Ditto

Discussion in 'Dream World' started by AOPSUser, Jan 23, 2012.

  1. AOPSUser

    AOPSUser

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2011
    Messages:
    4,759
    Pokedex number: 132

    Abilities:

    Limber: Cannot be paralyzed.

    While Limber is normally a good ability, it is useless on Ditto.

    Imposter: Automatically transforms into opposing Pokemon unless the opposing Pokemon is behind a substitute.

    This is what makes Ditto so dangerous. A Gyarados with 6 DD's in front of you? No problem. Volcarona with 4 Quiver Dances? Whatever. As long as it's not a wall, Ditto is the best revenge killer ever. Slap on a Scarf and watch as your opponent gets swept by a +6 Attack +6 Speed Ditto-Dragonite because they carelessly DD'ed up.

    Ditto escaped the banhammer this time. Later it may not be as lucky. 5th Gen is a very offensive Generation, so Ditto is thriving. If Imposter Ditto had existed Gen 2 or 3 it would not be this good. What I want you to discuss is this: Does Ditto have counters? If so, are they foolproof counters? I know there isn't a "revenge killing" part of the definition of Uber, but if there was, would Ditto fit it?

    (It should be noted that Ditto does not copy IVs and therefore will use HP Dark as the default Hidden Power type.)
  2. idiotfrommars

    idiotfrommars schemes and plots are the same thing
    is a Smogon Media Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Tutor Alumnusis a World Cup of Pokemon defending champion

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2010
    Messages:
    1,110
    The main problem with ditto is its tiny HP stat. Even when you max it out it still won't be that bulky. Combine that with the fact that it has trouble revenge killing bulky set up sweepers, doesn't transform when the opposing Pokemon is under a substitute, and has to lock it self into one move makes it extremely predictable once it is out there.

    With that being said Ditto is a great Pokemon and can still revenge kill a large portion of the meta-game, it just has some flaws that prevent it from being really even close to overpowered in my mind.
  3. AOPSUser

    AOPSUser

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2011
    Messages:
    4,759
    Yeah, 300 HP isn't all that good, but it's still better than a lot of sweepers who don't invest HP at all. Something fun to try with Ditto is transforming into Shedinja.
  4. Vein

    Vein

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2011
    Messages:
    1,258
    Isn't this the reason why Excadrill was banned in BW OU?
  5. jrrrrrrr

    jrrrrrrr wubwubwub
    is a Tiering Contributoris a Battle Server Moderatoris a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    May 23, 2006
    Messages:
    3,168
    Something that should be mentioned in the OP is how Ditto's Impostor reacts with Hidden Power, more precisely, how it doesn't. If you transform into a mon with Hidden Power without setting your own IVs you will have the default HP instead of one you want.
  6. idiotfrommars

    idiotfrommars schemes and plots are the same thing
    is a Smogon Media Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Tutor Alumnusis a World Cup of Pokemon defending champion

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2010
    Messages:
    1,110
    Excadrill could freely switch moves, had access to rapid spin, and was able to boost its stats quite eadily. If you compare that to Ditto who is always Choice locked and is pretty much a one trick pony, you see a quite distinct difference. Not to mention that Ditto still has aditional flaws lile low HP, low PP, and not working on substitutes.
  7. DDRMaster

    DDRMaster

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2008
    Messages:
    2,670
    Ditto's useful isn't limited to revenge killing. It can come in on something like Blissey, use Wish, and then switch out to a weakened Pokemon to recover 150 HP and heal any status currently on Ditto thanks to Natural Cure.

    Ditto can also come in on something like Amoongus, Spore one of the opponent's Pokemon, and then switch out to regain one third of its health.
  8. elchupo

    elchupo

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2009
    Messages:
    367
    Imposter copies every stat bar HP, so unless you like passing base 48 HP Wishes, the first tactic is useless.
  9. No. 1 Machop Fan

    No. 1 Machop Fan

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2010
    Messages:
    217
    I use Ditto as a lead. Imposter reveals all four of the opponent's moves, and then I can switch according to those moves. If they have moves like Taunt, Stealth Rock, Toxic etc., I switch to Magic Bounce Espeon to reflect them right back. I call this combo "EspyDit".
  10. AOPSUser

    AOPSUser

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2011
    Messages:
    4,759
    Fixed. Thanks
  11. Sozane

    Sozane

    Joined:
    May 12, 2008
    Messages:
    11
    I tried doing that (though with Xatu), but I just couldn't get it to work. Everytime, Ditto ended up being dead weight for the majority of the match. Granted, it was only around 10 battles, but still. Were you using Scarf?
  12. No. 1 Machop Fan

    No. 1 Machop Fan

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2010
    Messages:
    217
    Yes. That way it can be a revenge killer/sweeper later as well, serving a double purpose.
  13. DDRMaster

    DDRMaster

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2008
    Messages:
    2,670
    I'm not sure what you're talking about. Ditto has 300 HP, so it will pass on Wishes that heal 150 HP, which will heal most uninvested sweepers at least half of their health.
  14. HardCore

    HardCore

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2010
    Messages:
    256

    The main problem's with Ditto are listed above. Another big problem with Ditto is that when revenging with Ditto you can only use one move, which most of the time can either be countered or pp stalled. Not only that, but moves like Outrage and Hi Jump Kick may result in Ditto possibly getting injured. The odds of sweeping the opponent by utilizing this set could only occur late game from my experience or against an unprepared team.
  15. The Reptile

    The Reptile Greninja Confirm for Smash
    is a Pre-Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2011
    Messages:
    920
    I think Ditto is one of the best scouts in the meta, mainly because once you transform, you know exactly what moves they have bar Hidden Power Type, which can end up being really useful information for things such as Breloom that could possible have tons of viable sets.
  16. Tobes

    Tobes Have you ever blasted off at the speed of light?
    is a Battle Server Administratoris a Site Staff Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a World Cup of Pokemon defending champion

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2010
    Messages:
    2,478
    I want to expand on using Ditto to scout movesets, because it's really cool. For example, let's take something like Deoxys-S, which can be at times a nightmare to gauge a moveset from based on Team Preview. By leading with Ditto while your opponent leads with Deoxys-S, you nearly guarantee yourself an advantage; if it's a set like Magic Coat / Taunt / Stealth Rock / Spikes, then you pretty much immediately block your opponent from setting any entry hazards or Taunting for fear of Magic Coat. And with Choice Scarf you're faster than their Deoxys-S, so if the moveset is something like Superpower / Taunt / Stealth Rock / Spikes, then you can Taunt to guarantee their hazards don't go down or lay Spikes of your own. It's actually quite a useful lead, getting information about the opponent right off the bat, and if you know more about the opponent's team than they do yours, you have an inherent advantage.

    Another example is checking Pokemon for sets that could be troublesome to you or hinder a sweep; if you're trying to sweep with LO Volcarona, knowing that your opponent is a Double Dancer Terrakion, and not Choice Scarf, allows you to go on your offensive plan more quickly with less need for sacrifice in order to scout your opponent, while if you do see a Choice set and can reasonably assume that it's Choice Scarf, then you now know that you have to manipulate your opponent into losing Terrakion in order to win with Volcarona, and can focus on that to get the Volcarona sweep going as soon as possible.
  17. Danilo

    Danilo
    is a Smogon Media Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2011
    Messages:
    2,151
    Ditto is truly an incredible Pokemon. Does your team have problems with Blazikien? If so, you can let your opponent set up their Blazikien and then revenge kill it with your Ditto. Problems with non Air Ballon Excadrill? Ditto solves that. Problem with set up sweepers? Ditto solves that. Imo, Ditto is the glue that holds DW OU together. Things like Blazikien and Excadrill are so hard to revenge kill(unless your using Breloom) and Ditto revenge kills the aforementioned mons in a heart beat.
  18. ShiroiJenkins

    ShiroiJenkins

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2011
    Messages:
    2
    Also don't forget that ditto is NOT only limited to the choice scarf. Carrying Leftovers and revenge killing sweepers is good too, if you win the speed tie, leaving, as example, a +2 attack, +2 Speed Haxorus (Ditto) in with lefties to keep its health up. Even carrying expert belt and revenging a choice banded/Specs Pokemon can deal havoc to an opponents team. The choice scarf was meant to be used solely to outspeed your opponent, instead why not add an expert belt or lefties to counter your opponents team? Ditto can be used for nearly anything.

    My favorite thing to use ditto for is countering the pokemon that's out. Say your opponent has Jolteon out, you have a Standar Hurricane Tornadus, he can outspeed, even with specs, and hit you with a super effective thunder, or you can switch to ditto and use his own volt absorb against him raising your self to a point where you can K.O his Jolteon with a Shadow Ball, or if you have the expert belt, winning the speed tie and K.Oing him with Shadow Ball, waiting to see what comes in.

    Say your opponent decides to switch a Staraptor, he knows you can't hit him with the shadow ball, but he doesn't know you have the expert belt, you could outspeed and K.O him with a Thunder, he now knows your e-belted and decides to switch to a Pokemon to counter your Jolteon(Ditto) by then you should know who you could switch into realizing his jolten and his Staraptor are gone, now you can freely switch into the Tornadus that would have been dead if not for Ditto.

    Sorry for the half-rant there, but this is solely the basics that run through my head.



    Edit: I always carry my ditto's with IVs for HP Ice just because i find it the most reliable.
  19. V0x

    V0x ah
    is an Artist Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2010
    Messages:
    1,610
    The thing is, against at +2 / +2 Haxorus (or anything for that matter) you don't want to lose the Speed tie. If you do, you're screwed. Furthermore, it has a measly 48 base HP, and 5 PP per move, meaning even if you copy a bulky sweeper to set up and countersweep, you won't actually be that bulky. Also, when you bring it in against a Choice locked Pokemon, for one if the opponent is locked into a move that hits itself super effectively, what's to stop it from switching out; and second, if they stay in and you lose the Speed tie, Ditto will still be down HP, of which it didn't have a lot in the first place.

    IMO there are too few events that let Ditto perform well without Choice Scarf that you might as well slap one on and act as a mostly catch-all revenge killer.

    That being said, I have dabbled with Red Card Ditto a bit, where if you lose the Speed tie you aren't completely screwed. However, you have to survive for it to activate, and that's not every easy unless you're facing a bulk up or Calm Mind user.
  20. Kidogo

    Kidogo

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2012
    Messages:
    462
    Yeah, my main view on ditto's problems is this:

    His main usage is as a revenge killer, due to his ability to copy stat boosts and incredibly low HP (meaning that even if he were to copy a defensive poke, he would be inferior by definition. Thus, his niche becomes as a check to set-up sweepers.

    But he can't be a reliable check unless he's guaranteed to outspeed. This almost necessitates a choice scarf, as without he is simply not reliable enough, which would mean that you have to have another reliable check in case you lose the speed tie, in which case ditto was redundant in the first place.

    And if ditto is scarfed, it is usually quite easy to counter, especially since seeing a ditto in team preview basically tells you it's scarfed and thus helps you to figure out what you need to keep alive. This is aided by the fact that most of the common set-up sweepers have STAB attacks that some common pokes 4x resist or are immune to. For example, ditto-excadrill locked into eq is beaten by every flying type (and if it uses anything but eq excadrill itself will survive and beat it), ditto-breloom locked into mach punch or ditto-terrakion into CC by chandy, etc. IMO, ditto would be much better without team preview, as if the opponent didn't know to prepare for it it could easily sweep late-game.

    As it is, ditto is really not that great in this metagame. It's niche for scouting movesets is a good one though, and that combined with its late-game sweeping capacity gives it just enough viability to warrant some use. Still not the best poke around, but it has a definite niche.

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)