Other Don't use that, use this [XY OU Edition]

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ethan06

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I don't see how Deoxys-S outclasses Espeon as a Magic Bouncer when it doesn't get Magic Bounce... Sure, it's faster, a bit bulkier maybe, Psycho Boost hits hard... But things can still set up rocks or webs, or spread paralysis... Perhaps if you gave it Magic Coat it'd do roughly the same thing, but you still can't stop things setting up just by switching in, in the way Espeon can. People use Espeon because of Magic Bounce, no other real reason.

Also, while Espeon itself sucks, it's the best Magic Bouncer in the game, and it CAN hold it's own in OU thanks to it's ability.
 
As Ethan said, Deoxys-S does not outclass Espeon, they're entirely different pokemon that do different things and aren't comparable.

Yes Deoxys-S is a better offensive poke than Espeon, but Espeon isn't just an offensive pokemon, it's main role is to bounce back hazards and status while also being able to deal damage. Even Magic Coat/Taunt Deo-S doesn't outclass Espeon because it can't do so on the switch, which is what makes Magic Bounce as good as it is. Also using espeon without baton pass to escape pursuit is a terrible idea. Espeon is also a staple for Baton pass teams, and whether you think those are gimmicks or whatever is largely irrelevant.

Now with that said, and keeping with the theme of this thread, if you were to say not to use Espeon, use Xatu instead. (espeon is not the best magic bouncer in the game, despite it's OU status and Xatu's UU status). While it's quite outdated (the write up being meant for gen 5) http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/lower-tier-threats.3486848/page-2#post-4788391 this post shows why Xatu is a superior magic bouncer to Espeon, being able to bounce back hazards much more reliably than Espeon and hardwall many top tier OU threats thanks to its ability, bulk, recovery, and extremely relevant ground immunity. In gen 5 Xatu could keep your side of the field clear of hazards throughout the match and shutdown even non hazard setters like breloom and gliscor while never having to fear being trapped by pursuit users Ttar and Scizor (and even setting up on them).

Unfortunately now in gen 6 magic bounce while still a very strong ability has lost alot of it's uniqueness. Grass types can now switch in on spores making it alot easier to counter things like Breloom and Smeargle. Additionally now that defog has been buffed and such strong pokemon have access to it, teams can have their hazard control without having to resort to weaker rapid spinners or magic bouncers to control the field. If anything defog's presence reduces the viability of both espeon and xatu more than anything else. back in gen 5 I considered Xatu to be a more reliable rapid spin because it kept hazards off your side of the field without having to deal with ghosts trying to spinblock you, defog works similarily being more reliable hazard control than both magic bounce and rapid spin. And while Magic Bounce still has it's advantages, devoting an entire team slot to an otherwise subpar pokemon leaves alot to be desired when you can have powerhouses like mandibuzz, skarmory, latias, and latios defogging for you and still doing everything else they do so well.
 
In this example, Deo-S and espeon are being used as an all out LO attacker. In this role, Espeon's access to magic bounce is more or less invalid. If Espeon wishes to take full advantage of magic bounce, it will run a defensive set (dual screens, CM.. these sorts of sets). Even then, the dual screen set is more or less outclassed by Xatu with the natural access to U-turn and Espeon's frailty makes CM unreliable at best.

Magic bounce in gen 6 is actually rather shit, too. Excadrill becomes a very heavily used setter/spinner, and his mold breaker puts rocks down with/without espeon. Ttar beats espeon and then sets rocks. Heatran does the same. Landorus-t should easily take espeon down. Bisharp can set rocks and block the removal, while crushing espeon with sucker punch. In fact, the only setters that espeon can reliably beat are the old gen-5 HO setters (Skarm, Ferro, Forrey). It just is unreliable to have Espeon as a rock blocker when it dies to the most common setters of rocks this generation. Last gen with suicide leads, Espeon was a fine option. This generation, the same does not hold true.

Espeon no longer is the best magic bouncer in the game. Actually, it never was, Xatu edged it on full capabilities outside of HO Sucide screening. Absol-mega is in fact a better bouncer if you lead with him, his attack is much better and his coverage allows him to take care of a lot of the stronger rock setters (Ttar/Heatran/Bisharp fall to Super power, Ferro/Forrey/Skarm lose to counter lead fire blast absol (all 2hko'd and no custap berry so whatever).

Really, using espeon for magic bounce is like using dunsparce for serene grace. Better users exist and it really is nothing more than a niche ability to begin with.
 
Nice work so far, guys!

I've got one:

Don't use this:

Espeon @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 HP / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Psychic / Psyshock
- Hidden Power Fighting
- Shadow Ball
- Dazzling Gleam

Why it's bad: Espeon has near top 20 usage right now, and I really don't get why. Magic Bounce is predictable, it's horribly frail, and it's easily walled by common Pokemon, such as Tyranitar and Heatran. In addition, Espeon is easily beaten by a ton of offensive Pokemon, particularly Genesect, Aegislash, and Scizor, among others. In addition, it doesn't really hit that hard, especially with its pathetically weak coverage moves. Magic Bounce is nowhere near good enough or consistent enough to warrant using a Pokemon with so many offensive and defensive shortcomings. Luckily, however, there is a far better alternative:

Instead, use this:

Deoxys-Speed @ Life Orb
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 20 Atk / 240 Spe / 248 SAtk
Naive Nature
- Psycho Boost
- Ice Beam
- Superpower
- Hidden Power Fire

Why it's better: Offensive Deoxys-S beats all of the Pokemon that laugh at Espeon, with the sole exception of Aegislash. It OHKOes Tyranitar and Excadrill with Superpower, while it also OHKOes Genesect and Scizor with Hidden Power Fire. Deoxys-S's ridiculous Speed allows it to function as a fantastic revenge killer that is faster than many Choice Scarf users, while its great mixed coverage and STAB Psycho Boost make it hard to wall. Not to mention, it can easily bluff a hazards lead set, which only adds to its potency.

Conclusion: Offensive Deoxys-S is better than offensive Espeon in nearly every way. It's much harder to wall, much faster, and much less of a liability against common Pokemon. Deoxys-S also outclasses Espeon when it comes to Dual Screens sets, but that's for another post.
Sorry, I don't mean to nitpick but wouldn't that much rather be Fire Punch to secure the OHKO on Genesect and the like?
 
Sorry, I don't mean to nitpick but wouldn't that much rather be Fire Punch to secure the OHKO on Genesect and the like?
With the amount of Special Attack investment on this set, Hidden Power Fire is actually stronger. Both HP Fire and Fire Punch OHKO Genesect, while Fire Punch fails to OHKO Scizor or 2HKO Ferrothorn, which HP Fire does. Hazard lead sets prefer Fire Punch because it is stronger when each stat is uninvested.
 
With the amount of Special Attack investment on this set, Hidden Power Fire is actually stronger. Both HP Fire and Fire Punch OHKO Genesect, while Fire Punch fails to OHKO Scizor or 2HKO Ferrothorn, which HP Fire does. Hazard lead sets prefer Fire Punch because it is stronger when each stat is uninvested.
Ah, alright. I just could not recall as I remembered reading somewhere that Fire Punch was liked....just seemed to forget that it was for Hazard/Screens set.

EDIT: Post 111! Yeah!!!
 
Don't use this:

Blissey @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EV's: 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD
Bold Nature
- Softboiled
- Wish / Heal Bell
- Seismic Toss
- Toxic

Why it's bad: Blissey's not bad, per say, but it's simply outclassed by its pre-evolution, Chansey, because Blissey has several key issues that prevent it from excelling. While Blissey possesses superior base stats than Chansey, its inability to use Eviolite means it has an extremely poor Defense stat that can be taken advantage of by nearly every physical attacker. Thus, Blissey is unable to wall the many mixed attackers popular in OU and often finds itself overwhelmed in a tier filled with powerful and unpredictable attackers. Furthermore, Blissey's niche over Chansey in being able to use certain special attacks has been largely overshadowed by a tier where Pokemon such as Assault Vest Excadrill and Aegislash take pitiful damage from even a super effective Flamethrower.

Instead, use this:

Chansey @ Eviolite
Ability: Natural Cure
EV's: 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD
Bold Nature
- Softboiled
- Wish / Heal Bell
- Seismic Toss
- Toxic

Why it's better: With Eviolite in hand, Chansey becomes far bulkier than Blissey could ever imagine in both stats. Although the lack of Leftovers may seem poor, Chansey more than makes up for it by having comparable physical bulk to fully invested 100/100 defenses while retaining the greatest special bulk in the game. This means that Chansey can wall many unboosted attackers, even many physical ones—an amazing feat and certainly a lifesaver for any defensively-oriented or Cleric-reliant team. Many dedicated wallbreakers, such as Kyurem-B, struggle to get past Chansey, a testament to her effectiveness against offensive teams. Chansey is still usable in Sandstorm and when afflicted by status—most attacks will do substantially less damage to Chansey as compared to Blissey even when factoring in the extra passive damage. And although Knock Off is more prevalent than it was last gen, with very few exceptions, the users of Knock Off are not Pokemon that Chansey should be staying in on anyway.

Conclusion: By virtue of its greatly increased defenses, Chansey should almost always be used over her older sister. Chansey still has at her disposal the vast majority of her sister's tools: Seismic Toss and Toxic; Natural Cure; and a variety of team support options including Wish, Heal Bell, and even Stealth Rock. In a metagame filled with extremely powerful attackers and game-winning setup strategies, no defensive Pokemon can afford to be easy fodder. Chansey, unlike Blissey, possesses the sheer defensive prowess and resiliency to make a significant contribution to any team in need of a great wall.

A few words if I may

1. Blissey is not anywhere near as crippled by knock off as Chansey is.

2. While I agree that Chansey is a better mixed wall, Blissey is still second to none in special walling.

3. Why u no invest in deh hp for blissey?

4. I for one do not particularly care for your Blissey set, as the most common taunt user I've seen is sableye who does not care about seismic toss, instead I like this set.

Blissey @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EV's: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
IVs: 0 Atk
Calm Nature
- Heal Bell/Protect
- Wish
- Stealth Rock/Softboiled
- Thunder Wave

Blissey is fairly unique as a specially defensive pivot for her ability to come in on something she walls, toss up a wish, and then swap to a healthy bulky offensive mon who can easily-ish take the next hit only to get healed to full. Thunderwave is better then toxic for this role as it is far better for crippleing enemy offensive pokemon. Stealth rock is there to help support your team, but it can be replaced with softboiled or some other support move if needed. Heal bell is standard but if you really need that reliable recovery, wishtect is an option (makes her a good scout, giving it a niche over running softboiled). Obviously, she is taunt bait, but blobs are always taunt bait, even with toss.

Also, quick note on the Xatu vs Espeon debate. BP > u-turn in this case because u-turn can actually be pursuit trapped, but not BP. u-turn does so little damage that it's actually more of a liability, and the number 1 and 2 counters for BP, taunt and roar, are irrelevant to espeon. Imho, the difference lies in offense vs defense, Espeons offensive stats and movepool are not bad and it can viably run an LO or a revenge killer scarf set, which Xatu cannot do. As noted, Deo-S does it better, but so do many pokemon without magic bounce, so that's irrelevant. As for mega-absol, he is a mega and a relatively weak one in OU (compared to mawhile and pinsir at least), further more, he needs to swap in and then get magic bounce. He functions better as a setup sweeper imo, which espeon is not beat at, even with the stored mind set.

So yeah, as a magic bouncer with immediate offensive presence, Espeon is outclassed.
 

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You forgot to give a Relaxed nature for Mega venusaur, which only grants a <1% chance (0.4% to be exact) of 2HKO while Mega Venusaur clearly outspeeds and has a good chance to 2HKO with EQ. Focus Punch is definitely still viable if you can predict a switch and get a Sub up, allowing you to defeat a lot of steels that like to switch in on it, while also brings about a lot of mindgames with Sucker Punch. There is a reason why Focus Punch at least got a mention in other options in the analysis, while Iron Head didn't even appear in it. The merits of possibly beating Venusaur is not worth losing to Ferrothorn, Skarmory and/or Heatran, which you could have a good chance of beating otherwise. I'm not saying Iron Head is not viable, but losing out beating at least 2 of your checks to have a lower than 1% chance to beat Venusaur is not worth it . After all, this thread is not about pointing out unviable sets, but rather pointing out when a set is outclassed by another.
First of all, Mega Venusaur generally doesn't run 252 Defense EVs, against the standard Bold 252/88 Iron Head actually deals 48-57% damage. Likewise, Ferrothorn, Skarmory, and Heatran are significantly easier to remove with team support than Mega Venusaur is (Brave Birds can be seen from a mile away, and Synthesis is incredibly annoying). A Swords Dance guarentees the OHKO on defensive Mega Venusaur after Stealth Rock, and Mawile actually can tank two Earthquakes. The chances of beating it are far more than 1%. It's not like the other coverage moves are letting you deal with every single other threat, you chose the move based on the team support you're able to provide.

Remember, this thread is supposed to be about "Don't use that, use this". Your example with Mawile does nothing but change a single move, and the move that you replaced is one that, despite not being the best choice, is still entirely viable, and in no sense objectively worse than the other options. This is why I don't believe it's a good example.

EDIT: None of your points demonstrate that Iron Head is COMPLETELY outclassed, but rather that it is PRIMARILY outclassed. This is a point I certainly don't disagree with, so let's just leave it at that. No point in arguing any further if we both agree that Fire Fang and Brick Break will pay off more in the long run.
 
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First of all, Mega Venusaur generally doesn't run 252 Defense EVs, against the standard Bold 252/88 Iron Head actually deals 48-57% damage. Likewise, Ferrothorn, Skarmory, and Heatran are significantly easier to remove with team support than Mega Venusaur is (Brave Birds can be seen from a mile away, and Synthesis is incredibly annoying). A Swords Dance guarentees the OHKO on defensive Mega Venusaur after Stealth Rock, and Mawile actually can tank two Earthquakes. The chances of beating it are far more than 1%. It's not like the other coverage moves are letting you deal with every single other threat, you chose the move based on the team support you're able to provide.

Remember, this thread is supposed to be about "Don't use that, use this". Your example with Mawile does nothing but change a single move, and the move that you replaced is one that, despite not being the best choice, is still entirely viable, and in no sense objectively worse than the other options. This is why I don't believe it's a good example.
Just because something is viable doesn't necessarily mean that it is the ideal one to use (i.e. Donphan, MPinsir with Close Combat). While Iron Head indeed has its perks of overcoming Mega Venusaur, you are guaranteed to lose at least half your health doing so, or even risk dying before Venusaur if it gets in on a double switch. Compared to Skarmory, Heatran, Ferrothorn etc which you can take down without much damage taken, the opportunity cost of running Iron Head over other options is simply too high. The biggest problem with trying to beat Venusaur is that it is usually ran with common Iron Head resists, in particular, Skarmory, Heatran, Aegislash, which you can't touch when you are running Iron Head. On the other hand, running a coverage move alleviates such problems, while SD sets are still guaranteed that 2HKO on Venusaur with Play Rough (which Iron Head cannot guarantee without SR). Basically Iron Head Mawile's advantage is not worth losing the additional important coverage for, especially when its only role with Iron Head is not even that well executed to begin with; afterall, Iron Head is not even mentioned in the actual analysis at all.
 
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A few words if I may

1. Blissey is not anywhere near as crippled by knock off as Chansey is.

2. While I agree that Chansey is a better mixed wall, Blissey is still second to none in special walling.

3. Why u no invest in deh hp for blissey?

4. I for one do not particularly care for your Blissey set, as the most common taunt user I've seen is sableye who does not care about seismic toss, instead I like this set.

Blissey @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EV's: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
IVs: 0 Atk
Calm Nature
- Heal Bell/Protect
- Wish
- Stealth Rock/Softboiled
- Thunder Wave

Blissey is fairly unique as a specially defensive pivot for her ability to come in on something she walls, toss up a wish, and then swap to a healthy bulky offensive mon who can easily-ish take the next hit only to get healed to full. Thunderwave is better then toxic for this role as it is far better for crippleing enemy offensive pokemon. Stealth rock is there to help support your team, but it can be replaced with softboiled or some other support move if needed. Heal bell is standard but if you really need that reliable recovery, wishtect is an option (makes her a good scout, giving it a niche over running softboiled). Obviously, she is taunt bait, but blobs are always taunt bait, even with toss.

Also, quick note on the Xatu vs Espeon debate. BP > u-turn in this case because u-turn can actually be pursuit trapped, but not BP. u-turn does so little damage that it's actually more of a liability, and the number 1 and 2 counters for BP, taunt and roar, are irrelevant to espeon. Imho, the difference lies in offense vs defense, Espeons offensive stats and movepool are not bad and it can viably run an LO or a revenge killer scarf set, which Xatu cannot do. As noted, Deo-S does it better, but so do many pokemon without magic bounce, so that's irrelevant. As for mega-absol, he is a mega and a relatively weak one in OU (compared to mawhile and pinsir at least), further more, he needs to swap in and then get magic bounce. He functions better as a setup sweeper imo, which espeon is not beat at, even with the stored mind set.

So yeah, as a magic bouncer with immediate offensive presence, Espeon is outclassed.
Not putting 252 Defense EVs on Blissey is crazy; doing so more than doubles its physical bulk and otherwise it will be destroyed by any physical attack.
 
Don't use this:




Espeon @ Light Clay
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 Spe / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Timid Nature
- Psychic
- Reflect
- Light Screen
- HP Fire / Baton Pass / Yawn / Morning Sun


Instead, use this:



Klefki @ Light clay
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
Bold Nature
- Reflect
- Light screen
- Spikes / Toxic / Thunder wave
- Foul Play


Why it is better:



Prankster, better defensive typing, the ability to discourage setting up against the pokemon or scaring off opponents all together with the potential of crippling them with either toxic or T-wave are things Klefki can boast about. And while Dark and Ghost moves are roaming all around OU and can be expected anytime thanks to Knock off and similar options, Klefki doesn't care about Dark moves or worries to much about Ghost users who are wary of running into foulplay anyway.
 

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Guys, stop bashing on Pokemon with a real niche in the OU metagame, that's not the purpose of this thread. Dual Screens Espeon is perfectly viable over Klefki, as it has Magic Bounce, which makes it a good partner for SR weak sweepers and makes her immune to the screen-removing effect of Defog. It also has Yawn and Baton Pass, as well as actual offensive pressure over Klefki.

Same with Blissey and Chansey. Chansey has more bulk and is in general the best option true, however Blissey is better in sand teams and fares much better against Volt-turn teams due to the passive recovery, which means that it's not so easy to wear down as Chansey, especially with conjuction with Protect.

Seriously, think carefully before posting a comparison, as the inferior Pokemon has to be truly inferior, not generally inferior.
 
Magic Bounce makes her immune to the screen-removing effect of Defog.
Yeah, Defog still removes hazards and screens even if it's bounced since it works on both sides. Sorry to burst your bubble there. Though I will agree on the fact that Klefki sucks.

I, honestly, have no idea how Xatu could ever be seen as superior to Espeon in any way. Espeon has better stats, typing, and more utility use.
Offensive Espeon sucks and is outclassed by a LOT of things, like Alakazam and Latios. Espeon should only be run for Magic Bounce, Dual Screens, or for Baton Pass teams if you still think that joke is funny.
 
Yeah, Defog still removes hazards and screens even if it's bounced since it works on both sides. Sorry to burst your bubble there. Though I will agree on the fact that Klefki sucks.
I'm not sure if it's a bug on Pokemon Showdown, but using Defog against an Espeon does NOT remove its screens.
 
Don't Use This:

Espeon @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 HP / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Psychic / Psyshock
- Hidden Power Fighting
- Shadow Ball
- Dazzling Gleam

Instead, Use This:

Xatu @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 SAtk / 56 HP / 200 Spd
Timid Nature
- Psychic
- Heat Wave
- Grass Knot
- Roost

Why It Is Better:
Ok first of all, the reason I'm posting this is because Xatu has a fantastic niche over Espeon, and that is that it can actually stop hazard layers. Ok sure, Espeon will bounce a layer of spikes right back at ferrothorn, same as Xatu, but Espeon's attacks have low base powers, making poor use of Espeon's great special attack stat. To add to this, Espeon is horrifically frail, so a lot of the hazards setters out there like Mamoswine, Ferrothorn, and Excadrill can stay in survive a weak hit, and knock you out. Meanwhile, Xatu is able to OHKO many hazard laying threats with it's better coverage and unpredictability, while still being able to outrun max speed positive nature excadrill with the shown EV spread. Xatu acts as a lure to many pokemon that underestimate it, and Xatu is strong enough to knock them out. Xatu can even run defog if you were caught off guard by a Garchomp running stealth rocks. Xatu being weak to stealth rock shouldn't even be a problem the vast majority of the time if you use magic bounce well. Not to mention the fact that Xatu is immune to ground attacks and has a reliable recovery move with high PP, letting it beat chansey and blissey, which can seismic toss right through espeon, and letting it beat Hippowdon, Donphan, Gliscor, and Landorus-T's that lack Stone Edge, all of which beat Espeon as well. While Espeon may have a better speed tier, gaining it a niche as well, when it comes to stopping hazards no matter what, Xatu is second to none.


Still don't believe Xatu has use in OU? Let's run some calcs.
252 SpA Life Orb Espeon Psychic vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mamoswine: 289-341 (79.8 - 94.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Espeon: 247-292 (90.8 - 107.3%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Espeon: 321-380 (118 - 139.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Xatu Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mamoswine: 413-489 (114 - 135%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Espeon Hidden Power Fighting vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 242-286 (66.8 - 79%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Espeon: 255-300 (93.7 - 110.2%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Xatu Heat Wave vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 309-364 (85.3 - 100.5%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Xatu Heat Wave vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 309-364 (85.3 - 100.5%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Xatu Heat Wave vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 309-364 (85.3 - 100.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes
252 Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Rock Slide vs. 56 HP / 0 Def Xatu: 226-268 (79.2 - 94%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Espeon Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Ferrothorn: 302-359 (85.7 - 101.9%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Espeon Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Ferrothorn: 302-359 (85.7 - 101.9%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
0 Atk Ferrothorn Power Whip vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Espeon: 186-219 (68.3 - 80.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Xatu Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Ferrothorn: 385-458 (109.3 - 130.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO


EDIT: Oh just saw Sacaen's post, and yeah he also makes some great points, and has an alternate set for Xatu, that's also very viable, and a lot bulkier than you might think: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/lower-tier-threats.3486848/page-2#post-4788391
 
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sorry to be a pest, but can someone link me to usage stats for this month? I don't want to post without knowing of the Mon I'm talking about Is even used as much as I think
 
Could somebody explain how this thread works? From reading the op, I understood it was to discourage using pokemon that are largely outclassed by others except maybe for specific niches. Then we got things like Donphan being suggested over Excadrill and Xatu being suggested over Espeon. I'm not suggesting that these pokemon aren't usable, but you're overselling them and people reading might make some incorrect assumptions.

If my assumption from the op is correct, and I'm just reading some posts wrong, I'll do one on using Thundurus instead of Klefki as a Twave Prankster, but I want to make sure I don't post in ignorance
 
Could somebody explain how this thread works? From reading the op, I understood it was to discourage using pokemon that are largely outclassed by others except maybe for specific niches. Then we got things like Donphan being suggested over Excadrill and Xatu being suggested over Espeon. I'm not suggesting that these pokemon aren't usable, but you're overselling them and people reading might make some incorrect assumptions.

If my assumption from the op is correct, and I'm just reading some posts wrong, I'll do one on using Thundurus instead of Klefki as a Twave Prankster, but I want to make sure I don't post in ignorance
Most of the posts you are talking about were in response to other posts saying that ecadrill outclasses donphan etc. People are just retaliating. It honestly doesn't matter because the only thing this thread will ever accomplish is to piss people off.
 
Could somebody explain how this thread works? From reading the op, I understood it was to discourage using pokemon that are largely outclassed by others except maybe for specific niches. Then we got things like Donphan being suggested over Excadrill and Xatu being suggested over Espeon. I'm not suggesting that these pokemon aren't usable, but you're overselling them and people reading might make some incorrect assumptions.

If my assumption from the op is correct, and I'm just reading some posts wrong, I'll do one on using Thundurus instead of Klefki as a Twave Prankster, but I want to make sure I don't post in ignorance
Well like you said, most of the time we're not trying to say that one pokemon is absolutely better in every way, but that they are better at a certain niche, that's how salamence has two distinctly different posts. I mean of course we acknowledge that different pokemon do different things better than each other, but I guess it's to show people that are using a pokemon in a certain niche that a different pokemon can do it better. To make an example just to demonstrate the point of thread, I guess you could say use Jellicent over Vaporeon as a bulky water in OU because it has better typing and will o wisp and so on, and while Vaporeon is outclassed in this one role, this does not make Vaporeon completely useless, and it will still find use as a bulky water who can pass wishes in OU. Also for example in my post, I point out why Xatu is better at controlling hazards than Espeon, with a specialized movepool that can beat common hazard setters (and Xatu learns like 95% of what Espeon can learn and a ton it can't learn), a better typing, better recovery, and access to defog, but at the same time, if you want a calm mind sweeper that can't be toxic'd, taunted, or roared out, Espeon outclasses Xatu due to it's better speed tier. Espeon also has a niche due to it's access to heal bell I guess.
 
Could somebody explain how this thread works? From reading the op, I understood it was to discourage using pokemon that are largely outclassed by others except maybe for specific niches. Then we got things like Donphan being suggested over Excadrill and Xatu being suggested over Espeon. I'm not suggesting that these pokemon aren't usable, but you're overselling them and people reading might make some incorrect assumptions.

If my assumption from the op is correct, and I'm just reading some posts wrong, I'll do one on using Thundurus instead of Klefki as a Twave Prankster, but I want to make sure I don't post in ignorance
you need to take a lot of the posts with a grain of salt and read some of the discussions afterwards instead of just taking any particular post at face value to really get anything out of this thread.

as alexwolf said a few posts up, a lot of people are posting stuff that sort of outclasses something else while not completely, and as other have pointed out throughout this thread, a lot of the comparisons are between two particular pokemon that achieve different things (and therefore neither of them necessarily outclass the other since they aren't doing the same thing).
 
access to defog
Xatu can't run Defog and Magic Bounce on the same set because it gets Defog via Gen. 4 HM and Magic Bounce is only available in Gen 5 and up. Honestly, the trade off is never worth it as Magic Bounce is the only reason Xatu is used to begin with.
better typing
The only thing a partial Flying typing gives Xatu is the ability to switch into CB Earthquakes. Its typing is more of a liability than anything as it's weak to Stealth Rock as well as the potent Ice type. While a 4x resistance to Fighting type moves can be nice, gaining three weaknesses makes a partial Flying typing more of a curse than a blessing.
 
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