Resource Doubles OU Teambuilding Frameworks! (outdated)

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Checkmater

a pinned butterfly is no butterfly at all
is a Pre-Contributor
#1

If you're stuck on where to go next when building a team, or unsure of where to start, you can check out this thread to find out what successful Doubles teams have looked like and what some of these teams have in common.

Viewing teambuilding frameworks can also be helpful to notice similarities and differences accross compositions to get a better grasp of building with a particular Pokemon or core or archetype.

If you want to contribute feel free to post similarities between successful teams that you've spotted! Your post can be a framework for me to add to the OP, or a comment on an existing framework. Please contribute as much as possible: good discussions are always healthy and welcome on the forums, and it's good practice in team analysis!

Currently in progress of getting some groundwork laid out, and would appreciate any assistance!

  • 2 Fire resists/counters
  • 1 Ground immunity
  • 2 Steels checks
  • At MOST 2 pokemon that have difficulty dealing with Steel-Types
  • At least 1 Steel Type
  • At least 2 Soft Psychic Spam checks
  • Counters for both Celesteela AND Ferrothorn
  • At least 1 Hoopa-U counter
  • At least 1 Water-resist
  • At least 2 Mega Salamence counters


Checkmater Semiroom

Stax TR

Marilli Semiroom


1: Gardevoir
2: Steel-Type

While most of these teams feature Heatran for its ability to deal with opposing Fire-Types as well as provide more offensive pressure under Trick Room, Aegislash is an option as well.
This slot primarily functions to beat opposing Gardevoir and Psychic Spam, as well as Mega Salamence
3: Amoonguss
Most teams opt for Amoonguss here because of its very strong synergy with the style of Gardevoir Trick Room. Being able to absorb hits and benefitting from Gardevoir's ability to beat opposing Tapu Fini make Amoonguss+Gardevoir a strong combination.
In particular, a grass type is important in order to check the combination of Marshadow and Rain at the same time for Gardevoir teams. A strong rain check is especially necessary for teams running Heatran.
4: Water-Type
Waters are the only strong steels check that simultaneously deal with LandoT, making them valuable includes. There are a variety of options such as the presented Gyarados, Rotom-Wash, Volcanion, and Tapu Fini, but Rain should also be noted as an option.
5: Ground-Type
LandoT and Zygarde both work well to beat Fire-types, while also checking Steels.
6: Flexible Steels Check
Steels are obviously problematic so this final slot is also geared towards dealing with them. Most use a Dark-Type, but Snorlax is also a viable option.

Further Notes:
All teams have intimidate to help Garde deal with physical attackers.
Most Gardevoirs are running Trick Room.
Unless they are using Fini, the answer to Amoonguss for the rest are either beating it outside of room or using Substitute.

Stax Semiroom

Kaori/Sam Semiroom


Matame Semiroom

Stax Electric-Spam

Majorbowman & Miltankmilk Balance



1: Mence
Mence functions as a potent threat in the metagame, especially for late-game cleanup, but it struggles heavily against opposing steel-types, as well as the FiniZap core
2: Electric-Type
Helps beat opposing mence, as well as helping deal with FiniZap. Electric-Types are also generally decent at covering opposing steels
3: Steels Check
Needed to cover up Mence's inability to deal with Steel-types. Most teams fill this slot with a dark type but LandoT also works
4: Dedicated Fairy resist/counter
Here we can see perhaps the most deciding role on Mence teams: how they choose to deal with opposing Fairy-types. While all of these cover opposing Fairy-types on the surface, Heatran is notably unable to deal with Tapu Fini, Amoonguss struggles against Tapu Lele, while Aegislash and Ferrothorn struggle most against opposing Fire-Types while also being more passive than other options.
5: Water+Fairy-Type
Fairies (in 4/5 of these teams) complete the Dragon, Fairy, Steel core. Fairy-types are strong, with many options (Tapu Bulu is notably absent, but could theoretically work well with Mence) in the current meta, but are especially important for checking Hoopa-U & Ttar, as well as Dragons such as opposing Mence and Kyube. Overall, Water+Fairy is an amazing typing that compliments Salamence very well.
6: FiniZap Counter, Steels Check
Most teams use Snorlax, whereas Stax's ElectricSpam team uses Porygon Z. Both are incredible at punishing the passivity of FiniZap cores, using the momentum gained to setup unhindered.


The point of noticing frameworks like this isn't to limit creativity or say "you MUST build this way." this framework catalogue exists as a resource for when you're starting out on a new team to help you take a top level thing and put your own spin on it. - Keith

Once one understands why, for example, landot or water types or fire types (etc) are almost 100% include for x framework then it's easier to see the costs/benefits of not running that slot and how it can impact teambulilding, as well as being able to more easily glimpse the variety within teambuilding.
 
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#3
* i run hp ice on tranner as 3rd
the roles i value on my mence teams:
1) salamence
2) lele check (rachi here)
3) tran check (azu/lando here)
4) koko check (lando here)
5) milo/fini check (koko here)
6) chary+lele soft check (heatran here)
thats very similar to what you listed just more specific
 
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#4
Stratos Sun aka Mega Charizard Y without Trick Room

The new generation has removed some of CharY's major threats (Mega Diance) or made some of the threats less viable (Thundy-I, Rotom-H). But it has brought some new threats such as Tapu Koko and made some old threats more viable (Zygrade, Thundy-T). So this is essentially an update to the old frame work
Some notable differences from the old framework. 1) Much fewer fighting types due to primarily due to Mega Salamence and Tapus. 2) Different dragons; Zygrade moved way up, Latios way fell off, Hydregoin and Kyurem-B remain viable.

Nido-Rus beats Laga in Flashback
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pokebankdoublesou-515744759


Nido-Rus beats Flame Road in Seasonals
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pokebankdoublesou-506847451


n1n1 beats Nvakna in Seasonals
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7doublesou-528265147

Stratos Sun (Charizard-Mega-Y) @ Charizardite Y
Ability: Drought
EVs: 248 HP / 64 Def / 88 SpA / 108 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Flamethrower
- Solar Beam
- Ancient Power
- Protect

Landorus-Therian @ Assault Vest
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 196 Atk / 12 Def / 48 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- U-turn
- Rock Slide
- Superpower

Rotom-Wash @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 32 Def / 64 SpA / 32 SpD / 132 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Volt Switch
- Trick
- Will-O-Wisp

Cresselia @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 204 Def / 52 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psyshock
- Icy Wind
- Calm Mind
- Moonlight

Aegislash @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Stance Change
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Shadow Ball
- Flash Cannon
- Wide Guard
- King's Shield

Pheromosa @ Focus Sash
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- High Jump Kick
- Ice Beam
- U-turn
- Protect


Demantoid beats finally in Seasonals


MajorBowman beats stax in SPL8



general check list
Must haves:
At least 2 Heatran checks, and at least one of them should be a ground move to also cover Koko. Also remember that if Lando/Zygrade is a check, Heatran and Koko can both run HP Ice
At least 2 forms of speed control(Twave, Scarf, Tailwind, base 130+, Icy Wind)
At least one Trick Room check.
At least 2 checks for Mega Salamence(Zygrade/Hydregoin). At least one check being a spread move (ie:Dazzling Gleam, Icy Wind) to get around Jirachi
At least 2 Lando checks
Electric immune
Rock Slide switchins
At least 1 Rains check
At least 2 Tyranitar+Excadrill checks (wide guard can count as one)
Wide Guard - not required but nice to have
Intimidate - not required but nice to have

Do NOT have:
Only water and fighting moves as Heatran checks.
3+ electric weaks. 3+ rock weaks.


1. Mega CHarizard Y
2. Electric immune, Heatran counter. Lando is preferable if your Charizard Y is optimized to survive -1 rock slids. Scarf Lando and Dragon Dance Zygrade also act as a form of speed control. They also both have good match ups versus Mega Salance. Lando is considered and opposing Lando check; Zygrade is considered a Rock Slide switch in.
3. Speed Control. All teams have either scarf, twave, or base 130+ in this slot. All but bowman's team have an electric type. They all hit hard versus bulky waters and have strong match ups against Mega Salamence.
4. More speed control. All teams have Icy Wind here except Vivillon who has Tailwind.
5. LandoT check. Wide Guard on all teams through Aegislash except Nido has Bulu who does well vs Lando. This slot can also be considered your Trick Room check. (Aegislash is fake out immune and hits setters hard, Bulu can run Taunt/Roar)
6. Filler. All teams have either Fairy or Ice Moves here.



please pm me if you want your importable added or if you know how to make bigger pictures
 
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#5
Stratos Sun aka Mega Charizard Y without Trick Room

The new generation has removed some of CharY's major threats (Mega Diance) or made some of the threats less viable (Thundy-I, Rotom-H). But it has brought some new threats such as Tapu Koko and made some old threats more viable (Zygrade, Thundy-T). So this is essentially an update to the old frame work
Some notable differences from the old framework. 1) Much fewer fighting types due to primarily due to Mega Salamence and Tapus. 2) Different dragons; Zygrade moved way up, Latios way fell off, Hydregoin and Kyurem-B remain viable.

Nido-Rus beats Laga in Flashback
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pokebankdoublesou-515744759


Nido-Rus beats Flame Road in Seasonals
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pokebankdoublesou-506847451


n1n1 beats Nvakna in Seasonals
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7doublesou-528265147

Stratos Sun (Charizard-Mega-Y) @ Charizardite Y
Ability: Drought
EVs: 248 HP / 64 Def / 88 SpA / 108 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Flamethrower
- Solar Beam
- Ancient Power
- Protect

Landorus-Therian @ Assault Vest
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 196 Atk / 12 Def / 48 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- U-turn
- Rock Slide
- Superpower

Rotom-Wash @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 32 Def / 64 SpA / 32 SpD / 128 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Volt Switch
- Trick
- Will-O-Wisp

Cresselia @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 204 Def / 52 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psyshock
- Icy Wind
- Calm Mind
- Moonlight

Aegislash @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Stance Change
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Shadow Ball
- Flash Cannon
- Wide Guard
- King's Shield

Pheromosa @ Focus Sash
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- High Jump Kick
- Ice Beam
- U-turn
- Protect


Demantoid beats finally in Seasonals


MajorBowman beats stax in SPL8



general check list
Must haves:
At least 2 Heatran checks, and at least one of them should be a ground move to also cover Koko. Also remember that if Lando/Zygrade is a check, Heatran and Koko can both run HP Ice
At least 2 forms of speed control(Twave, Scarf, Tailwind, base 130+, Icy Wind)
At least one Trick Room check.
At least 2 checks for Mega Salamence(Zygrade/Hydregoin). At least one check being a spread move (ie:Dazzling Gleam, Icy Wind) to get around Jirachi
At least 2 Lando checks
Electric immune
Rock Slide switchins
At least 1 Rains check
At least 2 Tyranitar+Excadrill checks (wide guard can count as one)
Wide Guard - not required but nice to have
Intimidate - not required but nice to have

Do NOT have:
Only water and fighting moves as Heatran checks.
3+ electric weaks. 3+ rock weaks.


1. Mega CHarizard Y
2. Electric immune, Heatran counter. Lando is preferable if your Charizard Y is optimized to survive -1 rock slids. Scarf Lando and Dragon Dance Zygrade also act as a form of speed control. They also both have good match ups versus Mega Salance. Lando is considered and opposing Lando check; Zygrade is considered a Rock Slide switch in.
3. Speed Control. All teams have either scarf, twave, or base 130+ in this slot. All but bowman's team have an electric type. They all hit hard versus bulky waters and have strong match ups against Mega Salamence.
4. More speed control. All teams have Icy Wind here except Masquerain who has Tailwind.
5. LandoT check. Wide Guard on all teams through Aegislash except Nido has Bulu who does well vs Lando. This slot can also be considered your Trick Room check. (Aegislash is fake out immune and hits setters hard, Bulu can run Taunt/Roar)
6. Filler. All teams have either Fairy or Ice Moves here.
I think it's awesome to see a Charizard framework take shape! However, I'm not sure "Charizard without Trick Room" really warrants a seperate category from Charizard with TR. That distinction was never made in ORAS; the distinction was Char + Venusaur vs. Char without Venu, because running Venusaur as a sun abuser had a big impact on how you built the rest of the team. Historically speaking, I don't think any framework has been divided into two based on the speed control used, and even if you look at the Salamence framework in this thread, it has both non-TR and TR teams on it. Eventually it might be nice to see another "Dedicated Trick Room" framework though n_n
 

marilli

two, but one.
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
#6
I think what would be better would be to swap out rachi to the 5th slot on the first team. This way we point out every team has a Steel type then have the 4th slot be a Landorus check. Having a good defensive switch-in to Mega Salamence is really important for a lot of Zard-Y teams, given that Milotic / Tapu Koko don't take kindly to a Double-Edge coming their way, and Landorus doesn't have a positive matchup against Salamence despite the intimidate. Having a resist to Psychic type moves is also pretty important in order to check Tapu Lele, as Zard / Lando / Electric core leaves u with no psychic resists.

We can note that all the steels have a way to situationally deal with Landorus, either be Wide Guard on Aegi (though Tectonic Rage Landorus is decently common), or Icy Wind Jirachi. But calling your EQ-weak Pokemon your "Lando check slot" when there's Milotic / Cresselia / Tapu Bulu seems a bit odd.
 

Checkmater

a pinned butterfly is no butterfly at all
is a Pre-Contributor
#8
I appreciate the preliminary work n1n1 but I am reluctantly tabling Charizard-Y for the present moment. I'd like to be able to include TR teams as well as be a little more selective in the teams I include.

Before I launch into what I've got it should be accepted almost without saying that I REALLY REALLY want people to concentrate feedback and communication relating to this thread to, well, in this thread! It makes things easier to keep track of and keeps dialogue flowing if people voice their opinions and thoughts in this thread rather than over ps msges or in Discord!

I've written a general teambuilding checklist, which can be found here

  • 2 Fire resists/counters
  • 1 Ground immunity
  • 2 Steels checks
  • At MOST 2 pokemon that have difficulty dealing with Steel-Types
  • At least 1 Steel Type
  • At least 2 Soft Psychic Spam checks
  • Counters for both Celesteela AND Ferrothorn
  • At least 1 Hoopa-U counter
  • At least 1 Fire-resist
  • At least 1 Water-resist
  • At least 2 Mega Salamence counters


And here's a Kangaskhan Framework!!!


Finally SemiRoom

Stax TailRoom

Checkmater & Stax Balance

SamVGC Zygarde

Memoric Balance

Croven Sand

1: Mega Kangaskhan

Though mechanically different that last gen, Kangaskhan is still very powerful. Now sporting a bulky Seismic Toss set as the standard set, it brings to the table the ability to heavily capitalize on advantageous situations, tank bulky attackers, and demolish balance. An utter lack of opposing STABS in the metagame and an effective immunity to Intimidate leave Mega Kang a potent and splashable team option.
2: Electric Type: Zapdos or Tapu Koko
Here, all teams run an Electric Type. While Tapu Koko enjoys Kangaskhan's ability to punish opposing LandoT, Zapdos is also an excellent option for its ability to provide Kangaskhan with Tailwind as well as generally check opposing Hyper Offense through speed control and good bulk. Teams running Zapdos here use a Tapu in another slot: the ability to disrupt opposing Psychic Terrain is very important for Kangaskhan.
3: Solid Gengar/Aegislash/Jirachi Check
All three of these threats can be incredibly problematic of Kangaskhan to deal with, especially if Jirachi has a recovery berry (Figy / Sitrus). By running either Dark-types or Heatran, Kangaskhan teams can be provided the ability to effectively punish opposing Ghost-Types. In addition, this slot greatly benefits from Kangaskhan's ability to threaten and punish LandoT.
4: Additional Fires / Steels Check
While the previous slot deals with Fire-Types, this slot also functions as a dedicated Fire and Steel-types check. Generally, Water-types and Hoopa-U also function fantastically as checks to Steel-Types.
5: Soft Hyper Offense Check, LandoT Switchin/Check
While the last two slots of these teams are varied as according to what the builder felt most threatened by and designed to compliment previous team slots, this slot can be generally said to check opposing Hyper Offense (for example Rain and Psychic Spam) as well as finding different ways of punishing Landorus-Therian on teams. This slot as well as the 6th function as resist-grabs for the team and punish opposing LandoT
6: LandoT, Mence, Jirachi, Psychic Spam Check
Most run LandoT here, but teams that do not already have a Steel-type put a Steel here.

Some General Notes:
All teams except Stax TailRoom run a ground type
Steel-Types are included on every team, though they do fill a variety of roles
Kangaskhan has been seen to work with almost everything, but notable exceptions are Tapu Lele/DeoA, Jirachi, Tapu Bulu, Volcarona, Milotic, or Azumarill, even in teams NOT included in the framework.
All team members are capable of significantly denting Aegislash, with the exception of Alolatales.
Most teams look like some form of balance, and it should be noted that almost all Kangaskhan teams lack solid ways of dealing with opposing Kangaskhan, possibly because either none exist of the only good bet is to run Ghost-Types or Hyper Offense.


finally Stax SamVGC Memoric Croven
I would love to hear your thoughts and comments!
Please note that I did pass over a couple teams, but they for the most part did also fit this framework. For example, Finally's Kangaskhan Rain team would be Kang / Koko / Kingdra / Pelipper / Ferrothorn / LandoT
 
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#9
Nice!

One small nitpick under the general checklist: at the top you have "2 Fire resists/counters" then a bit further down you have "1 fire resist." The latter can probably be removed.
 
#10
frameworks should show the thought process of the builders
when these guys were building these teams I bet none of them said "hmm, I need an electric type limited to zapados and koko"

instead they thought "I need to account for bulky waters (like always) and have some sort of speed control"
(yes, I consider koko speed control)

You should word it in a way that implies this.
So this means I can consider Rotom Wash(twave or scarf), Thundy-I(scarf, possibly twave), Skymin, Whimsicott.
Even if you believe these mons dont fit the slot as well that is already implied since the teams you selected do not have them. but nonetheless they can fill the same role.
Do the mons I listed conflict with something else in the framework that Zap/Koko does not? if so, you should have said explicitly why you limit electric choices to 2 mons


for slot 4 these mons dont really do much to CharY and Volcanion; 4/6 are fini which isnt gonna threaten Celesteela or Jirachi much at all.
All these mons really fuck over Kingdra which has been a big threat in the current meta.
Instead this slot is really a Fire Resist/Rain Check more than Fire Check/Steel Check

the 5th slot is really just a mess. I cant make much out of it. And this is where I realized that most of these teams arent even built around kang; with 1 or 2 exceptions they are built around a set up sweeper. And kang is there for fake out support. So imo just leave memorics team and wait around for some more tours until you find teams that are really built around kang

and the remaining teams can be broken out like this

1.) set up sweeper - (you should have separate frameworks for fini and zygrade)
2.) bulky fake out support - a fake out user gives Zygrade/Fini opportunities to use DD/CM. Kang is probably the best option because against tough match ups you can always get a guaranteed amount of damage from seismic toss except against ghosts. Scarfty is also a good option for intimidate support. A few other options to consider are mew who can provide TW/TR support. Rain Ludicolo also does well with Zygrade. Weavile is another idea for Zygrade as she scares out Landos and Mega Salamences. Once niche option for fini is raichu for lighting rod and nuzzle support
3-6.) mons that support Zygrade/Fini in some other way
 

Checkmater

a pinned butterfly is no butterfly at all
is a Pre-Contributor
#11
I appreciate the feedback but there are some problems/misunderstandings in your post.

The reason the frameworks thread only considers teams that have demonstrated success is because the viability of possible substitutions is dubious at best. It's not that Whimsi+Kang has not been used, it's that it is assumed bad until proven otherwise. Which brings me to my second point...

That the thread is designed to be results-oriented. Thus, this removes much (but notably not all!) of the personal bias of the writer in creating the framework. I can think that Kang+Skymin is as good as I want but until I see it do well in a high-level tour or similar level of play that doesn't matter.

On another note, it should hopefully be very obvious what Zapdos/Tapu Koko do that Skymin, Thund, Rotom-W, Whimsicott cannot.

It bears repeating that these frameworks are definitely not designed to say "you must build this way" hence why I did not include any analysis on why it is limited to "why you limit electric choices to 2 mons". More often than not, being able to look at frameworks and the top cut of teams from high level play lets you make observations such as "hey why isn't anyone running ferrothorn, if I switch this here, and that there could it be good?" and then test said team. For example, last gen some players (though perhaps maybe not strictly in reference to the gen6 doubles ou teambuilding frameworks thread) looked at zard and said "hey why do people ALWAYS use venu with Zard? Couldn't it be better without?" and the rest is history.

It also bears mentioning that this thread is not designed to mimic the original teambuilding process. It can reflect that, but moreso it is designed to show the frameworks and patterns that successful teams exhibit. Thus, it doesn't really matter if a team is "built around" a threat. By nature of being on the team, it molds the rest of the team. Even if I put kang 6th, or substitute it for mence on my rain team and it turns out to be 100x better, the reason that team is good is (hopefully) because it fits well into a framework like this. Again, the results-oriented nature of the thread makes it such that readers and writers can disregard most of the subjective thought processes of the builders, though they can be very valuable.

I don't think your 1-6 properly analyze the composition of these teams. For example, it leaves 4 slots up in the air, and doesn't really inform readers. Like yeah, if I have Zygarde slots 2-6 should obviously be supporting Zygarde, but what mon wouldn't do that? A framework hopes to answer the question of how, why, with what, and against what do I support x mon or core? and therefore should go into greater detail.
 
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#12
Just a thought, but has there been any consideration around building frameworks regarding the Tapus? With the exception of Koko which is more of a "I just need a strong Electric" mon, I feel like the other three Tapus are more influential to team builds than Megas are this gen.

Nobody really builds "around" Mence or Kanga since they're so splashable. Zard, Metagross and Gengar probably are built around more, but the tapus are probably still more influential.

If you're running Lele you're not running priority attackers. If you're running Bulu, you're either Trick Room, have strong speed control support, and/or are trying hard to negate other terrains. Fini's admittedly pretty splashable, but in a lot of ways its a win-con mon that can be built around. This gen is really all about terrain wars, so imo that should be considered in the frameworks.

Also, it might be cool to eventually see frameworks around prominent win-con strategies and environment control strategies:
  • Offensive Set-Up win-cons (Zygarde, AzuRachi, Fini, etc.)
  • Endgame Stall win-cons (Celesteela, maybe Ferrothorn??, etc.)
  • Dedicated Trick Room
  • Dedicated Rain
  • Again, the different terrain setters
...idk, in ORAS megas were definitely the most influential aspect of how you built teams, but imo it's dangerous to assume the same for SM. Mons in general is an overcomplicated game of rock-paper-scissors until you factor in unique win-cons or end-goal strategies, and simply running a specific mega isn't enough to warrant that being a unique strategy to win games. Maybe there's an existing vision for the frameworks that overrules what I just ranted about, but imo the first slots of frameworks should centre around what people actually build around, and not just the megas for the sake of preserving what the precedent was in past gens.
 

Checkmater

a pinned butterfly is no butterfly at all
is a Pre-Contributor
#15
main problem is that the kang ban is very recently new so just this week we're going to start getting teams in a non-kang metagame/setting, also it's possible that there are upcoming suspects
 

Checkmater

a pinned butterfly is no butterfly at all
is a Pre-Contributor
#18
We are back in business my friendos
Stax Semiroom

Kaori/Sam Semiroom


Matame Semiroom

Stax Electric-Spam

Majorbowman & Miltankmilk Balance



1: Mence
Mence functions as a potent threat in the metagame, especially for late-game cleanup, but it struggles heavily against opposing steel-types, as well as the FiniZap core
2: Electric-Type
Helps beat opposing mence, as well as helping deal with FiniZap. Electric-Types are also generally decent at covering opposing steels
3: Steels Check
Needed to cover up Mence's inability to deal with Steel-types. Most teams fill this slot with a dark type but LandoT also works
4: Dedicated Fairy resist/counter
Here we can see perhaps the most deciding role on Mence teams: how they choose to deal with opposing Fairy-types. While all of these cover opposing Fairy-types on the surface, Heatran is notably unable to deal with Tapu Fini, Amoonguss struggles against Tapu Lele, while Aegislash and Ferrothorn struggle most against opposing Fire-Types while also being more passive than other options.
5: Water+Fairy-Type
Fairies (in 4/5 of these teams) complete the Dragon, Fairy, Steel core. Fairy-types are strong, with many options (Tapu Bulu is notably absent, but could theoretically work well with Mence) in the current meta, but are especially important for checking Hoopa-U & Ttar, as well as Dragons such as opposing Mence and Kyube. Overall, Water+Fairy is an amazing typing that compliments Salamence very well.
6: FiniZap Counter, Steels Check
Most teams use Snorlax, whereas Stax's ElectricSpam team uses Porygon Z. Both are incredible at punishing the passivity of FiniZap cores, using the momentum gained to setup unhindered.


Kaori MajorBowman miltankmilk Stax Matame and anyone else,
Please add any comments you have!

edit: editted into OP.
 
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#20
when are we getting a mars. hadow framework you massive pussy
Marshadow's offensive typing and power look very interesting. It will be pressured by faster Mons such as Scarf Lele and Specs Koko, but I can see his potential in being able to smash Ferrothorn, Cresselia, Dark types (although they are already afraid of Mons like Lele), and his ability to deal massive damage to Hoopa-U in and out of Trick Room 252 Atk Technician Marshadow Shadow Sneak vs. 252 HP / 0- Def Hoopa-Unbound: 160-190 (43.9 - 52.1%) -- 17.2% chance to 2HKO. I also believe that he will excel on teams with Lando, Alolan-Ninetales, and Mega-Mence due to his admirable bulk for an offensive Mon.

Another note that I'd like to make is that, when paired with anti-Fairy Mons, Marshadow and Mega Mence make one hell of a core. Mence usually packs EQ or Fire Blast to deal with Steel types, but he could free that move slot for DD, Roost, or TW when he has Marshadow as a partner. Mega Mence ban incoming????? The world may never know. I certainly don't hope so
 
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Checkmater

a pinned butterfly is no butterfly at all
is a Pre-Contributor
#21
Gardevoir Framework!!

Big thanks to all the people who worked closely with me to make this speedy af framework possible. Do keep in mind that this is very fresh off of some meta changes, so this framework is likely to change teams or the entire framework itself over time.
As always, discuss!


Checkmater Semiroom

MajorBowman Balance

Demantoid Semiroom

Misaka Miokoto TR

Miishimono Semiroom

Stax TR


1: Gardevoir
2: Steel-Type

While most of these teams feature Heatran for its ability to deal with opposing Fire-Types as well as provide more offensive pressure under Trick Room, Aegislash is an option as well.
This slot primarily functions to beat opposing Gardevoir and Psychic Spam, as well as Mega Salamence
3: Grass-Type
Most teams opt for Amoonguss here because of its very strong synergy with the style of Gardevoir Trick Room. Being able to absorb hits and benefitting from Gardevoir's ability to beat opposing Tapu Fini make Amoonguss+Gardevoir a strong combination.
In particular, a grass type is important in order to check the combination of Marshadow and Rain at the same time for Gardevoir teams. A strong rain check is especially necessary for teams running Heatran.
4: Water-Type
Waters are the only strong steels check that simultaneously deal with LandoT, making them valuable includes. There are a variety of options such as the presented Gyarados, Rotom-Wash, Volcanion, and Tapu Fini, but Rain should also be noted as an option.
5: Ground-Type
LandoT and Zygarde both work well to beat Fire-types, while also checking Steels.
6: Flexible Steels Check
Steels are obviously problematic so this final slot is also geared towards dealing with them. Most use a Dark-Type, but Snorlax is also a viable option.

Further Notes:
All teams have intimidate to help Garde deal with physical attackers.
Most Gardevoirs are running Trick Room.
Unless they are using Fini, the answer to Amoonguss for the rest are either beating it outside of room or using Substitute.
 
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