Board Game Diplomacy - Game Over

Ampharos

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Slim Guldo - Austria:
disband A Trieste


Aura Guardian - Italy:
A Munich - Bohemia




Adjustments Needed:
Quagsires - England - Build 1
Da Letter El - France - Build 2
Aura Guardian - Italy - Remove 3
Agape - Russia - Build 2
starwarsfan - Turkey - Build 2

Winter 1903 ends 4/13 around 11 PM CDT (GMT-5). Time may be later depending on when I get home from PAX.
 

Ampharos

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Quagsires took over 24 hours to send his builds.


Quagsires - England:
Build F London


Da Letter El - France:
Build F Marseilles
Build F Brest


Aura Guardian - Italy:
Remove A Bohemia
Remove F Adriatic Sea
Remove A Trieste


Agape - Russia:
Build F St Petersburg(nc)
Build A Moscow


starwarsfam - Turkey:
Build F Smyrna
Build A Constantinople




Player - Country - Supply Centers
Slim Guldo - Austria - 1 (Vienna)
Quagsires - England - 4 (Edinburgh Liverpool London Norway)
Da Letter El - France - 9 (Brest Marseilles Paris Belgium Holland Munich Portugal Spain Tunis)
billymills - Germany - 1 (Venice)
Aura Guardian - Italy - 2 (Rome Trieste)
Agape - Russia - 8 (Moscow St Petersburg Warsaw Berlin Denmark Kiel Rumania Sweden)
starwarsfan - Turkey - 9 (Ankara Constantinople Smyrna Budapest Bulgaria Greece Naples Serbia Sevastopol)

Spring 1904 ends 4/15 at 11 PM CDT (GMT-5).
 
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Ampharos

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Slim Guldo - Austria:
A Vienna - Trieste (*Fails*)


Quagsires - England:
F Helgoland Bight - North Sea
F London - English Channel
F North Atlantic Ocean - Mid-Atlantic Ocean (*Bounce*)
F Norway - Norwegian Sea


Da Letter El - France:
F Brest - Mid-Atlantic Ocean (*Bounce*)
A Burgundy Supports A Munich
A Holland - Ruhr (*Bounce*)
F Marseilles Supports F Spain(sc) - Gulf of Lyon
A Munich Supports A Holland - Ruhr (*Cut*)
F North Sea - Holland (*Dislodged*)
F Spain(sc) - Gulf of Lyon
A Tunis Hold (*Dislodged*)
F Western Mediterranean Supports A Tunis (*Cut*)


billymills - Germany:
A Venice Supports A Vienna - Trieste

Aura Guardian - Italy:
F Gulf of Lyon - Western Mediterranean (*Dislodged*)
F Tyrrhenian Sea Supports A Constantinople - Tunis


Agape - Russia:
F Baltic Sea Supports F Denmark
A Berlin - Munich (*Fails*)
F Denmark Supports F Helgoland Bight - North Sea
A Galicia - Silesia
A Kiel - Ruhr (*Bounce*)
A Moscow - St Petersburg
A Rumania - Budapest
F St Petersburg(nc) - Barents Sea


starwarsfan - Turkey:
F Aegean Sea Convoys A Constantinople - Tunis
A Albania Supports A Budapest - Trieste
F Black Sea - Constantinople
A Budapest - Trieste
A Constantinople - Tunis
F Ionian Sea Convoys A Constantinople - Tunis
F Naples - Rome
A Serbia Supports A Budapest - Trieste
F Smyrna - Eastern Mediterranean



Retreats needed:
Da Letter El - France - F Nth, A Tunis
Aura Guardian - Italy - F Lyo

Summer 1904 ends 4/16 at 11 PM CDT (GMT-5).
 
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Ampharos

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Da Letter El - France:
F North Sea - Edinburgh
A Tunis - North Africa

Aura Guardian - Italy:
F Lyon - Tuscany



Fall 1904 ends 4/18 at 11 PM CDT (GMT-5).
 

Ampharos

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Slim Guldo - Austria:
A Vienna - Trieste (*Dislodged*)


Quagsires - England:
F English Channel Supports F North Atlantic Ocean - Mid Atlantic Ocean (*Cut*)
F North Atlantic Ocean - Mid-Atlantic Ocean
F North Sea Supports F Norwegian Sea - Edinburgh
F Norwegian Sea - Edinburgh


Da Letter El - France:
F Brest - English Channel (*Fails*)
A Burgundy - Belgium
F Edinburgh Hold (*Dislodged*)
F Gulf of Lyon Supports F Marseilles - Piedmont
A Holland Supports A Burgundy - Belgium
F Marseilles - Piedmont
A Munich - Ruhr
A North Africa - Tunis (*Fails*)
F Western Mediterranean Supports A North Africa - Tunis (*Cut*)


billymills - Germany:
A Venice - Rome (*Fails*)

Aura Guardian - Italy:
F Tuscany - Tyrrhenian Sea (*Fails*)
F Tyrrhenian Sea - Western Mediterranean (*Fails*)


Agape - Russia:
F Baltic Sea - Kiel (*Bounce*)
F Barents Sea Supports A St Petersburg - Norway
A Berlin Supports A Kiel - Munich
A Budapest Supports A Trieste - Vienna
F Denmark - Kiel (*Bounce*)
A Kiel - Munich
A Silesia Supports A Kiel - Munich
A St Petersburg - Norway


starwarsfan - Turkey:
F Aegean Sea Supports F Ionian Sea
A Albania - Apulia
F Constantinople - Black Sea
F Eastern Mediterranean Supports F Ionian Sea
F Ionian Sea Convoys A Albania - Apulia
F Rome Hold
A Serbia - Trieste
A Trieste - Vienna
A Tunis Hold




Retreats needed:
Slim Guldo - Austria - Retreat A Vienna
Da Letter El - France - Retreat F Edinburgh

Autumn 1904 ends 4/19 at 11 PM CDT (GMT-5).
 

Ampharos

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Slim Guldo - Austria:
A Vienna - Galicia


Da Letter El - France:
F Edinburgh - Clyde




Adjustments Needed:
Slim Guldo - Austria - Remove 1 - Removes A Galicia - Austria has been eliminated.
Quagsires - England - Remove 1
Da Letter El - France - Remove 2
Aura Guardian - Italy - Remove 2 - Removes F Tuscany, removes F Tyrrhenian Sea - Italy has been eliminated.
Agape - Russia - Build 3
starwarsfan - Turkey - Build 3

Winter 1904 ends 4/21 at 11 PM CDT (GMT-5). Taking more than 24 hours will result in a call-out.
 
Proposing a four way tie between germany, turkey, russia and england

And accepting agape's proposal

I very much doubt turkey can win, he should at least consider the proposal to end the game. In the scenario where russia and turkey somehow are the only two remaining, russia would control enough centers.to win.
 
Denying Quagsires' proposal.

Accepting starwarsfan's proposal of 2-way tie between Turkey and Russia.



Talked with swf about this. He won't accept a 3-way tie. Sorry Quags :/ I think it's best for all of us to end this game now. Since Turkey refuses anything but a 2-way tie, the only thing this game offers to France, Germany and England at this point is spectating the juggernaut take over you all and eventually either Russia and Turkey forcing a 2-way tie or watching a long Turkey/Russia war. I think nobody wants this. This was a quick, decisive and cool game. Good game all.

I'll drop more thoughts in the postgame, I actually started writing comments already but erased them all, it'd be arrogant to write postgame notes when the game's still on...

E: Denying the 2-way tie is just stalling the game and wasting everyone's time. Look at the map. Juggernaut line of Nwy-Mun-Tun before 1905.
 

Bass

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I would like to apologize to Walrein for making the following post as it is his game and ultimately what transpires next will be his decision, but I would like to share my two cents on this matter as an outside observer and formerly active diplomacy player.

Except in the case of a quasi-unbreakable stalemate, ties are a cheap cop-out and ruin the game for the following reasons:

(1) They allow undeserving players to "win"
This needs little explanation, the fact that Agape and I were nearly given a chance of joining the winners circle is evidence of that. And before anyone else mentions it, just look at the second diplomacy game hosted on smogon, I fucking "won" that with 1 supply center because EARTHWORM and billymills were my friends. It is sort of akin to "collabing" in a mafia game, which is highly frowned upon.

(2) "Permanent" alliances without backstabs are imbalanced
Indeed, I think swfan did a good job at drawing the line in regards to (1) by only accepting a tie with Agape, but that doesn't scratch the surface as far as my issues with ties go. The thing is, having been the perpetrator and victim of many voracious backstabs in diplomacy, I see them as an integral component of the game. From an outsider's point of view, alliances can be viewed as "two powers acting as one", which essentially results in twice the number of units being used for a single cause. In certain scenarios, this is obviously imbalanced. The very existence of backstabs is one mechanism that keeps this in check, without it you basically have an unfair advantage over other players who aren't in another "permanent" alliance.

(3) They make the game less interesting in the end
In a nutshell, permanent alliances prevent the other players from having a fair chance from a diplomatic perspective. Imagine if Russia and Turkey were not allowed to win together, then DLE would still be capable of winning the game by convincing either swfan or more likely Agape that sticking with the Juggernaut for too long could favor one player's victory over the other. However, even if the game did end up being between swfan and Agape anyway, it could still be interesting. Timing the inevitable backstab and psychologically predicting your opponent's orders lead to a fun and anxiety-ridden set of final turns. In the end, the better player wins. For example, see this diplomacy game.

I am not going to pretend that I or many other players were not guilty of the same thing in the past, but I do want to point out from experience that it does make the game less fun. As I have already said, ties should really only be used for unbreakable stalemates (which are possible), but look at this game, already over by the end of 1904! It is probably too late to change anyone's mind for this game, but I do think anyone who intends to play swfan's upcoming game should think about it.
 

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