to quote someone else amoonguss isn't a win condition and mega venusaur is. Comparison isn't really very accurate imo
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Lower Tiers Doubles OU Viability Rankings
- Thread starter kamikaze
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I tried mega venusaur a while ago so i'll give my thoughts. I agree with the idea that amoonguss and venusaur aren't really comparable. While mega venusaur is a cool win condition in theory, unlike ferrothorn, who i think is the most similar mon, it just doesnt have enough resists to wall enough things, and the lack of weaknesses dont cover for that. It also direly needs leftovers recovery, which it obviously cant have. In an offensive oriented metagame dominated by kang and charizard, both of whom easily overwhelm it, I just dont think venusaur is at all viable and doesnt deserve a rank at all.
Also, why in god's name is politoed tier 2? Every other tier 2 mon is a huge threat in some capacity. Politoed provides rain, thats literally it minus admittedly great encore shenanigans. Its not a rain threat. It doesnt fit in rain by abusing it or covering for a rain weakness, it just provides it. Its also not like rain is some super dominant playstyle. Part of the tier 3 description is "provides a valuable niche on a certain type of team" which fits toed to a t.
Edit: Also checkmater scrafty + mega gengar is a cool core ive been using with a lot of success. I also heartily second the kyub nomination
Also, why in god's name is politoed tier 2? Every other tier 2 mon is a huge threat in some capacity. Politoed provides rain, thats literally it minus admittedly great encore shenanigans. Its not a rain threat. It doesnt fit in rain by abusing it or covering for a rain weakness, it just provides it. Its also not like rain is some super dominant playstyle. Part of the tier 3 description is "provides a valuable niche on a certain type of team" which fits toed to a t.
Edit: Also checkmater scrafty + mega gengar is a cool core ive been using with a lot of success. I also heartily second the kyub nomination
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Politoed should not be tier 3 lmao. It's not a niche on rain when it's the premier weather setter. Tier 2 desribes it perfectly "only fits on a specific team style and requires heavy support".
Politoed's base 90 SpA actually hurts with Specs if you want to go that route too, STAB Specs Hydro Pump in rain fucking ends shit
I mean, granted, yes you can put choice specs/band on things and they hit hard, im not denying that. But that doesnt change the fact that politoed is complete liability more often than not when it is on the field. And are you really even so sure its the premier setter when tornadus and thundurus can be used offensively and jirachi can defensively? I dont believe that it is. It is good at one thing and one thing only, and to me, that means not tier 2.
politoed is good and almost 100% autoinclude for rain
manual rain has been experimented with but not proven
and that's almost 100% the description of tier 2 so idk why you want to move it down
while it does have 90 base spA you have to factor that it gets 1.5x power (a really big multiplier)
Sure it's slow but it's a crucial part of most rain squads
manual rain has been experimented with but not proven
and that's almost 100% the description of tier 2 so idk why you want to move it down
while it does have 90 base spA you have to factor that it gets 1.5x power (a really big multiplier)
Sure it's slow but it's a crucial part of most rain squads
Noms
Rises
tier 1.5>1
"Pokemon that have a good matchup vs a large portion of the metagame, are either quite powerful or offer great team support, and can fit on almost any team. You can't really go wrong by using these Pokemon."
OK I get that it did badly in winter seasonal. That was ages ago and Thundurus is good, I'm guessing it always lost because people weren't using the fast Thundy at the time which is the superior set. Never dead weight with Twave/Swagger/Tbolt/HP Ice/Flash Cannon, you just choose what your team needs and go from there. Also can use loads of items like Life Orb, Zap Plate, Safety Goggles, and Sash on the fast set. Good ass mon.
tier 1.5>1
Again, no deadweight matchups. Sub tran is great vs Trick Room and balanced teams, can be used on Trick Room with sub, shuca 3 attacks, or eruption + charcoal. Fits perfectly well on sun teams or against them. Shuca 3 attacks is pretty uncommon because Sub is so good, but with Flash Cannon or HP Ice you can take out the biggest threats to Heatran.
Drops
tier 1 > 2'
Big momentum suck vs. teams with dragons or Hyper Voice fairies. Faces competition from Keldeo for water slot and as a bulky support mon from Thundurus who is pretty much better in every way. Just isn't up to par with the other rank 1 mons. No idea how this didn't get voted down last time it was nommed to drop, but if Kyurem-B and Heatran aren't worthy of rank 1 then there's no way washtom is.
tier 2'>3
Just isn't good unless it's on hail, and is unarguably worse than the other 2's besides maybe Mamoswine. Not much else to say here.
tier 2'>3
Speaking of Mamo, also should drop. The description of tier 3 is "edge of viability" and that sounds perfect for pig. Yes it has a good matchup vs genies and Heatran. Still poor.
tier 3>UR
When was the last time someone even used this? I bet it didn't win
Rises
"Pokemon that have a good matchup vs a large portion of the metagame, are either quite powerful or offer great team support, and can fit on almost any team. You can't really go wrong by using these Pokemon."
OK I get that it did badly in winter seasonal. That was ages ago and Thundurus is good, I'm guessing it always lost because people weren't using the fast Thundy at the time which is the superior set. Never dead weight with Twave/Swagger/Tbolt/HP Ice/Flash Cannon, you just choose what your team needs and go from there. Also can use loads of items like Life Orb, Zap Plate, Safety Goggles, and Sash on the fast set. Good ass mon.
Again, no deadweight matchups. Sub tran is great vs Trick Room and balanced teams, can be used on Trick Room with sub, shuca 3 attacks, or eruption + charcoal. Fits perfectly well on sun teams or against them. Shuca 3 attacks is pretty uncommon because Sub is so good, but with Flash Cannon or HP Ice you can take out the biggest threats to Heatran.
Drops
Big momentum suck vs. teams with dragons or Hyper Voice fairies. Faces competition from Keldeo for water slot and as a bulky support mon from Thundurus who is pretty much better in every way. Just isn't up to par with the other rank 1 mons. No idea how this didn't get voted down last time it was nommed to drop, but if Kyurem-B and Heatran aren't worthy of rank 1 then there's no way washtom is.
Just isn't good unless it's on hail, and is unarguably worse than the other 2's besides maybe Mamoswine. Not much else to say here.
Speaking of Mamo, also should drop. The description of tier 3 is "edge of viability" and that sounds perfect for pig. Yes it has a good matchup vs genies and Heatran. Still poor.
When was the last time someone even used this? I bet it didn't win
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I'd argue heatran has deadweight matchups vs HO and Rain
also it's weak af :/ but really good typing / ability which makes subtran successful
speaking from experience I'm never afraid of subtran when running HO, same with Rain
Darkrai:
idk I feel like you could explain more here? Is it bad coverage, bad typing, forced out by x threats/teamstyles?
In my experience darkrai is a very good latios counter while also having the fastest burn, maybe someone who's used it more than on one team can elaborate
also it's weak af :/ but really good typing / ability which makes subtran successful
speaking from experience I'm never afraid of subtran when running HO, same with Rain
Darkrai:
idk I feel like you could explain more here? Is it bad coverage, bad typing, forced out by x threats/teamstyles?
In my experience darkrai is a very good latios counter while also having the fastest burn, maybe someone who's used it more than on one team can elaborate
I mean, technically you could argue that Heatran somewhat beats a few of the non water type Rain mons, but will it ever be able to do this with Rain active or against one of the water types on the team? This situation is fairly comparable to Latios and Kyurem-B being able to beat Landorus-T on offense but still losing to a Mega Diancie/Mega Kangaskhan/Mega Gardevoir/Sylveon; it may be able to check the one thing on the archetype, but you will rarely see it in action.
I'm not quite sure about it being dead weight against HO. Most Heatrans do lose to Keldeo and Landorus-T while not faring off well against Mega Kangaskhan and Mega Diancie, but Heatran can still deal great amounts of damage to Landorus-T and Mega Kangaskhan, even if both of those are winning. Heatran also beats other Heatrans that may be on HO, which of course is a great thing to be able to do lol. It hates HO but it's not what Rain is to Heatran.
I'm not quite sure about it being dead weight against HO. Most Heatrans do lose to Keldeo and Landorus-T while not faring off well against Mega Kangaskhan and Mega Diancie, but Heatran can still deal great amounts of damage to Landorus-T and Mega Kangaskhan, even if both of those are winning. Heatran also beats other Heatrans that may be on HO, which of course is a great thing to be able to do lol. It hates HO but it's not what Rain is to Heatran.
I mean, what support does it need though? It doesnt need a team that allows it to shine, it just needs a team that covers for the fact that it sucks, which nobody really seems to be acknowledging. I guess its kinda semantics since I'm not really advocating for people not to use it, I just think it misleads a newer player into thinking, "oh wow politoed must be a big threat, its tier 2", especially when rain is probably closer to sand than it is to sun and hail.
Rain itself is the threat to worry about. Politoed almost defines rain teams as a whole; without it there are many difficulties to Rain's use such as getting weather up. The only good Politoed-less Rain teams have it bad in later stages of the game when their weather setter is heavily damaged and has to risk switching in to use Rain Dance rather than Politoed having excellent bulk and resetting Rain right when it switches in.
It is true that it doesn't need heavy support. That's because it literally is the heavy support that things like Ludicolo, Mega Swampert, and Kingdra may need. It doesn't need a team to cover up for its terrible offenses because it's generally pure utility. Either way, its offenses aren't really that bad anyway; Rain boosted Scalds and Hydro Pumps coming off a base 90 Special Attack is surely nothing to laugh at.
Riachu to be added to tier 3
very good support
very good support
Stratos
Banned deucer.
Normal Diancie 3 -> UR
this pokemon's actually complete shit lmfao, my b guys. nice weaknesses to everything that already plagues tr teams. nice ability to get around spore and taunt.
Escavalier 3 -> UR
I've still never seen a team that couldnt use something else that would do better. Its whole "be generically bulky and slow and hit hard" thing kind of works in VGC because switching around and the ability to either switch or punish switchins isn't so big but in doubles it just sucks ass. Sure maybe it works on one in a million TR teams somehow but if we ranked every generic mediocre TR attacker we'd run out of space on this list. sure it hard counters amoonguss but heres a pro tip: anything @ safety goggles
Mega Mawile 3 -> UR
probably not gonna happen but i can try. this thing is also no good. are you trying to use it on tr? nice amoong bait nice aegis bait nice subtran bait. are you not trying to use it on tr? are u retarded
Porygon2 UR -> 3
if youve seen me play with that one TR team youll know why im making this nomination. lots of teams just dont have a good way to beat this pokemon, full stop
this pokemon's actually complete shit lmfao, my b guys. nice weaknesses to everything that already plagues tr teams. nice ability to get around spore and taunt.
Escavalier 3 -> UR
I've still never seen a team that couldnt use something else that would do better. Its whole "be generically bulky and slow and hit hard" thing kind of works in VGC because switching around and the ability to either switch or punish switchins isn't so big but in doubles it just sucks ass. Sure maybe it works on one in a million TR teams somehow but if we ranked every generic mediocre TR attacker we'd run out of space on this list. sure it hard counters amoonguss but heres a pro tip: anything @ safety goggles
Mega Mawile 3 -> UR
probably not gonna happen but i can try. this thing is also no good. are you trying to use it on tr? nice amoong bait nice aegis bait nice subtran bait. are you not trying to use it on tr? are u retarded
Porygon2 UR -> 3
if youve seen me play with that one TR team youll know why im making this nomination. lots of teams just dont have a good way to beat this pokemon, full stop
why not make a 4th???
I agree with porygon and escav, but not the others
I use a safety goggles follow me on my tr team like toge or jirachi and weakness policy diance is very good.
idk about mawile tbh
I agree with porygon and escav, but not the others
I use a safety goggles follow me on my tr team like toge or jirachi and weakness policy diance is very good.
idk about mawile tbh
Sylveon is arguably far more viable than volc or mvenu, it's definitely a huge threat on trick room or even on chalk squads outside of fullroom or just with tailwind
Admittedly it's not tier 1 or 1.5 good but I think it's good enough for 2
Fairy coverage is just so amazing that sylveon is arguably the best trick room sweeper maybe on par with Camerupt-Mega
Admittedly it's not tier 1 or 1.5 good but I think it's good enough for 2
Fairy coverage is just so amazing that sylveon is arguably the best trick room sweeper maybe on par with Camerupt-Mega
i thought the best trick room poke was hoopa-u :\
But yeah I agree with check here, unprepared teams just get stomped by Sylveon, although it isn't as great lately.
But yeah I agree with check here, unprepared teams just get stomped by Sylveon, although it isn't as great lately.
I mean, Sylveon isn't blatantly outclassed by M-Gard mainly because M-Gard is a Mega and doesn't hit as hard, with the tradeoff of being able to switch moves and being faster. Sylveon hits like a TRUCK to a level M-Gard could only dream of and functions better under TR - and functions well enough outside of it to be a good pick for semiroom or even vs. opposing TR. They should share a rank IMO.
hippowdon to rank 3
the sand setter not destroyed by landoT
should be in same class as politoed
the sand setter not destroyed by landoT
should be in same class as politoed
you know the great benefits of sand.
but also Hippodown does stealth rock + roar for 2hko on Volcarona, charY, and Talon.
ice fang on landoT
politoed on the other hand just dies from Thundy and every other electric which does nothing to Hippo
roar is also a trick room counter.
but also Hippodown does stealth rock + roar for 2hko on Volcarona, charY, and Talon.
ice fang on landoT
politoed on the other hand just dies from Thundy and every other electric which does nothing to Hippo
roar is also a trick room counter.
It doesn't "die" to every electric type. It has great bulk, sustaining a 2HKO from lots of se hits. Politoed also isn't weak to the entire sand/hail/sun archetype, while hippo is weak to both hail and rain.
Not to mention Hippo actually does "just die" to almost every water type that is relevant, as well as some of the specially oriented offensive grasses like Serperior or Whimsi.
are you implying Hippowdown is better than politoed
idk I think Hippo is interesting + Hippo>Ttar sounds ok but sand in general kind of feels a little 3/10 as a team
What does hippo provide really? I get rocks but that's not really super valuable imo
From what I've seen it's paired on a team that doesn't really need the sand so like why are you using this thing? @.@
maybe you could post some teams or something that showcase good usage of sand and hippo
What does hippo provide really? I get rocks but that's not really super valuable imo
From what I've seen it's paired on a team that doesn't really need the sand so like why are you using this thing? @.@
maybe you could post some teams or something that showcase good usage of sand and hippo
Stratos
Banned deucer.
i dont, is it so u can use all the sand rush ground types w/ great typing synergy with hippowdon or all the tier's viable special defense boosted rock type pokemon
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