Resource Doubles OU Teambuilding Frameworks

#1
approved by Memoric

If you're stuck on where to go next when building a team, or unsure of where to start, you can check out this thread to find out what successful Doubles teams have looked like and what some of these teams have in common.

Viewing teambuilding frameworks can also be helpful to notice similarities and differences accross compositions to get a better grasp of building with a particular Pokemon or core or archetype.

If you want to contribute feel free to post similarities between successful teams that you've spotted. Your post can be a framework for me to add to the OP, or a comment on an existing framework. Please contribute as much as possible: good discussions are always healthy and welcome on the forums, and it's good practice in team analysis. Also feel free to suggest what team should be added to the frameworks if you think theres something i missed out on.

Tagging stax Level 51 Jhon qsns MajorBowman AuraRayquaza Matame miltankmilk marilli Demantoid talkingtree Memoric Z strats nvakna Nido-Rus Biosci in case you want to share your thought process for making the teams. Thank you to all you guys, literally everyone that i asked agreed to share their movesets, which in my oppinion makes it so much better.

Mega Salamence
Stax Tapu Koko Offense

Level 51 Icy Wind Suicune

Qsns Z Move Deoxys

Marilli Tailwind Mew

1: Salamence-Mega
2: Psyspam Check

Deoxys can be very problematic for fast, offensive teams, so either sand from Tyranitar or U-Turns from AV Genesect can go a long way in helping that match up.
3: Grass Type
Decidated rain check, is supposed to cover Kingdra and Swampert that threaten most of the other members. Also switches in and shuts down tapu fini. Amoongus / Ferrothorn help deal with trick room that most offensive teams struggle with.
4: Water Type
Secondary Kingdra check can switch in and take advantige of muddy water, also checks Heatran for Salamence. Suicune provides speedcontrol in Icy Wind for its teammates, while Volcanion can take advatige of the good synergy with Salamence and either set up subsitutes or threaten the opposing team. Qsns decided not to run a water type, trading his rain/Lando check for Deoxys that offers immidiate offensive pressure and can make up for the defensive synergies with its damage output.
5: Offensive Support
Here the teams differ the most, Marilli decided to go with Mew that helps out Salamence with fake out while supporting the team with tailwind, Stax went with Groundium Z Landorus that can set up stealth rocks while providing a substantial damage output. Qsns's Lando is AV providing a strong defensive pivot while L51 added aegislash to complete his defensive core.
6: Tapu Fini Answer
While the grass types may be checking Tapu Fini defensivly fast teams need a more direct way of dealing with it. Tapu Koko may deal a lot of damage/OHKO depending on its set, while Tapu Lele from Level 51 can set up calm mind and hit it with a boosted psyshock.

Mega Metagross
Aurarayquaza Electrium Zapdos

Stax Marshadow Balance

MajorBowman Fightinium Marshadow

Level 51 Tailwind Mandibuzz

1: Metagross-Mega
2: Steel Type Check

Things like Ferrothron, Celesteela or opposing Metagross are very important to cover as they tend to be the go to Metagross answer. This mon is often viewed as the glue to the Landorus-Electric-Fini-KyuremB core. Marshadow and Victini offer revenge killing support (with high base speed and priority and CS on Tini), while Mandibuzz provides Tailwind for its teammates.
3: Ground Type
Another steel check, also covers things like opposing Tapu Koko. Landorus-T is the most common choice as it also provides Intimidate and a switch into opposing Landorus. Formes a strong defensive with Metagross as it breaks through steel and fire types for it, while Metagross can threaten ice type pokemon with its steel STAB move.
4: Tapu Fini Check
Dedicated water check, Tapu Koko offers the highest damage output, while Zapdos offers speedcontrol and a ground immunity. Tapu Lele sets up Calm Mind on Fini to hit it with booseted Psyshocks.
5: Water Type
The team requires a strong answer to kingdra and other water types, while it also benifits from a consistant heatran switch in. Tapu Fini was the choice on all the teams as its the strongest water type in the format, fulfilling both the tasks mentioned. When its paired with Zapdos it allows it to run Misty Seed, while for Tapu Koko it can change the terrain allowing it to make use of Nature Power.
6: KyuremB
Featured on all the teams above KyuremB just doesnt have strongly viable alternatives on a playstyle like this. It offers secondary speed control via icy wind, helps check Mega Swampert and Zapdos finishing both the defensive and offensive core with its exceptional typing. In most chooses to run Hidden Power Fire as coverage allowing it to hit Ferrothorn/Kartana for the rest of its teammates.

Mega Gengar

Matame Pinch Lando

Jhon Psychium Tapu Lele

Demantoid KyuremB Balance

Level 51 Staraptor Sand

1: Gengar-Mega
2: Fire Type Check

Gengar can stuggle against specially bulky fire types such as Heatran or Volcanion and can be set up on by Volcarona.
3: Ground Type
Ground is an important aspect of the defensive backbone, making sure the team can switch into Tapu Koko or Mega Tyranitar. Intimidate from Landorus-T supports the the Shadow Tag trap and allows Gengar to stay on the field longer, while Excadrill can use it to threaten opposing pokemon without having to worry about opposing Intimidate user swiching in.
4: Landorus-T Check
Gengar is weak to ground so naturally it needs something that can switch into Landorus-T. The first three teams went for a defensive check that can also threaten it with a ice move, while Lv51 decided to use Starapor as a quick way to OHKO Landorus with Scarf Final Gambit.
5: Tapu Lele
Part of the reason to run Gengar is for its ability to trap opposing Terrain Setters and allow Tapu Lele to make full use of its offensive capabilities in Psychic Terrain. It also functions as a secondary switch in to psyspam and its terrain blocking Shadow Sneak from Marshadow allows Gengar to win the 1v1 match up.
6: Steel Type
Mandatory answer to things like Scarf Tapu Lele or Deoxys that otherwise can threaten the team immensely. They help handle offensive steel types like Metagross under Tailwind.

Mega Scizor
talkingtree Marsh Balance

miltankmilk Scizor + Scrafty

MajorBowman Chople Tyranitar

Nido-Rus Gothitelle

1: Scizor-Mega
2: Ferrothorn Answer

While Scizor itself isn't very much threatened by Ferrothrons STAB moves, it can get worn down by Leech Seed and its teammates appreciate a quick way of getting rid of it (most Scizor might struggle to KO it even at +4).
3: Ground Type
A ground type is almost mandatory on every Scizor team for its fantastic defensive and offensive synergy with the Mega. They switch in and threaten the fire and steel types, while Scizor takes advantige of ice type moves.
4: Water Type
They switch into Kingdra and fire types and check Landorus-T that might want to switch in to Intimidate the Scizor. Lv51 went with Volcanion that covers both Ferrothorn and Kindra and that allowed him to run Gothitelle in this slow to offer Trick Room support to its team members.
5: Electric Type
Electric Types hit bulky waters and improve the offensive pace of the teams with either immidiate damage output (Tapu Koko) or speedcontrol in tailwind (Zapdos).
6: Zapdos Check
Finallly something Scizor struggles against is Zapdos that either gets of a free Taiwlind against it or KOs it with Heat Wave. Tyranitar and KyuremB are standard check, while Scrafty can switch into it and Fake Out allowing Scizor to set up or Zygarde to hit it with CB Thousand Arrows.

Mega Gardevoir
Jhon Gardevoir + Scarf Hoopa

Marilli Sash Marshadow


Memoric/Qsns Tapu Bulu


Biosci Kingdra Rain


1: Gardevoir Mega
2: Fire Type Check

Gardevoir can struggle against fire types like Heatran or Charizard Y that can switch into its fairy type moves. Landorus provides Intimidate and a ground immunity, Tyranitar can counter sun and work as a sweeper with CB under Trick Room, while Politoed sets rain for Kingdra.
3: Salamence Answer
Salamence can be big threat for the relatively slow Gardevoir builds, in the slot players chose either a bulky flying resist that can switch into its flying STABs or something that can directly hit it with a super effective move.
4: Ferrothron/Celesteela Check
All three teams but one decided to run a fire type to cover most of the steel types, while Biosci decided to go with Heat Wave Zapdos that can lure in Ferrothron and hit Celesteela with its STAB Thunder.
5: Grass Type
A strong grass aims to help against rain teams and counter Tapu Fini. Amoongus offers Rage Powder that allows Gardevoir to set up Trick Room, while Tapu Bulu is used for the direct damage output.
6. Metagross Check
Metagross is something that can often get around most steel type checks and can be very problematic for Gardevoir teams. Marshadow is the prefered option as it can outspeed and threaten to OHKO, Jhon chose to run Scarf HoopaU that may bluff Trick Room due to the nature of the team.

Mega Tyranitar
Aurarayquaza 'fire team'

Stax Togekiss

Jhon Excadrill Sand

Memoric Scarf Lele + MTar

1: Tyranitar-Mega
2: Tapu Lele

"I would say scarf lele + mtar is a very good core too, being able to block bp from scizor and also outspeed + ko marsh is huge." - AuraRayquaza in DOU Effective Cores. Tapu Lele is on every featured team for a reason, its a fantastic check to all the fighting types and forms an unresisted core between its psychic and both Tyranitar STABs.
3: Intimidate / Landorus-T Switch In
Intimidate helps the DD Tyranitar set up, while Landorus-T needs to have a solid counter as its the biggest and most common answer to MTar. Jhon decided to go with Excadrill that doesnt switch into Landorus but provides extra offensive support, making use of Tyranitars Sand Stream.
4: Ferrothron / Grass Answer
Ferrothorn is one of the harders Tyranitar counters avaliable, while Amoongus can take take any of its moves even at +2 and put it to sleep with Spore. Volcanion gives the teams a secondary rain answer, while Heatran switches into Tapu Lele better.
5: Redirection / Rain Check
Redirection helps Tyranitar set up Dragon Dances and Amoongus as a grass type also helps check rain sweepers that can outrun it with Swift Swim and threaten with water moves. Stax decided to run Togekiss (that offers Follow Me) in his other slot so he decided to run Ferrothorn as it checks rain even better.
6: Tailwind
Tyranitar is naturally rather slow, so even with Dragon Dance the team requres another form of speed control that will allow it to deal with faster teams, weather sweers or to match opposing Tailwind.

Rain
Frania Thundurus Rain

Demantoid Z Thunder Tapu Koko

MajorBowman Politoed Rain

Nvakna Gengar Rain

1: Rain Setter
Pretty self explanatory, Pelipper tends to be used more often due to its access to moves like Tailwind and U-Turn, but Majorbowman decided to run Politoed that offers more bulk.
2: Swift Swim
Weather Abuser.
3: Steel Type
Takes advantige of Rain weakening fire type moves and switches into psychic types, Ferrothron helps check opposing weather sweepers, while Genesect provides momentum via U-Turn.
4: Grass Type Check (-Ferro)
Grass types like Amoongus or Tapu Bulu can be very problematic for every SS user and thats why you want to decidate a slot to make sure those arent a problem. If you are not running Swampert it can be a Mega Evolution and if you are KyuremB is probably your best choice as it appreciates Pert beeing able to remove its common answers like Marshadow or Metagross.
5: Ferothron Check
As everyone knows Ferrothorn is the biggest rain check and thats why most good teams dedicate a slot just to check it. Marshadow is the most common answer, since it synergizes really well with the SS users (gets unresisted coverage on any target). Landorus-T can Intimidate it and knock of its item, limiting its recovery.
6: Fini Counter
One of the most important rain checks, Tapu Fini can set up Calm Minds on Peliper/Kingdra and threaten Swampert with boosted Muddy Waters. Tapu Koko is used on most teams, making use of 100 accurate Thunders in rain it almost always threatens an OHKO on unboosted FI, i decided to run Thundurus as it offers neutral damage on Ferrothron and supereffective on grass types.

Semi-Trick Room
Matame Nature Power Koko

miltankmilk Fire Punch Lax

Marilli Tapu Lele SemiTR

Jhon CB Tyranitar

miltankmilk Gengar

1: Mega Evolution
Most often SemiTr teams choose to run Salamence as their Mega of choice. It offers Intimidate, Tailwind with its mixed flying coverage it synergizes well with HoopaU and can offer a strong fast most option for this kind of team. Alternative options inlude Gengar that can revenge kill with its high base speed and allow the team to position better with Shadow Tag, while Gardevoir is able to set up Trick Room and check KyuremB.
2: Salamence Counter
Due to the slower nature of the team a mixed sweeper like Salamence could be very problematic. Every team chooses a strong flying resists that can either take its hits comfortably or outspeed and OHKO it.
3: Rain Check
A bulky water or grassy is necessary for the team not to get overpowered by rain. Most players choose Tapu Fini as it also allows HoopaU to run Misty Seed but Amoongus is also an interesting option that helps set up Trick Room with redirection.
4: Trick Room Setter
The core member of the team, HoopaU is the most common choice, due to its fantastic special defense and ability to break protect with Hyperspace Fury/Hole. Jhon decided to go with more offensive set with Choice Scarf to catch his opponents off guard (while using his Mega Evolution to set up TR).
5: Fast Mode Suport
Helps function Salamence outside of Trick Room. Players have a little bit more freedom here: Marilli decided to go with Tapu Lele allowing Amoongus to use Spore with Psychic Terrain Support, Jhon decided to go with Z move Marshadow that can deal strong neutral damage to almost any target. Miltankmilk and Matame decided to go with Curse Snolax that can funtion both inside and outside of TR.
6: Ferrothorn/Metagross Check
Both steel types can threaten this kind of team offensively: the former in TR and the latter outside of it. Matame decided to forgo a direct way of hitting Ferrothorn, instead using it as a set up bait for Snorlax. There also funtion variants of the team where it turns Fire Punch over High Horsepower.

Psyspam
Nvakna Psychic Seed Milotic

Z Strats Mega Gyarados

miltankmilk Psychium Deoxys

Marilli Rain + Psyspam

1: Tapu Lele
Terrain Setter.
2: Deoxys-A
Terrain Abuser.
3: Tailwind
While Deoxys and Tapu Lele (possibly Choice Scarf) make up for a fast duo already, they often need Tailwind to either outrun faster CS users or opposing weather sweepers. Nvakna decided to run better coverage on his Salamence over any speedcontrol options and rely on his defensive backbone to handle opposing sweapers.
4: Rain Check
The psyspam core is outspeed and ohko'd by any viable weather sweeper so naturally the team needs a way of checking them. Marilli decided not to run a traditional rain counter, instead he chose to have his own Draco Meteor Kingdra that at least forces a speed tie and a -2 drop in the worse case scenario.
5: Steel Type Check
Steel types are one thing that psychic types can't break through and while every team featured here uses a diffrent pokemon in this slot all are used to break though the most common steels.
6: Steel Type
Another member with defensive utility purpose, steel types help check opposing Scarf Lele/Psyspam teams. Metagross is a worth noting choice as it also benifits from the Psychic Terrain.

image.png
Hail
Matame Scarf Victini

Frania Diancie Hail

Jhon Overheat Mew

miltankmilk Specs Koko

1: Hail Setter
Ninetales-A offers both Aurora Veil, sets Hail and is the natural choice for the most offensive teams. Abomasnow is bulkier, can work as a trick room attacker, provides Hail for another pokemon to set up Aurora Veil.
2: Steel Type
Insures the team can handle fairy types like Tapu Lele or Gardevoir. Miltankmilk went with Marshadow that doesnt switch in, but can punish all the things steel types switch into.
3: Steel Answer
Needs to cover Ferrothorn, very important member as the first two members stuggle againt steel types. Both Fire and fighting types synergize well with Ninetales-A and Abomasnow. Vicitini allows hail teams to revenge Metagross, Volcarona takes advantige of the Aurora Veil boost to set up Quiver Dances, while Volcanion can also work in Trick Room.
4: Fires Check
Another weakness you need to cover is fire, Zygarde can check all fire types while befiniting from the Aurora Veil boost, Tyranitar provides a strong defensive backbone and Landorus-T sets up Stealth Rocks and neutralizes threats like Marshadow with Intimidate.
5: Defensive/Offensive Utility
Every Hail team needs a water resist just in case opposing Rain setters switch in on it, while Electric + Ice is one of the most consistant typing combos avaliable. The former reason is why Tapu Fini is the favoured choice, as it also helps as a secondary fire type switch in, while Tapu Koko and Zapdos can make use of the good synergy with the hail setter and offer either revenge killing ability or speedcontrol.
6: Trick Room/Mega Evolution
Depending on your first slot, here you decide either on your Mega Evolution of choice or the Trick Room setter for Mega Abomasnow. Salamence is the favoured option for the former as it provides Intimidate and can eiher provide speedcontrol via Tailwind or make use or Aurora Veil with Dragon Dance. Mew is prefered as the TR setter as it can set up AV and beeing able to run interesting techs like Overheat, while Diancie can help against Stealth Rocks (with Magic Bounce) that is often used to pressure hail.

General checklist:
  • 1 Mega Evolution
  • Form of speedcontrol
  • At least 1 Ground immunity
  • At least 1 Steel Type check (you need to cover both Celesteela and Ferrothorn)
  • At least 1 Psychic Spam check
  • At least 1 Tapu Fini check
  • At least 1 Marshadow check
  • At least 1 Kyurem-B check
  • At least 1 Zapdos check
  • At least 1 Snorlax check
  • At least 1 Hoopa-U check
  • At least 1 Eruption Heatran check
  • At least 1 Venusaur check
  • At least 2 Rain soft checks (both for Swampert and Kingdra)
Individual player teambuilding process:

miltankmilk - http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/doubles-ou-teambuilding-frameworks.3619759/#post-7568877
AuraRayquaza - http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/doubles-ou-teambuilding-frameworks.3619759/#post-7568911
Matame, Z Strats, talkingtree, Level 51, Jhon - http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/doubles-ou-teambuilding-frameworks.3619759/#post-7603679
Memoric - http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...semiroom-snake-team-peaked-suspect-1.3620515/

The point of noticing frameworks like this isn't to limit creativity or say "you MUST build this way." this framework catalogue exists as a resource for when you're starting out on a new team to help you take a top level thing and put your own spin on it.

I really want to make frameworks for Mega Diancie, Venusaur or Charizard Y, but you guys gotta start winning with them more so i have some material. Hope you enjoy.
 

miltankmilk

please tell me you're seeing this too.
is a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
#2
Here are my teambuilding thoughts on some of my teams that were included
This team started from the idea of Specs Koko + Mega Abomasnow. Offensively this core is pretty potent with nothing resisting BoltBeam coverage while also covering a range of speed tiers, able to function in and out of trickroom. The next steps of the team were finding ways to better dent Steels like ferro and tran; my solution was a core of Z marsh and Volcanion. I've been loving Volcanion for a while and I felt it fit well on this sort of team with Trick Room support and good ways of breaking past bulky waters that can annoy Volc + a great koko answer in Aboma. Next step was to add trick room and I felt Aurora Veil/Trick room mew would do well here. I saw Jhon try this out as well as Level 51 so I thought I'd put my spin on it. Went with Psychic to hit harsh harder on the switch. Last was shuca Ice Beam tar. This was a glue mon that was able to soft check landorus-t while also handling Gengar via pursuit. Together I think its a pretty cool hail team.

This started pretty last minute but I think it ended up as a pretty complete team. Idea was to build around SD Scizor and see what came out of it. I went with a very fast scizor that outpaces neutral nature Volcanions because I knew I wanted tailwind on this team. I also liked it to generally outspeed Pokemon like Fini, Kyurem-B, Milotic; those sort of middle speed tier mons. Next step in building was CB zyg + zapdos, a balanced core that compliments Scizor quite well in that it deals with both fire types and bulky waters. Zap also gives tailwind and helps vs Lando-t which annoys the first 2. Tapu Fini also helps vs fires, gives Zapdos a misty seed boost and can heal pulse back Zygarde and Scizor. Scrafty provides intimidate and fit better than Lando because of weird type stacking with Zygarde. Fake out is also very nice here as well as knocking off berries for Zygarde and Zapdos. Counter provides a panic check to some physical attackers as well. Last mon was Z move volcanion which is a really cool nuke and sludge bomb lets you hit fini/bulu harder than its Stabs.

This team started with the idea of building lax semiroom. Lax was falling off a bit in usage but I still felt fire punch curse lax was very good. One of its best partners is hoopa because of its role as an offensive trick room setter which can often act as a natural redirection for lax, (that is where its hard for the opponent to not attack hoopa in fear of trick room going up, which can give Lax a free curse). Another pokemon that complimented this well was CB tar, a very strong pokemon that I felt does very well on semiroom teams. Heal pulse fini once again helps ttar/hoopa/lax survive longer and provides a good fighting type answer here. Salamence gives secondary speed control, a secondary fighting answer and generally compliments the weaknesses of ttar and hoopa quite well. Last mon is once again volcanion because of its ability to break steel types and eat up hits while still being very strong.

This was a bit of a weird team but I was inspired to use Z move deo + lele because of how powerful these two are. Kaori and I were also talking a lot about HP fire on Deoxys as a way to catch checks on the switch and not drop stats and keep a "potential sash" in tact. Lele is choice scarf here because the team otherwise lacks a scarfer but this could be changed to a taunt variant of tapu lele for a better trick room answer. Marsh is LO hp ice because I didn't feel shadow sneak fit very well on a psyspam team and Deo already had the team's z move. Amoonguss provided a way to soak up some hits and allow deo to fire off more attacks while also helping Salamence set tailwind. As mentioned, mence sets tailwind and helps to chunk pokemon for marsh and celesteela late game. The celes is a pretty cool set that works as a late game cleaner. Its able to be quite bulky with the Seed boost while also having the coverage to break down a weakened team late game.

hope this is helpful to some people!
 
#3
Ill go into a bit more depth on the mgross + victini team since i rmt'd the m ttar team so my teambuilding process can be found there, with gyarados added by suggestion from stax and clear smog over tect to reflect that change since i needed a way to keep lax in check without lando.

So I built the team before facing toxigen for ssnl, so after metagross had gone 4-0 in snake. Id seen level 51 use hammer arm as coverage which i wanted to try out (originally had brick break for veils owo). I thought victini would be an interesting partner to help break steels and get some nice 1 for 1 trades to potentially give gross some momentum/free turns. Lando was the easy next choice with rocks + max hp to pivot around well and be a decent marsh switchin. Rocks also let gross/tini pick up some nice ohkos/2hkos like v create on marshadow and iron head 2hko on bulkier lando. I was then looking for rain/better mence checks so i added the fini zap core which gives me a nice bit of both. It was initially seed zap but then i realised i didnt have a z move and thought a faster electrium zapdos would be cool after jhon told me about it. Finally i added kyurem b just to solidify the mence/rain matchup, extra speed control and a good volcanion check with hp fire as another way to lure ferro.

Hope this helped!
 
#4
I'm really happy to see this revived - in ORAS this was probably the resource that was most helpful for me to improve as a player.

Although I have a few nitpicks on the fine details of this revamped Frameworks thread, for the most part it looks great and Frania did a great job of compiling a list of solid, high-level teams, so thanks for all of this, Frania!

My first comment is, given how many good teams are in this thread, why not compile a "DOU Starter Pack" so those keen to get good at DOU (or even experienced users that just want a fresh perspective on the meta) can easily test and cycle through all these teams? I've conveniently gone ahead and compiled all of the above teams into a single Hastebin, in case people want to do a bulk download of all of them: https://hastebin.com/wuyekecero.diff

(To import these, go into your teambuilder, go down to the bottom, and select "Backup/Restore all teams." Paste the above hastebin content to the bottom of the text that shows up in your Backup/Restore text.)

Now, for my specific comments re: this initial version of the Frameworks:
  • Mega Salamence
    • Arguably, Tyranitar isn't a Psyspam check - especially now that Z Move Deoxys-A is more popular and doesn't care about sand chip damage. I think the teams you selected for this framework are great, but most of them already have Psyspam checks that aren't TTar. Level 51 had Aegislash, Marilli has Mew and Ferrothorn, and qsns has a Deoxys-A mirror. If there isn't another role you can assign to this slot, imo there's no harm in just making this a "filler" slot given Salamence builds tend to be pretty forgiving in terms of team composition, but "Psyspam Check" doesn't really resonate with me given that 3/4 of these teams are using TTar in this slot.
  • Mega Gengar
    • Where you mention Tapu Lele - another really important reason why all these teams run Lele is because Mega Gengar loses to Marshadow without protection against Shadow Sneak.
  • Psyspam
    • I'd just list another version of the rain Psyspam team that has Marshadow > Zygarde, since that's arguably the most common composition for this build. You could use Miltankmilk's version of this team since it's already a sample, but really, it's such a common build that there's probably no shortage of teams you could post here. But yeah, there should definately be a Marsh Rain Psyspam team here since Marsh arguably beats down Ferrothorn / steels more efficiently than Zygarde.
 
#5
Thanks for the feedback GenOne, on the Salamence framework i decided to list Tyranitar as a Psyspam Check, since some of these teams appriciate sand breaking the Deo sash + a CS user that is able to rk it, as much as if they were to run a proper counter. You bring up a good point about Gengar, ill add that. While Marshadow is the more common option (featured on 3/4 rain teams) Zygarde has a case for itself, with its surperior bulk and diffrent typing. Marilli also runs Hammer Arm Metagross so Ferrothorn shouldn't be as much of a problem. I try to keep the teams diverse, so id rather avoid having two teams in one framework by the same builder.
 
#7
I would recommend adding back the general checklist as well. Otherwise, great job!

General checklist as it was before:
  • 2 Fire resists/counters
  • 1 Ground immunity
  • 2 Steels checks
  • At MOST 2 pokemon that have difficulty dealing with Steel-Types
  • At least 1 Steel Type
  • At least 2 Soft Psychic Spam checks
  • Counters for both Celesteela AND Ferrothorn
  • At least 1 Hoopa-U counter
  • At least 1 Water-resist
  • At least 2 Mega Salamence counters
 
#8
laptops Hey i eas concidering adding something like that looking at the older threads, but ultimately i decided against it. While i was writing the frameworks for all the included playstyles i tried to explain all the nessesary things for each style and i don't think something like this could be very usefull. For example for offensive teams you probably always want a Zapdos check, but i wouldn't say it's needed for semitr teams. Some teams can get away with running CB Lando+mixed Mence for Ferrothorn, while some need a dedicated counter. If im wrong you guys can PM me/like laptops post but for now im not going to include anything like this, i think it pretty subjective (e.g. how many mence checks do you really need) and doesn't go with the idea of team specific frameworks.
 
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Checkmater

a pinned butterfly is no butterfly at all
is a Pre-Contributor
#11
I like the general checklist and I feel most of your issues with it arise from interpreting it as a stringent "must-follow" guideline, whereas it's more of an outline. Yeah, you don't always have to have a Ferrothorn counter, but generally you want to have one on most teams. The Roles Compendium first off fulfills a very different function while also not really giving you that checklist and degree to which certain things need to be dealt with. In addition, the Roles Compendium visually is a lot more "noise" or "data" than the general checklist is, in terms of how accessible they are as team building tools - it's more a tool of "ok what can I put when I think I have issues with x" rather than "what are all the boxes I need to check that I may be looking over for my team". The checklist ended up on frameworks mainly because it's both a useful teambuilding tool and also something that circled around but never had a thread to be put into (the original checklist was created and passed around by Stratos during gen 6 before being put into the thread).

Overall I don't think it hurts

also to address one thing

For example for offensive teams you probably always want a Zapdos check, but i wouldn't say it's needed for semitr teams
If the req being checked off in this example is "Zapdos Check" then having TR would be that zap check (ie hoopa beats zap easily both bc tr > twind and bc of coverage stuff)



Onto a more general comment on frameworks, I found it easier to understand if the clearer, more directly interactive roles were placed earlier (ie X-type, or literal X-mon) while things that were more nebulous or varied more between the teams were placed later. Also, could we retitle the semi-tr framework into a "Mence+Hoopa-U" fw? Ordering frameworks by approximate viability could be helpful (ie psyspam and rain before hail)

Overall loving this update, really glad someone took over the frameworks thread and did the work to give it a much needed revitalization!
 
#12
- added checklist
- the order of the frameworks is: mega evolutions in terms of viability, then playstyles in terms of viability.
- if you have any ideas more specific on how to improve the team roles on frameworks i made so far feel free to suggest it here/pm me and ill concider it. only two frameworks (mence and hail) have a slot that isnt a very direct role and in both cases it is in the 5th slot, so i dont really see whats the issue is?
- i like the semiroom name better for the mence-hoopa framework just so i can add something thats not limited to that in the future. you can run hoopa on a salamence offense so i dont want people to be confused on why all the teams there include trick room
 
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#13
ok so what i gathered from team dumps and other resources:

from Matame:
Ok so this is a team I've been working on for a while now and it's fairly consistent. It mostly revolves around the flexible pivot Nature Power Tapu koko and supporting its ability to volt switch on threats and wear down teams with dual stab. Misty Terrain gives it much needed single target fairy stab. Fini set is standard Cm which can set up on slower bulky teams while also preventing status. Salamence helps get rid of Bulu and Landorus, and can either be used early game to deal hefty damage to shit or used to clean up later when Snorlax has wore down its threats. Ferro is another great powerhouse with band that beats electrics like Koko and fairies, dealing a shitton to switches with gyro balls and being able to wear down bulkier mons with seeds, while also increasing its longevity. The hoopa and Snorlax core is effective both early on and later to be able to beat offense and set up Snorlax so that the opponent is forced to pressure it.

from Z Strats:
This is my version of the well known psyspam core. I unfortunately didn't get to use signal beam Deo-A which I liked for luring and ohkoing Hoopa in ssnls, however I was able to pull it off in test matches and I really like it. I then have scarf flamethrower Genesect to deal with scarf mons that beat psyspam like opposing scarf Genesect and Lando-T. Next I wanted something hat would just destroy Heatran and other steel types so I went with Lando-I since it doesn't have to worry about Aegislash wide guarding and always ohkos Heatran through shuca berry. I then added Zapdos because I didn't want completely no bulk on my team and Zapdos is really good at getting tailwind up for when my team needs it. (opposing tailwind/rain) Now the mega slot has changed between Blastoise and Gyarados. I originally had Blastoise against Frania since I could have a bulky mon (bulkier than Mence since it runs bulk) that deals with steels better. Gyarados also helps with steels but is less bulkier for intimidate on the team which helps Zapdos set up tailwind when needed.

from talkingtree:
I definitely wanted to use Assault Vest Kyurem-B, because it's a set that I didn't really understand but had seen others praising, and Marshadow, to get a feel for its place in the meta. Kyurem-B is generally a great pick on the ladder to ignore abilities and be safe from Shedinja shenanigans or other surprises. Next, I definitely needed a check to Fairy-types, and Mega Metagross would struggle with opposing Marshadow, so I decided to give Mega Scizor a go. To help out my priority users, I added two non-Lele island guardians, Fini to check Rain and Koko to check Waters and Celesteela. Finally, no Intimidate, so Lando-T was a clear option.

When getting into sets, I was curious to try Marshadium Z, if I'm being honest it was mostly for the animation but it also happens to fit pretty well on this team. Mega Scizor has Light Metal because there's no reason to attack non-Mega anyway and this makes it a better switchin to Low Kick. Fini and Koko are pretty standard sets, Heal Pulse support is great for my first three - a setup sweeper, a bulky tank, and a stat stealer. Finally, n10sit told me that I was weak to Genesect, so I decided to use Yache Berry Landorus-T. This also let me add Stealth Rock, which is quite useful for Zard, Volcarona, Focus Sash mons, and the various Pokemon that would otherwise be able to take +2 Bullet Punch from Mega Scizor. Dropping Protect was a pretty risky move, but Earthquake for STAB, Knock Off for removing Genesect's Choice Scarf and taking on Aegislash, and Stone Edge to beat Zapdos 1v1 all seemed pretty crucial, and the set is bulky enough that it doesn't really miss Protect.

from Level 51:
Since I don't usually build teams around my speed control option, I had some vague idea that I wanted to use some sort of balance team with Suicune. Unoriginal and VGC-idea-thief Level 51 thus decided that it would be a good idea to run a version of the Sand balance archetype that dominated post-Worlds VGC 2015. Of course, it wouldn't be until semifinals that I actually had the balls to use the Pokemon that I personally called out in the same post in which I enthused about Gothitelle, and thus I eschewed it in favour of Tapu Lele as a "fast Sand abuser". In another departure from the standard choice, I also decided to use a Tyranitar with SR and Pursuit to put some dents in what I presumed would be a switch-heavy team from Jake[his Snake Draft opponent].

I've explained this like 2738492348 times to anyone who tries to shittalk Gothitelle, but Gothitelle + Scizor is amazing. Scizor is a Pokemon that does well against most of the format but struggles with a few things: it has a bad time with being chipped slowly due to its lack of a moveslot for Roost, it lands just on the wrong side of getting a few KOs, especially if it's Intimidated, and most importantly, it's 100% forced out by almost any Fire-type that switches into it. Gothitelle fixes both these problems, and more: it prevents Fire-types from switching in, usually; it traps Fire-types that are already in so that Volcanion and Landorus-T can take care of them; it pushes Scizor's offensive capabilities over the edge with Helping Hand; it provides healing for Scizor in the form of Heal Pulse; and it even offers the team an additional Trick Room option for Scizor and Volcanion to take care of. Volcanion in particular appreciates being able to make use of its neat Fire/Water STAB coverage without the opponent switching out a lot. Finally, there's the Koko / KyuB combination to round out the team and give it some immediate speed and bulk. I really like this team and I think it was my favourite from the whole of Snake, so props to Nido-Rus for that :P

from Jhon:
Basic Gardevoir Tailroom stuff for the most part.
Super bulky Landorus was to better take on Heatran in TR if need be, among other things. EV'd to survive a Heatran Eruption in sun (15/16), and KO 252/0 back with Superpower.
My own Heatran has Chople to let it better take on PsySpam and Marshadow.
I chose Scarf Hoopa for two reasons. 1) I wanted something to help handle Deo, Marsh, Terrak stuff without any setup needed. 2) I knew looking at the team it would just scream TR, surprise scarf Hoopa is something I thought might just steal a key mon. It's EV'd to outspeed neutral nature Deo-A, and to ohko Terrak/Marsh with Hyperspace Hole.
 
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