Deoxys-D Fast Spiker [QC (3/3)] [GP 2/2]

[Myzozoa]

I was using Deoxys-D on the ladder and I noticed that not many people expected the set I was using. But as you'll see in the moves, all my moves are in the mainstream of what you expect on a suicide spiker. Basically this is sort of a push, I'm pushing Deoxys-D into the role Deoxys-S used to fill. Go gently, this is the first thread I've ever created in C&C and I know nothing about the process.

Here is the framework:

[SET]
name: Fast Spiker
move 1: Spikes
move 2: Taunt
move 3: Stealth Rock / Recover
move 4: Night Shade / Magic Coat
item: Leftovers / Rocky Helmet
ability: Pressure
nature: Timid
evs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>Deoxys-D has stepped up to fill the niche of a fast user of Spikes, and is arguably the best in this role. The combination of Spikes and Taunt, in conjunction with Deoxys-D’s excellent bulk, makes it one of the most efficient and reliable support Pokemon in the game. Taunt ensures that opposing sweepers, such as Dragonite and Haxorus will not be able to set up on Deoxys-D, and their Choice Band Outrages will fail to OHKO.</p>

<p>The last two moves and the item choice are dependent on what you want Deoxys-D to beat. Stealth Rock will maximize your teams efficiency as it will not have to be added on to another Pokemon’s moveset. Whereas Magic Coat will ensure that users of Taunt, such as Azelf and opposing Deoxys-D, have to be wary of attempting to shut down your support moves. It should be noted that without Magic Coat, Prankster Taunts from Sableye and Whimsicott will null Deoxys-D's efforts, making them reliable counters. Recover in conjunction with Taunt, and a Rocky Helmet can wear down Rapid Spinners. Night Shade deals consistent damage and ensures that Deoxys-D isn’t a sitting duck against things like Substitute Landorus and Terrakion.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>Although Deoxys-D can employ a variety of schemes in order to get through Rapid Spin users, none of them are as efficient as having a spinblocker. Gengar is the best choice for offensive teams, but it's frailty causes it to have a lot of trouble against Starmie and Tentacruel, which can put all of Deoxys-D’s efforts to waste. In addition to that problem, a fast Trick user can completely wreck Deoxys-D’s plans, and turn it into set-up bait. For this reason, Scarf Rotom-W is an excellent teammate, as it is a consistent counter to both Starmie and Tentacruel that can also come in on an opponent using Trick with ease. They can also revenge kill anything that does happen to set-up.</p>

<p>The Pokemon that have the greatest ability to take advantage of the entry hazards that Deoxys-D lays down, are strong priority move users like Scizor and Lucario. The extra layers will allow them to tear through offensive teams and limit the amount of times walls can be switched into them. These strong priority moves are also useful for revenge killing, set-up sweepers that outrun Deoxys-D’s Taunt, such as Gengar, Volcarona, and Terrakion. Deoxys-D is also very helpful for teams that lean towards a Volt-Turning strategy as the entry hazards will quickly decimate walls.</p>

<p>Lastly, there are several EV spread variants that can be used without reducing Deoxys-D's efficiency. Running 208 Speed EVs is the bare minimum to ensure, that you outrun Adamant Haxorus, but 228 is enough to outpace neutral base 100’s like Jirachi. Finally, 216 Speed EVs will be enough to ensure that you move before Modest Hydreigon.</p>


Bare in mind that this is my first time doing this, so if I messed anywhere tell me and I'll do my best to fix it. The alt I used to test this set is: Kala

 

[Harsha]

Magic Coat--though it is useful--is not a reliable way to keep hazards off the field. I suggest replacing it with Night Shade or a move of that sort and just running a conventional spinner to go along with it. Also, Leftovers should definitely be slashed first. Mention that a good spin-blocker to support Deoxys-D would be Jellicent, as it has good recovery and can take Special hits well.

 

[Caz the DogWatcher]

Here's a similar set that I've run for a while:
Deoxys-D @ Tanga Berry / Leftovers
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 140 Def / 116 Spe
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Stealth Rock
- Spikes
- Thunder Wave
- Taunt

I think that having both Taunt and Magic Coat on the same set is superfluous, though I can see the reason for it. I had a Magic Bounce Espeon on the same team I used that Deoxys-D set with, so maybe that's why I never felt a great need for Magic Coat. Thunder Wave is a better option in my view as it lets you cripple things try to set up on Deo-D. At the very least it deserves a slash behind Magic Coat. Also, I really don't see the need to run max speed, especially if you are going to use Magic Coat, which has +4 priority.

 

[Pocket]

Magic Coat is not primarily used to bounce back layers; Taunt accomplishes this. It is to prevent Prankster / faster Taunters from nullifying this Deoxys-D's role of setting up Spikes. Pokemon like Azelf, Aerodactyl, and Sableye comes to mind.

It doesn't necessarily need to run max Speed, but it should run enough Speed to prevent set-up Sweepers like Adamant Haxorus from taking advantage of Deoxys-D's 0 offense. Taunt's ability to prevent any set up is what makes Deoxys-S and Deoxys-D so good. The only mons that can safely set up on Deoxys-D is Jolly DDmence / SD Gliscor / Haxorus and Timid Volcarona / Celebi / Jirachi, so those should also be noted in counters. Oh yea, Terrakion, Infernape, Virizion, and the Lati twins as well.

I would also mention Rotom-W as a useful teammate, which not only takes advantages of the hazards laid by Deoxys-D, but also provides a useful pivot to Starmie that tries to Rapid Spin Deoxys-D. Thanks to its ability Pressure, relative low Speed, and useful bulk, Deoxys-D can potentially PP-stall Rapid Spin / would always be able to set-up hazards when it's against Starmie (hazards can be spun after it dies, though, but that's when you apply the offensive pressure).

 

[Myzozoa]

Magic Coat is absolutely necessary to stop faster taunts, and you still need your own taunt to beat set-up sweepers like Dragonite who view Deoxys-D as set-up fodder. The combination of Taunt and Magic Coat should be good enough such that your opponent will never be able to set-up entry hazards.

In my opinion there is no move that's really more useful than magic coat. Attacking moves other than (and in truth including) seismic toss are good situationally. T-wave is okay against somethings, but it isn't important against faster taunters/hazard users, they'll still beat you. Magic Coat isn't reliable, but it's more reliable than anything else.


Also I'll add something about Espeon countering this set.

EDIT: Pocket said everything I was saying above and you should read his post, too.

EDIT 2: Ill add something in the couters section about Espeon and faster set-up sweepers.

 

[Harsha]

Ok, that makes sense. With that explanation, I can't really disagree. Magic Coat does seem vital.

 

[AccidentalGreed]

Please add the (Quality Control) tag by accessing it through Advanced editing.

Also, are you trying to add a set, or update the whole analysis? If you're doing to former, the overview isn't necessary. If it is the latter, you must update the whole analysis like Yee and I are doing (yee's doing Dragonite, I'm doing Salamence).

For anybody who's wondering, this is essentially the same "Fast Spiker" that's on-site in the UU Analysis, so ideally, we're not going to succumb into theorymon wars. Thanks!

 

[Myzozoa]

I think I'll just be adding this set.

 

[MaestroXXVI]

I think a good speed to hit would be neutral 188 to outspeed jolly loom and taunt before the spore

Relevant speeds between jolly loom and deo-d's max (+nat and neutral bolded):

306 / Lucario, Roserade* / 90 / +Spe / 252
299 / Salamence, Jirachi, Volcarona* / 100 / Neutral / 252
298 / Rotom-A / 86 / +Spe / 252
295 / Hydreigon / 98 / Neutral / 252
293 / Haxorus / 97 / Neutral / 252
289 / Darmanitan, Gliscor / 95 / Neutral / 252
279 / Lucario / 90 / Neutral / 252
278 / Heatran / 77 / +Spe / 252
273 / Smeargle / 75 / +Spe / 252
269 / Toxicroak / 85 / Neutral / 252
262 / Politoed, Breloom / 70 / +Spe / 252
261 / Gyarados / 81 / Neutral / 252
259 / Venusaur*, Mamoswine, Dragonite / 80 / Neutral / 252

Another potential speed spread could be neutral 232 to taunt smeargle before it spores...though i do have to admit running max does help against the odd taunt haxorus

 

[Adamant Zoroark]

Not like Jolly Breloom exists anyway. Nearly all of them are Adamant (SubPunch/SubSeed) or Careful (Bulk Up).

A better benchmark would be to outspeed Adamant Haxorus (needs 208 EVs Jolly to outspeed Adamant Haxorus (293)), or Adamant Lucario (156 EVs Jolly) to Taunt them before they attempt to take advantage of Deoxys-D's 0 offensive presence by setting up with Swords Dance, or Dragon Dance in Haxorus's case.

 

[BurningMan]

i would actually always go with 252 Spe EVs to get the speed tie with other Deo-Ds since this pokemon is becoming more and more common and due to its already excellent defenses additional defense EVs are simply not needed since it already survives almost everything especially when using a resist berry and thus will always accomplish its job to set-up sr and a layer of spikes without these random defense EVs.

That said i think Seismic Toss/Night Shade deserve a slash somewhere or at least a AC mention since going without any form of offense is always risky

 

[Myzozoa]

The way I see it there are two possibilities:

The first thing would be to set the evs such that CB Scizor U-turn+ Sandstorm Damage is never a KO.

The other way is to max speed to tie with other Deoxys-D, just like Deoxys-S was max speed to tie with other Deoxys-S.

 

[Snunch]

Do faster taunts exist in OU? The only one I can think of is Tornadus but you're not staying in to Magic Coat. Just use Night Shade so you can actually do something when Forretress / Tentacruel switch in. Deoxys-D can actually outdamage a lot of common pokemon just by Night Shading them, it's definitely better than Magic Coat.

 

[Myzozoa]

Well Tornadus and some Gliscor. There are also a bunch of things in UU, like Azelf that sometimes see play in OU.

I'm going to slash Seismic Toss (or Night Shade?), I'm not convinced it's more useful in many situations, but since Taunt and Hazards are the most important thing anyway...

 

[pie cream]

um, where's recover?

 

[Harsha]

He doesn't really care for Recover because he only needs to set up hazards.

 

[Pocket]

I'd just slash Night Shade to minimize slash-itis. Night Shade hits Ghost-types, who are arguably more prominent than Normal mons, and it could prevent mons like Gengar from setting up free Subs. Seismic Toss has more PP, but that's not an issue for a suicide spiker. Night Shade also avoids damage from Iron Barbs, which is a nice plus.

Personally, I'd slash Night Shade with Stealth Rock, since I personally find Magic Coat more useful, especially if your Deoxys-D pits with another Deoxys-D. Stealth Rock can easily be tacked onto a different mon instead if you want that attack option on Deoxys-D.

 

[Giga Punch]

I tested out this set for and while the items you listed for it are good I had honestly just assumed the most ideal item for this particular set was rocky helmet. When you compare what rocky helmet is doing in comparison to either of those berries you are gaining more. With some defense evs CB Scizor nor CB Tyranitar actually OHKO anyway. The fact that forretress (and to a slightly lesser extent) Tentacruel are not doing much to you in return while they hurt themselves using rapid spin is gaining way more in the long run if you simply do not want to use leftovers along with just about anything else you can taunt or will just attack you and receive damage.
While I do not think the set actually needs max speed +nature a speed stat of 280 or 286 should be the minimum one aims for. 280 speed outspeeds offensive max speed Heatran to taunt it before it tries to use SR and 286 outspeeds the occasional jolly Mamoswine. The most common OU pokemon a max speed +nature would allow you to taunt is basically adamant Haxorus or adamant AcroBat Gliscor.

General reasons I think rocky helmet should be slashed over the other items is it is basically dealing "free damage" to anything attacking you with a contact move which is huge. Things such as CB Scizor or Chople Tyranitar that the berries would be helping receive less damage from, you would be doing more to your opponent but essentially dealing for one or two turns 1/8 damage than simply using a berry to leave longer. Many other things are really not enjoying what rocky helmet damage is doing to them, in particular life orb rapid spin Starmie who aside from having to rely on two hydro pumps to get rid of you has to deal with the damage you are dishing out by simply using SR or Spikes over and over while it either spins or dies to attack.

On a last random note, it should be worth noting when you see a Rotom-W in team preview. Most people now just lead with their Rotom-W if it has trick and trick you right off the bat while you are left with just SR down and a volt switch to whatever they send in next.

 

[Myzozoa]

I'm willing to slash Rocky Helmet instead of leftovers, but Colbur is important because it allows you to taunt Lead Chople Tyranitar and still get 2 layers. Tanga can be important against teams that run CB scizor and another strong U-turn user. The damage aspect of Rocky Helmet is nice, but the point of the set is to maximize support, if you want to deal direct damage Deoxys-D is not optimal anyway.

Against Lead Rotom-w it's probably a good idea to have a pokemon to absorb trick, but the other possibility is just absorbing the trick and spiking twice.

 

[shrang]

I love this set. It's basically been the Spiker that I've been using after Deoxys-S got banned and it pretty much does the same thing as its faster brother. I've just been using this as a suicide lead, to be honest. Although, there is already a Spikes set up on site already. You're going to have to focus on what this set does that the set on site doesn't do already.

Anyway, for spin-blockers, I've been using the mighty Rotom, which handily rapes Starmie as long as you don't switch into Hydro Pump or something like that. Jellicent is another good spin-blocker, which can always run Specs if you just want to be offensive =).

 

[|DarkSector|]

yeah, this is a cool set, but mint berry + twave should at least be listed on oo.

 

[fade5]

@DarkSector: Mint berry? I see someone's still living in the GSC era :) But in seriousness, Chesto Berry is kinda useless since this Deoxys-D is a suicide spiker, and if the opponent sleeps him it means they can't put something more threatening to sleep. (Also, Deoxys has 3-4 item slashes already) Thunder Wave works, but would probably be better on a Bulky set like Caz posted earlier.

Just my two cents.

 

[YTP]

I've been using this set and its pretty good. It does what it's supposed to. Takes hits and almost guarantees two layers of spikes. Rocky helmet is ok. Most of the time I wish he had've lasted longer though.

 

[Myzozoa]

I've edited the set to resolve these issues:

1. The items- Colbur is in my opinion the best and most consistent item. I've slashed in Rocky Helmet and removed leftovers. Tanga berry is very good, but it's also very situational so it's been pushed back.

2. The moves- Night Shade is slashed after both Stealth Rock and Magic Coat, as it breaks Gengar's Substitutes and provides consistent damage

3. Mentioned Trick users in the Counters section.

If these changes are satisfactory, the only issue left is the EV spread.

 

[Pocket]

Unless Jolly Lucario gains popularity, I'll stick with either 294 / 297 to outrun Haxorus / Hydreigon or 300 to outrun Adamant DDMence, Modest Volcarona, NP Celebi, CM Jirachi, etc.

Deoxys-D without Magic Coat would want Max Speed to out-Taunt opposing Deoxys-D, but it'll probably lose to variants with Magic Coat. MC is unconditional, imo; Night Shade should only be considered over Steath Rock.