Deoxys-S Tiering Discussion

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DetroitLolcat

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someone said:
Jellicent can literally switch into any of these
Jellicent switches into Starmie???

LO Starmie's Thunderbolt against 248/0 Jellicent: 53-63%


No common Ghost can switch into LO Starmie. Jellicent is forced to spam Recover as Starmie kills it.

The fact of the matter is that Starmie will Spin against a common OU team, even if it dies in the process (which it usually won't). If I'm running Deoxys-S and want to keep my hazards up, I can't give the opponent one turn to do anything (even after a kill) if the opponent has a Starmie.

Especially if the opponent is running Rain, as then Thunder and Hydro Pump start whaling on me.
 
Tiering is pretty easy. You don't have to look at "centralization", "metagame health", "gayness (what an eloquent term)" or any "characteristics of a desirable metagame". You look at one thing: is the pokemon "far too powerful to exist in a balanced metagame". That's what Smogon's Philosophy says. I quote that line in like every tiering post I make because it's simple, not confusing, and pretty easy to determine. Let's look at the first word of that quote:

"far"
I'd like to point out that,generally speaking, it's the "balanced metagame" part that is in question, lesser than the "far too powerful" aspect. Both halves are equally important given this definition.
 
Support Characteristic
A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it can consistently set up a situation in which it makes it substantially easier for other pokemon to sweep.

Offensive Characteristic
A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it is capable of sweeping through a significant portion of teams in the metagame with little effort.
Ban this thing already. In the support characteristic, it's almost always able to get SR and spikes out immediately, if you want to try and spin it could just be running a move to OHKO them, or leave them with next to no health if they are Sturdy. After dealing with this scenario dozens of times on the ladder I am absolutely sick of it and this "lose to Deo-S teams or lose to normal teams" metagame. If you want to run something like Whimsicott or Sableye it can even Magic Coat them. Every attempt to stop a lead Deo-S from setting up all over you bar Espeon can lead to absolute failure if it has the right moves.

The offensive set is my favorite to face because it's the easiest to deal with but it is still very cheap late game and has a crazy amount of revenge killing utility, I know others have elaborated more.
 
I'm one of the few people who actually does run ChopleTar against this thing so that it usually (I have seen some hazard sets run extra defense EVs so that Crunch is only a 2HKO) never gets more than one layer of hazards and I still know for a fact that it's far too good.
 
It basically guarantees a layer of spikes and SR up. I use mienshao to only let it get 1 layer up, but not everyone uses that. Now that Thundurus is banned, the only common priority taunter is... Sableye? Deoxys-S is the reason offence gets to shine like it does, and LO Deoxys-S has ridiculous coverage, which can be a huge pain for many teams. Despite all this, it's still taken out by 2 of the most common pokemon in the metagame; Scizor and Tyranitar, and other Fake Out users like mienshao and Infernape.

On HO teams it is even more broken. It guarantees both Reflect and Light Screens up, allowing something to set up easily and plough through opposing teams. I'd say it should be Uber, just because of the fact that it's unpredictable (support or offencive?) and that it guarantees 2 layers of hazards or dual screens.
 

Joeyboy

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I believe Deoxys-S is OU. I believe this because while it may be a nuisance it has never been broken. With Deoxys comes two major traits, an amazing support movepool and an unparalleled speed.

Deoxys-S is considered probably the single best support pokemon in the OU meta. Why? Because not only is its movepool phenomenal but it accomplishes everything it does quickly. A faster taunt, faster hazards, faster screens; it swoops in and before you know it, it's done it's job. So? Gliscor can taunt, Forretress can lay hazards and Azelf can set up screens; the appealing thing about Deoxys-S is he can do all of those tasks, only faster. So we can safely say the main "suspect" quality of Deoxys is his speed. But there are plenty of ways to get around that. I myself have been running a Magic Coat Smeargle as an anti-lead recently. As the Deoxys tries to taunt my 'obvious' Spore I Magic Coat, netting me the advantage.

Quoting Doug's characteristics of a desireable metagame the rule that Deoxys 'seems' to break is

Variety
The metagame should have the widest possible variety of playing options and strategies that are viable and competitive for knowledgeable players.
A common idea is that Deoxys 'centralizes' the lead metagame. This is not true. It is popular yes, but thats because it does what it does well and it does it easily. It's like, back a few rounds, when everyone was getting up in arms because it seemed like everyone was running the same teams, be it sand or rain. They thought it was too centralizing, but of course that wasn't the case; during this time many great players created some really fun interesting new sets. The, for lack of a better word, whiners were all just using the 'easy' 'mons, who they knew did their job and did it well. So while it may seem that Deoxys removes Variety in reality it doesn't. Before you know it a new set will arise and take its place.

The final argument is that along with all this support Deoxys can also be a powerful cleaner. When has this every been grounds for banning something? So Cleaner Deoxys can remove pokemon who usually counter the support set. There are plenty of examples of this happening with other pokemon. CD-nite destroys some of DD-nites common switch ins; Jirachi has dozens of sets that all beat different pokemon. If you're left in a bad position end-game where a cleaner Deoxys can finish you off that just means the opponent did his job, because I think we can all agree that Cleaner Deoxys is not sweeping teams out right.

Of course this is all up for discussion, I would be more than happy to argue points of this post with anyone. Because of course the more heads the better.
 

shrang

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Jellicent switches into Starmie???

LO Starmie's Thunderbolt against 248/0 Jellicent: 53-63%


No common Ghost can switch into LO Starmie. Jellicent is forced to spam Recover as Starmie kills it.

The fact of the matter is that Starmie will Spin against a common OU team, even if it dies in the process (which it usually won't). If I'm running Deoxys-S and want to keep my hazards up, I can't give the opponent one turn to do anything (even after a kill) if the opponent has a Starmie.

Especially if the opponent is running Rain, as then Thunder and Hydro Pump start whaling on me.
Funny, Starmie's been just awful as a spinner every time I've played against it, or every time I've tried it. Jellicent isn't usually on a team with Deoxys-S anyway (unless you're using Specs Jelli) because Deo-S is normally more associated with faster paced teams that carry a lot of offense (eg Volt Switch/U-Turn teams). In those circumstances, the spin blocker only NEEDS to switch in once against Starmie to block Rapid Spin, even if it gets killed in the process. I'll just use Mostwanted's Apocalypse team as an example:

Common situation:
- Stealth Rock and Spikes are set up and Deoxys-S dies.
- Starmie comes in against *insert Poke X* somehow (seriously, name ONE offensive Pokemon that Starmie can come in against, ONE)
- Player switches to Gengar and gets OHKOed by Hydro Pump. Now player switches to Rotom-W. (Starmie is at 65%)
- Starmie player: What do?

Basically, the biggest problem with LO Starmie and spinning against Deoxys-S teams is that you have NO switch-ins whatsoever. Offensive Starmie cannot switch into ANY Pokemon on your typical offensive team without dying, and these are the teams that typically carry Deoxys-S as their hazard layer. Even IF you kill their spin blocker, they just easily pull the momentum out of Starmie's hands, and by the time you get another chance to spin, it's already way too late.
 
In my opinion Deoxys-S should be Uber.

Well, Deoxys-S is no doubt the fastest non-scarfed pokemon in OU, but what makes it so good is his versatility. Deoxys-S can be a Entry Hazards set up user, a Dual Screener, or even a Life Orb All-Out Attacker. Well, it's nearly unpredictable. Yeah, you heard me. For example you switch in a Scarf Landorus to hurt Deoxys-S with U-Turn, assuming it's a hazards layer, but then you got hit by a random Ice Beam in the face. For now, I'm going to go through the sets and explain why it's broken.

Entry Hazards Deoxys-S
Well, this is probably most common Deoxys-S set, it's used on almost every Heavy Offensive teams. The reason this set is broken is just because of it's speed + focus sash. Its speed allows you to set up Stealth Rocks as fast as possible, and even if your opponent attacks you, you still have the sash which allows you to proceed to set up a layer of Spikes or something like that.

Dual Screens Deoxys-S
Well, this set is a staple on every Smashpass teams, and having it in smashpass teams is also one of the reasons of why Smashpass is broken. With Deoxys-S's high speed and decent bulk, setting up screens won't be a problem at all. What makes it even worse is, it has Taunt. Taunt just stops anything from setting up, and therefore you can't set up against Deoxys-S.

Life Orb Deoxys-S
This is probably one of the rarest Deoxys-S set in the current OU metagame. It might not be one of the most powerful All-Out attacker, but Deoxys-S's High Speed paired up with Decent Offensive Stats and Great coverage might be causing a lot of trouble. Well, people might be like "Scizor could shit on Deoxy-S any day", but false. Deoxys-S has enough bulk to take a Bullet Punch from Scizor, and then proceed to OHKO it with HP Fire. Yes, even Special Defensive Scizors are OHKO'd by HP Fire. Besides that, this set can outspeed a lot of common scarfers in the current OU metagame and kill them. For example, Landorus, Terrakion, Rotom-W, etc.

That's all I wanna say I guess, but i'll respect everyone's opinions on Deoxys-S.
 
Deoxys-s has its fair share of criticisms like dragonite, terrakion and volcarona. There are aspects to it that leave you to decide whether it is really broken or not. Most of the time I hear these complaints it's just from the dissatisfaction of seeing Deoxys on teams. I remember when Wifi Clause was rather new and everyone was complaining about the "there's no definitive leads in this meta!..." Well, here's one.

But seriously if you complain about the diversity of Deoxys-s and the predicting of it. You must also hate Dragonite (6 sets), Terrakion (3 for OU) and Volcarona (4 sets) and don't forget Jirachi (with 6 sets too). So if anyone says it "centralizes" the metagame they should seriously stop and think about what exactly they're saying; this is the most diverse game we've ever had but it seems people are getting annoyed by the names they see more than what exact set they could be running let alone the other team's strategy.

If you really want my personal stance on the idea of deoxys-s getting banned I am against it. I think this is just another bandwagon ban like with what happened in the last suspect round. If you really want a comparison I believe excadrill is more broken than deoxys (and I am seriously still on the fence about exca getting banned).
 

TheFourthChaser

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Ban this thing already.
Aldaron knows I've been in agreement with yee on the idea of banning Deo-S, it completely shapes the meta and in a quick few games on ladder (and I'm 100% sure it'll be true in ST8 R1) you'll see this. Adding on, the Dual Screen set is really damn good, throw it on with 5 sweepers and you're good to go. It's nearly impossible to stop from getting the screens up and then you can just easily use your combination of Dragonite, Terrakion, and whatever else you want and your opponent, not really mattering what is being used because the opponent will be overcome, can't do anything. How are you stopping that? Prankster Taunts, basically unused because of the Thundurus ban, or Brick Break. Even with Pokemon like Sableye and Whimsicott around Deo-S has the option of running Magic Coat and Brick Break is used by nothing in the meta, nothing really CAN run it.

A common idea is that Deoxys 'centralizes' the lead metagame. This is not true. It is popular yes, but thats because it does what it does well and it does it easily. It's like, back a few rounds, when everyone was getting up in arms because it seemed like everyone was running the same teams, be it sand or rain. They thought it was too centralizing, but of course that wasn't the case; during this time many great players created some really fun interesting new sets. The, for lack of a better word, whiners were all just using the 'easy' 'mons, who they knew did their job and did it well. So while it may seem that Deoxys removes Variety in reality it doesn't. Before you know it a new set will arise and take its place.

The final argument is that along with all this support Deoxys can also be a powerful cleaner. When has this every been grounds for banning something? So Cleaner Deoxys can remove pokemon who usually counter the support set. There are plenty of examples of this happening with other pokemon. CD-nite destroys some of DD-nites common switch ins; Jirachi has dozens of sets that all beat different pokemon. If you're left in a bad position end-game where a cleaner Deoxys can finish you off that just means the opponent did his job, because I think we can all agree that Cleaner Deoxys is not sweeping teams out right.
I don't really understand how Deo-S doesn't create a lack of variety, nearly all teams are DS+5 or revolve around the hazards abuse it offers, what set can possibly be created that would replace it as a screener or suicide hazards mon? The same(very common) style of play might not even be used without Deo-S around, pulling off DS+5 is so much harder without that crazy speed Deo has. I also don't believe it's a common idea that Deoxys centralizes the lead metagame because there isn't really a lead metagame, especially compared to the lead metagame of DPP(yes I totally mentioned 4th gen).

Team Preview is another argument I'm sure will/has come up and it's something that doesn't hurt Deo as much as it benefits it. You can see if I'm running screens, hazards, or clean up but the only one that will be annoyed by preview is cleaner and even then the player should know whats needed for the clean up while the opponent is more focused on "omg lets stop *insert sweeper here*".


I honestly don't understand why some people say Gen V is a "crappy" metagame compared to the past gens. I've played through all of these different gens, and I am enjoying the variety offered in Gen V a lot.
Lets not start on that one...
 

Pocket

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shrang - Funny, Starmie's been just awful as a spinner every time I've played against it, or every time I've tried it. Jellicent isn't usually on a team with Deoxys-S anyway (unless you're using Specs Jelli) because Deo-S is normally more associated with faster paced teams that carry a lot of offense (eg Volt Switch/U-Turn teams). In those circumstances, the spin blocker only NEEDS to switch in once against Starmie to block Rapid Spin, even if it gets killed in the process. I'll just use Mostwanted's Apocalypse team as an example:

Common situation:
- Stealth Rock and Spikes are set up and Deoxys-S dies.
- Starmie comes in against *insert Poke X* somehow (seriously, name ONE offensive Pokemon that Starmie can come in against, ONE)
- Player switches to Gengar and gets OHKOed by Hydro Pump. Now player switches to Rotom-W. (Starmie is at 65%)
- Starmie player: What do?

Basically, the biggest problem with LO Starmie and spinning against Deoxys-S teams is that you have NO switch-ins whatsoever. Offensive Starmie cannot switch into ANY Pokemon on your typical offensive team without dying, and these are the teams that typically carry Deoxys-S as their hazard layer. Even IF you kill their spin blocker, they just easily pull the momentum out of Starmie's hands, and by the time you get another chance to spin, it's already way too late.
^ Or you could just lead with Starmie and wear down Deoxys-S / spin hazards. The best opportunity to spin hazards is when Deoxys-S is on the field. Fortunately, Deoxys-S cannot Taunt Starmie from Spinning.

You could argue that Deoxys-S packs Shadow Ball / TBolt to dispatch Starmie, but that just means that it lacks Taunt, which makes it a huge set-up bait, letting you set-up your own hazards / set-up a Sweeper.

Deoxys-S is versatile, yes, but it can't pull all of them off. The chances are only 1 specific variation of Deoxys-S can dismantle your primary answer to Deoxys-S, but that only opens up that Deoxys-S to bigger and worse problems in general.

I agree with Joeyboy about Deoxys-S NOT "centralizing" the metagame. You do not NEED to use Deoxys-S or Heavy Offense to be successful - it's only popular because of its new-found effectiveness from the loss of Excadrill. Heavy Offense has in a sense replaced Sand as the new offensive face in the metagame, but sand, rain, sun, bulky offense, and other playstyles are still perfectly playable. A much different case compared to pre-Excadrill ban, where Excadrill's presence really stifled the effectiveness of weatherless teams.

I honestly don't understand why some people say Gen V is a "crappy" metagame compared to the past gens. I've played through all of these different gens, and I am enjoying the variety offered in Gen V a lot.

Yea, Deoxys-S is OU in Gen V.
 
Wait what? First are we saying "suicides leads are dead" and then "deoxys-s is imba" what?

Sure it can set up, it can revenge kill, but heck other things can too and thay are not being subject of discussion here. Maybe this is all about the fact that exca and thundurus are banned and the fact that Deoxys-S was uber for the past gens that have everyone freaking out. I don´t think that centralizes the meta. If you have a solid team that can handle common threats, then you can handle Deoxys and as Pocket said, it can setup and revenge kill, but it´s not very good at doing both
 

TEzeon

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Deoxys-S is one of those Pokemon that has insane versatility. Dealing with it effectively 100% of the time is practically impossible. However, it is also an underwhelming attacker that relies solely on the variety of moves it can use. It has two measly 95's in attack bases, preventing it from securing sure fire KO's unless attacking a frail opponent or getting in a x4 effective hit. Support sets are always limited to two or less attacking moves, more often than not being a combination of ice beam, super power and either fire punch or hidden power fire.

The real issue is dual screens, and honestly, if you look at the bigger picture, you would realize that dual screens itself is not broken. It is always the strategies that follow it which prove to be too much to handle at times, such as smashpassing. Therefore, Deoxys-S should not be banned.
 

tehy

Banned deucer.
I personally don't believe Deo-S is broken, but he is really annoying.

Unless your running Chople T-tar like Lolcat pointed out(Or CB Abomasnow <,<) he's going to set up at least 2 layers of hazards and he can easily set up screens, making it very hard to take down the rest of the team. Oh, and Lolcat, please tell me how spinning is even remotely "easy" in OU.
It's basically Starmie or bust. Oh wait, Starmie can't even 2HKO Jellicent without a LO and Starmie can't get past the #1 Spiker, Ferrotroll.
So if you run LO Starmie, you're going to get raped by Ferrothorn who'll just keep on setting up hazards because he doesn't give a shit about your Life Orb. Using Lefties Starmie now to recover Iron barbs damage? Oh snap, now Jellicent laughs at you :(
I also find it funny that LO Thunder Starmie just barely 2HKOs Max/Max Jellicent(Yes, I realize barely anyone uses this Jelli set).

The offensive sets are just meh. Yes, he has good coverage, but he's using low BP moves(aside from Psycho Boost/Superpower) coming from a mediocre 90 offensive stats.

Deoxys-S just makes the metagame even more stale than how it was when weather was absolutely everywhere. At least you got some variety with Sun, Rain, and Sand(Yes, I realize people still use these). Now everyone just runs Deo-S + 5 sweepers.
Awww kefka, you remembered!!! I'm so touched...

On a more serious note, sableye eats out deoxys-s. Unless it carries magic coat(Which it often does, now), sableeye can prevent it from laying any hazards or screens, and is immune to its two most common coverage moves, and isn't 2hitko'd by any of its max special attack life orbed other coverage moves.
 

tehy

Banned deucer.
Funny, Starmie's been just awful as a spinner every time I've played against it, or every time I've tried it. Jellicent isn't usually on a team with Deoxys-S anyway (unless you're using Specs Jelli) because Deo-S is normally more associated with faster paced teams that carry a lot of offense (eg Volt Switch/U-Turn teams). In those circumstances, the spin blocker only NEEDS to switch in once against Starmie to block Rapid Spin, even if it gets killed in the process. I'll just use Mostwanted's Apocalypse team as an example:

Common situation:
- Stealth Rock and Spikes are set up and Deoxys-S dies.
- Starmie comes in against *insert Poke X* somehow (seriously, name ONE offensive Pokemon that Starmie can come in against, ONE)
- Player switches to Gengar and gets OHKOed by Hydro Pump. Now player switches to Rotom-W. (Starmie is at 65%)

Two for one baby!
Here's the one it can switch into...
You ready...?
Deoxys-s!!!!!!!!!

Here's a few tactics(Most involve lefties, but LO starmie can go suck it.)
A: Lead, spam spin. When you feel like he'll switch out, either attack, or switch to ss user/t-spiker.
B:Lead with SSer, let him get up a layer. Kill spinblocker on the switch. He'll be back.

- Starmie player: What do?

Oh yeah, and infernape has been seen on these teams before. By me. This is sort of a switch-in, although you can be outpredicted.

Basically, the biggest problem with LO Starmie and spinning against Deoxys-S teams is that you have NO switch-ins whatsoever. Offensive Starmie cannot switch into ANY Pokemon on your typical offensive team without dying, and these are the teams that typically carry Deoxys-S as their hazard layer. Even IF you kill their spin blocker, they just easily pull the momentum out of Starmie's hands, and by the time you get another chance to spin, it's already way too late.
Two for one baby!
Here's the one it can switch into...
You ready...?
Deoxys-s!!!!!!!!!

Here's a few tactics(Most involve lefties, but LO starmie can go suck it.)
A: Lead, spam spin. When you feel like he'll switch out, either attack, or switch to ss user/t-spiker.
B:Lead with SSer, let him get up a layer. Kill spinblocker on the switch. He'll be back.

Deoxys-s player:What do?
 
Dammit, we want to ban more shit that isn't even remotely broken?

1. Let's fix this by bringing Excadrill back down, please?4 OU votes, 1 Uber vote should not = Uber, especially when it has counters, checks, revenge killers, weather changers, etc. /rant
Stopped reading there, seeing as you clearly don't know that Excadrill has exactly ONE reliable counter, that has to pidgeonhole it's otherwise flexiable self into a highly specialised set, sacrificeing all offensive presence, just to stop Excadrill.

Not to mention it has about two checks [Skarmory, who can force it out ONCE, and Bronzong, who loses more often than not] and one Revenge killer that can OHKO it [CB Azumarill, no-one uses CB Conkeldurr]

And revenge killers aren't an argument when you have to sarifice something to get them in.

And the metagame changed between each suspect vote. So the 4 non-Uber ones are effectivly void.

---

Anyway, on the topic of Dexoys-S. I personally do not feel that the issue is with hazards. Ferrothorn is capable of setting up the same hazards, at any point in the game, almost as easily due to his typing and defenses. So is Skarmory, and even Forretress.

I feel that the issue is with the Screens he can provide, and the ease with which Deo-S can set them up.

With threats in the metagame such as SmashPass, Multi-Scale Dragonite, Terrakion, Volcarona, bulky waters under rain, and many, many more, Duel Screens is a very potent weapon to have, especially when you're almost guarenteed to set them up early in the game.

A battle can be over very quickly just by Deo-S stopping rocks from going up with Taunt, and then sacrificeing itself to put up Screens so Dragonite can set up to +2 or even more without any effort whatsoever.

Obviously, Dragonite is the worst offender in teamstyles like this, with SmashPass being a close second, but the ease with which Deo-S can support the brutal set-up sweepers in OU, by setting up Screens with little to no way to prevent them, I feel breaks it in OU.

Deo-S can even run Focus Sash to guarentee both screens going up, and can probobly get away with it if you're running something like DD Dragonite, as all he'll need is three turns.

However, other duel-screeners can be prevented from setting up, or cannot prevent you from doing the same. Espeon is actually possible to outspeed, and dosen't have Taunt to prevent your own setup, for example. Bronzong is slow, and easy to taunt. There is no way to stop a lead Deo-S from getting up at least one screen.

Despite this, however, I am still unsure on which way I would swing with Deoxys-S' teiring position.
 

SJCrew

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Whenever I see a Deoxys-S and five offensive mons prior to the battle, I sigh because I know what's exactly going to happen.

A) My opponent is going to get offensive momentum and there's nothing I can do about it.

B) I can't switch anything into Terrakion or Haxorus now without it dying because Spikes are up and whoops, Starmie/Forretress died to an attack.

C) No rocks for Volcarona. NO ROCKS FOR VOLCARONA

D) No rocks for Dragonite.

I mean, what can you do? He can threaten everything in the game or otherwise, stop it from setting up while he does so. Starmie and Forretress are not safe switch-ins, don't even try to spin against him. You're playing at a disadvantage every time you see him and you know it. But you can't even stop him. "Gee I hope I guess right..."

Ugh.
 

shrang

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^ Or you could just lead with Starmie and wear down Deoxys-S / spin hazards. The best opportunity to spin hazards is when Deoxys-S is on the field. Fortunately, Deoxys-S cannot Taunt Starmie from Spinning.

You could argue that Deoxys-S packs Shadow Ball / TBolt to dispatch Starmie, but that just means that it lacks Taunt, which makes it a huge set-up bait, letting you set-up your own hazards / set-up a Sweeper.
Or... you can just switch in Rotom-W to take whatever. Stay in and die, if you switch out, you just Volt Switch straight back to Deoxys-S and you're back where you started.
 

alexwolf

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I am in the fence about Deoxys-S.

As already mentioned his scarier and most dangerous set is the double screen set uper.

It makes Hyper offense teams especially hard to face and can be ohkoed by almost nothing in OU behind the apropriate screen.

Of 'course there are ways around it like CBTar,SpecsToed,CB Scizor U-Turning to another priority user so that Deoxys-S will only setup 1 screen,the rare Brick Break and some more that i may forget.

But these counters all get screwed by moves commonly run by other Deoxy-S sets like HP Fire,T-bolt and Superpower.
And when facing Deoxys-S you don't have the time to switch around trying to explore his moveset 'cause in the meantime he will be setting hazards and screens that will be difficult as heck to be removed.

...Now that i think of it better,Deoxys-S has to go!

And offensive teams have plenty of good double screeners left to use if Deoxys-S leaves like Espeon and Latios!
But of 'course these pokes cannot do 3 jobs at the same time like no other poke can(prevent setup,setup screens,setup hazards) like Deoxys-S.
 
Sash TTar anyone? Crunch/Payback for the OHKO (SS takes care of Deo's sash). And worst case scenario they have SR up and your TTar is at 100% with sash intact. It worked in GenIV Ubers, it should work in OU ffs.

Really, what's next to ban? TTar? DW Mence?
 

SJCrew

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Locoghoul: I believe you want Chople Berry. It doesn't restrict Tyranitar to the lead position and achieves the same desired effect even if he loses some HP (he can lose up to the high 40s before being threatened by LO Superpower).
 

Taylor

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The suspect results' may improve the metagame but that is because it gets closer to what we desire the more we restrict what we have available to us. Naturally, the less viable, but still effective threats move up in the ranks to take a banned suspects' place and therefore the "new and improved" becomes territory unknown.

But the last vote we had saw two pokemon banned that were not as broken but more so a "balance" to the already clustered metagame. There are too many individual OU pokemon that are quite frankly too good to pass up on a competitive team. Excadrill and Thundurus out of the way, Deoxys-S suddenly finds its diverse movepool much easier to execute to great effect; supporting any other pokemon who are already undeniably powerful under screens.

It's speed and Psycho Boost seriously make the offensive difference from other Pokemon who can use the BoltBeam and Fighting moves for fantastic type coverage.

Volcarona, Terrakion, Dragonite and the like are already insanely bulky in their own right for what they contribute offensively, but for Stealth Rock and Reflect/Light Screen support swiftly set-up by Deoxys-S, it is abnormally difficult to deal with for OU to promote a sense of balance in and around.

For me personally I am saying Uber with the way I see the current OU tier condition.
 

alexwolf

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Sash TTar anyone? Crunch/Payback for the OHKO (SS takes care of Deo's sash). And worst case scenario they have SR up and your TTar is at 100% with sash intact. It worked in GenIV Ubers, it should work in OU ffs.

Really, what's next to ban? TTar? DW Mence?
And what does this set does to double screener Deoxys-S??

Absolutely nothing as it sets up double screens and even rocks if you don't run a lot of attack.

In my opinion the most dangerous set is the double screener and this is what should be discussed the most!
 
Deoxys-S should be uber IMO. Its very presence guarantees its trainer that either Stealth Rock or dual screens are getting set up. It practically forces you to run Espeon to stop it, and even then, that's only as far as Taunt or Stealth Rock goes. Espeon can't stop it from setting up dual screens. Whimsicott can slam it with priority Taunt, sure, but then it has to eat a Superpower from that thing. Then again, Tornadus resists Fighting, but almost nobody uses him, at least in my experience. I once had a battle on PO involving a Deo-S lead that set up dual screens before I was able to KO it. Then the opponent brought out a Smashpassing Gorebyss with White Herb and passed to... I think it might have been a Metagross. I should have saved that log. Regardless, I remember how that battle ended; very badly.

Long story short: Deoxys-S is unpredictable, nearly unstoppable, and is clearly uber material.
 
Support Characteristic said:
A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it can consistently set up a situation in which it makes it substantially easier for other pokemon to sweep.
In my 1100>point opinion, Deoxys-S is uber under the support characteristic. Despite its lack of bulk, it can taunt anything without Magic Guard or Prankster. After Taunt, it can come in and set up multiple layers of spikes and/or Stealth Rock.

If you pair Deoxys-S with a spinblocker, you can keep said entry hazards up for the duration of the game. Sometimes, Deoxys-S (through its entry hazards) will do more damage than any other pokemon on either team. Deoxys-S can also set up dual screens faster than any other pokemon, allowing many frail pokemon to sweep.

I've never personally had a problem with offensive Deoxys-S. But his 99% guaranteed ability to set up 3 layers of spikes is too powerful for the OU metagame.
 
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