[DONE] Uncompetitive Strategies [Baton Pass]

shiloh

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Not trying to be snarky, but could you give an example of a potentially broken strategy that is speed + another stat but does not use Scolipede or Smeargle? Specifically, a high-level replay or two? I honestly don't know of any Pokemon that can pull this off at a broken level other than those two.
Pretty sure SmashPass is just as broken, which includes Gorebyss and Huntail. This also takes into affect in other generations with SD + Agility Gliscor pass, and other strategies like it. If you want replays, look at the first post of this thread.
 

Aberforth

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http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-34608

From SPL.

I'd personally much rather the collateral from the decision be niche, but not broken sets that mons can easily adapt to than two non-broken pokemon with legitimate uses outside of Baton Pass. Of course, that's assuming there has to be collateral, which I dont like, but between banning two non-broken mons and banning three (agilipass scizor? have I missed something, when was that a set?) or so non-broken strategies on Pokemon that can easily adapt.
 
hi,

He also suggested this be implemented for the sleep clause as well, which if possible would be pretty cool, as the part of the sleep clause that breaks mechanics is the "but it failed!" which won't happen if you can't click Spore / Sleep Powder or w/e in the first place.
Please don't.

There is 3 case you would like to click on your sleep move button while you already put a mon asleep :

1: your opp sent a mon with Natural Cure (i.e: gen5/4 celebi sent against breloom) you can predict your opp to switch out (which would cure the celebi) and then put asleep the mon coming on. You are still respecting the sleep clause.

2: your opponent is faster than you and sleeping for 2 turns, you can easily "predict" (not really a prediction because based on rng) that he is gonna wake up on the next turn and then asleep him after his move.

3: during PP war, you would instantly loose some PPs just because one mon of your opp is sleeping.

there is (at least) 3 cases where having the sleeping move grayed out would be really annoying.

I feel like it's worth specifying speed + one or more other stat. Calm Mind pass w/ Musharna (and a Kee berry if real) was pretty legit at certain points. Weakness policy pass was a strat commonly used in UU when celebi was a part of the tier, and wasn't really broken. Every example of broken we've seen so far has been speed + another stat, not just any two stats.

The thing could read "you cannot hit BP if speed and any other stat is boosted".
What about passing defensive stats?

Problem is in my opinion not only speed, there are plenty of example that would make BP broken while having no speed boost.

If I give +4/+4 def/sdef to my espeon before doing some CM, I will not have speed, but you will not kill me unless crit.

BP issue is a lot more complex than I thought, I think we should just ban Stats Boosts + BP. It will make every kind of BP unplayable (imo NastyPass / SDPass and things like that are not competitive and should be banned as well) while keeping BP as a solution to avoid the pursuit trap.
 

atomicllamas

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hi,


Please don't.

There is 3 case you would like to click on your sleep move button while you already put a mon asleep :

1: your opp sent a mon with Natural Cure (i.e: gen5/4 celebi sent against breloom) you can predict your opp to switch out (which would cure the celebi) and then put asleep the mon coming on. You are still respecting the sleep clause.

2: your opponent is faster than you and sleeping for 2 turns, you can easily "predict" (not really a prediction because based on rng) that he is gonna wake up on the next turn and then asleep him after his move.

3: during PP war, you would instantly loose some PPs just because one mon of your opp is sleeping.

there is (at least) 3 cases where having the sleeping move grayed out would be really annoying.
uhh yeah, I already acknowledged the natural cure situation in a previous post and agreed it was dumb, but good on you for bringing it up after it was already addressed!

What about passing defensive stats?

Problem is in my opinion not only speed, there are plenty of example that would make BP broken while having no speed boost.

If I give +4/+4 def/sdef to my espeon before doing some CM, I will not have speed, but you will not kill me unless crit.

BP issue is a lot more complex than I thought, I think we should just ban Stats Boosts + BP. It will make every kind of BP unplayable (imo NastyPass / SDPass and things like that are not competitive and should be banned as well) while keeping BP as a solution to avoid the pursuit trap.
Uhh, idk how else to word this but, what the actual fuck is your opponent doing while letting you set up to +4/+4 defenses? Its not like speed boost where you accumulate boosts just by subbing and protecting, and can get up an iron defense on a weak attacker if necessary, nor is it like geomancy or shell smash where it only takes a single turn. On top of this, w/o a speed boost, the passers become much easier to taunt, or just kill, before passing. Considering BP is still limited to one passer per team, these are your options:

<atomicllamas> !search cosmic power, baton pass
<TIBot> Smeargle, Skitty, Delcatty, Lunatone, Solrock, Buneary, Lopunny
<atomicllamas> !search amnesia, iron defense, baton pass
<TIBot> Mew, Smeargle, Gorebyss

if you are losing to these (defensive passing) Pokemon, I think you might just be bad at Pokemon (also who have you been playing, cause I think they might be bad at Pokemon, lol). I mean I guess if you have a good replay of someone losing to an opponent only using a defensive boosting Pokemon to set up a sweep feel free to prove me wrong, but at some point people are just bitching about nothing, like come on, lol.

The fact you consider NastyPass and SDPass uncompetitive reveals more about your very loose definition of what is or is not competitive (hint: to be uncompetitive it has to be more than I don't like playing it!) rather than whether or not those strategies are balanced.
 
Uhh, idk how else to word this but, what the actual fuck is your opponent doing while letting you set up to +4/+4 defenses? Its not like speed boost where you accumulate boosts just by subbing and protecting, and can get up an iron defense on a weak attacker if necessary, nor is it like geomancy or shell smash where it only takes a single turn. On top of this, w/o a speed boost, the passers become much easier to taunt, or just kill, before passing. Considering BP is still limited to one passer per team, these are your options:

<atomicllamas> !search cosmic power, baton pass
<TIBot> Smeargle, Skitty, Delcatty, Lunatone, Solrock, Buneary, Lopunny
<atomicllamas> !search amnesia, iron defense, baton pass
<TIBot> Mew, Smeargle, Gorebyss

if you are losing to these (defensive passing) Pokemon, I think you might just be bad at Pokemon (also who have you been playing, cause I think they might be bad at Pokemon, lol). I mean I guess if you have a good replay of someone losing to an opponent only using a defensive boosting Pokemon to set up a sweep feel free to prove me wrong, but at some point people are just bitching about nothing, like come on, lol.
I was not only thinking about ORAS, sorry, I should have make it clear.
But still, Mew has huge natural bulk and can set-up iDef/Amnesia easily. Not everyone has taunt in every squad.
It would be way more restrictive, yes, but I think passing defensives stats isnt that impossible and shoud be considered.
Also, my bad, I don't have any replays because I don't play this kind of team and there is atm no point of using it when you have the others pass things, but that could be a problem afterwards if we don't think about that now.

The fact you consider NastyPass and SDPass uncompetitive reveals more about your very loose definition of what is or is not competitive (hint: to be uncompetitive it has to be more than I don't like playing it!) rather than whether or not those strategies are balanced.
I've said uncompetitive because it is easy to do, cost nothing, can be done multiple times in the same battle (something you can't do with geopass/smashpass), and can give you the win in some situations (there are a lot of different situation accross the gen where just passing a NP or a SD just give you the win).
I'm absolutely not saying this because I don't like playing/facing it, it's actually too rare at the moment, but in my opinion, if we consider resctriction for geopass/smashpass, we should also consider a restriction for NPpass/SDpass.
 

Aberforth

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I've said uncompetitive because it is easy to do, cost nothing, can be done multiple times in the same battle (something you can't do with geopass/smashpass), and can give you the win in some situations (there are a lot of different situation accross the gen where just passing a NP or a SD just give you the win).
I'm absolutely not saying this because I don't like playing/facing it, it's actually too rare at the moment, but in my opinion, if we consider resctriction for geopass/smashpass, we should also consider a restriction for NPpass/SDpass.
I can't believe I'm doing this but... what about what you just said doesn't apply to Dragon Dance Gyarados/Charizard, or clicking Hyper Voice with Gardevoir? I really dislike baton pass in general, but examples like Nastypass and SD pass aren't nearly as bad as stuff like GeoPass or ScolipedePass, and should not be talked about in the same bracket unless you are arguing that Baton Pass (the move itself) is uncompetitive, in which case you need to say it in a way that doesn't describe the vast majority of win conditions used.
 

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On the whole subject of the BP issue, I can only speak for ORAS, but my ideal way of dealing with it would be to ban the broken passers / receiver and leave it at that. Espeon is very mediocre in OU outside of BP, and is only slightly more useful in UU while Smeargle's hazard stacking set really took a hit with the two new Magic Bounce users and was never that good to start with. The only true collateral damage would be losing out on offensive Scolipede, but to fix an issue which plagues both the ladder and tournament scene, I don't think this is particularly damaging. If it's decided that ORAS doesn't want to go down this route, then I think preventing the passing of Speed boosts is the next best thing.
 
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On the whole subject of the BP issue, I can only speak for ORAS, but my ideal way of dealing with it would be to ban the broken passers / receiver and leave it at that. Espeon is very mediocre in OU outside of BP, and is only slightly more useful in UU while Smeargle's hazard stacking set really took a hit with the two new Magic Bounce users and was never that good to start with. The only true collateral damage would be losing out on offensive Scolipede, but to fix an issue which plagues both the ladder and tournament scene, I don't think this is particularly damaging. If it's decided that ORAS doesn't want to go down this route, then I think preventing the passing of Speed boosts is the next best thing.
I have to humbly disagree with you here, as I don't believe It is a smart idea to remove completely competitive Pokemon on there own that are connected to this issue, due to your reasoning, that they are not effective in the meta and the collateral damage would be worth it. I think this is not the most optimal route, as we could avoid having to remove any of these Pokemon and face no collateral damage, if we just disallowing the use of baton pass if the users speed stats are above 0 and they have another stat above that of 0. I do also understand that this way would be a lot faster and easier to implement, but I think a rash decision in just banning these Pokemon would be very exaggerated and unnecessary, especially when we have ways of going around this.
 
Throwing in my two cents on BP:

Apart from from the issue of having very few turns to "learn" how your baton passing opponent's habits and switching patterns, there is another issue with baton pass that I find rather disturbing.

Barring the unbeatable nature of hax/crits in a game where luck plays an important role in deciding the winner, when going against bp teams, the matchup is effectively the factor that decides who wins. Unless your team really has something that runs something that is a natural bane for baton pass teams, (eg. T-wave/ Taunt Thundurus/ Sableye being prime examples), it is usually an uphill battle for the non-baton passer. Sure, you could run other soft checks as well for baton pass such as Talonflame, Mega-Pinsir and so on but just one mistake, like a mispredict, or falling for a double switch, is going to give your opponent a big advantage, and unless you can really read your opponent's mind like a book, things have tend to get wrapped up more often that not in the favor of the baton passer.

Yes, Haze users can also be run as well, but unless you are going to go funky and use stuff like Haze Murkrow, 252HP 252 SDEF+ Unaware Quagsire etc., one is not exactly going to have much success in stopping baton pass chains as one would hope.

Having said all this, yes, one can undoubtedly beat baton pass by running stuff meant to stop it, but it is just going to mean that the team becomes one that "can handle baton pass well but fares weaker against other playstyles" due to the opportunity cost of running such countermeasures. Even if stuff such as Thundurus and Sableye can be run on teams easily, not all teams are meant to have such pokes inside in order to function optimally, and the need to forcefully insert such pokes in order to prevent being rolled over by baton pass is really a case of limiting teambuilding.
 

termi

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I'll weigh in a bit. This post is partially a reply to Snowy. and partially an elaboration on how I feel on this subject.

Smogon's policy is that we should keep bans as simple as possible, leaving the mechanics of the game intact as much as we can. I'm not an expert on BP, so I don't know which Pokemon should be banned to make full BP unviable, but I do believe that if the ban on one Pokemon can result in the decline of BP, this Pokemon ought to be banned. The BP situation, in this regard, is no different from the ban of anything else that has been deemed broken or uncompetitive in the past. If we were to conclude that Scolipede, for example, was the Pokemon that made BP chains uncompetitive, then it's perfectly legitimate that we ban Scolipede because of the fact that one set is broken/uncompetitive in the current metagame. There is no major difference between banning Scolipede because of its Iron Defense + BP set or banning Blaziken because of its Speed Boost sets, banning BW Excadrill because of its Sand Rush sets, banning Froslass from RU for its suicide lead set, etc. If one set is broken, we ban the Pokemon, it's that simple.

I know that some might say: "But Scolipede/Espeon/whatever is only broken in the context of BP chains, these sets are not inherently broken, therefore we cannot ban them." This, however, simply isn't a legitimate argument, because we generally don't ban Pokemon because they are inherently broken. Most bans are the result of a certain set being broken in a certain competitive environment, in other words, these bans are all based on their context. This is especially easy to see in lower tiers. For example, Kingdra was banned from RU not too long ago because RU simply lacked viable Pokemon that could weather Water + Dragon coverage. It was quickbanned because RU lacked the means to deal with it: Kingdra was not suitable for this competitive environment. This is just a random example that shows that things are always banned based on the state of the meta, and in this case, if the meta allows a certain set to become broken or uncompetitive within the context of the meta itself (Iron Defense + BP Scolipede would be broken because the meta gives it partners that make for great BP recipients and fit well in the chain), then it should be banned, even though it might not be standalone broken.

It is true that with BP, it's a little harder to pinpoint which part of the chain should be banned, but I figure this can be tested. If multiple parts are equally guilty of making BP an uncompetitive strategy, we should simply decide which ban results in the smallest amount of collateral damage. In this case, and only in this particular case, it is important to look at the Pokemon outside of its broken set(s) and look at how much the meta benefits from its presence when it isn't broken anymore.

Finally, I would like to make a remark on the possibility that a ban on one (or maybe even two) Pokemon doesn't eliminate BP chains from the competitive scene properly. If this is the case in the end, if BP chains can still find a way around these bans and remain a problem, the solution should, indeed, be a complex ban, but it should be a complex ban that has the least possible amount of collateral damage as a result. The current situation is that in OU and ever tier below it, only one Pokemon with Baton Pass is allowed per team. This is hypothetically restrictive, because Baton Pass is, in most cases (especially in lower tiers), not used in BP chains. This means that in some situations, you would want to use BP on multiple Pokemon on a team for reasons other than BP chain (or maybe for a mini BP chain, which is not necessarily a bad thing), but wouldn't be able to, because of the BP clause that is currently in effect (I actually faced this problem a couple of times myself). If a clause can be made that prevents these arbitrary teambuilding restrictions, it should be preferred over the current clause.

This is just my opinion on the full BP issue (can also be applied to previous gens), I feel like it hasn't been handled adequately during its suspect test a while back. The issues mentioned in the OP regarding Gen 6 (SmashPass, GeoPass) are a lot more one-dimensional and therefore easier to solve. The "Ban Passing more than two different stat boosts" is too complex and restricts teambuilding by also indirectly banning QuiverPass and CoilPass (lol), strategies that are, as far as I'm concerned, not necessarily broken. Banning Geomancy is the easiest way to go regarding GeoPass, considering Geomancy is broken on everything that gets it (that thing being Smeargle and nothing else, hehe). Maybe banning Smeargle would be another possibility, considering it's more in line with Smogon's general tiering philosophy, but considering a Geomancy ban brings no collateral damage whatsoever, it's perfectly legitimate. Regarding SmashPass, a complex ban on Shell Smash + Baton Pass on the same moveset is the best way to go about it, considering that, too, is broken on everything that gets it. The alteration of mechanics is justified in this case because it's preferrable over banning multiple Pokemon and doesn't unnecessarily restrict teambuilding in any tier, either (SmashPass is an uncompetitive factor in any tier tbh).

Summary:
  • If Full BP can be defused without complex bans, complex bans should be avoided.
  • The ban on a particular Pokemon that contributes to the uncompetitiveness of full BP in a major way is legitimate, because it is not fundamentally different from banning any other Pokemon that is broken because one of its sets is broken in the context of the metagame.
  • The ban on the Pokemon that should be banned to get rid of the problem that is full BP should, ideally, have as little of an impact on the rest of the metagame as possible.
  • If a complex ban is necessary after all, apply a complex ban that restricts teambuilding as little as possible.
  • Geomancy should be banned because it's broken on all the Pokemon that get it.
  • SmashPass should be banned because it's consistently uncompetitive/unhealthy for the metagame on everything that gets this combination of moves.
Hope this post made some sense.
 

McMeghan

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I would like permission to post my 2 cents on the BP subject. This is an issue that I have been involved in for quite some time and I have quite a lot to say on the best way to fix it. If I cannot post directly onto the topic for whatever reason, then I would like you to at least repost these thoughts, but I would prefer to do this myself so that I may defend my own arguments.

My position is that there is nothing inherently uncompetetive about the move baton pass or any strategies revolving around it, it's just that some users of baton pass are far too powerful. Broken Baton Passers are no more uncompetetive then broken setup sweepers like mega kanga or mega maw in that if you don't have a very specific answer to them, they will likely sweep your team with little to no effort when given even one free turn. The baton passers we have received in gen 6 are like nothing we have ever seen before. We now have baton passers capable of outboosting even our best non-uber setup sweepers and laughing while they do so. I've watched scolipede and smeargle tank multiple super effective hits mid-setup and not even lose half their health: a feat that no other setup sweeper, not even the mighty mega-mence, can lay claim to. The solution is not complex bans, the solution is to ban mons who are broken because of baton pass. Banning BP or any complex ban regarding BP to protect Smeargle or Gorebyss or whatever is like banning U-Turn to un-ban Genesect.


Why Scolipede is broken

The ability to boost defense and speed at the same time allows him to outboost any physical setup sweeper. SDers are unable to KO scolipede because he moves first while DDers simply get outboosted and fall behind hard. Once the pass is successful, the receiving mon becomes pretty much unrevengable. The extra speed prevents the receiver from being outsped, while the defense makes the receiver pretty much immune to all but the most powerful super effective priority hits. Any setup sweeper becomes broken with this combination, not just espeon. I have plenty of replays of SD zard-x tearing apart entire teams with a scolipass.



Why Smeargle is broken

Every generation since his conception, Smeargle has been receiving buff after buff after buff. I don't know previous generations very well, so I won't talk about them, but as of gen 6, Smeargle received a patently ridiculous boosting move known as Geomancy. This move takes a single free turn and boost 3 relevant stats by 2. Given even one more turn, Smeargle can use cotton gaurd to achieve pretty much the same thing scoli + espeon achieves, except in 3-4 turns instead of 5-8 turns. What smeargle proves is that no matter how weak a mon is initially, if it can become broken given 1 free turn of setup, then a team will be made to give it that one free turn.



TL;DR

BP teams are "uncompetetive" because they rely on abusing properties of broken mons, much like how HO was "uncompetetive" during mega mence's brief stint in OU. By banning the broken passers, I argue that BP teams will have an appropriate amount of counterplay and be a productive and healthy part of the metagame (NP celebi is a shining example of a non-broken BPer). The BP problem will not be "solved" until we recognize this fact and act on it.
 

dEnIsSsS

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Hi McMeghan, I came up with a solution. What do you think about modifying the current OU Baton Pass clause into this one:

"A pokemon cannot use the move Baton Pass if its speed stat is higher than +0 (excluding choice scarf)"
My proposal was to implement a new BP Clause that could cover all generations' issues we're currently seeing on tournaments (to be honest I was just concerned about the ones played in Smogon Tour). I thought that with this clause there was no need to retain the other one that was already implemented (no more than 1 BP user per team). The less clauses, the better. I might be wrong, but let's discuss it first.

full bp into espy with boosted defenses no pls
Alright, this concern is understandable and very reasonable because it is actually possible to use a speed-less chain (very match-up reliant, so it would be just worth using against certain players inclined to use very bulky teams without Taunt users. ie it would be suitable for the tour scene for a very specific opponent) so let's talk about a full Baton Pass chain into Espeon without speed boosts in ORAS (BW has less viable BP users, and I think it is not worth talking about DPP). Let us take the standard team from XY as a parameter for our analysis:

Scolipede: would be forced to run Poison Point as its ability. Some people say Scolipede was the main reason why Baton Pass chains were succesful in XY, since it is so easy to set up with Substitute, Protect and Iron Defense. Being able to pass +2 Spe +2 Def even against Prankster users and setting up on Mega Gardevoir and Mega Medicham's faces are notable feats. I must admit that even without Speed Boost it is quite fast, being able to outspeed most threats and getting a fast Iron Defense boost. Assuming it runs max speed, it can be killed by Tornadus-T, Raikou (Specs or AV Extrasensory), Manectric and Special Scarf users (Heatran, Keldeo, etc). However, in the end, it is only passing Iron Defense boosts. I'm not sure how supportive Scolipede would be. As even if it outspeeds a certain threat, it'll either have to tank the opposing Pokemon's attack or BP into the recipient, forcing him to take the attack instead.

Vaporeon: staple on BP Chains, being considered one of the most solid members of the chain thanks to its amazing bulk and for being able to deal with most physical threats with Acid Armor + Roar/Scald. Without speed boosts, and even considering how bulky Vaporeon is after some boosts, it is really slow, so it is very easy to turn it into a Taunt bait. Taunt users are pretty common in OU (Mew, Gengar, Talonflame, Gardevoir, Tornadus-t, Defensive Infernape (rare), Heatran, Gliscor and Skarmory). Vaporeon also loses to strong Electric and Grass-types such as Thundurus, Raikou, Serperior and Breloom.

Zapdos: was slapped on BP chains for being able to handle Flying spam, however it doesn't contributes with boosts outside of Charge. I also think that it is not difficult to wear it down with Stealth Rock.

Sylveon: Sylveon was an amazing Special Wall for BP chains, as it was able to handle some of the very strong Special Attackers in the tier with Calm Mind + Hyper Voice. Without speed boosts, I can say that it shouldn't be difficult to handle it as most teams pack an answer to Clefable. I must say that some of the Taunt users I listed before won't enjoy taking boosted Hyper Voices, but Gengar, Talonflame, Mew, Skarmory and Heatran are still able to counter it with ease though.

Espeon: Espeon has ridiculous defensive stats. If it runs a bulky spread, many relevant threats will outspeed it and deal massive damage. If it runs a fast spread, it will have almost no bulk (especially on the physical side). Choice Scarf Tyranitar and Weavile being popular threats doesn't help it either.

Smeargle: Without speed boosts, you won't have a guaranteed spore (unless you lead with it) and passing Ingrain would be pretty dificult in my opinion. The lack of Quiver Dance is also very frustrating.

Other options:

Scizor-Mega: if the opponent has any faster Fire-type mon, it should be easy to prevent Scizor from doing absolutely anything.

Mr. Mime: too frail to do anything without Speed boosts. Even Special attackers can overwhelm it.

Mew: it is a very strong BP user, I must admit it, but it still loses to Taunt Tornadus-t and Gengar. Pure Psychic-type is still bad (Choice Scarf Tyranitar, Weavile and such).

Celebi: it has 7 weaknesses, which makes it incredible hard to set up (even with Substitute), let alone pass the boost.

Drifblim, Solrock, Mawile: Any decent team would have solid answers to them regardless of anything.

Without speed, none of these Baton Pass users are going to reliably do their job. All these Pokemon have glaring weaknesses, but depending on the match-up the strategy can actually work, so you are probably going to get desperate, but do not forget that, as long as your opponent doesn't have Speed boosts it is either possible to: Taunt, hit hard with a super effective attack, set up alongside (Vaporeon, the premier physical wall would have to take a massive blow before it boosts with Acid Armor, and the same applies to Mew and Sylveon on the Special side - Serperior seems destructive for this very reason).

If you guys really want to avoid facing a speed-less chain, then applying both clauses (Speed Boost + BP ban and limiting to 1 BP user per team) does seem good. The main purpose of my Speed boost clause was to get rid of all forms of Quick Pass through generations (BellyPass, GliscorPass, SmashPass and GeoPass). I'm just saying that it is not worth using a speed-less chain because it would have a very small chance to win even against standard teams. Also please, stop suggesting to ban specific Baton Pass users (just like Smeargle and Scolipede in ORAS) as it does not prevent all forms of Baton Pass. As long as there is no restrictive clause it is possible to build new stuff around any Baton Pass user with access to speed boosting moves, as I showed in my RMT when the clause that limited its use to 3 (and later 1) Pokemon was applied.

Lastly I would like to say that there is one thing that my clause (modified by Zarel) doesn't cover properly: the ADV trap pass. I don't know this gen very well, but I could notice the lack of Taunt users, as well as Fighting and Bug moves, which means it is pretty hard to stop Umbreon from trapping anything with Mean Look, and then using Taunt + Torment afterwards. If a Special attacker is trapped, then it is pretty easy to bring something like Mr. Mime or Celebi in and set up on it, or, if a physical attacker is trapped, then it should be pretty easy to set up with Vaporeon. But I still I have no idea if it could be an issue because I've barely played this generation.
 
Alright i'm getting into this. As you know baton pass has been a strategy that got popular in Adv, it started mostly with Celebi and to be honest that was a very good strategy, however that "stategy" has evolved when new generations came up and made it as an abusive playstyle ( Double Dance Pass => Baton pass chain => Geo pass => Iron pass), but this is not what i want to point here, back in adv there was also a similar startegy to those listed above, it's called cradily pass, indeed all you have to do is relying on smeargle spore + substitute in order to set up with Belly Drum and activate the salac berry (Speed boost), as Cradily can not be phazed out you're probably getting swept once it get in (assuming you are not running utility pokemon, but anyway cradily should be running Lum Berry), one more time you can notice that there was a speed boosting which is the reason it is broken because i can assure you that without this, cradily is not gonna do more than one kill in addition to make it harder for Smeargle to setup as you can just send a faster pokemon and then prevent it from baton passing.

Back in DPP there was a similar thing again, Gliscor double dance + baton pass, this time you're not baton passing to cradily but probably to a physical sweeper, you will probably tell me that compared to Cradily this one can get phazed out but as much as Smeargle, Gliscor can use taunt which makes it very harder to beat once it used rock polish (most of time it is played with double screen), i'll also refer to Lavos Spawn game vs floppy in GSC where you can see a snorlax's sweep just because it got an agility from baton pass, one more time you can notice that there is a speed boosting move behind this. It is same thing for baton pass chain, geo pass and iron pass. And we will all agree on the fact that without those speeds boosting it would have been way more manageable.

However i'm not putting quick pass such as Nastypass Celebi in the same case because compared to iron pass, there is no speed boosting move, it can get taunted or revenge killed pretty easily and it can also get phazed out.

All that to say you should ban speed boosting + Baton pass because this is probably the only one thing that makes baton pass so broken.
 

gorgie

formerly Floppy, now Rock hard
The game between Lavos and I doesn't help your case here because I used a below-average team that failed in accounting for most cases of boosting and boost-passing in general. "My bad". I do follow the logic in the rest of your post though.

However, you didn't account for other "unbroken" strategies that'd be affected by a speed-boost ban, like Agility passing to Swords Dance Marowak for example.

Or were you maybe implying that these strategies are "minor" (not seen) enough to not pose an issue if they were to be martyred? If that is indeed the case, who/what determines what is and what isn't a minority?

edit: a word
 
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soulgazer

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The game between Lavos and I doesn't help your case here because I used a below-average team that failed in accounting for most cases of boosting and boost-passing in general. "My bad". I do follow the logic in the rest of your post though.

However, you didn't account for other "unbroken" strategies that'd be affected by a speed-boost ban, like Agility passing to Swords Dance Marowak for example.

Or were you maybe implying that these strategies are "minor" (not seen) enough to not pose an issue if they were to be martyred? If that is indeed the case, who/what determines what is and isn't a minority?
If BP teams ends up being 'broken' in GSC, we could just put the 1 BP user per team Clause maybe? That way, the ''unbroken'' strategies are still usable while the ''broken'' one won't be usable.

We should probably make different clause for BP in each Generation so that we don't end up banning legitimate strategies with speed boosting + BP, although so far it just seems to be the case in GSC.

e: heck, you can take this comment how you want since I am no GSC expert, but I personally think GSC shouldn't be affected by the BP clause discussed in this thread. From what I have seen in SPL and WCOP so far (especially since i was one of Jorgen's teammate LOL), BP teams are quite matchup reliant in GSC and you have to stay ahead of your opponent during multiple turns to pull off a sweep, which can be hard with the abundance of Phazers / Sleep Talkers.
 

dEnIsSsS

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Can we decide a course of action and start working towards that? People are still giving their "2 cents" and the thread isn't achieving anything.

I guess I should also make it clear that I'm completely against banning certain mons as these same mons may have some kind of utility outside of Baton Pass sets. In ORAS Smeargle would probably drop from BL and the low tier players would probably find some reason to use it in their teams. Scolipede is also a very good Pokemon to use in offensive teams as a Spikes and Toxic Spikes user or a fast and strong Pokemon or maybe even as a revenge killer (with Protect). Banning Gorebyss sounds a little bit ridiculous. In DPP Gliscor definitely has stuff to do other than Double Dance + BP. Also quoting Triangles regarding the ADV generation: "Banning Smeargle is a terrible idea, you lose out on the perfectly competitive Suicide Spikes set - needless additional damage".

I also disagree with the BP + any boost ban as it prevents many legit strategies already stated by McMeghan and many other users before.

so until now we have the following options that were pointed out in this thread so far:

- ban the broken BP users
- ban BP + any boost
- ban BP
- make multiple clauses/bans for each generation
- BP + speed boost + other boost (my clause modified by Zarel)
- the same as above including the "limit to 1 BP user per team"
 
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if you press "Baton Pass" while your Pokémon has Speed boosts and you have other choices (either you're not trapped or you're not locked into Baton Pass), you're disqualified and automatically lose. It's not a mod.
This should probably be extended to potential Baton Passers who are under the effect of Imprison.
Otherwise, information leaks can happen, such as this situation.

Player 1 has three Pokémon: A, B, and C. A is active.
Player 2 has one Pokémon: D.

Pokémon A, boosted by Salac Berry or in whichever way. Also, affected by Imprison from Pokémon B.
Moveset: Baton Pass, "Move X"

Pokémon B.
It counters the set of Pokémon C -set up- only if they receive "Move X". E.g. its ability is Flash Fire and "Move X" is Fire type, or similar.

Pokémon C.
Low enough HP to be useless against Pokémon D.

Pokémon D. Set up.
Moveset: "Move X", Fillers.

According to Player 1 knowledge, Pokémon C has a 30% chance to have a set that defeats Pokémon A, and it almost always does it by using "Move X".
Player 1 doesn't actually know if Pokémon D Move X, and therefore they don't know whether Baton Pass is their only allowed move or not. The judge has seen both players' screens though, and they do know that Pokémon D knows "Move X".
Since Pokémon D is set up, Player 1's only chance to win is to switch Pokémon D in to soak the appropriate move -if they have it. However, if they don't have it or if Pokémon D is switched in on another move, D will faint.
So A decides to go for a risky play (they are defeated otherwise), and chooses Baton Pass.
The judge rules the decision legal. Now Player 1 may choose who may switch-in, and they know that Pokémon D has that move; therefore, its likely that they used it.

With this information leaked, Player 1 sends Pokémon D and proceeds to win the game.
Compare this to the situation where Baton Pass' usage is not banned, and Player 1 can't know whether switching-in Pokémon D or Pokémon C would be a good idea.
 
- BP + speed boost + other boost (my clause modified by Zarel)
Honestly at this point, if we wanna do a blanket ban, ban BP + boost in speed in general seems better. Or at least "ban BP + speed boost + other boost" plus "ban BP + Speed Boost (ability)" cuz you can't really do anything to avoid that boost in speed (I mean Scoli can just Protect and outspeed taunters) and I don't want to see something like Scolipass to Reflect CM Espeon or similar lol. Maybe leave GSC where Agilipass is really strong but definitely not broken

- the same as above including the "limit to 1 BP user per team"
I think it's ok for gen 4/5/6. I feel there's no need to limit to just 1 BP user in gen 3 but I can't speak properly (maybe some more experienced player can). I repeat, Gen 2 has not problems at all with BP. Lavos vs Floppy game shouldnt be addressed to this issue cuz as Floppy said it was "his bad" since phazers are almost mandatory and there are not moves like taunt to prevent wwind/roar (also every good speed passer lacks sleep moves besides Smeargle which is meh in GSC - and restalker users are everywhere).
 

Isa

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why are people discussing baton pass in gsc? it's the worst generation by a mile for it since there's no taunt or magic bounce, there's one or two phazers per team, sleepers are common, explosions to desperately kill a boosted mon are commonplace, the only boost that's higher than +2 or +1/+1 is belly drumming smeargle...there is nothing that needs to be done about baton pass. counterplay is everpresent.
 

dEnIsSsS

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Honestly at this point, if we wanna do a blanket ban, ban BP + boost in speed in general seems better. Or at least "ban BP + speed boost + other boost" plus "ban BP + Speed Boost (ability)" cuz you can't really do anything to avoid that boost in speed (I mean Scoli can just Protect and outspeed taunters) and I don't want to see something like Scolipass to Reflect CM Espeon or similar lol. Maybe leave GSC where Agilipass is really strong but definitely not broken


I think it's ok for gen 4/5/6. I feel there's no need to limit to just 1 BP user in gen 3 but I can't speak properly (maybe some more experienced player can). I repeat, Gen 2 has not problems at all with BP. Lavos vs Floppy game shouldnt be addressed to this issue cuz as Floppy said it was "his bad" since phazers are almost mandatory and there are not moves like taunt to prevent wwind/roar (also every good speed passer lacks sleep moves besides Smeargle which is meh in GSC - and restalker users are everywhere).
"ban BP + speed boost + other boost" pretty much includes the ability Speed Boost. Speed Boost Scolipede + Iron Defense would be illegal, but a pure speed baton pass set would be legal (ie Substitute-Protect-Baton Pass-Rock Slide/Megahorn). Reflect CM Espeon sounds awful.
 

Zarel

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I am currently still leaning towards "ban the sets containing BP + speed boosting abilities/items/moves". I'd rather find out something's banned while teambuilding than in the middle of a battle when I'm trying to BP +2 Atk +2 Spe from Scolipede.
 
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"ban BP + speed boost + other boost" pretty much includes the ability Speed Boost. Speed Boost Scolipede + Iron Defense would be illegal, but a pure speed baton pass set would be legal (ie Substitute-Protect-Baton Pass-Rock Slide/Megahorn). Reflect CM Espeon sounds awful.
Also BP teams with just 1 BP user sounded awful but then you arrived with that geopass lol
I said that set just to say something you (or any other mastermind) can still do with that evil move since people don't want to ban BP + boost just to keep celebipass when it should be the final solution for what regards BP, and stuff like that celebipass indeed could be martyred for the good (obviously speaking for ORAS and why not also BW)
Zarel's proposal is really good tho
 

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