Ditto

[SupremeDirt]

Just an amusing concept people might want to consider: Running the wrong abilities on other things. I have had much success with Flame Body Nitro Charge Heatran. By not running a balloon, I can bait in Ditto, who expects to easily take a Fire move. Instead, I cripple it with a Wide Lens Magma Storm, causing a bit of residual damage, switch out knowing it can't do anything as I bring in my Suicune, getting a free CM up. I run Pressure Suicune, so Ditto can't just come in and laugh at my Surf.

This gen, you may want to avoid abilities that absorb types for the mindgames. Not quite as effective if your other ability is obvious, like Pressure, but still effective.

 

[GtM]

I actually don't have much affection for Scarf Ditto. Although it guarantees that you outspeed what you transformed into, locking yourself into one move means it's surprisingly difficult to do much damage to the enemy team. Thanks to the increased usage of moves like Bulk Up and Calm Mind, many Gen V sweepers are already quite bulky when Ditto switches in, enough that OHKOs aren't any more likely than they'd be at +0/+0. Personally, I find that being able to fully utilize the copies moves is worth risking the speed tie. This isn't just theorymon, either; I tried Scarf Ditto for a bit, but found it often lacking in power and laughably easy for the foe to predict.

What do I use instead? Well, I've tried out Balloon to moderate success - having that extra immunity can be nice. Life Orb and Lefties are always good standbys to milk out a bit more power and health respectively. What I'm really looking forward to trying out, though, is Red Card. Switch in on something that'll survive a dose of its own medicine when boosted (such as Calm Mind Espeon), copy its boosts, and phaze it out all in the very same turn. You sacrifice some health to do that, true, but it's worth it: even if the copied Pokemon comes back in, Ditto won't need help obliterating it, and it's a lot harder to stop Ditto's rampage when it's not locked into a single move.

What an excellent idea. I might have to try this to stop Manaphy. :)

 

[AriadosPerson]

Here's a way to beat Ditto:

Use Zoroark.

Assuming no EVs on Ditto, Zoroark can OHKO with Dark Pulse as soon as it switches in, as long as it either has max SpA EVs and +SpA Nature or a Life Orb. Alternatively, Zoroark could also run Pursuit to KO Ditto as it flees, as Dark Pulse + Pursuit will always 2HKO without any form of investment. Zoroark can also OHKO with Pursuit assuming Life Orb, 136 Atk EVs, and neutral nature.

This works because neither Eccentric nor Transform will take effect versus a disguised Zoroark. A worst-case scenario would go something like this:

Player Z switched in Common Set-up Pokemon (Zoroark)
Player D switched in Ditto

Player D: What the...

Player D switched out Ditto
Player Z's CSuP used Pursuit

Player Z: Ha ha ha

Also, because of the vague requirements necessary for Zoroark to KO, Zoroark can very easily work this into a pre-existing set.


Well? Whaddaya think?

 

[amphouse]

Wow. Over 58,000 views.

 

[Thorhammer]

Here's a way to beat Ditto:

Use Zoroark.

Assuming no EVs on Ditto, Zoroark can OHKO with Dark Pulse as soon as it switches in, as long as it either has max SpA EVs and +SpA Nature or a Life Orb. Alternatively, Zoroark could also run Pursuit to KO Ditto as it flees, as Dark Pulse + Pursuit will always 2HKO without any form of investment. Zoroark can also OHKO with Pursuit assuming Life Orb, 136 Atk EVs, and neutral nature.

This works because neither Eccentric nor Transform will take effect versus a disguised Zoroark. A worst-case scenario would go something like this:

Player Z switched in Common Set-up Pokemon (Zoroark)
Player D switched in Ditto

Player D: What the...

Player D switched out Ditto
Player Z's CSuP used Pursuit

Player Z: Ha ha ha

Also, because of the vague requirements necessary for Zoroark to KO, Zoroark can very easily work this into a pre-existing set.


Well? Whaddaya think?

...No. Ditto doesn't just switch into Pokemon it thinks might set up. It waits for them to set up and kill something, then uses the free switch to get in and steal their boost. You'd never be able to lure Ditto like that. Besides, Ditto always runs max HP EVs; it's the only stat it actually gets any benefit out of boosting.

 

[DDRMaster]

The fact that Ditto must hold Choice Scarf to reliably revenge kill something makes it not so broken. It's way too predictable and a will be stuck on that predictable move. If it comes in on your Salamence, you know exactly which Dragon move is coming your way. If it comes in on Doryuuza (without Balloon), you know it's going to use Earthquake. You can switch accordingly.

This. Ditto come in on your boosted Garchomp/Salamence/Ononokusu? Go to Nattorei. Ulgamoth? Heatran. Zuruzukin? Any Ghost type. All you need to do to beat Ditto is make sure you can counter your own Pokemon and Ditto is extremely predictable because you know exactly what moves it has. Ditto also can't reliably come in on set up Pokemon until you KO something, due to a potential Speed tie or being at a disadvantage overall. This is why I don't think Ditto will ever become Uber.

 

[Raikaria]

This. Ditto come in on your boosted Garchomp/Salamence/Ononokusu? Go to Nattorei. Ulgamoth? Heatran. Zuruzukin? Any Ghost type. All you need to do to beat Ditto is make sure you can counter your own Pokemon and Ditto is extremely predictable because you know exactly what moves it has. Ditto also can't reliably come in on set up Pokemon until you KO something, due to a potential Speed tie or being at a disadvantage overall. This is why I don't think Ditto will ever become Uber.

Ditto still forces out your sweeper, and can switch out itself, unless it locks itself into Outrage.

Even then, you can just use an Anti-Hazard lead [Erufunn, Electric Genie], and use Focus Sash, allowing to to revenge, AND not locking yourself in.

The only downer to this is the fact that Sand is so common due to noobs using T-Tar/Hippo + Dory + 4 Random pokemon.

 

[AriadosPerson]

...No. Ditto doesn't just switch into Pokemon it thinks might set up. It waits for them to set up and kill something, then uses the free switch to get in and steal their boost. You'd never be able to lure Ditto like that. Besides, Ditto always runs max HP EVs; it's the only stat it actually gets any benefit out of boosting.

Ookay.

Use Nasty Plot/Claw Sharpen/Calm Mind to set-up and kill something without losing your Illusion either psychologically or physically, have Ditto switch in, then kill it.

Also, with +Atk nature, max Atk EVs, and Life Orb, Zoro has a 75% shot of killing Ditto with Pursuit as it switches out, a guarunteed kill with hazard/Sandstorm support.

Or, if you boosted with Claw Sharpen, you don't need a +Atk nature.

 

[samster712]

so just to clarify since my friend called me wrong:
Eccentric:
Copies:
pokemon characteristics and all IVs and EVs and stat changes EXCEPT HP is that correct?

 

[CTNC]

so just to clarify since my friend called me wrong:
Eccentric:
Copies:
pokemon characteristics and all IVs and EVs and stat changes EXCEPT HP is that correct?

Yes... Enough said.

 

[Emperor]

Ookay.

Use Nasty Plot/Claw Sharpen/Calm Mind to set-up and kill something without losing your Illusion either psychologically or physically, have Ditto switch in, then kill it.

That's probably the only way it would work out with zoroark since eccentric fails on illusion (found on research thread) but...not losing an illusion while trying to set up is kind of hard imo :/

 

[Vanna]

Mischevious Heart + Encore + Ditto = Ultimate win.

 

[DDRMaster]

Mischevious Heart + Encore + Ditto = Ultimate win.

This is why you switch out when you're Encored.

 

[Flareon]

What I'm curious about is what happens if you try and transform into an already tradnformed pokemon. Here's a scenario: you have a Flygon out and your opponent sends in Ditto (they are now transformed). If you send in YOUR Ditto, would it transform (like it did in the old gens) or would it fail (like in the new gens)?

 

[Emperor]

What I'm curious about is what happens if you try and transform into an already tradnformed pokemon. Here's a scenario: you have a Flygon out and your opponent sends in Ditto (they are now transformed). If you send in YOUR Ditto, would it transform (like it did in the old gens) or would it fail (like in the new gens)?

I believe it fails

 

[FerrariCUBU]

So if Eccentric Ditto @ Choice Scarf switches in on Pokemon X @ Choice Scarf will there be a speed tie?

EDIT: Nevermind, I checked the research thread and Eccentric does not copy Choice item boosts. So yes, there would be a speed tie.

 

[Wafflez]

Yah if you switch into a Sub/Transformed Ditto it fails.You stay as ditto.

 

[alexwolf]

Wobbuffet is pretty much equally powerful in all tiers, because its function is exactly as powerful no matter what tier you use it in. That doesn't stop it from being Uber.

and also gaining a free turn in ubers is way more dangerous than gaining a free turn in any other tier because ubers is a pretty fast and powerful enviroment...that's why wobuffet was uber...because it could grant these free turns pretty easily!!!!

 

[SupremeDirt]

and also gaining a free turn in ubers is way more dangerous than gaining a free turn in any other tier because ubers is a pretty fast and powerful enviroment...that's why wobuffet was uber...because it could grant these free turns pretty easily!!!!

No, Wobbuffet's performance in the uber tier is irrelevant to its tier placement.

 

[TorchicBlaziken]

No - the fact that Ditto will likely not be broken in UU or NU will have no impact on his tiering. People play UU or NU to avoid the 'same old faces' that inhabit OU so it would be completely ridiculous to allow Ditto, a Pokemon who will probably be very near the top of the usage charts. UU and NU are decided by usage, it's that simple really.

From the number of people that have suggested this, it wouldn't be Farfetch'd if there formed a group of people that play the lower tiers and allow Ditto. It would certainly gain a small following.

 

[No. 1 Machop Fan]

Not sure if this has been mentioned, but I just witnessed a battle where a, Eccentric Ditto failed to transform while its opponent had a Sub up! I guess that means Sub blocks Transform?

 

[voodoo pimp]

Not sure if this has been mentioned, but I just witnessed a battle where a, Eccentric Ditto failed to transform while its opponent had a Sub up! I guess that means Sub blocks Transform?

Correct. This is a new Gen V change, as far as I know.

 

[JSND]

sub sweeper is quite rare though
too bad. Ditto's real weakpoint is predictability. IMO since we know its move AND how it works. yeah

 

[PooF]

This. Ditto come in on your boosted Garchomp/Salamence/Ononokusu? Go to Nattorei. Ulgamoth? Heatran. Zuruzukin? Any Ghost type. All you need to do to beat Ditto is make sure you can counter your own Pokemon and Ditto is extremely predictable because you know exactly what moves it has. Ditto also can't reliably come in on set up Pokemon until you KO something, due to a potential Speed tie or being at a disadvantage overall. This is why I don't think Ditto will ever become Uber.

This works in theory, but note that most of the sweepers usually attempt to set up and sweep towards late game, and at that point your Nattorei/Heatran might already be down or at least weakened to the point where ditto can easily break through them (we're taking about boosted moves here after all).

 

[CanadiEntei]

What happens to Ditto if it's Eccentric'd target knows Hidden Power? Ditto's HP type or the targets HP type? Should Ditto's IV's be set for certain Hidden Power like Dragon (rare Hidden Power Kingdra or the Ulga-moth) ?