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Discussion in 'OverUsed' started by JabbaTheGriffin, Nov 20, 2011.
The difference with Espeon is that Dragonite can setup all over her while hp Ice fails to kill him(it fails to do even 50% if you don't run any s.atk evs which seems to be the case since you were talking about DS Esepon).
Also Espeon gets murdered by scarfers and CBTar.
See how i only mentioned full-proof counters to lead DS Espeon and not checks.
I didn't mention things like CB Scizor or even Volcarona since as you said Espeon can carry the right HP.Not that Espeon's movepool comes even close to Deoxys-S's movepool but if it gets the job done ok.
The point is that Espeon gets killed by many things that Deoxys-S walks all over in the lead position with a DS set!
I never mentioned Expert Belt until now because it wasn't relevant until now. Priority is of course an issue, but there's this thing I've heard about. It's called switching. I don't know if that is applicable here, but I think that'd be a great option. Deoxys can actually take a CB Scizor Bullet Punch, the strongest priority in OU. While of course it can't take two, but again why would you keep it in at that point?
In order to spin successfully on Deoxys, you must switch in that first turn. Forretress has its Sturdy broken otherwise, and TBolt is a guaranteed OHKO on Starmie with Expert Belt (although there is a chance to OHKO anyway). Tentacruel is annihilated by Psycho Boost, and UU spinners don't fare too well against it either.
This is exactly what I'm trying to say. Who's to say whether someone can't find some other innovative way to use Deoxys-S? It's really not that hard. Like I said before, it's not about what you think Deoxys will do, it's about what it can do to exploit your knowledge of the metagame.
This is why Deoxys is even good enough to have an Uber Discussion Thread. You're playing into your opponent's hands if you think that Deoxys only has three sets. As soon as it pulls something new out of the hat, you're screwed.
Let's get down to business here. Stealth Rock / Spikes / X / X. That leaves it with two coverage moves...Which are most likely to be ice beam and super power. Possible psycho boost and maybe HP fire. (Pretty rare) That's all you'll see for most deoxys leads. Magic coat isn't a big deal except against other deoxys. That's literally what it's used against. Prankster is so rare anyway. Other than that it leaves deo as setup fodder if it mispredicts and sacrifices coverage. U-turn scizor, offensive politoed, ect pretty much limits this to 2 hazards. Even less. And that's like the #2 mon. Hp fire- guess what, if you ran latias with hp fire a few months ago you would get surprise KOs on just about every Scizor and Ferrothorn not in the rain. Now deo does it and it's suddenly broken? Is superachi uber? is hp fire cloyster in the sun uber? Getting surprise KOs isn't uber material. Also Ferrothorn can easily set up 2 hazards per match. I don't see how this is uber at all. It's actually even worse considering deo falls quickly and ferro is usually around longer.
Allow me to propose a solution to this alien menace we all know as Deoxys-S:
Choice Scarf Gengar
Timid ScarfGar out-speeds and OHKO's DS Deo-S 60% of the time with Shadow Ball, assuming max HP and a Sp.Def-neutral nature.
Deo-S with less than 192 HP EVs (2% chance of surviving with 1 HP, lol) is always OHKO'd; Naive variants have absolutely no chance of surviving.
A max/max Deoxys-S with a +Sp.Def nature (lol) takes ~67-79% from Shadow Ball, a 2HKO even if it gets up Light Screen after the first attack.
Of course, the issue with using ScarfGar is that he's complete and utter Pursuit bait. That, and a smart player will simply switch Deoxys-S out and wait until Gengar is KO'd before sending the alien back in to do its job.
But I digress. :|
What, Dragonite can't beat Deoxys now? If DNite leads, you Taunt him before you get a Reflect up. A smart Dragonite player will see that and just deal 52.6-62.1% with Dragon Claw (Dnite has Max Attack with Lum). Now you either Reflect (where you'll die to Dragon Claw + ESpeed) or get out of there. Either way leaves it without both screens up.
Wait a minute! You wanted to beat Forretress and Scizor, so you have HP Fire and not Superpower! It looks like you're countered....
And there's also this thing I've heard abut. If you're forced to switch out of something, that thing just countered you.
Oh, you know, spin after Deoxys dies which will be in like... turn 4.
"It can run obscure sets, so its broken." Sure, why not.
Actually, its neither. Its what it does do. If no one runs a set, no matter how good it is, no one cares. I can run a bizarre Smeargle that's incredibly anti-meta. Lets ban Smeargle next.
The difference is that HP Fire on Deo-S is actually common and usable(unlike HP Fire Cloyster <,<) so by switching in your Scizor, you're taking a gamble.
Another thing is that, again, those other pokemon(AKA Ferrothorn) simply don't have the speed and move pool. Deo-S can run 0 speed and still be faster than nearly everything, can still have good attacking options(I don't see Ferrothorn killing MixTar or even Scizor too easily), and has just enough bulk for it to easily set up Screens/Hazards/revenge shit.
Can someone explain to me how spiritomb doesn't counter him?? I made a comment about two pages back explaining all the ways he can mess him up.
Because it's Spiritomb...he's niche, he's only somewhat bulky, he's not that strong, he's mediocre, etc.
Basically...it's Spiritomb, there's not much else to say.
There's still the point that, as a suicide lead, Deo-S is by no means Uber. If that's all it could fill, it might even be UU.
But that isn't the point. Deo-S isn't just for Hazards. It exists because it can outspeed fucking EVERYTHING and put decent dents in things that can deal with it setting up hazards.
Do I think that's broken? No. Should that part of Deo-S' attributes be the point of this discussion, not the fact that it's an amazing Suicide Lead? Yes.
That doesn't prove anything.
If deoxys-s lacks calm mind, spiritomb can easily beat him. Spiritomb can boost up using calm mind, and recover any damage with pain split or rest. Once he's built up enough boosts, he can easily take deoxys-s down. And thanks to his ability, it doesn't matter whether light screen or reflect are up. Also, spiritomb resists or is immune to most of deoxys-s's physical attacks. The best he can do to him is rock slide.
Spiritomb counters the offensive version, but is pretty much set-up fodder for the other two. The hazards set gets three layers of Spikes if Spiritomb switches in, and the Dual Screen set is free to throw up both Screens, Taunt you and then switch to something that can set up on a Taunted Spiritomb which is, oh I don't know...everything in OU?
I'd never switch 'Tomb into Deoxys-S unless I knew it was the offensive version because it's a surefire way to put yourself on the back foot.
It doesn't matter. It's Spiritomb. Niche pokemon with mediocre...everything trying to stop Deo-S.
I think I'd rather gamble with my Scizor because I'd at least have a pokemon that's always good.
Well, bandtomb is an interestingly good spinblocker/cm reuiniclus beater. But unless you give him trick and taunt, he can't really do much to deoxys-s.
Especially since Deoxy-S almost always has a Taunt of its own. The thing that makes Deo-s uber imo is the fact that it is guaranteed to set up screens thanks to Magic Coat. This gives the user an insanely good advantage having resisted attacks for 8 turns or w/e it is with Light Clay. The other sets are really good too, the hazards one and the underrated life orb sweeper.
Can I just say that ScarfGar picture is fucking adorable?
TrickBandTomb is an interesting switchin... But if I see Tomb in OU, and my Deo-S is out, my instinct will be to Taunt it. Trick fails. Free Spikes woo!
Espeon and Xatu can do the same if I'm not mistaken.
It's not that easy, if you taunt and it uses shadow sneak then you lose. Needless to say, Spiritomb isn't the best ghost type in OU nor the best spin blocker.
I never got the purpose of "I don't like playing against this, ban it". Whatever happened to learning to adjust? The argument that it can get surprise KOs should be moot. Losing one member of your team should not cost you the game. If you design a team strategy based on not losing a single mon, that's bad planning.
There's some understandable bans.. drizzle + SS, certain clearly uber pokemon, etc.
But seriously.. People are saying Deo-S is bannable because it can run 3 different sets?
Terrakion can run 3 different sets that require different counters too.... hell, the double booster requires 2 different sets of counters based on what move it sets up.. switching to skarmory on the turn it SDs thinking it will polish = dead skarm.. switching to Gengar in the opposite situation = dead Gengar (that is of course, unless stone edge misses). Switching in Scizor to force it out the turn it sets up, and eatimg a banded CC is going to a problem..
Alot of pokemon can run multiple sets that throw off their counters. Dragonite is far more unpredictable than Deo-S, and far more dangerous IMO. Multiscale and a clear field assure that it's never ohko'ed barring crits, and when it does come it, it's an immediate mind fuck as to what to bring in.
If you suffer badly from one of the particular sets of Deo-S, adjust your team. And if you suffer badly from all 3, you probably have team building issues.
Also team preview is a pretty good indicator as to what Deo S is going to be.
If it's a team stacked with sweepers, chances are its a screens user, if it's a team with 1-2 u-turners + rotom-W, it's most likely a hazard setter, and if the team has other common hazard setters in it, it's probably the attacker.
^this is by no means set in stone, but, it can give you an idea.
They can but they don't have the defenses and especially the speed to pull it off the same way. There's literally no pokemon who can outspeed and KO deoxys-s save for really fast scarfers which most likely won't start the battle for fear of psychoboost or w/e Deo-s might carry.
I think people need to take in consideration the Deoxys threat more seriously. The only reason people are whining about it is because they haven't acknowledged its possibilities and limits yet.
Before claiming he's either OU or Uber, please remember the Blaziken issue. People were moaning because it was overcentering the whole metagame and it was said to be uncounterable. But then, people began to use Slowbro as an hard counter. Protect was also thrown on random Pokémons which were still having benefices from it, like poisonheal Gliscor or Raindish Tentacruel.
The point of this is that people then saw that it wasn't uncounterable per say, just like the old good DPPt Garchomp. It's really hard to deal with, but it has its limits (Thanks.). After knowing all the pros and cons, and ONLY after this, we (the Smogon members) decided whether it was good or not to keep it OU. Because its counters were really situational, it was decided that it should move to the Uber zone. The same issue happened with Drizzle + Swift swim overwhelming about everything.
If you see where I'm going, that must be obvious now : I think we haven't thought yet about eventual Deoxys hardcounters. It disallows us to decide about its fate, because we haven't acknowledged yet about where its power stops.
That was for the theoretical part. I personnally thinks it's too strong and versatile, but it has a four-slot syndrome. Again, my personal thoughts aren't better than someone else's ones, but we need to build something together instead of giving our ideas separetely and see if it makes a castle...
The Blaziken situation is not like this at all. When your Slowbro is dead, you get swept. That's pretty much how it went. Also, why are you saying that Gliscor and Tenta with Protect is "random" if they're still using it on almost every set today, months after Blaziken was banned?
You also didn't play Blaziken as a lead, you let the other 5 pokes do something first (or after Blaziken has wrecked hell). The same thing can be applied to DPPt Garchomp, just with more Bronzong.
How is Sand, Hail, and Sun a situational counter for Drizzle + SwSw (no do not bring it back do not take it like that!!!!)
Deoxys on the other hand is played as a lead for 2/3 sets (and those 2 sets are about 10x more common than the LO cleaner), to only let other pokes do the work. And a counter to Deoxys? Rapid Spin and Brick Break/stalling. Those aren't situational either.
We have already said multiple times where the power stops because the main sets have no power to begin with, its just team support.
During the Blaziken era, it was kinda weird to use Protect on Tentacruel iirc, but it proved to be useful even when Blaziken wasn't out, so people kept using it.
I have to disagree about the lead thing : it's true that you can use Deoxys as lead, but then you appear to exactly fulfill the clauses of my previous post :
You haven't even considered Deoxys outside the lead position. It makes it even worse. The reason I'm using Deoxys in my teams is because he's versatile and everyone thinks it's a lead. But if you happen to use it outside the lead position, it might wreak havoc until your opponent have acknowledged its four moveslots.
Your post is kinda irrelevant in my opinion, because you're claiming that something with 95/95 stats has "no power". It looks like you haven't been fighting a Deoxys lately. It's not all about pure power but about coverage and speed. For instance, Regigigas has 160/80 stats, but no one's gonna use it, even if it seems to satisfy your uber definition.
Protect was NEVER rare on a Gliscor/ Tentacruel, but whatever...
Did I not say that? Yes, I know it can be used outside of the lead position, but so many more people don't its not even funny. You know how many HO teams pack an offensive Deoxys? None. People are only considering it broken in the first place because HO is so good right now. Very few people are claiming the LO cleaner to be broken, and that's what you're focusing on.
Actually, I have. And it set up Spikes.
However, you seem to forget that for the first five turns, it has 50 base Attack (right? Its somewhere around there) and doesn't have better things to do then attack. Regigigas is completely irrelevant.
Thank you, Agammemnon. Whenever people say that it has three sets is really just ignorance. They're setting themselves up to be destroyed by SR + 3 attacks or Taunt + Recover. The second you think you know what it's going to do is when you lose. I think that over time people will come to realize that it has no hard counters, especially when it can do whatever the hell it wants with its godly speed and enormous movepool.
I feel that the anti-Uber side has made no legitimate arguments of its own. All there time is spent trying to refute our arguments with questionable logic and irrelevant posts. And then all these random "counters" to it that have absolutely no viabilitity otherwise. Deoxys is beginning to have more of an influence on the metagame than you might think. I've seen more CB Scizor than ever before, as well as spinners on around one out of every four or five teams.
I've used the Regigigas example like I could have the Rampardos one. Please don't make me say things I haven't said.
Protect was rare in the BEGINNING but Gliscor handling the metagame forced it to use Protect because people started to throw HP Ice on everything.
Here's a glaring illustration of what I was talking about earlier : You focus on the lead Deoxys without thinking about its possibilities outside of it.
For sure it ends to the same result, aka Deoxys might be Uber (or might not, that's not really the point of the debate RIGHT NOW), but the protocol isn't the same at all and that's what I'd like to point out.
We need to see what it can do before we're able to discuss its status.
As a personal statement, I'd say it's way too versatile.
EDIT : To be honest, I'd like to keep playing with it because it's like having a shotgun when people have knives. BUT as an above-crap user (at least I hope so), I want it gone for the same reasons I wanted Excadrill gone : It's problematic to take care of.
In my opinion it's uber, but the reason people want to keep it OU is because they're egoists.