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Other Don't use that, use this [XY OU Edition]

Discussion in 'OverUsed' started by Magnemite, Feb 9, 2014.

  1. Magnemite

    Magnemite machamp with wings
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    Don't use that, use this
    Approved by Haunter

    [​IMG] [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    Idea based off of this thread in the BW RU subforum and various other threads for the other BW Metagames

    If you have taken a look at our usage stats recently, you may have noticed a few interesting trends. Top tier threats such as Landorus, Keldeo, and Manaphy are in UU range while bad, mediocre, or straight-up outclassed Pokemon such as Donphan, Cloyster, and Forretress are comfortably OU. The purpose of this thread is to educate newer players about which Pokemon are good, which Pokemon aren't, and why, ultimately leading to a better playerbase. Here is an example of how you should format your responses:

    Don't use this:

    [​IMG]
    Salamence @ Life Orb
    Ability: Intimidate
    EVs: 64 Atk / 252 Spd / 192 SAtk
    Naive Nature
    - Outrage
    - Draco Meteor
    - Earthquake
    - Fire Blast

    Why it's bad:
    While MixMence was an absolute monster in previous generations, it has fallen from grace in XY. Its coverage, which was once considered unwallable, now leaves it unable to break some of the most common walls in OU, such as Sylveon, Clefable, or Togekiss. In addition, Salamence's once highly sought-after power is now a bit lackluster for OU standards. In addition, there are now quite a few Pokemon that completely outclass it. One such example is...

    Instead, use this:

    [​IMG]
    Kyurem-Black @ Life Orb / Leftovers
    Ability: Teravolt
    EVs: 200 SAtk / 56 HP / 252 Spd
    Mild Nature
    - Substitute / Outrage
    - Fusion Bolt / Draco Meteor
    - Earth Power
    - Ice Beam

    Why it's better:
    Kyurem-B is everything MixMence ever hoped it could be and more. It is an absolute terror to stall teams, with its great coverage, sky-high base 170 and 120 mixed attacking stats, and excellent ability in Teravolt, all of which allow Kyurem-B to be one of the greatest wallbreakers in OU. Its Teravolt ability lets it bypass Mega Venusaur's Thick Fat and Rotom-W's Levitate to be able to 2HKO both of them. It's no slouch against offensive teams, either. It can set up a Substitute against a Pokemon it forces out, and then use its fantastic power and coverage to tear holes in the opposing team. It has the coverage to rip through Landorus-T, Gliscor, Azumarill, Mega Venusaur, and Togekiss, while it has the raw power to break Clefable and Sylveon. All of these Pokemon can cause Salamence major issues, while Kyurem-B has little trouble with any of them.

    Conclusion:
    While Salamence is a mere shadow of its former self, Kyurem-B is a more than suitable replacement. Kyurem-B is, simply put, a monster. Its attacking stats put Salamence's to shame, and its coverage is also impressive. Kyurem-B is so much more threatening of a wallbreaker than Mixmence could ever hope to be in the XY OU metagame.

    Archive:

    Archive (open)




    Rules:
    -Don't use this thread just to bash certain Pokemon.
    -Don't post obviously bad examples, such as Electivire or special Conkeldurr.
    -Try to refrain from posting about a Pokemon if it isn't receiving much usage in OU at the moment, since the purpose of this thread is to inform about bad or outclassed Pokemon or sets that get more usage than they deserve.
    -Please stay on topic.
    -Make sure to back up your arguments with relevant information. As in more than just a sentence or two.
    -All usual rules of the OU subforum still apply.
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2014
    Karmacharged, Molk and Spirit like this.
  2. JebusChrist

    JebusChrist

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    Should this include things that are outclassed by Megas? Ex: Amoonguss ----> Mega Venusaur, or something?
  3. Magnemite

    Magnemite machamp with wings
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    Megas are fine, though I suppose you could mention that the "one mega per team" rule gives a small reason to use the otherwise-outclassed Pokemon. However, I don't really agree with this specific example, as a) Amoonguss has a decent niche over Mega Venusaur, and b) Amoonguss has very low usage at the moment. If it was getting a lot of usage in comparison to Mega Venusaur, then I might feel differently, but I don't really think it's significant enough. Only post something if it is getting a decent amount of usage. (Maybe 2% usage in OU minimum? I don't know, I think that's a decent enough benchmark for now.)
    RyanKoopa likes this.
  4. SoulRed12

    SoulRed12

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    Goodra and Latias fill slightly different roles. Goodra is a much better special tank since it can comfortably run AV with four attacks, while Latias generally wants lots of non-attacking moves like calm mind, recover, defog, etc.

    Noivern holds a decent niche over Latios because it occupies a notably higher speed tier and can run different moves, most notably flamethrower rather than HP fire and Hurricane for rain teams. Not to mention infiltrator.

    What is Crumbler?
  5. Arikado

    Arikado looky looky here-ere!
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    Leftovers/Spooky Plate Aegislash with 252 HP/252+ SpA and Shadow Ball/S.Sneak/KS/Sacred Sword.
  6. Aquaslash

    Aquaslash

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    This is the only one that I think is truly bad. The usage of Knock Off has shot up so much that Chansey is more of a viability than anything. Once the Eviolite goes, she's pretty much dead weight from there.
    Other than that, I kinda take an issue with the point of this thread. If someone chooses to use an "outclassed" thing, and they make it work, then what's the problem? Then again, I've never been one to discourage the use of a certain pokemon just because another one may "do it better". Maybe the "lesser" pokemon just appeals to the player more. Wouldn't everybody only using top tier threats make things stale anyway?
  7. Baharoth

    Baharoth

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    Maybe ur "top tier threats" arent top tier anymore? Maybe those "outclassed" pokemon arent as bad or outclassed as some ppl here seem to think? Maybe the ppl using those pokemon actually have good reasons for using them and not some of the other stuff? Maybe not everyone using them is a total newb? Stupid thread rly -.-
  8. Sergeant Spooky

    Sergeant Spooky

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    Nah, Manaphy and Landorus are still really threatening.
  9. sidakarya

    sidakarya

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    Manaphy and Landorus-T are both A+ rank in the viability thread, which essentially translates as "top tier".
    xSilentDeviL likes this.
  10. Ze Diglett

    Ze Diglett

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    If I may, I'd like to suggest Genesect > Scizor. First of all, whilst Scizor's 70/130/100/55/85/65 stats are respectable for a physical attacker, nearly all of Genesect's stats are considerably better: 71/120/95/120/95/99. The Special Attack and Speed difference are what's most important as Genesect is not only naturally faster than Scizor, but it can also take on a role as a special/mixed attacker, something Scizor could never do. Genesect's coverage is also better than Scizor's, with access to (and usability of) Flamethrower, Thunder, Ice Beam, Iron Head, U-Turn/Bug Buzz, Dark Pulse, and any type of Hidden Power that you wish to run (which Scizor can't reliably use due to its lower Special Attack). Furthermore, Genesect has Download, and a free boost in either Attack stat right off the bat is extremely helpful, especially for mixed sets. While Scizor has a powerful Technician-boosted Bullet Punch, Genesect's Extreme Speed is arguably better, especially when coupled with a potential boost from Download. And, of course, it goes without saying that Genesect does the whole "Bug/Steel type with U-Turn for momentum" thing better than Scizor, mostly due to higher speed and more viability in a Choice Scarf set. While Scizor can run certain sets better than Genesect, it's outclassed in just about everything else by Genesect. The only thing Scizor really has over Genesect is Defog and Swords Dance to an extent due to Download.
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2014
  11. Baharoth

    Baharoth

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    Beeing A+ ranked in the viability thread, which is essentially just theorymoning, doesnt prove that they are realy "top tier" at least not for me, if they were they would be high in usage.

    However, that doesnt mean that they are bad, it just means they face harder competition then our "outclassed" mons. I have mentioned it like a 100 times by now but i still dont think donphan is outclassed, there simply is no other mon that offers the same qualities that he provides. The suggested replacement in the opening post donphan ----> excadrill is just bullshit in my eyes. Thats like replacing hippowdon with garchomp because both get stab EQ and SR...
  12. Zebstrika

    Zebstrika

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    Doing Florges vs. Sylveon here, as Florges was still #79 or so on January's usage stats.

    Don't use this:
    [​IMG]
    Florges
    @ Leftovers
    Ability: Who cares
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
    Bold Nature
    - Wish
    - Aromatherapy
    - Moonblast
    - Protect

    Why it's bad: It's not really that bad. Florges is a decent catch-all special wall, having a very good special defense and only 2 uncommon weaknesses. It can than set up wishes and aromatherapy to support the team when it encounters one of those special attackers, like Rotom-W.

    But it's completely outclassed by Sylveon. It just has worse stats, especially the ones that matter.

    Instead, use this:
    [​IMG]
    Sylveon @ Leftovers
    Ability: Pixilate
    EVs: 252 HP / 244 Def / 12 Spe
    Bold Nature (note: this spread is only physically defensive as an arbitrary spread to compare Florges and Sylveon, but you can throw in more special defense EVs and change the nature to Calm if you want to be a little better at walling special attackers)
    - Wish
    - Heal Bell
    - Hyper Voice
    - Protect

    Why it's better: Sylveon just has better stats than Florges. Sylveon has higher HP, so it has slightly better physical defense and slightly worse special defense overall despite having lower base defense and special defense stats. More importantly, Sylveon's higher HP means when a teammate receives a Wish, it is healed for more HP.

    252 Atk Genesect Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Florges: 228-270 (63.3 - 75%)
    252 Atk Genesect Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 244+ Def Sylveon: 236-278 (59.8 - 70.5%)

    252 SpA Genesect Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Florges: 170-204 (47.2 - 56.6%)
    252 SpA Genesect Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Sylveon: 198-234 (50.2 - 59.3%)

    Sylveon also is significantly stronger than Florges, making Sylveon less of set-up bait (including setting up substitutes as Hyper Voice is a sound move, bypassing subs). Their base special attack stats are 2 points apart, but Sylveon's Pixilate Hyper Voice is 117 base power factoring in Pixilate's 30% boost. Florges' Moonblast is just 95 base power. Overall, Sylveon is about 21% more powerful:

    0 SpA Florges Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Lucario: 151-178 (53.7 - 63.3%)
    0 SpA Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Lucario: 183-216 (65.1 - 76.8%)

    If you decide to run coverage moves, Sylveon is less than 2% weaker, worth the trade off for being able to use Pixilate Hyper Voice.

    Speaking of coverage moves, Sylveon's selection is better. Both of them have access to psychic type moves. In addition to those, Sylveon gets Shadow Ball while Florges gets a wide range of grass type moves. The three types that resist Florges' main fairy STAB (poison, steel and fire) also resist grass, so it's a pointless coverage move type.
    neep, MrPOKem0n, Enrryko and 4 others like this.
  13. SHUCKLE MAN

    SHUCKLE MAN

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    Rapid Spin users have been getting high usage for years. Same as how people kept complaining about Armaldo, Claydol, Wartortle, Blastoise, etc. usage in various Gen V metagames. The reason they all get higher usage is because a lot of players automatically put a spinner on every team they make.

    If people are so desperate to lower the usage of those Pokemon, perhaps a better tactic is to explain to others that having a method of hazard removal isn't necessary on every single team.
  14. TooMuchSugar

    TooMuchSugar

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    I wouldn't bother, given that Genesect is probably going to be banned tomorrow.

    I was writing about how Florges is outclassed by Sylveon, but I got ninja'd so nevermind.

    (Oh god the Donphan discussion from the viability ranking thread has moved here now).
  15. sidakarya

    sidakarya

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    It was obvious, but I decided to do it anyway (because people still use this thing)

    Don't use this:

    [​IMG]
    Donphan @ Leftovers
    Ability: Sturdy
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
    Impish nature
    - Stealth Rock
    - Rapid Spin
    - Earthquake
    - Knock Off / Ice Shard (kek)

    Why it's bad: With good physical defence and the ability to both set up and remove hazards, Donphan may look appealing. However, it is simply not good in the OU metagame. It is severely held back by its slowness, lack of reliable recovery and lack of useful resistances, meaning that it will be worn down alarmingly quickly as it spins. It has more problems with Spinblockers than any other rapid spinner - even its Knock Off does not do enough damage to ghosts as Trevenant and Aegislash, who will either cripple or outright kill Donphan. It has very little offensive presence, and its only excuse for priority, the non-STAB Ice Shard, fails to 2HKO a standard Garchomp despite the doubly SE damage. Finally, it is simply outclassed as a whole by most other hazard-removers, the chief being...

    Instead, use:

    [​IMG]
    Excadrill @ Air Balloon / Leftovers
    Ability: Mold Breaker
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
    Jolly nature
    - Rapid Spin
    - Earthquake
    - Iron Head
    - Stealth Rock / Swords Dance

    Why it's better: Excadrill is in every way a better Rapid Spinner than Donphan. Its Mold Breaker ability and powerful offensive presence allows it to beat most spin-blockers one-on-one; Aegislash and Gengar both fall to Mold Breaker Earthquake, and even Trevenant can be beaten with Shadow Claw or +2 Iron Head. Mold Breaker also allows it to beat Rotom-W one-on-one, a feat that is a pipe dream for Donphan. Despite its lower defence, its Ground/Steel typing gives it many more useful resistances and opportunities to switch in and remove hazards. This makes Excadrill probably the most reliable spinner in the OU tier.
  16. Shiruba

    Shiruba

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    Three words for why Scizor is not outclassed by Genesect:
    Scizor gets Defog.

    Furthermore, Blissey does have a niche over Chansey; weather teams. Blissey's not as easy to wear down via Sandstorm and the rare Hail due to Leftovers cancelling that damage out; it's also not as bad if you get smacked with a Knock Off I guess, though a good player probably shouldn't try to fight something commonly using Knock Off with their Diabeetus blob. It's generally inferior but not totally. Leftovers is still cool to not have to heal as often.

    I guess Blissey's Wishes are bigger though that won't matter most of the time due to their insane HP stats, but it might be worth noting.
    RyanKoopa and Cinco Diablo like this.
  17. fUddO

    fUddO

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    I don't understand the constant comparisons between Donphan and Excadrill. Is it because they're both Ground types or something? One is a wall, the other is an offensive threat. If anything, Mega-Blastoise is much more similar to Donphan, despite being special based.

    I mean, just look at the sets people are comparing - a 252HP/252Def Donphan vs. a 252Atk/252Spe Excadrill?
    Mjolnir128, sims796, Aelsorm and 5 others like this.
  18. sidakarya

    sidakarya

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    Donphan's role as a Rapid Spinner arguably takes away from its role as a physical wall (and it's not that great as a wall anyway, compared to Hippowdon, Gliscor or even Landorus-T), because spinning is an opportunity for the opponent to attack and break Sturdy, and it has no method of reliable recovery.
  19. fUddO

    fUddO

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    That's sort of the whole thing about Donphan - he's mediocre, but not really outclassed by anything. There are better physical walls, better SR layers, better Knock-Offers and better Spinners, but there is no one single Pokemon that can do everything Donphan does. Donphan is like a cake mix - not as delicious as something carefully stirred up from scratch, but quick and easy to use when you're in a pinch. He's just so efficient - why run Gliscor + Excadrill when you could get both their jobs done in 1 slot and run 5 other major threats?
    DestinyBond385 likes this.
  20. Baharoth

    Baharoth

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    Jan 9, 2014
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    Ok just for the fun of it...

    Don't use this:

    [​IMG]
    Excadrill @ Air Balloon / Leftovers
    Ability: Mold Breaker
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
    Jolly nature
    - Rapid Spin
    - Earthquake
    - Iron Head
    - Stealth Rock / Swords Dance

    Why it's bad: With very low defenses and a typing that leaves it vulnerable to 4 very common attacking types in form of fire, ground, fighting and water its hard to switch it in safely. Its got quite a few resistances, the most notable beeing flying and dragon but pretty much every user of such moves has coverage options to ohko Excadrill and most of them are faster as well. Because of its unfortunate typing it is forced to use Air Balloon leaving it without any recovery, further limiting its abillity to use rapid spin later in the match. While it can hit rotom-w with Earthquake it fails to ohko the most common physical defensive set while it gets ohkoed back most of the time. Because of that its very risky to switch in on rotom and unreasonable to hope to threaten it out.



    Instead, use:

    [​IMG]
    Donphan @ Leftovers
    Ability: Sturdy
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
    Impish nature
    - Stealth Rock
    - Rapid Spin
    - Earthquake
    - Stone Edge

    Why it's better: Its strong physical bulk allows it to switch into most unboosted physical attacks without taking much dmg giving it lots of opportunitys to remove hazards and set up his own. While its offensive presence isnt the strongest, its base 120 attack and decent SE Coverage from Stone Edge and Stab Earthquake are enough to scare out many common pokemon. Notable examples beeing Talonflame, Excadrill, Mega Pinsir, Charizard X and physical Mega Lucario. It can even outright counter or at least check these threats if it needs to, meaning it can switch on almost every move and ko them back in return. Aside from these top tier threats it can also switch in on weaker physical attackers like defensive Landorus-T, Gliscor, Hippowdon and many others who fail to deal much dmg to Donphan.

    The only common ghost types in the meta, Aegisslash and Gengar both take > 50% dmg from EQ and SE respectively and dont realy want to switch into it. Other Spinblockers like Trevenant are a problem for Donphan because he cant handle them himself, but since they are both rarely used thats not to much of an issue. Its typing while missing notable resistances is still good for Donphan because he is physical defensive and his 3 weaknesses in form of grass, ice and water are, for the most part, specially oriented and very easy to predict. Grass is also rather uncommon as a attacking type leaving donphan with virtually just 2 common weaknesses.

    Its biggest issue is the limited recovery. A problem thats getting even worse from the fact that Donphan doubles as a rapidspinner/stealth rock setter and a physical tank, meaning that if he is used to stop dangerous stuff like Mega Pinsir he wont be able to spin that many times afterwards or even not all. Because of that he shouldnt be relied on to stop these things, but if he needs to, he will.


    Let the shitstorm begin...
  21. Sergeant Spooky

    Sergeant Spooky

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  22. Baharoth

    Baharoth

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    Sry couldnt help it^^
  23. TheArchangle

    TheArchangle

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    @OP I don't agree with Kyurem B of MixMence. Mix Mence's niche in the first place was how it caught the opponent off guard via a Draco Meteor while Mix Kyurem B is rather common. Additionally, Salamence sits in the superior base 100 speed tier and boasts Moxie which I think gives it another advantage. After you massacre something with Draco Meteor, Dragon Claw/Earthquake become deadly.
  24. Robert Alfons

    Robert Alfons The Lord's Favorite
    is a Tiering Contributor

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    you're lost I'm pretty sure you meant to post this in http://www.smogon.com/forums/forums/firebot-development-lab.38/
    The Pizza Man and vyomov like this.
  25. a_dollar

    a_dollar

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    Oct 22, 2010
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    I cant believe you say chansey is better than Blissey, Almost every team has something with knock off and to me the small amount of added bulk is not worth it when your chansey gets hit with a knock off and becomes completely useless. with the amount of switching in chansey needs to do its pretty easy to get a knock off on it or if they anticipate what you are going to do then something else loses an item anyway. Sure this is true in most cases but chansey is laughable without the eviolite
    Ask Aggron and RyanKoopa like this.

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