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Ditto (BW2 Update)

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by Spirit, May 28, 2013.

  1. Spirit

    Spirit
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    [​IMG]

    Baddest bitch in town

    [Overview]

    <p>Ditto has been doing the same thing since its inception: transforming into its opponent. With Imposter, Ditto is able copy the opposing Pokemon and its stat boosts almost flawlessly without wasting a turn setting up, allowing it to revenge kill setup sweepers, such as Shell Smash Gorebyss, Fraxure, Sawsbuck, and Shell Smash Carracosta. With a Choice Scarf attached, Ditto is guaranteed to outspeed those same offensive threats. Unfortunately, Ditto cannot copy the HP stat of its opponent, making it frailer than its target in most situations, as Ditto's fully invested HP stat is only equivalent to an uninvested base 79 HP stat. As it must carry a Choice Scarf, Ditto will always be limited to one move. As a result, Ditto has difficulty beating most setup sweepers, including Bulk Up Gurdurr and Braviary; Swords Dance Scolipede and Samurott; and Calm Mind Serperior and Musharna, making it an inferior revenge-killer, the one job it can actually do. This also makes it difficult for Ditto to pull its weight against defensively oriented teams, as its power is in the hands of the opponent and the opponent can often plow through it. While Ditto can work, it's far too situational to fit on most teams, as there are too many revenge killers in NU that can do its job more reliably.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Doppelganger
    move 1: Transform
    item: Choice Scarf
    ability: Imposter
    nature: Relaxed
    evs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
    ivs: 2 Atk / 30 SpA / 3 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Using a Choice Scarf, Ditto will be guaranteed to outspeed almost every offensive threat that it comes into contact with. The only reason Transform is there is because Ditto needs to have a move; otherwise, it is completely useless. Despite how it might seem, Ditto isn't just limited to being a revenge killer. Thanks to Imposter, when Ditto transforms, it is able to attain knowledge of the opponent's moveset. This information can prove to be invaluable when dealing with unpredictable Pokemon, such as Golurk, Eelektross, and Samurott. In some cases, Ditto can even use moves such as Rapid Spin, Stealth Rock, Spikes, and Aromatherapy to its advantage, thus supporting its teammates. Oftentimes, Ditto's frailty makes it difficult for it to switch into a setup sweeper and take advantage of its boost, so wise prediction is necessary on your part to get it in safely. Even if Ditto does get the chance, do keep in mind that setup sweepers are rather uncommon in NU; even most offensive teams generally limit themselves to one.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>There are two things Ditto does not copy from the opponent&mdash;HP and IVs. HP is maximized for this reason. When transforming into an opponent that possess Hidden Power, the above IVs give Ditto Hidden Power Grass, the most useful for defeating Water-types that often carry Hidden Power, such as Gorebyss and Samurott, though it does leave Ditto setup bait to Sap Sipper and Grass-type Pokemon. Ditto can also change the IVs to 3 Atk / 30 SpA / 3 Spe to attain Hidden Power Electric so that it can reliably revenge kill Mantine and Charizard; however, Ground-types such as Golem will be able to do whatever they please against Ditto if it gets locked into it.</p>

    <p>Ditto will often be switching in and out throughout the course of the match, so Poison-types such as Skuntank and Garbodor pair well with Ditto in absorbing Toxic Spikes. Ditto pairs well with offensively orientated teams for two reasons. First, Ditto will be able to switch easily into Pokemon who are immune to their own attacks, such as Zebstrika and Sawsbuck. Second, Ditto cannot transform when a Pokemon is behind a Substitute, so offensive teammates such as Primeape and Ludicolo can put enough pressure on the opposition to the point where they will not be able to set up a Substitute.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>Choice Scarf is the only viable item on Ditto, as it guarantees that Ditto can outspeed setup sweepers. No other item can possibly replace the utility that Choice Scarf provides.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>Ditto is such a quirky Pokemon that there really is nothing that "counters" it in the traditional sense. The best way to "counter" Ditto is to stop it from taking advantage of your team's entry hazard setter or setup sweeper, which can be troublesome at times. The best way for offensive teams to deal with Ditto is for their setup sweeper to run a Substitute, as Ditto will not be able to transform when its target is behind one. Without a Substitute, it is too risky to use offensively orientated boosting moves. For balanced or stall teams, it is difficult to stop Ditto from coming in and taking advantage of your entry hazard setter or Rapid Spin user; however, Ditto will often be switching in and out throughout the course of the match, so setting up Stealth Rock at the beginning will help wear it down. Something to keep in mind is that when Ditto transforms, you know what moves it carries, so intelligent maneuvering and a little guesswork will help you defeat it. Unburden Pokemon such as Drifblim also deal well with Ditto, as Ditto will be unable to outspeed them because it does not copy its opponents' boosts from the ability. The most efficient way to combat Ditto starts before the beginning of the match; so long as your team has proper defensive synergy, Ditto will only be a minor nuisance.</p>

    Skeleton
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    [Overview]
    • Nice catch all revenge killer
    • Great ability
    • not copying HP can be a blessing or a curse
    • can scout movesets thanks to its ability
    • how well it performs depends on the current nature of the metagame
    • great against offensive inclined teams
    • okayish in balanced
    • subpar in defense
    • what it can revenge kill is really limited because most sweepers can take their own coverage moves or stabs
    • very niche pokemon, but it works if you need a choice scarf revenge killer that can take on a little bit of everything

    [SET]
    name: Doppelganger
    move 1: Transform
    move 2:
    move 3:
    move 4:
    item: Choice Scarf
    ability: Imposter
    nature: Relaxed
    evs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
    ivs: 2 Atk / 30 SpA / 3 Spe (Minimum HP Ice ivs)

    [SET COMMENTS]
    • ditto isn't a one trick pony, despite what it may seem
    • ditto can often be used in the lead position, this allows ditto to scout a Pokemon's move set, thus either use the Pokemon's entry hazards to its advantage or ease up prediction on offensive or even stall teams
    • choice scarf is the only item ditto should be using to consistently revenge kill, transform is just there because ditto needs a move
    • against balanced or stall teams ditto can transform into opposing rapid spin user for its team and get rid of hazards, pass wishes, or even give heal bell / aromatherapy support
    • against unpredictable pokemon such as Samurott, Eelektross, or Ludicolo, ditto's ability to scout move sets can be a life saver for its team
    • it's best to take advantage of what team preview has to offer to make the most out of ditto, meaning to get rid of any defensive threats the team's own offensive pokemon can't break past and thus determine which offensive Pokemon ditto will take on when the time is right

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
    • There are two things ditto does not copy from the opponent, HP and ivs
    • While uncommon, using minimal attack and speed ivs along with a relaxed nature is needed in case ditto gets into a struggle with another one
    • It's best to maximize hp, as in some cases ditto can even be bulkier than the sweeper it's against, making it more difficult to revenge kill
    • Hidden Power Ice is chosen as it is the most useful Hidden Power in nu
    • HP Grass ivs
    • HP electric ivs
    • Good switch in to Pokemon who are immune to their own attacks such as sawsbuck and zebstrika
    • Focus Sash to switch moves though very shaky and depends on your ability to keep hazards off the field
    • Hates toxic spikes, a poison-type teammate can help deal with it
    • Keep up enough offensive pressure so that the opposing team's sweeper can't setup a substitute, otherwise ditto will be useless

    [Other Options]
    • lol no

    [Checks and Counters]
    • Nothing "counters" ditto in the traditional sense
    • You have to stop ditto from doing it's job (i.e. sweeping your team or taking advantage of your boosting sweeper, hazard setter, ect) which at times can get difficult
    • For offensive teams, the best way to stop ditto is to set up a sub, ditto can't transform
    • Also for offensive teams, it's best to carry some defensive synergy (basically build a good team so it doesn't take advantage of an ice or fighting weakness and mop the floor with you)
    • setup is way too risky when ditto is on the opposing team, so a substitute is recommended for setup sweepers if facing ditto
    • Keep in mind that when ditto transforms, you know what moves it carries by virtue of it's ability, so intelligent switching and prediction is another way to beat it
    • for balanced teams, one must be careful of ditto taking advantage of your hazard or rapid spin user, though it is easy to wear down due to its low hp stat even when invested and vulnerability to hazards because of its constant switching
    • stall teams have little trouble from ditto, but they should be careful for its ability to take their own hazards and use it against them and scout their Pokemon's move sets
  2. Hollywood

    Hollywood ᕕ┌◕ᗜ◕┐ᕗ Chugga Chugga! ᕕ┌◕ᗜ◕┐ᕗ
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    [SET COMMENTS]
    • Cut the mention that "the best way to use ditto is to reap the benefits of its signature ability." It's basically fluff since the only other way to use it is 100% worse. You don't even really need to describe Imposter in the overview since there is a description on the page already.
    • Mention that it can be nice to switch into Pokemon like Sap Sipper Sawsbuck and Lightningrod Zebstrika. While Sawsbuck can be a bit dangerous to switch into because of Return/Double Edge and Jump Kick, switching into Horn Leech gets a Sap Sipper boost and leaves you with a dangerous +1 Choice Scarf Sawsbuck. This is really cool for offensive teams that may otherwise have trouble switching into these Pokemon.

    [Additional Comments]

    • Grass is a pretty mediocre attacking type. It hits Carracosta and Seismitoad hard, sure, but outside of that, I would say that Ice pretty much entirely outclasses it. I would use 2 Spd EVs for HP Ice instead, though which Hidden Power you want to use pretty much boils down to whatever your team needs. HP Ice is just one of the best Hidden Powers in general. This is especially true for handling Pokemon like Calm Mind Serperior who would otherwise beat this set easily with HP Grass.
    • Cut the mention of Rapid Spin support since Rapid Spin in NU is pretty bad, and taking up an entire team slot just for Ditto is not worth it. Instead, I would note that Toxic Spikes in particular are a pain for Ditto, so using a Poison-type to absorb them is appreciated.

    [Checks and Counters]

    • The part about stall teams isn't entirely true, since Ditto can set up hazards and status Pokemon on stall teams. It can also phase a stall team's phaser (including Riolu !_!) since a choice scarf means it will always go first. You can even scout movesets with it at the very worst. I'd note that while stall teams have significantly less trouble against Ditto, they should also be careful of these things.
    • Mention specifically that setting up without a Substitute is incredibly dangerous when the opponent has a Ditto and should be avoided at all costs. You touched on this when you said "For offensive teams, the best way to stop ditto is to set up a sub, ditto can't transform," but I would like to see this emphasized a bit more.

    Otherwise, everything looks good. If you have any questions, feel free to ask. Make these changes, and

    [qc]1/3[/qc]
  3. Spirit

    Spirit
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    Thank You, changes made.
  4. scorpdestroyer

    scorpdestroyer is a pious radio
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    I'm not QC but here's my two cents

    1) You should mention somewhere that Ditto will most likely lose to Bulk Up / Calm Mind set up sweepers since they boost their defense as well, especially against things that do not carry a SE move against itself or are naturally bulky

    2) IMO HP Electric is the best option since pretty much the only things in NU that carry Hidden Power and have no other way to hurt themselves are Gorebyss, Serperior and Butterfree, and you shouldnt be switching Ditto into Serperior anyway since it's usually CM

    3) Life Orb in OO?
  5. Spirit

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    Yeah, I was going to expand on that part with balanced teams in the write up and put that tidbit there.

    I'll just let QC weigh in on that.

    Certainly not. The only reason Focus Sash is being put into AC is that even though it's a 50/50 shot, Focus Sash basically ensures that you don't die, while it gives you the ability to switch moves and better take on bulkier teams. Life Orb basically draws everything into luck and wears ditto out fast. It's a High-risk low-reward kinda thing and I don't wanna encourage new players to use something that bad.
  6. Hollywood

    Hollywood ᕕ┌◕ᗜ◕┐ᕗ Chugga Chugga! ᕕ┌◕ᗜ◕┐ᕗ
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    Yeah, the Hidden Power issue really comes down to what your team is most weak to. I've had it argued to me since posted that HP Grass would be the best. I personally think that HP Ice, mainly because of Serperior, is probably the best. Plenty of Hidden Power types are good on it, so I don't know that there's one catch-all. For now, go ahead and leave Ice, but if other QC members suggest something else, change accordingly.
  7. tennisace

    tennisace another eggnog, please
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    [​IMG]

    QC 2/3

    This is prolly the simplest analysis in NU lol. Just be sure to mention the merits of the different hidden powers and you're fine. If you want something to put in "other options" then you could move Focus Sash there because it functions a bit differently than Scarf does. Also mention that some Pokemon function better than others because they gain their power from their ability, stuff like Toxic Boost Zangoose will beat Ditto because unless Ditto is poisoned, it won't get the attack boost. Just something to keep in mind!
  8. Raseri

    Raseri here to help
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    One thing that i'd mention is that even on offensive teams, there is often a lack of true set-up sweepers for Ditto to take advantage of. They're often trying to hit fast and hard and limit themselves to maybe one set up mon per team, mening Ditto won't be getting a lot of boosts.
  9. Spirit

    Spirit
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    This is written and ready for its final check.
  10. Furai

    Furai a Ωdefender // a αguardian
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    dont say whore in an analysis wtf oO
  11. Spirit

    Spirit
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  12. Sweet Jesus

    Sweet Jesus Neal and Jack and me, absent lovers...

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    wait a minute, wow why does he have those IV's ? I understand for hidden power, but that reason about the struggle war is absurd. First off, you don't copy the IV's, so when you revenge kill a tauros or whatever physical attacker, you want max att, with the IV's ! Secondly, even for a struggle war, you'd want max attack because struggles deals 25% of YOUR hp in recoil, not 25% of the damage dealt. Oh and for the hidden power, ice is not the best, get back to grass. You have to wonder what runs hidden power before actually thinking which is the best. The most common users are electrics and waters which makes grass the best option. I think this should get back to 30 IV's in sp.a and att and the rest at 31.

    Now, maybe I didn't get something straight, but I think there are debates to be done before a third qc check.

    I'll make my checkup asap

    EDIT: ok, I was the one getting it wrong, you copy the stats so yeah I guess IV's are irrelevant but make it hp grass.
  13. Spirit

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    Made the change.
  14. Sweet Jesus

    Sweet Jesus Neal and Jack and me, absent lovers...

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    This is not true, ditto can't do shit to about every defensive mon

    Mention he speed ties with other scarfers and maybe a brief mention he doesn't copy unburden boost so he doesn't revenge kill drifblim, you can add him to checkers and coutners too.

    Ok, it's really not mentionned clearly that defensive mons (not bulk up calm mind users, I'm talking about stuff like golbat) can completely abuse him because a choiced defensive mons with 5 pp sucks, it should be mentioned in overview and in checkers and counters. It's already breifly mentionned, but it'd be nice to have it more explicitly mentionned with some explanation too.


    change rather uncommon to less common than in other tiers, we still have a bunch.
    ok, this whole thing here is wrong. First off, you're gonna run hp grass, because of rott, +2 gorebyss not ohko'ing itself 100% of the time with surf and because you can hit rotom-f neutraly while he can only hit himself with resisted attacks. Zebstrika already overheats himself anyway, haunter shadow balls himself and serp has sub anyway and can set up on ditto using hp ice with no problem. No need to mention sap sipper mons, that's a natural thing about locking yourself in a grass type move and no sap sipper mon runs hidden power so it's pointless. I'm not sure if there's need to mention other hidden powers, I,ll leave it to discussion (maybe rock for zard though I think air slash will do fine)

    take away the focus sash mention in a/c and add it to oo. Replace what you written in oo by an explanation of why a lefties set is not as effective (speed tie = unreliable, less pp = shit against def mons)

    and now most of all, why is sub not mentionned anywhere !!! It should be mentioned in checkers and counters as the ultimate ditto solution and prolly other places too. (EDIT: oh ok I read too quick, well fine then)

    Now, I'm not qc'ing this because I still don't like a couple of things and I believe the 2 previous qc members passed a little too quick on this so I'd like this to be checked by a 4th qc member.
  15. Spirit

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    It is, but I didn't name specific examples. I didn't think specific example were needed because it's rather self explanatory that it cant do crap to defensive mons.

    That's entirely what I wrote. X_X

    Well yeah, it's a revenge killer, not a sweeper.

    The point though, is that it can switch into its STABs, which is useful when some offensive mons have difficulty doing so. This was something QC told me to add.

    I mentioned it because I was told to mention the pros and cons of each HP. Mentioning being setup bait to sap sippers is kinda huge imo, as it disrupts your sweep and the fact that HP is the only way to beat Gorebyss.

    That's why I specifically said revenge killers, I thought it was obvious that it could speed tie with opposing scarfers?

    But it is... ;-;

    No offense, but you can please read what I wrote? Half of your critiques are already there and the remaining is just kind of obvious/unneeded. I'm not even sure why I should put something like Leftovers into OO just to call it bad and say not to use it. What's in OO already says that w/o putting unneeded ideas in anyone's head. It's called "other options", not "list of things you shouldn't use". That's seems contradictory to me.
  16. Sweet Jesus

    Sweet Jesus Neal and Jack and me, absent lovers...

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    The thing is, you don't want to say unescessary stuff but most of all you don't want to lie. Yes it's obvious you speed tie with other scarfers but it not true to say
    Not to mention drifblim who outspeeds ditto after unburden (which you need to mention in checkers and counters)

    For the hidden power, I mean you're gonna run hp grass as main option, I didn't leave you the time to change it after I told you to put it as main in my first post and I appologize. Now you still have to watch out for some things like these
    seismitoad does not run hidden power 95% of the time which means you should not mention him. Same goes for rotom-s who runs it 11% of the time and hits itself nearly as hard with thunderbolt as he would with hidden power. This means you can take away hp ice because it's really an inferior option, if you're weak to tangela or serp, ditto is not the mon you're looking for.

    Now for other options, yes you have to mention what is clearly inferior, that's the point of that part, kind of like you'd mention offensive solrock in his analyses (a terrible set) if they were more viable options they'd be listed in the sets. You want to show the reader we are aware of the possiblity of running such a set, but that we have proof it's an inferior option, reasons are listed in my previous post. I still want that sash mention in a/c moved to oo too.

    I already apologized about sub, read a bit fast cause I was in a hurry.

    as for this :
    I don't get your point, sorry (and ditto can very well be a sweeper if he revenge kills one that's set up)
  17. Spirit

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    Alright, I made those changes. I'm glad we came to an understanding. The seismitoad part is just there b/c unlike HP electric, HP grass isn't setup bait to ground-types, that's kinda why it's a better choice and hence forth is the main option. That part was removed though.
  18. Rohail

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    Hiya Icecream, I got some suggestions for ya:

    Overview:
    Mention how it can't do anything to Sub users (granted they have a sub up when Ditto switched in).

    Set AC:
    I'd reword the last part to "Ground-types, such as Golem, will use it as set up bait.". Reason: Ground-types aren't going to JUST setup SR into a Choice-locked Ditto, they might setup boosting moves such as Rock Polish and Swords Dance, heck, they might just attack!

    Checks and Counters:
    Mention Guts/Toxic Boost users such as Swellow, Ursaring, and Zangoose, as they can get past Ditto because they have extra attacking prowess.

    EDIT: Forgot to say "Hope I helped ^_^"
  19. Spirit

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    I don't agree with any of that. Most of those thing are already in there just not in your suggested area (I wouldn't list those Pokemon as counters per say, b/c they are very unreliable, they're just Pokemon ditto has a bit of difficulty breaking past, hazard support remedies this). The part about Ground-types is a bit redundant, as the whole part about setting up SR was just an example, there's no need to explain the obvious.

    Anyway, I did fix this up to the best of my ability, ready for the last check.
  20. Spirit

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    sorry for the bumb, but could i get the last qc check please?
  21. Hollywood

    Hollywood ᕕ┌◕ᗜ◕┐ᕗ Chugga Chugga! ᕕ┌◕ᗜ◕┐ᕗ
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    I know I already checked this, but it's been up for a while now. I figured I'll at least throw out some suggestions to make it easier for someone else to stamp it later.

    [Overview]

    • I don't really mind the opener, but I'll leave it up to whoever stamps this.
    • When you mention that against offensive teams, Ditto will likely be bulkier, I'd like to see this rephrased. The only offensive Pokemon in NU with lower base HP than Ditto are Haunter, Kadabra, Pikachu, and Mr. Mime, half of which aren't good, and the other half of which will still deal massive damage to you on a switch. In face, you can cut out the "blessing and a curse" since it will almost always be a curse. Just say something along the lines of, "Because Imposter does not copy the HP stat of the opponent, it will almost always be easier to take out than the Pokemon which it copied." Wording is up to you, just so long as it follows that idea.
    • You can probably just merge those two paragraphs as well. No need for a break there, in my opinion.

    [SET COMMENTS]

    • I like the part where you mention that you can scout out unpredictable Pokemon sets, but you can cut Ludicolo from that. It's almost always the Rain Dance sweeper set. Something like Golurk may work though, since while it may not have a lot of different coverage moves, knowing what it isn't running can help you know how to check it.

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    • I don't remember whether or not I told you to remove the mention of a Struggle war with other Dittos while you were still on the skeleton, but seeing it written out, I'd rather it be removed. That particular situation will happen maybe once every 500 battles. You can leave the IVs the same, but that particular mention is pretty much unnecessary, since if the reader uses a different spread with the same Hidden Power, they'll get the same results almost every time.
    • Change the mention of Arbok to something like Scolipede or Skuntank. Both are far more relevant in the meta, and they are both also far better.

    [Other Options]

    • "Focus Sash ensures that Ditto will never die" this makes it sound like Ditto is invincible with a Sash. I know that's not the case, and you know that's not the case. But even so, reword that so it accurately portrays how Focus Sash Ditto would function.

    Go ahead and make these changes, and I'll have someone look over it and check it one last time before stamping it.
  22. Spirit

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    Okay, done.
  23. tennisace

    tennisace another eggnog, please
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    unfortunately that intro is going to have to be rewritten to the new no-fluff standards. talk about what ditto does well, and what problems it has. should be like 6 sentences or so (a solid paragraph).
  24. Spirit

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    Oh, my bad. Didn't realize this stuff wasn't allowed anymore. I'll rewrite asap.
  25. Spirit

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    Sorry for the bump, just rewrote the overview. Hope it's okay now. =x

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