn lacks Power Whip to begin with, Manaphy basically has a field day with it and can set up on it or mark it with a burn, with or without Leech Seed.

    So all in all, Ferrothorn is a pain, but it's still manageable.

    Forretress - I really wanted to use Forretress instead of Ferrothorn, but Forretress simply doesn't cover opposing rain threats as well as Ferrothorn does. For the most part, it's completely defenseless, and can only switch in on Ferrothorn, allowing me to double switch to Gliscor much of the time and Taunt/Substitute on the switch in. Surprise HP Buttsecks-Ice can be a problem for Gliscor, of course. Everything on my team can also set up on it if it comes down to that. Unlike Ferrothorn, Forretress isn't a defensive threat against my team at all. Still, it'll always get to Rapid Spin, and that can't be underestimated.

    Gastrodon - Kyogre, the only Pokemon Gastrodon has any use against at all in Ubers, can Toxic this thing, basically making it completely pointless. It also gives Manaphy wet dreams.

    Garchomp - Scarfed versions can hurt me, but they can't sweep my whole team in one sitting. Ferrothorn is a nice check against it, and Gliscor takes advantage of those trying to hit Dialga and Arceus's Ground weakness. Non-scarfed versions are outsped and usually taken care of by my Arceus, but I can't switch in on it.

    Genesect - Has a lot of trouble with my Arceus, Ferrothorn and Dialga. Also generally ends up having to take a lot of Earthquakes from my Gliscor to break my Substitutes, and it has to lock itself onto Ice Beam to do it. It's not really that threatening to me.

    Giratina - Defensive versions are more often than not, a joke against my Gliscor and Dialga, not to mention my Manaphy in some cases. Giratina has the potential to be a real game-breaker against me with Calm Mind and Subtitute, however. It isn't impossible for me to beat this, but it's definitely one of my weak points.

    Giratina-O - Not as threatening as Giratina, as it lacks leftovers and has a tougher time setting up do to it's lower defenses. Can be a pain if Gliscor misses with Toxic before it Subtsitutes, however.

    Groudon - Groudon would be a huge problem for my team if not for the fact that Gliscor can make the vast majority virtually useless. Well, not really--but if Groudon tries to beat Gliscor, it's going to be so worn down by Toxic in the end, that I'm almost assured to win the weather war in the end. The more offensive versions can leave Gliscor with around 25% health if they get lucky, but even then, they'll usually end up dying.

    Also, most everything on my team other than Dialga and Ferrothorn can leave a pretty big dent on Groudon if it tries to switch in.

    Ho-oh - Much like Reshiram, Ho-oh is almost impossible to counter if sun is up, but thankfully, it isn't that hard to keep rain up against Ho-oh. For the most part, Arceus-Electric walls it as well as any Pokemon could ever hope to in Rain. Gliscor can also outspeed and Toxic it before it Substitutes. Can lead to some nasty predictions for the opponent about whether to risk their Groudon taking an Arceus Ice Beam while I set up with Calm Mind in the meantime.

    Kyogre - Specs Kyogre is really gaining popularity these days, but even so, Ferrothorn still works fairly well against most of them. The most dangerous ones are the mono-attackers, which generally means Dialga eating a Scald burn in order to phaze it away. Arceus-Electric works pretty well, but doesn't like switching in on it.

    Kyurem-B/W - The Kyurem formes are such a pain, as it's impossible to switch in on either of them. The trick to beating one is to get in Stealth Rock as early as possible, even if it means sacrificing something to do it. Once Stealth Rock is down, Kyurem can only switch in one or two more times, or only after I kill something.

    Lati@s - Firstly, the most threatening versions of Latias are the Roar and Substitute variants. The defensive Refreshers are a non-issue, due to their vulnerability to Gyro Ball, Leech Seed and Dragon Tail. For the most part, the Substitute version is the most common, meaning Dialga's Dragon Tail is usually the best option. For any Latias that doesn't have Substitute however, Ferrothorn pretty much handles Latias as well as anything could hope to. Kyogre can also Toxic Latias on the switch, but it's not guaranteed.

    Latios can be a bit more painful, but generally, Ferrothorn and Dialga are enough to keep it at bay. Latios is one of the primary reasons why I stopped using Forretress in Ferrothorn's spot. (Forretress usually has no hope of taking Latios's coverage moves)

    Lugia - Lugia is kind of a joke if it's played by itself, as its offenseless and incredibly vulnerable to getting hit by Toxic most of the time. 4 of my team members are immune to it's own Toxic, and most of them aren't threatened by Ice Beam either. Thus, beating Lugia is more of a matter of dealing with the opponent's entry hazard setters than dealing with Lugia itself. Arceus Electric and Stealth Rock can also handle it if it comes down to that.

    Manaphy - Arceus-Electric. I know how to counter my own Pokemon. Most of them also have a lot of trouble dealing with Ferrothorn and Dialga's phazing.

    Mewtwo - There's no real way to handle Mewtwo, but tanking a hit with Arceus or Kyogre and then killing it is generally the best option. It's about as threatening as Arceus-Normal, really. Dialga works too if Mewtwo uses its movepool to get past either.

    Palkia - People just love to bluff a Scarf on this thing, but hardly anyone is actually blase enough give it a real Scarf. Arceus-Electric is a great tool against it once I've scouted its moveset, and Dialga can generally work as a one-time stop as well. The most dangerous ones are probably the Lustrous Orb versions with Hydro Pump. Due to its ability to hit nastily hard with water moves and Spacial Rend's critical hit potential, it's generally an awful idea to try to set up on it.

    Rayquaza - Three of my Pokemon have Ice Beam, which is pretty much as good as it's going to get. Even then, it's a huge threat, but it's not as likely to sweep my team as say, Normal-Arceus.

    Reshiram - This thing is beaten by controlling the weather and prediction... which can make it pretty scary, actually. Specs versions call for basically the same strategy as beating the Kyurem formes.

    Shaymin-S - It has the potential to beat all of them with a little luck, but Ferrothorn, Arceus and even Dialga can generally keep it from beating the rest of my team.

    Skarmory - For the most part, Gliscor can prevent it from doing anything useful, and if it uses Brave Bird, it loses its Sturdy status, making it even more vulnerable against everything on my team than it already is. Even Dialga can Dragon Tail is away before it can Whirlwind.

    Smeargle - This can be a really cheesy Pokemon to face. For the most part, I just have to get Dialga in somehow and pray the opponent doesn't have Ingrain. Spore is annoying to predict, and beating Smeargle tends to require double switches and game-changing predictions. Dialga can also sometimes survive a hit from the receiver and phaze him out. I have all the tools needed to defeat this strategy, but even that doesn't guarantee that I can beat it.

    Tentacruel - Tentacruel usually doesn't last that long, because everything on my team other than Ferrothorn can either maim, set up on it, or do both in one. It might spin once and set up some Toxic Spikes, but that's about it. I generally try to get Arceus poisoned with level 1 Poison over Kyogre, because Kyogre rarely stays in for more than one or two turns at most.

    Terrakion - This things honestly isn't that good in Ubers. The Choice Bander might possibly predict a Stone Edge on my Gliscor, but then you have to deal with Ferrothorn or Dialga. And if it isn't banded, then Gliscor can take the stone edge without much difficulty. Arceus can also outspeed and maims any Terrakion that doesn't have a Scarf. For the most part, using one is mostly about how well you can bluff.

    Thundurus (either forme) - Stealth Rock helps, obviously. Arceus is almost immune to anything it can do and Dialga can phaze it out for even more Stealth Rock damage.

    Tyrannitar - Generally, I'll try to lead with Gliscor against this thing, because Tyrannitar usually has some kind of surprise trick up its sleeve to deal with Kyogre. Gliscor can also Taunt its Stealth Rock, and people will only add Ice Beam if they've battled me before and are trying to surprise me during the second battle or something. Most of them carry Lum Berry, so going for direct damage is preferrable, but I won't hesitate to poison it, even if it takes two turns to do so. A well-played Tyrannitar can be annoying, but for the most part, it's still vulnerable to half of the Pokemon on my team in one way or another. In the end, Gliscor is a huge boon against any team trying to win with sand.

    Zekrom - Gliscor and Ferrothorn are usually enough to keep it at bay, even if it's mixed. Dialga and Arceus-Electric can also cause problems for it because they resist Bolt Strike.
  2. Double Electric

    Double Electric

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2009
    Messages:
    162
    Nothing? I know this team could probably use a couple of improvements, but I've been somewhat at a loss lately at what are the best aspects to change... Any suggestions?

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