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Gen 2 Do I sort of know what I'm doing in GSC?

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by NixHex, May 7, 2014.

  1. NixHex

    NixHex No excuses
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    Hi guys, my name is NixHex. I'm one of the older active users on this site (27) so I was 13-14 when GSC hit the US. However, I missed out on the online competitive battling communities / (eventually Smogon) until DPP. In that light, I've always been kinda bummed that I missed the first three gens. When RBY got a beta ladder on Pokemon Showdown!, I was very excited and I go through bouts of RBY because there actually is a somewhat active ladder. I dabbled in ADV a couple of years ago on PO, and I definitely want to play more of that... but my unexplored avenue is GSC! I never played a competitive GSC match simply because I didn't want to ask around in whatever irc channels, and there weren't very many avenues to play GSC.

    However, this all changed last night when I decided to bite the bullet and make a team. After watching several gen2oubeta replays yesterday and being frustrated about how bad some of the battles were (basically people who were used to BW and XY mechanics and were "discovering" the old mechanics), I wanted to apply all the meta knowledge (not experience) that I had gained over the years by reading the Smogon analyses and that article by Borat, as well as an article I myself wrote on in-game GSC mechanics.

    I knew the obvious stuff: CurseLax, DrumLax, LkLax, FireBlastLax; Suicune, Raikou, Blissey, Misdreavus, Spikes user, the Growth Eeveelutions, "lol GSC = pure stall", *PHAZING*, Toxic, Rest-Talk ... you get the point. But I knew I didn't truly understand the meta because I never actually played it. So I made a team using all staples, then asked in one of my favorite hidden rooms on PS! if anyone was interested since old gens had like 5 people in it. A user named Secret.One decided to do some research of his own (seriously, what a trooper!), and was ready with a team in 45 minutes. I saved some of our replays; I'll post them in chronological order so you can see how our playing and understanding of game mechanics developed.

    http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen2oubeta-117406130
    http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen2oubeta-117408935
    http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen2oubeta-117411522

    So I need your help... do my opponent and I appear to have at least a rudimentary understanding of the GSC metagame? Are there any improvements or criticisms you have for me? Blast away, I won't take anything personally. Will you fight me?

    Thanks for reading this novel of a post, and thanks in advance for the help. And seriously though, if you are an expert and want a friendly battle, please find me on PS!, I'm on all the time.

    edit: I know how long it takes to watch a GSC battle so if you're strapped for time, the third one might be the best to watch.
    Last edited: May 7, 2014
  2. Bedschibaer

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    If you are looking for gsc battles on PS!, there is the oldgens channel a couple of competent gsc players frequent, feel free to join from time to time. The channel is pretty active at times, no wonder you aren't going to find many matches when it's dead hours, try it in the more active hours of the day.

    I'm not a big fan of a couple of things on your team(s), like Toxic Zapdos and quite alot of your plays, but you need to play to get into the meta and work out things yourself (like that fire punch on amphy is standard). I'm not going to write a complete list of things i'd do different, because someone else is probably going to anyways and i watched the replays real quick once without paying alot attention.
    NixHex likes this.
  3. MoxieInfinite

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    Yea, old gens is the place to if anything, though the players there arent spl quality, lets just say that(except for beds ofc). I'd love to test teams with you and talk gsc in general if you wanna, while im not the best, i feel like i know a decent amount.

    Regarding skill and teams and whatever, there are a few good guides available. For new players, royal flush's is good place to go, but if you wanna go advanced, borat is your guy. I'll provide links when i can, on phone atm.
  4. NixHex

    NixHex No excuses
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    Thank you guys for the responses! I'll be in the room more often now, looking forward to chatting it up.
  5. Jorgen

    Jorgen World's Strongest Fairy
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    Ok, I'll be real. And overly detailed should you choose to open the spoilers.

    GAME 1:
    Show Hide
    The first game was pretty atrocious. Leaving Forr in on Amphy is bad obviously, not just because of Fire Punch (which I wouldn't say is standard, but then again, neither is Ampharos), but because you don't even want to be taking a Thunder. I don't know why you brought Gengar into Ampharos either, that just seems like a bad play. Gengar can do nothing to Amphy apart from sleep and boom, which are better used when not expected rather than telegraphed. I guess you were trying to catch a Rhydon or Zapdos on the switch? Still too early in the game though, and you get punished with a Twave (which you heal off, but still, Gengar cannot be paralyzed). Also, always Roar Missy the first turn, that way you get to avoid double-protect bullshit. Zapdos set is weird, it really needs Hidden Power to truly pose a threat to Grounds, otherwise its Ground immunity doesn't mean much. And if it does have Hidden Power, then you're using a fairly mediocre non-Rest Zapdos; I'd rather load up on Screens than have some weird temporary Spikes-shuffling thing. Your best bet is just Sleep Talk, though, it's standard for a reason: it keeps it tough to take down, constantly available, and therefore more capable of abusing its almost universally good matchup chart.

    Your opponent played weird too, and probably should not have lost that game (although your surprise Snorlax EQ might have had something to do with that, but then again, you showed it vs Umbreon before...). Ampharos is not standard and something you need to put effort into using rather than slapping on a team. Curse Umbreon is just... what? It didn't even seem to have Baton Pass, which is the only reason you would use Curse Umbreon (and it's a bad reason). Also, EQ on Marowak, 100% accuracy >>> breaking Sub (which nobody uses). He tried setting up Curse Skarm on Suicune (PROTIP: CurseSkarm is not a sweeper, stop trying to treat it like a win condition unless the endgame really is that simplified), and he just kinda sacs whole team for no reason. Why let Missy die there? Why let Marowak die to Blissey? Umbreon? He had a 6-4 gyro advantage in an obvious PP stall endgame, with Ampharos and Marowak as possible win conditions (or at the very least, forcing you to go to dedicated walls and waste PP), and he just blew it. Oh, and he needs a Snorlax, you really shouldn't get cute with Lax-less teams because it just ends up inferior.


    GAME 2:
    Show Hide
    Second game is hard to really get a feel for because you're using very similar teams and are likely getting used to each other's weird playstyles, so what is a silly play or silly set against an unknown opponent may very well become a good. Nonetheless, it's still p bad. Don't just let things randomly die. Sac'ing Forry to Toxic Missy on turn 5 is not worth it! Scout out the opposing team and determine if you really need that Toxic before you do it, especially since Forry could save your game later with Explosion! Also it goes without saying that using Hyper Beam in GSC like your opponent did is bad, I mean there's some gimmicks like Hyper Beam DrumZard but that is more a fuckin'-around gyro than a tourney gyro. Toxic Raikou is a strange set, I mean it works because Raikou is a Snorlax magnet, but on the other hand it gives Nidoking free reign. Hidden Power is a much more certain bet. Curse Ttar is kinda lame, I'd advise against using it and instead using a Pursuit set. Why leave Raikou in on +1 Ttar? That was silly. Your team this game was very vulnerable to an opposing Lax. Literally any Curselax 6-0s you (although ironically, it was your Snorlax that basically 6-0'd him... well, if you hadn't sac'd Forry, that is). Also I don't know what was happening in Bliss vs. Zapdos (why was Bliss just letting itself die vs. Zap?), but Drill Peck is not usually a good move. Its only real use is hitting Blissey, as Egg is covered by HP Ice. This is one example of the thing I talked about at the start of this ramble, where the suboptimal play might actually be better because you're playing a weird opponent.


    GAME 3:
    Show Hide
    I'm already pretty exhausted and the first five turns make me want to scream. Suffice to say it's more of the same (random sac'ing things to psong, weird sets, P.odd still needs a Snorlax, that sort of thing).


    TL;DR: No, you guys do not know what you're doing. At all. Protips: Use standard sets and mons until you know better, keep things alive and don't sac random shit for no reason. Gyros are delicious.

    While you're learning, you can use the team below. It has lots of Explosions so it's really easy to apply pressure to even the best of GSCers without even necessarily trying, while it's still got defensive answers for everything to allow you to check things normally and not just be totally ridiculous (which is part of why the Explosions on this team are so scary, you could just as easily NOT Explode because your team is robust enough to play conservatively). Just be sure to play smart and not let things die unless you get something (e.g., a fairly certain Explosion kill) for it.

    a team:
    Show Hide

    • Zapdos: Thunder/HP Ice/Rest/Sleep Talk (this is pretty much set in stone, I can't honestly endorse a variant that wouldn't actually make Zapdos worse for this team)
    • Gengar: Thunder/Ice Punch/Explosion/Dbond (4th can be hypnosis or dynamicpunch too. Thunder can be replaced by Tbolt as well, although I feel like your main spammable move is Ice Punch, so why not go big with your secondary move?)
    • Exeggutor: Psychic/Giga Drain/Sleep Powder/Explosion (Stun Spore, HP Fire, Leech Seed (maybe paired with Substitute) are things to keep in back of your mind if you feel like you need a change to Egg's set)
    • Cloyster: Surf/Toxic/Explosion/Spikes (hp electric, ice beam (maybe even blizzard if you're going to bother with an ice move???), clamp, icy wind all possible over Toxic, Surf can also be replaced by Screech in conjunction with Clamp if you feel like gimmicking)
    • Snorlax: Double-Edge/Earthquake/Curse/Rest (feel free to play around with the EQ slot, but I find EQ shores up Ttar weakness and hits Missy on switch, both of which this team needs. I wouldn't go too crazy with the Lax set on this team, you need him to be your glue, not a non-Rest surprise offensive set).
    • Steelix: Earthquake/Rock Slide/Curse/Roar (Explosion over Rock Slide is possible. Body Slam could also go somewhere.)

    leftovers on all of them, of course
    Last edited: May 7, 2014
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  6. NixHex

    NixHex No excuses
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    The candid advice you gave is precisely what i asked for, so I appreciate it. Also you really pointed out something that proves that I am a "new gens" player -- I have very poor prediction skills so I rely on revenge kills to win games for me (gen 4 explosion spam), hence all the sacrifices I made. This is okay in later gens especially against offensive teams where things are just less bulky with the EV cap. It's plain stupid to play suicidal in GSC where Stat Exp is maxed and things are bulky enough to switch into attacks and not get 2HKOed by everything. That is why I instantly regretted choosing Explosion against that Missy when I knew I could have just let it take some more toxic damage, and that my spikes were already laid and there was nothing to spin. Of course there were many other mistakes but that was the most egregious of them all haha. Looking back and watching the replays again and again, there were a lot of poor plays and cringe-worthy moments, and getting schooled by someone with years of experience such as yourself is just what I need to become a better player.

    Thanks Jorgen for the help and for the team. It's especially nice because as you said I can play aggressively (I hesitate to say offensively) given that Explosion is just so dang powerful, while I still have the bulk of everything besides Gengar that lets me be more conservative and stay alive. In gratitude for your assistance, I'm going to give that second GP check on your Explosion article. Hopefully I learn something in the process. Oh and I don't GP anything anymore so the fact that I'm even lifting my fingers to do so just shows my enthusiasm for mastering this meta.
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  7. Mr.E

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    jorgen what the fuck is a gyro

    also Drill Peck Zapdos is fine if not uncommon

    Shit not dying to everything is where GSC gets the "loleverythingisstall" treatment. I mean yeah, even the most offensive GSC team is "stall" compared to offensive shit in Gen 4 and beyond but that's just a function of the game mechanics. There's no stupid 100% accurate 120 base attacks, or 140 base attacks, and all your would-be offensive threats have 20-50% more defenses. The difference is subtle between even the most offensive and defensive of teams, which is why GSC is awesome because you have to actually work for incremental advantages instead of just throwing a fucking Dragon out there and automatically killing something (without suicide).
    Last edited: May 8, 2014
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  8. Crystal_

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    I suggest you come to play to PO too. Competition around is better overall, and as far as I know there are a few bugs in PS!
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  9. NixHex

    NixHex No excuses
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    Not to mention a ladder that can get me a match in 5-10 minutes. Thanks guys, I'll send some time on there.
  10. magic9mushroom

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    Seconding this.
  11. Texas Cloverleaf

    Texas Cloverleaf meh
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    [​IMG]

    Lose the sauce and the onions and I agree its delicious
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  12. magic9mushroom

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    You both seem to make some dumb plays - Forretress into Missy (?!), spamming Roar without Spikes down (what does this accomplish?), etc. Marowak into Zapdos is outright suicide unless you know for a fact it doesn't HP. You also didn't use any prediction; if he went to Blissey the last 5 times you brought in any of your Legends, he probably will this time too, so go to Lax at the same time instead of Thundering Blissey for no damage and having to switch Lax into Toxic.

    Blissey is not a staple; Hidden Power Legends are. GSC is not pure stall; offense does, however, require more work than "bring in a sweeper on something that it counters, Dragon Dance on the switch, win". Toxicing stuff, as you both learned, is ineffective unless backed up with actual attacks, because loleverything runs Rest and the Toxic effect is lost on switching. Sleep Talk + Roar on the same set doesn't work very well in GSC (Roar is coded to not work if it goes first); Roar not failing when it went first was a bug in Showdown.

    On basic teambuilding: almost every good team in GSC has Snorlax, a legendary Electric (Zapdos or Raikou), and two decent switch-ins for Lax - one that can handle EQ Lax and can take a hit from DrumLax, and one that can handle FB Lax (and because you have two, LK Lax is usually stopped as well). From (roughly) most offensive to most defensive you're looking at Steelix/Forretress/Skarmory for EQ Lax and Gengar/Rhydon/Tyranitar/Misdreavus/Umbreon/Miltank for FB Lax.
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  13. Bedschibaer

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    Yea the gen 2 ou ladder is probably the second or third least active one after gen 4 uu and lolcap on ps. For gsc PO is simply the sim with the better support, activity and mechanic wise. Back when i laddered the oldgens i often spent whole nights searching for gsc matches and ended up having 3-4 in total, so whenever the ladder is dead the oldgens room is your best bet, whenever i catch you online i can list a couple of the competent gscers that frequent it. I also hold minitours in there from time to time, so yea, feel free to pm me when you see me.
  14. JollyJoeJames

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    I don't think GSC is that active on PO either. Better than PS, but that's not saying much.
  15. Bedschibaer

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    http://sim.smogon.com:8080/Stats/2014-05/gen2oubeta.txt
    201 rated battles last month on PS!
    http://stats.pokemon-online.eu/GSC OU/index.html
    220 rated battles last month on PO.
    Looks like only a slight difference, right? Considering that PS! has a roughly 10 times bigger userbase than PO that is a big percentage difference. On top of that you can see who is playing gsc on PO because of the way the simulator works, while you can't on PS! Go on PO and you will get challenged when you are in a smaller tier like gsc. Not to mention that the usage stats i provided show alot about the general player quality on both sims.
  16. Isa

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  17. NixHex

    NixHex No excuses
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    aaah the attitudes flying around. Let's chill guys. PO is indeed a much better way to find GSC matches. I can actually leave find battle running for a few minutes and usually find a match in that time. I haven't played in a while, sort of lost interest in GSC in favor of XY ubers and real life endeavors, but I might get back into it soon.
  18. Bedschibaer

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    Oh yea, i was actually already wondering why my link had such a small number, that's what i get for rushing posts with my phone browser. Proves my point drastically further.
  19. MoxieInfinite

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    I support this due to the fact that I just saw Curse Blissey.
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  20. magic9mushroom

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    Rhydon takes a lot more from Earthquake than Steelix (33-39% vs. 27-31% for an unboosted Lax EQ), so it has a harder time switching in on EQ Lax (FireLax is mostly covered by Gengar). Also, it's weak to Ice instead of neutral like Steelix, so it can't pressure Hidden Power Ice Raikou the way Steelix can (Exeggutor covers Hidden Power Water Raikou). Basically it's a matter of the Steelix/Gengar/Exeggutor trio having amazing synergy - it's the most common offensive core in existence.
  21. Jorgen

    Jorgen World's Strongest Fairy
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    The Ice weakness gives you 3 Ice weaks and is the #1 thing annoying about Rhydon over Steelix on that team. Gengar is actually the biggest worry with regard to having that many Ice weaks, as you always can fall back on a ST Lax to cover HP Ice Electrics pretty nicely. Rhydon's other shortcomings relative to Steelix are pretty minor by comparison and made up for by the fact that Rhydon hits like a truck whereas Steelix hits like a weenie.
  22. magic9mushroom

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    I mean, Rhydon's hardly bad, but it doesn't fit too well with that team.

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