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Dewgong (Update) [QC 1/2]

Discussion in 'Locked / Outdated Analyses' started by Joim, May 16, 2013.

  1. Joim

    Joim Navigate the pitfalls, cross the great divide!
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    So I noticed Dewgong's analysis's a bit wrong, so I'd rather revamp it to meet nowadays standards :3

    [Overview]

    <p>Dewgong is a poor man's Lapras, having much less HP and less Attack; but it boasts the same Defense and Special and it's faster, which is its only small niche on the Overused environment. The main problem of Dewgong is its terribly shallow movepool, unable to run a ParaFusion set as Lapras does, unable to use decent coverage moves, and the lack of Thunderbolt to deal with other Water-types especially hurts it, as Dewgong is lacking another niche like Cloyster's Clamp and Explosion or Slowbro's Amnesia; but it still has some strong STABs and access to Mimic to slightly palliate that problem.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Offensive
    move 1: Blizzard
    move 2: Body Slam
    move 3: Hyper Beam
    move 4: Mimic / Surf

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Boasting 95 Special, Dewgong's offensive power is as high as Jynx's and Lapras's, who only damages slighty more with Body Slam, which is used mainly to paralyze foes anyways. Its average speed of 70 lets it outspeed Lapras and hope for the first Body Slam paralyze, it also lets Dewgong to outspeed and KO dangerous foes like Golem and Rhydon, outspeed and finish a halved HP Exeggutor, which is 2HKOd by Blizzard. Blizzard can even damage seriously Articuno, Moltres, and Zapdos, who can't hope to switch into Dewgong. Dewgong can even 3HKO Snorlax and has a small chance to 2HKO Tauros, which has merit. Anyways, keep in mind that Dewgong is basically a worse version of Lapras with worse movepool as well as stats bar speed. Expect it to perform as an inferior Lapras in every regard, so always consider using it first in any serious game.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>A STAB Blizzard coming out from a Special stat of 95 is no joke, it can damage seriously most OU Pokémon, so what Dewgong does best is spamming it. Mimic is in the set due to Dewgong's limited movepool, you can use it to hope to catch a useful move like Thunder Wave, Psychic, Sleep Powder, or even Starmie's Thunderbolt, which Dewgong seriously lacks; but it's a luck-based move. Hyper Beam is there as an option to finish off badly damaged Lapras and Jynx, who laughs at both Dewgong's Blizzard, but it will generally deal puny damage. You could use Surf instead of Mimic to make sure you are going to KO Rhydon and Golem. Surf damages a bit more Cloyster too, but that's about it.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>The only other interesting move that Dewgong learns and could be useful against Lapras, Chansey, and Snorlax, is Double-Edge, but 70 Attack is just too low to put it to good use.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>STAB Blizzard is scary both for its raw power and freeze chance, but there are several OU Pokémon who are not afraid of switching into Dewgong, who's best in a UU environment. Main counters are Water-types with a second STAB or Thunderbolt. Lapras, despite being slower, is usually going to beat Dewgong unless it gets paralysed first and is fully paralysed to death. Otherwise it pretty much walls Dewgong. Starmie can deal with Dewgong with Thunderbolt easily, resisting both Surf and Blizzard, but doesn't like Body Slam's paralysis chance. Chansey can paralyse Dewgong, Thunderbolt variants will have it easy to damage it, but Chansey must be wary of game changing freezes. Alakazam will Recover off all the damage and Thunder Wave on you, so your only chance is to freeze it or paralyze it with Body Slam and lower its health with Blizzard to nail a final puny damaging Hyper Beam; however, a paralysed Alakazam is helpless and it becomes a much more unreliable check. Slowbro totally walls Dewgong as well and won't mind paralysis thanks to Rest, so it can use Dewgong as a set up fodder to get up a couple of Amnesias, but repeteadly switching into STAB Blizzard could compromise its sweeping capabilies, denting its health. Cloyster can totally wall Dewgong and it can Clamp it to freely switch in and out to a more solid damaging counter, however it lacks the means to seriously damage Dewgong as well. Gengar is faster and can use Thunderbolt to seriously hurt Dewgong, thanks to its high Special stat Gengar will survive enough Blizzards to KO Dewgong. Jolteon is as fast and frail, but it's also really powerful and its Thunderbolt will deal with Dewgong. Jynx isn't scared of Ice-type attacks and it can hit Dewgong hard with its neutral STAB Psychic. Zapdos is barely a check, as it must be aware of the powerful Blizzards that will dent or KO it, but it can severely damage Dewgong with its powerful Thunderbolts.</p>
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2013
  2. Jorgen

    Jorgen World's Strongest Fairy
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    Dewgong should be getting a UU analysis if anything. There's really no reason to worry about an OU Dewgong analysis because it's really bad in OU.
  3. Crystal_

    Crystal_
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    I was going to say that too.
  4. Joim

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    My main concern is that current OU analysis is lackluster, so if there's an OU one I see no reason to not to update it so it's less bad.
  5. Crystal_

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    The current dewgong analysis on site look alright to me, at least for smogon old gen analysis that is. That Double Team mention is weird though, I know. Oh and the fact that Snorlax is listed as a counter reminds me of what Hipmonlee once said about Snorlax being listed as a counter to every shitty pokemon because "it has high HP".

    If anything though, the moveset should be Blizzard / Body Slam / Hyper Beam / Mimic imo. If you want Surf, slash it second after Mimic.

    But yeah, go ahead with the update, it's going to be better than the original and that's a good thing. Once the OU RBY analyses are all updated (by me or whoever else) I might start updating some mons of the lower tiers in relation to both their performance in that low tier as well as in OU and come up with brief two-part analyses. The "lower tiers" are just UU I guess, but BL has been merged with UU in Smogon so I dunno.
  6. Jorgen

    Jorgen World's Strongest Fairy
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    I really wouldn't waste your time with it. A useful update for Dewgong is writing one for UU. Otherwise, there's not really a good reason for not only yourself, but also QC and GP people to devote time towards this.
  7. ElectivireRocks

    ElectivireRocks Banned deucer.

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    Things like Farfetch'd have an OU analysis.
    Dewgong's niche might be incredibly small, but it's still larger than that poor excuse of a pokemon.
  8. NixHex

    NixHex what is béisbol
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    Another reason for updating old gen analyses is to bring them up to Smogon's current-day standard; not only writing quality-wise as has been addressed by Jorgen, but to get them in the right format.
  9. Joim

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    It also says wrong things on stats vs Lapras :P
    The problem with Hyper Beam is it's puny damage to anything, but I think it's better to do what you said, yeah. And yes, in Smogon it should be UU :P

    Well it's already written, and I know that's pretty good besides making the changes Crystal_ already said. Don't worry for GPers, I can slave mikel and shame that to GP anything for me :P
  10. Oglemi

    Oglemi gimme
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    Here's the deal, in order to write an RBY UU analysis, Smogon needs a defined RBY UU tier, which it does not currently have. Hipmonlee dissolved the BL tier and merged it with the old UU, and there has been no testing or anything since to determine a balanced UU tier. I know other sites have done a lot of work into creating a stable RBY UU metagame, but Smogon has not. Until Smogon can definitively say we have an RBY UU tier, we cannot reliably write analyses for it; whether we merge with other sites' RBY UU tier is for another place and time.

    As it is, Smogon has all of its RBY UU Pokemon analyses written for the OU metagame. Apparently, the current Dewgong analysis does not reflect at all what it should be doing. If Joim wants to write an analysis to reflect what Dewgong should be doing in OU, then he is free to do so. Whether or not you should use Dewgong in OU is a different matter.

    He cannot write an analysis for the UU metagame because it technically does not exist at present. Until such a time happens, Joim should be allowed to write an update for Dewgong in OU because that is all he can do.

    Once the UU tier is figured out for Smogon's purposes, then the Dewgong analysis will reflect what it can do in UU, and the OU one will be deleted as, from what I understand, there is no reason to use Dewgong in OU since Lapras exists.
  11. Joim

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    Updated the OP, sporting a better moveset now and fixed a couple of typos.
  12. Crystal_

    Crystal_
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    Remove this. Keeping things like these out of the artcile is the main reason to remake underused pokemon's analyses.

    Note that Dewgong outspeeds and 3HKOes Snorlax and has a small chance of 2HKOing Tauros.

    Also SC and AC comments make Dewgong kinda look that it is a decent Pokemon. I don't think that's good... I'd be more definitive saying something like that for all intents or purposes Dewgong is merely a worse Lapras with worse stats and worse movepool unable to hit other water types due to lacking tbolt, which is universal in rby for hindering and making basically unusable every thunderboltless water pokemon without a differentiated niche (Slowbro: Amnesia, Cloyster: Clamp, Explosion). Dewgong is a 10 speed higher Lapras but worse in every other aspect. We should tell everybody the truth so that the conclusion he/she can take from articles of pokemon like Dewgong is that: okay, this is a pokemon is shouldn't use in any serious game. Because that's what most on-site analysis are lacking. They say they are many things about the pokemon that aren't good but fail to say explicitly how the combination of these things make for a completely inferior and outclassed Pokemon that should not be used in overused play.


    Zapdos is not really a Dewgong counter.

    Lapras / Chansey / Starmie > Alakazam (note that only if it isn't para) > Slowbro > Cloyster (cause Cloyster also has a hard time damaging Dewgong back after all) > Gengar / Jolteon > Jynx? > Zapdos?

    That would be a good order to follow imo.
  13. Joim

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    Okay, edited OP again.
  14. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
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    We don't need an OU Dewgong analysis - the one on-site should be deleted.

    Also, Cystal_ wrote an entire article on RBY UU, so the metagame is technically acknowledged by Smogon. If we're writing an RBY Dewgong analysis, it would be based on this RBY UU metagame. Anything else should be rejected.
  15. Joim

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    Sadly a single article does not define a whole metagame. I keep wondering why some of you ask yourselves "Why do it?" instead of "Why not?". All fully evolved gen 1 Pokémon have an analysis on-site, it would be stupid to destroy that work. We should strive for more quality content rather than no content. An analysis saying Dewgong is bad in OU is better than no analysis, because the UU metagame is totally different in Smogon due to the lack of BL and it's thus not defined, as Crystal_'s article takes into account the existance of BL.
  16. Crystal_

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    ok the following are mostly personal suggestions, take them with a grain of salt. These are just some rewording suggestions that would look better / more accurate to me. Feel free to address all, some or none.


    Anyways, keep in mind that Dewgong is basically a worse version of Lapras with worse stats bar speed. Don't expect it to win you any games, don't expect it to be as good as its counterpart Lapras. -> (change to) Anyways, keep in mind that Dewgong is basically a worse version of Lapras with worse movepool as well as stats bar speed. Expect it to perform as an inferior Lapras in every regard, so always consider using it first in any serious game.
    Every Pokemon may win you a game at some point given the scenario. I think a better argument to show that Dewgong is a very bad pokemon would be to compare it to the totally superior Lapras, as suggested above

    Hyper Beam is there as an option to finish off badly damaged Lapras and Jynx, who laughs at Dewgong's Surf and Blizzard.
    I'd talk a bit about Body Slam before Hyper Beam too. Body Slam is there for Chansey, Lapras and Jynx mainly as well as the paralysis bonus against stuff like Starmie, but note its low power.

    but then Exeggutor can switch in into it and Sleep or Paralyze you.
    Exeggutor won't switch into Dewgong regardless because it's is 2hkoed by blizzard and it's hit before moving. It's just that Surf offers basically nothing other than negligible extra damage against Jynx, Golem and Rhydon, though it might come in handy against Cloyster.

    Starmie can deal with Dewgong with Thunderbolt easily, resisting both Surf and Blizzard, but doesn't like Body Slam's paralysis chance.

    however, a paralysed Alakazam is helpless. -> Note that a paralysed Alakazam becomes a much more unreliable check
    It's not totally helpless, it might still do a fine job.

    Slowbro totally walls Dewgong as well and won't mind paralysis thanks to Rest, so it can use Dewgong as a set up fodder to get up a couple of Amnesias, but repeteadly switching into STAB Blizzard could compromise its sweeping capabilies.

    Gengar is faster and can use either Thunderbolt or Mega Drain to seriously hurt Dewgong

    Jynx isn't scared of Ice-type attacks, can sleep Dewgong, and won't take much damage from anything that Dewgong can throw at it, so it can defeat Dewgong reliably. -> Jynx isn't scared of Ice-type attacks and can hit Dewgong hard with a neutral STAB Psychic.


    Regardless, QC 1/2. Good job!

    However, I think you should at least change the Surf/Exeggutor one.
  17. Joim

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    Made all changes since I deemed it good changes :) Updated OP!
  18. Hipmonlee

    Hipmonlee Have a rice day
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    How I would approach UU analyses generally:

    Talk about strengths and weaknesses. STAB blizzard is always good. Against waters that are reliant on water and ice attacks dewgong can freeze them. Against physical attackers it has decent defence and a strong special attack, though not really enough defense to be any use against OU physicals. Its great against flying types, especially Dragonite. It can beat non RL grasses and grounds but isnt good at switching into them.

    Keep the mention about being utterly outclassed by Lapras.

    There is a lot to be said about its usefulness, then when people look at a banlist for a uu metagame, they can see if the pokemon they expect to be used a lot are the sort of thing dewgong is good against.

    The counters section here is far to specific. Main counters are: Jynx and Waters that have either a second STAB or electric attack, Zam and Chansey, Electrics and Gengar.

    So I would say, assume OU rules, but keep in mind that given someone is considering using Dewgong, in all likelihood their opponent might also be using something other than the 3 psychics and the 3 normals.
  19. Joim

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    I think this is ready as an OU analysis, maybe Dewgong could get its own UU analysis too, taking into account the UU meta. Anyone else wants to add something so we can be done with this?
  20. Oglemi

    Oglemi gimme
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    If/when we decide to work on the RBY UU tier, Dewgong should probably not get an OU analysis as it's directly outclassed by Lapras, making this mostly unnecessary. moving to l&o
    Pocket likes this.

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