Do we really need an NFE tier? (and a NU idea)

[X-Act]

Ever since we put all NFE Pokemon to be allowed in UU, the NFE tier has lost its scope. In the freshly-issued UU list, Chansey, a Pokemon that was previously in the NFE tier, is now in the UU tier. Rhydon and Hippopotas (!) were also quite close to achieve this.

The NFE tier really is useless, and hence, it should just be deleted and all Pokemon in it should go to NU.

Is there a reason why the NFE tier still exists? Please enlighten me if there is. Otherwise I'm going to move all Pokemon in it to NU.

 

[Toothache]

I've always maintained that NFEs should be treated as seperate Pokemon to their evolved forms. With that in mind, we do not need an NFE tier. Some NFEs are good enough to be in UU, most are better left in NU, but no, we do not need a seperate tier for NFEs.

 

[Veedrock]

Unless it's used enough to warrant an analysis (Rhydon is a great example), I really don't think they should be physically included in the NU list on-site. Maybe it's for convenience's sake, but if I'm looking through the NU list to make a team and find 200+ near-useless pokemon that don't even have an analysis, it's going to be a hassle and annoying to deal with. It doesn't help that many of the NFEs will have FEs in NU too, making the double inclusion redundant and pointless. "Oh hey, I can use Smoochum! No wait, there's Jynx."

I'd be all for it if it wouldn't needlessly clutter the tier list. If an NFE made UU via usage, move it there (like it should be). I think everything else (unless it has an analysis) should stay in NFE (broken record, but only for the sake of convenience). NFEs being allowed in NU is a given; I really don't think they need to be moved there "so they're NU."

I suppose I'm indifferent on the issue since it "doesn't matter," though I prefer the seperation for the above reason.

 

[Caelum]

I'm with Veedrock that it's a purely aesthetic issue. Most NFEs (with some exceptions like Chansey, Porygon2 etc) are never going to be used because even NFEs of top tiers OUs still usually are poor in comparison to relatively weak fully-evolved UU/NU Pokemon.

The only two reasons I could see to distinguish them is for the convenience pointed out by Veedrock. However, to me, the concern over what's "commonly" used seems reduced because of Doug's usage statistics. If I want to know what I need to prepare for in a tier, it's much more effective to just look at Doug's stats. The other reason being that from a site-presentation perspective, I think distinguishing between UU/NU & NFE is useful because of this policy which only allows certain NFEs to have analysis. It would be a nice way to distinguish which Pokemon get analysis and which don't; again this isn't a big issue.

As you can see, my reasons are purely aesthetic rather than based on something objective so I'm not going to really care what your decision is either way. From a technical standpoint, I support your position X-Act because the list is technically frivolous. However, I can see some presentation / aesthetic uses of keeping them distinct.

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As a side note, our tier system probably does need a ban list for NU; but it's a bit dumb to go through the whole suspect process for that. Eh, I might make a thread and do theorybans for NU with discussion / experience like the way we did the old BL since there are some obvious cases but I guess that can be dealt with later down the road since NU isn't a priority at all heh. I'll talk to Jump some time or something.

Edit: Forgot to thank X-Act for his hard work. He really does quite a bit for the site and doesn't get enough appreciation for it ^__^

 

[X-Act]

Well, all NFEs except for those in higher tiers are allowed in all metagames as a given.

I can kinda see the point of the NFE tier existing solely to make NU look less cluttered. However, I have a slightly better idea.

I'd divide NU in two: 'Little Used' (LU) would be those Pokemon that would be used in the 'Neverused' metagame (as defined by the usual OU algorithm), while 'Never Used' (NU) would be those Pokemon that would be so crappy that they wouldn't even be used in the 'Neverused' metagame. Of course, the 'Neverused' metagame would then be called 'the Little Used metagame' instead.

This makes sense because the Pokemon that are used often in this metagame wouldn't actually be never used - only those that wouldn't be used often are. Let's face it - it doesn't make sense to make Rhydon NFE and Luvdisc NU if the former is actually used a lot more than the latter in the 'Little Used' metagame.

Any NFEs that are so bad that they're not used in any metagame (and that hence don't deserve to have a Smogon analysis of their own) would thus go to NU.

EDIT: In this respect, even Pokemon like Luvdisc that aren't used not even in Little Used should have a Smogon analysis, lol.

 

[jrrrrrrr]

Since NFEs are allowed in every tier, why wouldn't we just keep the system as it is now? It's not like being NFE bans you from anything, we should just treat them on a case by case basis. I guess except for a few exceptions, they are all NU anyways. My question is: what is the harm in calling Chansey both NFE and UU? NFE isn't a competitive metagame anyways, it really doesn't affect the tier placement of anything else.

I would personally keep them as NFE, that way we can separate them from things like Luvdisc that are also awful but actually have analyses. Adding a note that says "All NFE pokemon except <chansey rhydon etc> are NU as well" without having tons of things on a list, where only a few have analyses seems like it would be easier to keep track of than just a huge list.

I think this is more of a concern for finding base stats than movesets, imo. I could kind of assume that Rhydon has the same or similar effective movesets when compared to Rhyperior, but that potential difference in speed could cost me a UU match.

 

[X-Act]

I personally don't mind what happens with NFE. I wanted this thread to clarify what the purpose of the NFE tier is more than anything else.

It seems like it is just a 'placeholder' tier, sort of, just so NU does not end up with bajillions of Pokemon. Which, in my opinion, is not much of a concern. Really, who cares if NU has 300 Pokemon? It just means that there are 300 Pokemon that are useless in all metagames, be them Standard, Under Used or Little Used... which, let's face it, is true.

As the above paragraph hints at, a Pokemon being NU for me means "it is useless, and so it is never used". Which is why I suggested that NU should be divided into two tiers:

1. LU, which contains the Pokemon that are actually used in the metagame containing all Pokemon outside Uber, OU, BL and UU. I'm calling this metagame "the Little Used metagame";
2. NU, which contains the Pokemon that not even used in the Little used metagame.

I would like a few comments about this idea of the NU division into LU and NU, be them positive or negative.

 

[Caelum]

I like that idea X-Act. It's really just an organizational issue and your idea would resolve it.

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

What you are suggesting is not really a 'division' at all, it is just stating the fact that there will be room for another tier beyond the third one, whatever we end up naming it.

Your argument supporting this also doesn't make any logical sense. You're saying that NU should contain Pokemon that are 'never used', but if that were true there would be no need for such a tier as nobody would play it. Obviously in any tier containing at least six different Pokemon (don't stress this point literally, I'm not saying that a tier with six Pokemon is feasible, this is just purely hypothetical) there are going to be useful and viable Pokemon to make a team with. What you're suggesting would lead to an almost indefinite regression until no Pokemon are left at all.

I am in favor of the eventual implementation of (at least) four balanced tiers btw, but I'm sure you can see the ambiguity in your above reasoning. The same could've been said about the new UU before it was implemented: 'to me UU means 'it is not very useful, and so it isn't commonly used'. However this new tier will have commonly used Pokemon so let's split it into two'. It is just a roundabout and awkward way of achieving the same thing by arguing semantics.

 

[X-Act]

You're saying that NU should contain Pokemon that are 'never used', but if that were true there would be no need for such a tier as nobody would play it.

Lemmiwinks, a tier is not a metagame: you're confusing the two terms. In my opinion, the NU tier is the garbage that nobody uses in any metagame. That doesn't mean they're not legal in any metagame - they are indeed legal to use in ALL metagames! Nobody is stopping you from using Hoppip or Ledian in Standard, or Zigzagoon or Delcatty in UU. Notice that I'm mentioning both NFEs and FEs here - to me, though, there isn't any distinction between NFEs and FEs if they're both useless in all metagames, just like I wouldn't distinct Scyther from Poliwrath in UU since they're both used a lot there.

That is why I'm suggesting the removal altogether of the NFE tier. If Combusken, Tentacool, Luvdisc and Furret are all useless, then they should be all in one tier: NU, even though some are NFEs and some are not.

 

[darkie]

I don't mind the proposal either. It would certainly help to streamline things a bit.

 

[X-Act]

Another suggestion would be this.

NU would be the Pokemon that are 'Overused' in the Neverused metagame (pun not intended!).

The NFE tier would be replaced by a 'Crap', 'Horrible', 'Awful', 'Shit', or (my favourite) 'Unter' tier, containing all the crap that nobody uses in any metagame. Unter means 'down below' in German, whereas Uber means 'up above' in German - seems to be a fitting name! Basically NFE would be extended also to stuff like Luvdisc, Farfetch'd, Dustox, etc.

The above is actually exactly what I suggested earlier, with the following name changes: what I'm calling 'NU' here, I called 'LU' before, and what I'm calling 'Unter' here, I called it 'NU' before. We could also call them 'LU' and 'Crap', or whatever we like - I'm not that good with names. :(

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

Lemmiwinks, a tier is not a metagame: you're confusing the two terms. In my opinion, the NU tier is the garbage that nobody uses in any metagame. That doesn't mean they're not legal in any metagame - they are indeed legal to use in ALL metagames! Nobody is stopping you from using Hoppip or Ledian in Standard, or Zigzagoon or Delcatty in UU. Notice that I'm mentioning both NFEs and FEs here - to me, though, there isn't any distinction between NFEs and FEs if they're both useless in all metagames, just like I wouldn't distinct Scyther from Poliwrath in UU since they're both used a lot there.

That is why I'm suggesting the removal altogether of the NFE tier. If Combusken, Tentacool, Luvdisc and Furret are all useless, then they should be all in one tier: NU, even though some are NFEs and some are not.

I'm well aware that a tier is not necessarily a metagame, but in the case of NU it certainly would be. If NU is defined to be the bottom-of-the-barrel tier containing all the remaining junk, then that tier IS the metagame in and of itself, as you cannot use any Pokemon that are not on that tier list.

By taking your proposal to its logical conclusion, we would end up with as many as a dozen tiers until we ended up with a final tier (metagame) that nobody played or nobody could play (nothing left). I'm sure that you didn't intend to imply anything so absurd, so I'm assuming that you just wanted to suggest the implementation of two extra tiers below UU instead of one. In that case your proposal isn't really a proposal at all, it is simply the regurgitation of a policy that has appeared both logical and obvious to many people, including me, for quite some time now. In fact, we have been proponents of it ever since Obi's initial proposal over one year ago.

And as far as I know, there has never been any such thing as an NFE tier on Smogon in any shape or form, at least not in the D/P era. Please show me where this is or has been the case if I'm wrong. You can't remove something that isn't there to begin with.

EDIT: @ your above post: so you're now suggesting five balanced metagames? Nothing wrong with that of course, if there is the demand for one, but we're getting way ahead of ourselves here. The third tier hasn't even reached ladder status yet. Or am I misunderstanding? This is why I think we should scrap this ridiculous 'NU/UU' terminology and stick to something like 'Tier 1 / Tier 2' for the time being.

 

[Imran]

http://www.smogon.com/dp/tiers/ -- So NFE does exist, or am I taking you too literally. Re-reading, you could have meant "NFE" was never played, in which you would be correct.

I like your final proposal X-Act. It is nice and simple and gives us a place to "put all the crap" without having to worry about it. He isn't suggesting 5 balanced metagames, Lemmiwinks, Unter would not necessarily be a balanced metagame, more a place to put everything else, from say Farfetch'd down to Caterpie and friends. I'm sure people could play it if they wanted, hell if there was enough calling for it we could create a tier out if it, but that is not necessary.

As for this terminology, I don't really want to go to Tier 1 / Tier 2 etc... It seems just a little too charchterless. Although it is practical, I think a sensible middleground can be found. I wouldn't mind seeing something along the lines of: Uber, OU (or Standard), BL1, UU, BL2, LU, Unter. OU, UU and LU would all be tiers that we create through whichever assigned process, desinged to be balanced. I labelled the BLs 1 and 2, simply because they are just Ban Lists, and will likely be very small. We could potentially call Uber BL1 and the other Ban Lists BL 2 and 3, but again, I don't want our tiering system to completely lose it's character. I named LU (Lesser Used) so, because it would seem silly to have a "Never Used" tier above another tier. Unter would simply be "where we put everything else."

This prevents us from having a huge NU tier, and allows us to create a balanced metagame, with it's own proper tier list. Any Pokemon that don't make that tier list probably won't be worth using anyway, simply because limited movepools will result in there being few usable tactics left.

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

http://www.smogon.com/dp/tiers/

Sure it's 'called' a tier, but that's meaningless as it isn't really a tier at all. It implies nothing in the way of a ranking whatsoever, it is just some makeshift place to throw in anything that doesn't have an analysis. If we're suggesting to get rid of that 'formality' altogether then I agree 100%, as should everybody else. That's how I read X-Act's OP, and I don't see the complication here at all. That should've been done three months ago, if not much earlier.

As for the tier proposal, it is not that I necessarily disagree with anything being said, it is just that I don't see what the proposal is suggesting that is any different to what we were going to do in the first place. All it seems to be is a proposal on what to 'name' the tiers, which obviously needs to be addressed, but let's take that for what it is and not dress it up as something that has additional meaning to our tiering policy.

 

[Veedrock]

I see where Lemmiwinks is coming from and it became evident in the Stark thread; by seperating "NU" into LU and NU, despite being the same tier (or maybe NU is just a pile of "tierless" pokemon), people will want to end up seperating them into 2 different metagames. Would we do that? (I'm against it to be quite honest; people can suck it up if they can't use Delibird competitively)

Aside from the "split the metagame" ideal that'll likely never die down, I'm not against the split for convenience purposes, especially if it's usage based. Neverused can essentially just be tierless pokemon, unable to make ANY real tier list. However, I must disapprove of the name "Little Used;" it reminds me of and can be associated with Little Cup.

 

[obi]

I don't see a need to define the bottom tier just yet.

We start out with OU and uber. We decided "hey! there are tons of Pokemon not being used. Let's make UU.". So we make UU and BL. Now we still think there are tons of Pokemon not being used, so we make what would now be called NU and ??? (I've been calling it Limbo, but I'm not stuck on any particular name, and I actually prefer the idea of BL1, BL2...). There is a desire for people to create a lower playable tier, so we should do that. Once we've spent enough time crafting that tier (3-6 months seems reasonable, but again, this just a ballpark figure, I'll leave it up to the people in charge of the "NU / LU" test to decide the exact length), we'll have another ban list and another playable tier. At that point, if there is still more desire to create another even lower playable tier, then we should make it. If not, then there is no need to.

 

[X-Act]

Actually that's exactly why I want to create the bottom tier Obi - so that it is easily seen which Pokemon would be legal in the bottommost new metagame if and when people decide to implement it.

 

[obi]

Sorry I was unclear. What I meant was, I don't see the need to define the number of tiers we'll be using. I don't see why we need to say "OK, we're going to create three more competitive tiers, and then stop" right now. I didn't mean the bottom tier for right now.

 

[X-Act]

That's fine - I didn't intend for this to have exactly three competitive metagames. What I'm saying is that if and when people would want a fourth metagame using the crap that's left from the others, they immediately know what Pokemon they can choose from the bottommost tier.

For example, currently, the bottommost tier would be a combination of the 'NU' and 'NFE' ones, since there are only two metagames. I'm suggesting combining these two tiers into one, to be called 'Unter'. Then if people want a third metagame, they can conveniently see which Pokemon are legal in this third metagame just by looking in the 'Unter' tier and start immediately from there. After this metagame is settled, this process can be repeated for the fourth, fifth, sixth, etc. metagames, as much as people want.

 

[chaos]

The reason for NFE is so people can filter out unevolved junk in the Pokemon listings.

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

I think that anything that gets enough use to be in a "tier", whether or not it's evolved, should get an analysis, and as such, anything that gets an analysis should have a page, similar to how Chansey has always had one throughout, and Scyther has one even now.

 

[Syberia]

Well according to what chaos just posted, NFE is more of a placeholder than an actual tier. Those NFEs that actually have use are in a tier, and should absolutely have analyses.