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Other Defensive Fire-typing

Discussion in 'OverUsed' started by mrglass, Oct 23, 2013.

?

Has Fire become a viable Defensive typing?

  1. Yes

    41.4%
  2. No

    58.6%
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  1. mrglass

    mrglass

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    I don't think a lot of people realize this, but Fire has had the 2nd most resistances of any type since Gen 2 (2nd to Steel). Now that was somewhat offset by one of those being Steel, and the type being weak to SR and Drizzle buffed Rain, but several things have changed this gen.

    1. It picked up a handy new resistance to Fairy type
    2. Steel got an offensive buff
    3. Weather got nerfed, so Specs + Rain Keldeo isn't as much of a threat
    4. Defog got buffed such that Hazards are much easier to remove.

    With all of these being the case, can you see defensive fire types like Torkoal, Ninetales, and Magcargo being more useful this gen for their defensive capabilities? Not necessarily in OU, but better overall?

    Also, do you see Fire as a viable defensive typing in general?

    I'd rather not talk about Heatran in this topic, because a lot of Heatran's defensive potential comes from it's Steel typing, not it's Fire typing. We also have discussed Heatran's improvement quite a bit on this board.

    Just to clarify: This topic is to discuss both the defensive viability of current Fire type pokemon, and the defensive viability of the typing itself independent of the current set of Fire types(e.g. so if we had a pokemon that was a defensive fire type, with defensive stats and a decent defensive movepool, would it be useful?)
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2013
  2. GrislyBear

    GrislyBear

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    This depends on what the common attacks are. If edge quake continues to be a major thing then it isn't very likely.
    TwoBit likes this.
  3. Aldrius

    Aldrius

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    Fire is kind of like grass in that it is a very vulnerable type with a lot of weaknesses, but it has some really key resistances that nobody else really has (like steel). That's pretty much how I see fire.
    PttP likes this.
  4. UltiMario

    UltiMario

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    I will give you a list of every single Fire type that can reach over UU thanks to their defensive merit:

    Heatran
    Arceus-Fire

    If this is not a good enough of an indicator for you on the quality of fire as a defensive typing, the answer is no.
    blurple77, bonk, gvmgvm40 and 5 others like this.
  5. mrglass

    mrglass

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    Well, just because there aren't many good defensive fire types doesn't mean the typing isn't good. Torkoal and Ninetales lack reliable recovery, and have 2 lackluster defensive stats. Magcargo has that same problem in addition to absolutely horrendous dual typing.

    Also, thinking to my question of those 3 as defensive pokemon, I realize that each got an equally big debuff this gen. Ninetales got the weather nerf, the Defog's buff hurts Torkoal's role as a rapid spinner, and the steel buff didn't help Magcargo do to it's secondary typing.
    MikeDawg likes this.
  6. Aerodactyl Legend

    Aerodactyl Legend

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    Well, Heatran is still valid in the discussion. Frankly, Fire has been terrible defensively generation after generation, so it's no surprise Fire type with Steel will stand out among the rest. And even with Defog, Stealth Rock is a major pain to deal with. You'd have to continue using one of the two hazard removal moves to keep the field clear. Another big problem is the type weaknesses themselves. The resistances do not outweigh the weakness to Ground, Rock, and Water moves (get hit by Earthquake or take SR damage...)
  7. EtherDrive

    EtherDrive

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    Fire was one of the worst defensive typings in the game next to Ice

    fairy resistance is nice and all, but it's still not going to be any good without a dual typing that's steel extremely good or an ability that's amazing
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2013
  8. Siggu

    Siggu

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    Fire actually has the second highest number of resistances of all types, with six. Third comes Poison with five resistances

    But when your weaknesses are easy to exploit, that happens
  9. MegaSnorlax

    MegaSnorlax

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    Defensive EVs Arcanine with intimidate is a badass mono-fire defensive pokemon.
  10. mrglass

    mrglass

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    Alright, I'll admit Fire hasn't been a good defensive typing in the past, I even said it to an extent in the OP (which it seems like you didn't read). But it's no where near as bad as Ice is. Fire has incredibly useful resistances to Ice Shard, Bullet Punch and U-turn. Even if one of your resistances is the Steel, 5 resistances (last gen) is a lot. And sure it has some bad weaknesses, but so does Steel. In fact, a lot of types have easily exploitable weaknesses. Normal and Dark have fighting. Water and flying have electric, and Dragon has Ice and Fairy.

    Honestly, nothing comes even close to Ice in how horrible it is defensively.

    I'd say Rock and Grass are next in line, then Bug and Fire from last gen as a meh typing. And with all the buffs I mentioned, can go from meh to decent. I'm not saying Fire's the next Steel, Water, or Fairy. But I am saying it's probably in the class of Normal and Dragon as usable defensive typings.
  11. Typhlito

    Typhlito One Duck Hunting Dawg
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    Even though they have some nice resistances, most fire types are pretty much built the same. A lot of them are made to attack instead of taking hits. Sure there are a few that can actually take the defensive route like heatran and torkoal and even a few that can do both like arcanine but not nearly enough to call the type defensive.
  12. JayHankEdLyon

    JayHankEdLyon

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    Resistance. Not immunity.
  13. EtherDrive

    EtherDrive

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    Stealth rock is its biggest crutch.

    Dual typings that ease this open up weaknesses toward common attacking types

    it's not necessarily fire on it's own, hell, a Pure Fire type with Magic Guard would probably be amazing with the right moves and stats but, thanks to Generation 4, Fire, bug, and flying got shafted.

    Thanks for that, wasn't paying attention when I made that
  14. Pata Hikari

    Pata Hikari

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    I have to say this is the case. The problem with Fire as a defensive type isn't so much the type itself, it's that most Pokemon of the type aren't really meant to be defensive, or they're saddled with a horrible secondary type.

    Fire types resistances will help this gen, I think, but mostly to allow for switch ins before going on the offensive.
  15. Screw-On Head

    Screw-On Head

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    Fire is actually a really nice defensive typing on the Special side, it just falls apart completely on the physical side. That and most Fire types have a strong offensive bias in thier stats and movepools.

    But I agree Fire is a much improved defensive typing this gen. The Will-o-Wisp buff certainly helps. Resisting 2 of Dragon's weaknesses is also handy.

    I'd keep an eye out for Rotom-H. It is poised to a very useful little possed toaster this gen.
  16. Princess Bubblegum

    Princess Bubblegum

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    I disagree with the sentiment so far in this thread that fire is a bad typing. The only reason we see fire in this light is for 2 reasons: 1 they are weak to stealth rock 2 most of the fire types are frail.

    Fire has a lot of nice resistances, most notably a resistance to Bug, IMO if we had more and better defensive fire types we would see a nosedive in the omnipresent Scizor. Its a downright shame that we pretty much only have Heatran who mind you pretty much only has bulk because its a Legendary, its main stat is Special Attack, none of its defensive stats barely break base 100, yet it is at the center of many defensive cores for 2 generations now.
    RandyBerri likes this.
  17. Karpi

    Karpi

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    Let's see... we take the defensive stats of Torkoal... and look at pokemon that have the same defensive tier: (http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/defense-and-special-defense-tiers.24931/)

    -Skarmory is OU
    -Forretress is OU
    -Donphan is OU
    -Tyranitar is OU
    -Suicune is UU
    -Slowbro is UU
    -Umbreon is UU (somehow)
    -Metagross is UU
    -Uxie is RU but not useless in UU
    -Regigigas would be OU/Uber minus the ability
    -Deoxys-D is an Uber
    -Shuckle has many problems
    -Probopass has a horrid typing
    -Golem has a horrid typing

    Looks like IN GENERAL, pokemon with that great of defensive stats do very well if they aren't hindered by typing. Therefore, there is a problem with mono-fire typing that makes it a bad choice defensively (probably the three painful weaknesses)

    Would you rather use Torkoal or Donphan as a spinner+entry hazard setter with similar defensive stats? There's a reason that Donphan is used 100% of the time over Torkoal for Torkoal's most useful role.
  18. mrglass

    mrglass

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    But you also have to consider it from a matter of recovery and other stats. Donphan has solid attacking stats and a priority move. Skarmory and Forretress have an amazing defensive typing, and the former has reliable recovery. Tyranitar has a weather summoning move. Suicune has access to an awesome boosting move that allows it to function as a good tank. You see my point?

    But that said, I definitely see where you are coming from. And I say no where that Fire is an ideal defensive type. Water, Fairy, and Steel will always be better than it unless something drastic happens.
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2013
  19. Thorhammer

    Thorhammer

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    Saying Fire is anywhere near as bad as Ice as a defensive type is just ridiculous.

    Pros of Ice over Fire:

    -Neutrality to Water
    -Neutrality to Ground

    Pros of Fire over Ice:

    -Neutrality to Fighting
    -Resistance to Fire (instead of a weakness)
    -Resistance to Steel (instead of a weakness)
    -Resistance to Fairy
    -Resistance to Grass
    -Resistance to Bug

    Ground is an important offensive type, and Water even more so, but when Ice shares Fire's most important weakness and Fire shares Ice's only resistance, it's pretty ridiculous to compare the two. Fire has issues, but it's nowhere near as bad as Ice.
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  20. Gerard

    Gerard

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    Rotom-H should be very interesting this gen, capable of absorbing Paralysis and Burn along with STAB Electric to hit on water types and immunity to EQ, this is gonna be great for him, he's got good defenses and resists 8 types while being immune to Ground, it's definetly bulky enough to absorb many resisted attacks and even some neutral ones, I just wish they gave him and many more mons reliable recovery to make better use of their defensive typings
    Hydro Pimp likes this.
  21. Age of Kings

    Age of Kings of the Ash Legion
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    You forgot Ho-Oh. Unless 106/90/154 defenses with Roost recovery and Regenerator isn't considered a defensive merit.
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2013
  22. EtherDrive

    EtherDrive

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    So what's a worse defensive typing than Fire in OU
  23. Karpi

    Karpi

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    I'll stick with comparing Donphan since it has basically the same role as Torkoal (unlike Tyranitar etc)

    Donphan's Earthquake and Ice Shard aren't the REASONS you use Donphan. You use him for Stealth Rock and Rapid Spin, otherwise you would use fucking Mamoswine. Those are just nice added bonuses. You don't seriously consider Torkoal for your OU team only to replace him with Donphan at the last minute because "OMG look! It gets Ice Shard!". No. It's not even a close comparison before that.
  24. mrglass

    mrglass

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    Rock. Arguably Grass and Bug.
  25. S0L1D G0LD

    S0L1D G0LD

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    Grass? Oh Hell no. Grass is very good. Key resists to water and ground, plus they can now absorb powder moves. What grass type are you talking about?
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