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Deoxys-S Tiering Discussion

Discussion in 'BW OU' started by JabbaTheGriffin, Nov 20, 2011.

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  1. JabbaTheGriffin

    JabbaTheGriffin Stormblessed
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    As mentioned here, this is where discussion on the tiering status of Deoxys-S will take place. I implore each and every one of you to add to the discussion with well thought out reasoning describing why you feel that Deoxys-S should be Uber or OU. This topic will be left open for approximately 2 weeks, or until whatever point we feel the discussion has reached its conclusion.
  2. Aldaron

    Aldaron indefatigable workhorse
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    I'm personally right on the fence regarding Deoxys-S and will be monitoring this thread closely.

    Convince me to go either way with convincing arguments based on experiences in this metagame.
  3. Texas Cloverleaf

    Texas Cloverleaf meh
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    Personally I have no opinion on its power as I feel it is an excelletn suppot pokemon or cleaner, but still one that dies very easily. The only issue I have with it is that it creates a really, really, monotonous metagame.
  4. Doughboy

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    Right on the spot. Deoxys-S doesn't have anything that is inherently broken about it. But, it definantly leads the metagame to go all Hyper-Offense since it can Taunt anything bar Magic Bouncers and Prankster Taunters. The rarity of those two things leads it to get guarenteed screens or setting down of hazards for its team.

    Magic Bounce Eseon isn't in the same boat as Deoxys-S because Espeon can be forced at much more easily since it lesser defenses and smaller movepool/offense compared to Deoxys-S.
  5. bluemon

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    i personally think deoxys is overrated. (and predictable)
    i am going to explore three popular sets of deoxys in regards to how i deal with them with my sun team.

    1. hazard setter.
    perhaps the most popular and effective, it's the better aerodactyl. they almost always carry either magic coat or taunt, stealth rock or spikes or in most cases both, and an attacking move of choice (superpower,ice beam.psycho boost) their ev spread vary too, as well as items: from bulky to offensive to focus sash to leftovers. this deoxys is useful on hyper offensive teams, but is very predictable and is a waste of a team slot if the opponent has a rapid spinner. for example, i lead with my donphan on deoxys leads.. i earthquake on the taunt, getting it to little more than half health. then it uses stealth rock. i use eq again and leaves it at little health. it sets up spikes. i rapid spin for the OHKO and the spin. cool. now this is just against a bad player, but when well played, deoxys-s is just a free kill.

    2. dual screener deoxys-s
    this is the second most popular set and is a pain in the ass to take down. this set almost gurantees screens, and must be handled accordingly. this doesnt matter if you have a good phazer (like every team). just predict a sweeper switch in, let them set up and phaze. just stall until screns run out. again you have gotten a fre kil. with good prediction you win. what i do is i lead with donphan, whittle it with eq (5hko with reflect) and then set stealth rock, live the set up sweepers attack with sturdy while i roar.

    3. life orb attacker
    while its the least popular, many people have trouble with its element of surprise. it usually runs a mixed set with ice beam, psycho boost, superpower, and a coverage move. the problem with this set is that IT IS SOOO PATHETICALLY WEAK, it failed to kil my chlorophyl sweepers with life orb ice beam. pretty weak if you ask me.

    so overall deoxys s is just another threat that is handleable. no need to ban something that aint broke. gg.
  6. Ningildo

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    With the fact it gives support with ease and has amazing speed, Deoxys-S is without a doubt one of the, if not the best "Lead" in OU at the moment.
    But so good to the point of being broken?
    No.
    Dual Screens can usually only set up once and so does Standard, but surviving isn't a priority with this set.
    And while LO is a great late game cleaner, a swift KO by priority is quite possible.
    So in short, it's a great top tier pokemon, but far from being broken
  7. bluemon

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    im wondering, moderators, why did you guys pick deoxys-s as the suspect?

    im just curious
  8. Delta 2777

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    I personally can't stand Deoxys-S and have always felt that it was the most broken suspect last round. The main reason for this is Deoxys-S's extreme versatility that make it so that if if you guess wrong (you can't really predict, just guess) as to what set it is running, you get totally fucked.

    Support variants: these can carry Spikes, Stealth Rock, Taunt, Duel Screens, and/or one or two offensive moves to screw over potential counters. It also has Magic Coat to screw over priority Taunt (not that priority Taunt is common), meaning 2 layers of hazards minimum is all but guaranteed.

    Offensive variants: this is where the real trouble comes in. Deoxys-S has just high enough offensive stats to make use of them, and with so many options (Superpower, Psycho Boost, Hidden Power Fire, Ice Beam, Thunderbolt, and even Energy Ball) that you literally have no 100% counters except Steel/Psychics such as Jirachi and Bronzong.

    And that's the thing: you don't know if Deoxys is going to run a support or offensive set. If you think it's running support, you might switch in Tyranitar to Crunch it, Scizor to U-Turn it, or maybe Conkeldurr to Payback it... Nope, all three just got OHKOed by the respective super effective move. And say you want to scout the Hidden Power Fire. Brilliant! Switch Scizor out to X and, oh... Deoxys-S used Stealth Rock. And I bet it'll use Spikes (or super effective move) next, and that'll really make this match harder for me. No matter what, unless you were given information about your opponent's team beforehand or use a specialized counter like ChopleTar (whose utility has decreased with the banning of Thunderus) or a Steel/Psychic as previously mentioned you will NEVER be able to shut down Deoxys-S consistently without being extremely lucky.

    And for those of you who cry "any Pokemon can beat its counters with a specialized moveset, so why does that make Deoxys-S broken??", consider that offensive Deoxys-S is actually common, and very viable, unlike stuff like Hidden Power Fire Kingdra which you'll see once every million battles.
  9. bubbly

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    Broken, maybe not. If that means it is OU then fine, but to be honest I don't like what it does to the metagame. The sweeping / revenge killing sets are fine but when you have something which will just predictably come out first and almost always get SR + Spikes, or both Screens, it makes playing with defensive teams very very difficult. In particular the Deoxys-S / Scizor / Rotom-W trio which has become stupidly popular recently absolutely breaks stall teams, because Deoxys-S simply allows for too much of an abuseable advantage early in the game. Like Delta said, you literally can have no way of knowing what set it's running until you either risk it KOing your "counter" or it gets to set up at leisure.

    Because of this, my vote would probably be for Uber, just because it really badly hurts the viability of defensive playstyles. This discussion is interesting though, I'd like to see where it goes to.
  10. MetaGross66

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    I personally haven't had any issues with it, although my opinions may be somewhat biased considering I used anti-lead mixnite making sure it doesn't get any hazards down (most taunt first turn to prevent a likely DD). Still, I believe it isn't broken considering the hazards it sets are pretty easy to spin away with something like Starmie. Espeon can switch into it pretty easily, too. If anything, it's the fact one can't set up on it that makes people think it's so broken. However, I believe one should be going all out offensive when facing a Deoxys-S simply because attempting to set up on it is futile and will ultimately result in frustration. If you attack it with something like Latios, the sweepers coming in aren't going to have an easy time setting up. Whereas, if you try to set up with a Dragon Dance Dragonite and get taunted, you're left with a pretty weak set up sweeper and a bunch of hazards on your field....
  11. DetroitLolcat

    DetroitLolcat Maize And Blue Badge Set :)
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    Dammit, we want to ban more shit that isn't even remotely broken?

    1. Let's fix this by bringing Excadrill back down, please?4 OU votes, 1 Uber vote should not = Uber, especially when it has counters, checks, revenge killers, weather changers, etc. /rant

    2. As bluemon pointed out, there are three sets that Deoxys-S uses, so I'll mention their synergy/unpredictability/versatility value and then tackle their individual sets.

    Set 1 is Hazard Setter
    Set 2 is Screen Setter
    Set 3 is Life Orb Cleaner

    Deoxys-S is versatile, but not unpredictable. Unlike former Suspects like Gen 4 Salamence, not knowing Deoxys-S's set does not give the opponent the advantage. If the opponent leads with Deoxys, it's probably either Set 1 or Set 2, if not, it might be Set 3. Deoxys-S has such shitty attacking stats that mispredicting the set doesn't mave many negative ramifications. If you leave your Pokemon in expecting a Screen and take a laughably weak Ice Beam, you're not screwed. You simply go to something that beats Deoxys-S and kill it. For that reason, you can assume that Deoxys-S is one of the two support variants, even if it's not.

    Now let's look at the individual sets:

    1. Hazard Setter:

    This set is not nearly broken, as 1: you're only guaranteed one layer of hazards and 2: Spinning is so fucking easy in OU it's not even funny. Many people think Deoxys-S=2 layers of hazards. That is blatantly false. Try running a Tyranitar with Chople Berry. Unless you usually run Choice Tar, Tyranitar doesn't need its leftovers that badly. ChopleTar restricts Deoxys to one layer of hazards. But wait, what if you're not running Sand or think that changing one item on one Pokemon makes Deoxys-S too "overcentralizing"? Well don't worry, you can still hold it to one layer! Just lead with a setup sweeper and force a mindgame! Deoxys-S always runs Taunt because it's such a good move on Deo-S, so why not use that to your advantage? Lead with your Volcarona and force it to Taunt, then rape its face with a Bug Buzz! Lead with your Terrakion and Stone its Edge! Lead with your Scarf Landorus and U-Turn to your priority abuser! Lead with your damn Starmie and just spam Rapid Spin! What the fuck sets up on a Starmie?

    "But Lolcat, what if I don't have any priority Pokemon, Starmies, or U-Turners?"

    Then go to PokeBattleCenter Make some adjustments! Most teams can hold Deo-S to one layer if they try.

    2. The Screen Setter:

    Okay, this set and the hazard setter are so damn similar you can do the same thing. The only difference is that this set is better. It's because of this set that Hyper Offense is everywhere, as it's so easy to get up Screens. However, that doesn't mean that Deoxys-S is broken! First, apply pressure when needed. Lead with your CBNite. Don't have a CBNite? Bullshit, every team has a CBNite and it's why I'm not sitting at 1600 with my SmashPass team. No, but seriously, the best way to beat Hyper Offense is to capture the offensive momentum before the Offense player can do it. Hyper Offense teams hate mindgames, especially when you have the inherent advantage.

    Force Deoxys to Taunt you, therefore holding him to one screen. If he lets you set up, then you have a Pokemon in the middle of setting up and he doesn't. If he Taunts and you attack (which you should do), he's only getting one Screen. If Deoxys has Light Clay, then he could get nothing at all. If you don't KO it or he gets his Screens, you should have a Pokemon halfway set up and Taunt will probably wear off. Setup Pokemon are so damn bulky in Gen 5 that they're not getting OHKO'd.

    3. The Incredibly Overrated Completely Shitty Pretty Bad Cleaner Suicide Orb Deoxys:

    Attack it. It can't OHKO shit, has an uninvested Base 50 HP as its bulk, and hits like a ping pong ball covered in piss. It might actually kill something but that's probably because of a Critical Psycho Boost so you can set up all over its bitch ass.

    Oh and use Trick Room Reuniclus it shits all over Hyper Offense.

    Also, use Starmie because it shits on like every Ghost in OU. Forretress can set up on all the Ghosts but can't Spin, and Donphan is pretty cool too.

    Deoxys-s: About as broken as Excadrill. Also, we should bring back the not-remotely-broken Excadrill.
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
    ????????????

    Yep, Deoxys-S's most broken set is Spikes/SR/Taunt/Reflect/Light Screen/Superpower/HP Fire/Ice Beam/Thunder/Magic Coat @ Focus Sash and Light Clay and Life Orb with 252 Atk, SpA, Spe, and HP EVs.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Okay, people are talking about the metagame becoming "stale", "stagnant", "Boring", etc. I implore you to actually think and answer this question: how will removing Deoxys from the meta fix that??? Look, the more we play the game the more stale it gets. Okay? Eventually, no matter how "balanced" the meta is, we'll eventually find some dominant playstyles and the metagame will centralize around them. That's how games work. You play game, you learn strategy, eventually you find out what works. It doesn't mean something's broken. It means the metagame has developed to a point where Hyper Offense is the best strategy.

    Tiering is pretty easy. You don't have to look at "centralization", "metagame health", "gayness (what an eloquent term)" or any "characteristics of a desirable metagame". You look at one thing: is the pokemon "far too powerful to exist in a balanced metagame". That's what Smogon's Philosophy says. I quote that line in like every tiering post I make because it's simple, not confusing, and pretty easy to determine. Let's look at the first word of that quote:

    "far"

    We're not determining if a Pokemon is broken. We have to prove that something is really, really broken for it to be banned. Do you know why Suspect Testing ultimately failed? Because people came into the test expecting to ban stuff. They also had no idea what constituted brokenness. Making the metagame slow, gay, stale, etc. should have no effect on anything's placement.

    Everyone thinks BW OU is a shitty tier. Do you know why people think it's a shitty tier? Because it is. Is banning one Pokemon going to do anything about that? Probably not.

    If you lean towards Uber because you think Deoxys-S is gay, makes the metagame stale, or makes the metagame boring even though it's not broken, you really are leaning towards OU and don't know it.
  12. NatGeo

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    Oh boy.

    I really want it to stay OU just because of how fun it is to play with it, but I'm starting to think that it may be Uber just because of how many viable sets and variations of them it can run. Hell, you can fiddle with Team Preview just to bluff to your opponent what set you're using. Each of its most popular sets completely screw over at least one playstyle - you use a lead and you can easily get down most if not all layers of spikes + sr on stall, while at the same time lategame you can just rip apart hyper offense with LO. However, I feel that it's support factor is the most threatening just because the LO set, while still amazing, doesn't quite have the power it needs to be truly effective. Overall, i think it's leaning on Uber, but it's walking a fine line.
  13. Pwnemon

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    I personally don't think Deoxys is broken; it's too weak to do anything except set hazards and screens, so it's predictable. Yes, it's great a what it does. There's no doubt about that. But nobody ever won a game with a suicide lead (well maybe but they shouldn't have.) Rapid Spin once and it's like Deoxys never existed. All he is considered broken for is setting up screens. I personally don't think that reliably dual screening is enough to get you banned.
  14. Grimm70

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    100% agree with Delta 2777
  15. pharaohcalvin

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    @ MetaGross66, that is how I handle Deo S myself. (no longer aimed at him) However, just the sheer unpredictability combined with the godly support it gives just makes things so stale. I personally would vote uber myself as I find it effects the metagame far to negatively.
  16. KnightoftheWind

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    Although I've voted Deoxys-S OU in the final suspect vote, I'm inclined to change my mind now regarding him.

    My reasoning for thinking that Deoxys-S might be broken is that provides support like no other Pokemon around. Of course, I am referring to the Stealth Rock / Spikes / Taunt / attack set. It can quite easily get up Stealth Rock and at least one layer of Spikes in any given match, as well as shut down opposing set-up strategies, and it's hard to stop because it's so insanely fast. Team Preview makes things so much better for Deo-S too, allowing it to let something else take the lead if the opponent decides to send out Tyranitar or Scizor first. This means that unless the user of Deoxys is not very smart with it, Deoxys is going to get some hazards up. "But KotW," I hear you say, "you could just run a spinner to take care of those hazards." Well, there's one issue that can be troublesome for spinners, and that's the fact that Deoxys-S can beat most spinners out there. Its wide movepool gives it plenty of options for spinner control. Forretress is beaten by HP Fire, Tentacruel is beaten by Psycho Boost and Starmie is beaten by Thunderbolt or Shadow Ball. This would be less of a problem if any of the spinners were faster than Deoxys-S, but Excadrill is sadly no longer with us.

    Dual screen Deoxys-S isn't as common as Spiker Deoxys-S, but can be just as good at providing support. Like Spiker Deo-S, its Speed makes it difficult for opponents to stop it from setting up screens, and said screens make it easier for threatening sweepers to set-up and make it harder for the opponent to revenge kill said sweepers. Thought that Dragonite surviving an Ice Beam and getting a Dragon Dance in was agravating? How about it surviving TWO Ice Beams and getting TWO Dragon Dances in? The screens thankfully aren't permanent and Deoxys might be hard-pressed to get them up again, but the momentum you can get from the screens is amazing.

    Life Orb Deoxys-S is really disappointing. Base 95 Special Attack is simply too low for a non-setup sweeper, and I often found myself missing out on KOs in my experience. Just stick to Gengar or even Alakazam.

    Final word: I'll probably vote Deoxys-S Uber if I was on the council, it's nearly impossible to stop it from providing the support it gives without a very specialised team.
  17. New World Order

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    Delta hit it spot on. Deoxys-S is not broken because it's an overwhelming Offensive force, or an unbreakable wall. But its sheer unpredictability will often means you could be down 6-4 before you even know what the hell happened. As well, with Excadrill gone, Hyper Offense and Smash Pass have gone from okay to not okay. Deoxys-S can easily set up Dual Screens, with only opposing Deoxys-S being able to prevent it from doing so. Dragonite, Gorebyss etc can easily set up and proceed to either sweep your team, or pass to say, Jirachi and blow through teams. You really can't do anything about it. Perish Song? Deoxys-S can just Taunt you. Roar? Espeon is just gonna bounce it back. Toxic? Gorebyss is just gonna block it with Substitute. Attack it? Good luck bringing down a Dragonite behind screens. Deoxys-S can consistently get up Dual Screens and Entry hazards, and is therefore broken under the support characteristic.

    Support Characteristic
    A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it can consistently set up a situation in which it makes it substantially easier for other pokemon to sweep
    .
  18. gookie

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    I'm pretty much in agreement with Delta 2777,

    the fact that it can ohko pokemon who can commonly threaten it (unless it's chopletar, which is really rare, or occa scizor which is even rarer) whilst being faster than the whole unboosted metagame, in addition to being able to set up hazards effectively and support other playstyles such as smashpass makes it too much imo.

    also, it actually packs a surprising amount of power, ohkoing most rotom-w's with psycho boost.

    needs to go, imo

    edit: a few sets that show how its unpredictability can destroy a lot of common 'mons

    Deoxys-s @ Life orb / Expert belt 252 hp / 252 sp.atk / 4 def (shift 12 evs into attack from hp / def if using superpower with LO)

    psycho boost
    hp fire / low kick / superpower
    stealth rock
    spikes / thunder / low kick / superpower

    often people with rain teams will lead with tentacruel against deoxys-s, and are promptly destroyed by psycho boost, if the deo-s player is smart they'll often lay sr first to lure the spin or scout the protect. this set also lives a scizor's bullet punch and can return the ohko with hp fire, politoed leads are more often than not beaten with thunder, rotom-w leads are ohko'd by psycho boost or maimed by thunder. non-chople tar is destroyed with minimal attack investment.

    Deoxys-s @ focus sash 252 hp / 252 spe / 4 def

    spikes / reflect
    stealth rock
    taunt
    filler attack move / light screen

    the standard, really annoying on occasion when you predict an attacking one and spend turns scouting with protect / switching and it gets all layers up, often taking the turn to spin will be costly when facing HO. the same applies for smashpass when you realize that your weak attacks can't break the screens.

    these two sets cover the main problems that deo-s can cause, if you spend turns scouting you risk getting all hazards set up, if you don't you risk getting mauled by surprisingly powerful hits.
  19. SkyClaw

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    ...... I'm slowing starting to become very sad with the same old "OMG PKMN X is sooo broken BAN him yesterday." There is a meta game formula that anyone that is competitive knows about. It is thee old strategy ABC theory. Strategy A is most popular and strategy B cannot exist due to A. People get tired of A and find the new strategy C that completely shuts A down. B now becomes viable due to A no longer being popular and thus the changes of the meta game. This is true for EVERY competitive game. Lately it just seems like everyone on Smogon is very pro "Ban it because I don't feel like being good at the game and don't feel like thinking up something new." To get to my direct point right now Deo-S is still in his hype phase give the meta game time to balances out and if down the line he proves to be the most broken thing this side of the Rayquaza river then ban him. (I'm off to play Skyward Sword ^_^)
  20. Kefka Palazzo™

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    I personally don't believe Deo-S is broken, but he is really annoying.

    Unless your running Chople T-tar like Lolcat pointed out(Or CB Abomasnow <,<) he's going to set up at least 2 layers of hazards and he can easily set up screens, making it very hard to take down the rest of the team. Oh, and Lolcat, please tell me how spinning is even remotely "easy" in OU.
    It's basically Starmie or bust. Oh wait, Starmie can't even 2HKO Jellicent without a LO and Starmie can't get past the #1 Spiker, Ferrotroll.
    So if you run LO Starmie, you're going to get raped by Ferrothorn who'll just keep on setting up hazards because he doesn't give a shit about your Life Orb. Using Lefties Starmie now to recover Iron barbs damage? Oh snap, now Jellicent laughs at you :(
    I also find it funny that LO Thunder Starmie just barely 2HKOs Max/Max Jellicent(Yes, I realize barely anyone uses this Jelli set).

    The offensive sets are just meh. Yes, he has good coverage, but he's using low BP moves(aside from Psycho Boost/Superpower) coming from a mediocre 90 offensive stats.

    Deoxys-S just makes the metagame even more stale than how it was when weather was absolutely everywhere. At least you got some variety with Sun, Rain, and Sand(Yes, I realize people still use these). Now everyone just runs Deo-S + 5 sweepers.
  21. TickingSeedotBomb

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    It really needs to go imo. As others said, Delta hit it spot on. Deoxys-S is becoming increasingly popular and with good reason, it's guaranteed to get up at least one of the screens and then stealth rock. Usually both screens, and with a screen up for 8 turns (when using light clay) You can do whatever you want for about 7 turns, and after you get in the shell smash and what not with Gorebyss, you usually have at least 1-3 turns left of screens up.

    The scary part is that Gorebyss can sweep all by herself, she doesn't HAVE to baton pass. so that ice beam you were planning on firing when the Landorus comes in is mute if Gorebyss stays in.

    Espeon is manageable because he's slower and frailer than Deoxys-S and he can't set up hazards so when he's the dual screener you can at least stop him, but Deoxys is guarenteed to get that screen up which makes SmashPass teams SO much better. and if he can get hazzards up, that's good for him!

    The only reason why it'd be bad for him to go is because he's guaranteed to get in that stealth rock to neuter opposing Volcaronas and Dragonites, but if you're team needs SR THAT bad, then Aerodactly is always an option. Even if he isn't as good as Deoxys-S
  22. Umby

    Umby I'm gonna bury you in the ground~
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    The problem I find with this argument is that it can define a number of currently OU Pokemon (even if they aren't as fast as Deo-S. Stuff like Tyranitar or even Gengar). It's completely obvious that any given team is unlikely to be prepared for every threat in the game, and it should follow that not every moveset variant can be accounted for either. To say that Deo-S can rip apart the game in the manner you've suggested is more of a manifestation of that rather than its sole ability to just wreck everything. Unpredictability in a Pokemon and having access to viable, off-standard movesets alone doesn't make it broken unless it's just completely impossible to check/defend against (whereas all you've shown is that certain would-be counters are getting OHKO'd by surprise attacks). It just means that the opponent is forced to think on their toes, which is a given a metagame with this much variety.

    I honestly can't support a ban based unpredictability since IMO that only serves to lower player's ingenuity in mid-battle.

    However, the Support Characteristic holds true, so if those were the premises of a ban, I couldn't argue against it.
  23. ??????

    ??????

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    And Arceus' people said AMEN.

    Deoxys-S is far from broken. I personally lead with Ferrothorn and go for a Gyro Ball rather than set up my own Hazards against it getting a free damage turn when it does for Taunt. It can be annoying in tandem with Dual Screens and SmashPass, but all its sets are easily countered with a timely Taunt of your own. And after it faints, whats stopping you from clearing its Hazards away? All its work is for not. Run Starmie or Tentacruel people.
  24. Eggbert

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    It's probably the best supporter in OU. It can do anything, from set up hazards, to screen, to act as a revenge killer (the LO set is more of a revenger than a sweeper!). LO boosted 95 is pretty good for the usually weak scarfers who can't switch moves. It's also really unpredictable do to its moveset yet at the same time the best at what it does. I think if it were to be found uber, it would have to be only by the support characteristic. It doesn't break anything; its hazards can be spun and it isn't difficult to wall with a bulky team.

    @Who ever thinks this: setting up against it with DD nite as a lead is a bad idea. Reflect can make that +1 be a -1 while something like gyara can turn the tables on you. Deo also carries ice beam and beats you even after a dance, and you honestly don't have a single idea of whether it is carrying it or not. DD nite vs. deo is rarely good for nite so it isn't reliable. Also TR clus isn't unstoppable, DD nite beats it as does scizor lol. Also "WE CAN"T BAN MORE???:( isn't an arguement, that has nothing to do with something being broken.
  25. Thundur

    Thundur

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2011
    Messages:
    435

    I'm jumping on the delta train. I used to think doexys was OU material but its unpredictability lets it be an effective hazard layer / duel screener while surprising you with some coverage move. YAY I HAVE A RAPID SPINNER! Nope chuck tes.... I mean spin blocker. Anyway I would not say it is broken to a point where OU is a mess, but I would definitely vote deoxys uber
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