Lower Tiers Doubles OU Viability Rankings

[Checkmater]

Ok if you're not running quick guard/taunt just to snipe char y fine

and do we even still think of washtom as tier 1? and even then you just get burned immediately and it's a momentum suck

Not to mention losing to a load of mons such as aegislash, any grass, fairies, etc

The real issue is that not only does it lose to tr and sun but it also gets hard-rekt by anything it can't hit super-effectively and has way too many switchins

Like you can't rank a mon by how many mons in tier 1 it 1v1s, and these 1v1s are shaky too.

In my eyes, the tier 3 description fits perfectly.

Pokemon which are on the edge of viability. Here either through good matchups with a few specific top threats (such as Infernape vs Aegislash, Amoonguss, and Kangaskhan or Milotic vs Landorus-T), or because they fulfill a valuable niche on a certain type of team (such as Kingdra on Rain or Rhyperior on Tailwind). Just because a Pokemon worked on a single team does not mean it belongs here.

If you think it's an anti-meta mon then it obviously deserves to be in tier 3.

Beyond that it's seen little to no success in seasonal/room tours/any matches I've ever seen, which says a lot about it too.

 

[megacyber]

Didn't Las use it in Winter Seasonals Finals? It might've been Deo, I'd need to look at the replays

 

[Bughouse]

Didn't Las use it in Winter Seasonals Finals? It might've been Deo, I'd need to look at the replays

yes it was used here: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-doublesou-73770
and also here (round 12): http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-doublesou-61314

I've built with it before and I know finally has too. Just because no one is using it doesn't mean it's bad :)
And it certainly got better with Skymin gone.

 

[Checkmater]

Talonflame vote when?

Also time for some noms

3->2

With Skymin gone this is now the fastest pokemon in the meta bar mega aero/deoa/scarfs/weather boosts. It's great because, unlike keldeo, it can dunk fairies and beats many of the base 110 speed (diancie and latios come to mind) while also having a extensive movepool. It can't ohko kang, unlike keldeo, but still deserves a higher place on the tiering list. Typing changes are also pretty nice (for example you can beat keld if you gunk it while it sswords). There's almost nothing in the meta that it can't hit.

1.5->2'

I know this is a swingaround from a previous opinion, but reflecting back on it Thundurus doesn't pull weight. As taunt support it has bad matchups vs nearly all the mons on a trick room team, it suffers from 4mss forcing out protect in most sets, and while prankster skillwave farms salt 9/10 times it often twaves something, dies, then the opponent who got twave'd commonly can still be a threat and force the opp to respect it enough to allow for a sac or even just let it do damage. Especially with skymin gone, this mon seems to have fallen a little too. Given that its coverage is pretty bad (basically only electric with hp ice to snipe landots or fc to snipe diancie), it has lots of matchups where it becomes dead weight, doing nothing while providing reverse momentum for the opponent.

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3->2
All good trick room setters and really deserve a higher place. I don't see why these mons aren't tier 2 when they "only fit a specific team style" which is exactly full room. I would include gourgeist in this list but I've almost never use it/never seen anyone else use it besides the odd match here or there. Also I know stratos has been trying to get people to get off the diancie horse but life orb diancie hits harder than mega diancie. Admittedly it is weak to aegislash but so is every setter and you really shouldn't be picking your tr setter to be your aegis check. I don't know if this is an issue of poor distinction in definition between tier 3 and tier 2 or something else, but if they're good picks for full room I don't see why not tier 2.

1.5->1
Walls a huge portion of the meta and, combined with diancie and a landot check absolutely murders chalk, thalk, talk, and salt. This mon provides great utility both in redirection support and iron head flinches on loads of threats. What really makes me consider Jirachi a tier 1 mon is that, in many matches (for example pgb's seasonal matches come to mind I think and others) it's more approprite to think of Jirachi as a win condition, with the proper setup and the proper play it sets up loads of sweeps and providing clean switches too. Lots of teams will often only have 1 or 2 mons that can touch jirachi, and Jirachi walls loads of threats such as grasses, Kang, fairies, kyube, terrakion, etc. It also has room to pack a speed control move in the form of icy win or thunder wave, or even the odd trick room, making it a threat that not only can redirect but can stop slower mons in their tracks and provide valuable speed control for the team. I don't know if it quite reaches the point where it "shapes the meta" but it definitely defines a huge chunk of many teams. It doesn't have the rotational power of Amoonguss but benefits over it in other ways.

I kinda feel like I just wrote a paragraph about how to use Jirachi but idk those are my thoughts on why I think it deserves tier 1.

2'->1.5
Powerful mon that sets up lots of lategame and earlygame kos, while being able to outspeed the entire metagame. The only real counter to blaziken in the tier 1/tier 1.5 list is Washtom or Thundurus, which speaks a lot for how good its coverage is when it can nuke those threats as well. Running a slower fire blast set is also cool and lets you really sweep entire teams with appropriate positioning and maneuvering. A lot of players have swung back to a building around blaziken, and for good reason: it's a powerful metagame threat. It does have a weakness of having to protect to get going, and talonflame.

 

[n10siT]

ok so this thread doesn't plummet down hill

I haven't seen terrakion get serious use since nam but it is a tier 1.5, why don't people use it more?

 

[xzern]

haha yikes

I think that ppl arent using Terrakion as much mostly because it loses to a vast majority of the tier 1 threats. Keldeo generally checks a wider range of common mons and also beats landorus in the same package. However, I have seen Terrakion grab some usage as a chary killer on rain teams that dont have diancie but overall it is pretty underwhelming from what I've seen

Terrakion could also drop a rank probably, maybe to 2'. It's definitely not as broadly usable as other mons in 1.5 like kyurem or heatran and it doesn't really seem to fit tier 2's description either.

 

[megacyber]

I think Terrak's a bit better after the Skymin ban. It's not as universal as keld, but it's still p good if you want a fighting type that isnt keld. i have some fairly successful terrak teams, but i could kinda go either way on this one. also thundy->2 is dumb

 

[Fangame10]

Terrakion keeps rock sliding my pokemans :-(, pls don't give it more usage.

Tho I do think Terrak is still a pretty good Pokemon that provides a good chary and kanga counter but I do think that 2 is the right tier for it

 

[darzy7]

why is scizor so bad?? it beats fairies easily it should be tier 20

 

[darzy7]

i mean tier 2

 

[Punchshroom]

darzy7 Now I ain't no Doubles expert but from what I can tell, there is very little reason to use Scizor over the other offensive Steel-types in the tier, especially since they are all not affected by Intimidate (Flash Cannon Aegislash, Defiant Bisharp, Clear Body Metagross prior to Mega Evolving) while Scizor is completely neutered, nor does Scizor appreciate the prevalence of threats such as Rotom-W, Keldeo, Mega Charizard Y, Heatran, and Talonflame, which it is helpless against. Metagross still has access to Bullet Punch if you badly desire that.

 

[Fangame10]

I only imagine scizor is useful against diancie, sylveon, and gardevoir if u were like super weak to them. I would mayb use it for bullet punch tr over escavalier but other than tha u rly shouldn't use this thing

 

[Stratos]

every nomination in checks post is bad and heres why

3->2

With Skymin gone this is now the fastest pokemon in the meta bar mega aero/deoa/scarfs/weather boosts. It's great because, unlike keldeo, it can dunk fairies and beats many of the base 110 speed (diancie and latios come to mind) while also having a extensive movepool. It can't ohko kang, unlike keldeo, but still deserves a higher place on the tiering list. Typing changes are also pretty nice (for example you can beat keld if you gunk it while it sswords). There's almost nothing in the meta that it can't hit.

ive never seen this poke used effectively though and it's so frail, if you want to convince me with anything other than theorymon then how about anyone ever actually try winning something with this thing

1.5->2'

I know this is a swingaround from a previous opinion, but reflecting back on it Thundurus doesn't pull weight. As taunt support it has bad matchups vs nearly all the mons on a trick room team, it suffers from 4mss forcing out protect in most sets, and while prankster skillwave farms salt 9/10 times it often twaves something, dies, then the opponent who got twave'd commonly can still be a threat and force the opp to respect it enough to allow for a sac or even just let it do damage. Especially with skymin gone, this mon seems to have fallen a little too. Given that its coverage is pretty bad (basically only electric with hp ice to snipe landots or fc to snipe diancie), it has lots of matchups where it becomes dead weight, doing nothing while providing reverse momentum for the opponent.

skill wave + subtran is actually the biggest threat and when using this combo i can understand why ppl would use defensive thundurus, i just drop yellow magic everywhere and am able to fish for subs. i always thought defensive thundurus was a threat vs offensive teams but terrible vs defensive teams but when u pair it with skill tran then ur even good vs defensive teams so it definitely deserves 1.5

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3->2
All good trick room setters and really deserve a higher place. I don't see why these mons aren't tier 2 when they "only fit a specific team style" which is exactly full room. I would include gourgeist in this list but I've almost never use it/never seen anyone else use it besides the odd match here or there. Also I know stratos has been trying to get people to get off the diancie horse but life orb diancie hits harder than mega diancie. Admittedly it is weak to aegislash but so is every setter and you really shouldn't be picking your tr setter to be your aegis check. I don't know if this is an issue of poor distinction in definition between tier 3 and tier 2 or something else, but if they're good picks for full room I don't see why not tier 2

if u read tier 3's description you'll see that it also has room for pokemon which only work on one team style. tier 2 is for "super duper good but only on one team style" where tier 3 is more "usable but only on one team style." the only poke on this list which could possibly move is reuni.

diancie's also terrible for far more reasons than its aegis matchup.

1.5->1
Walls a huge portion of the meta and, combined with diancie and a landot check absolutely murders chalk, thalk, talk, and salt. This mon provides great utility both in redirection support and iron head flinches on loads of threats. What really makes me consider Jirachi a tier 1 mon is that, in many matches (for example pgb's seasonal matches come to mind I think and others) it's more approprite to think of Jirachi as a win condition, with the proper setup and the proper play it sets up loads of sweeps and providing clean switches too. Lots of teams will often only have 1 or 2 mons that can touch jirachi, and Jirachi walls loads of threats such as grasses, Kang, fairies, kyube, terrakion, etc. It also has room to pack a speed control move in the form of icy win or thunder wave, or even the odd trick room, making it a threat that not only can redirect but can stop slower mons in their tracks and provide valuable speed control for the team. I don't know if it quite reaches the point where it "shapes the meta" but it definitely defines a huge chunk of many teams. It doesn't have the rotational power of Amoonguss but benefits over it in other ways.

I kinda feel like I just wrote a paragraph about how to use Jirachi but idk those are my thoughts on why I think it deserves tier 1.

jirachi is really good at pivotal points in a match for offensive teams but suffers from much the same problems defensive cress does (albeit to a much lesser extent)—that it's literally not even remotely threatening on its own and its entire merit is determined by what it can offer to its partner; that it wants to be healthy and bulky but its lack of any recovery means it has trouble switching in on things—seriously of tier 1 it only comes in entirely safely on guss (only if goggles) with qualified success at switching in on kang and diancie. it's still a good mon, but it doesn't even shape the meta as much as most of the other 1.5s.

2'->1.5
Powerful mon that sets up lots of lategame and earlygame kos, while being able to outspeed the entire metagame. The only real counter to blaziken in the tier 1/tier 1.5 list is Washtom or Thundurus, which speaks a lot for how good its coverage is when it can nuke those threats as well. Running a slower fire blast set is also cool and lets you really sweep entire teams with appropriate positioning and maneuvering. A lot of players have swung back to a building around blaziken, and for good reason: it's a powerful metagame threat. It does have a weakness of having to protect to get going, and talonflame.

blaziken ohkoes like 2/3 of top pokes it's true, that's why it's banned in singles. however it's so fucking awkward to use that it definitely doesnt deserve to be defined as a metagame staple. like 2/3 of the ohkoes it gets it has to protect the previous turn to get, which means that you can't do the whole protect as u switch to a counter thing with ken. also it's tough to switch in because frail af.


Reasons scizor sucks: thanks to diancie u really want ur steel to resist rock. also it has shitty 1v1 matchups w/ like everything good lellers—the top 3 usage wise in doubles is like tran landog aegis. also it's super duper subtran bait.




oh and the talon vote will come when someone updates this thread i guess

 

[n10siT]

1.5->2

Terrakion loses to too many top tier pokemon to really be considered a "generally strong pokemon". It should really only be used if you are specifically weak to Mega Charizard Y or Mega Kangaskhan. If we look at it's tier 1 match ups, it loses to everything that aren't the 2 previously mentioned megas, leaving it at a 2-6 disadvantage. Even when matched up against tier 1.5 pokemon, it has a lot of trouble. It loses to bisharp if the sash is intact, loses to Hoopa U if TR or TW is up, gets para'd by Thundurus, and flat out loses to Mega Metagross, Latios, and Cresselia. Terrakion is a good example of a fringe pokemon between 1.5 and 2, seeing as it really seems better than tier 2's description, but it's top tier matchups are bad enough that it may deserve a drop.

 

[Checkmater]

quoting is too hard so fuck it

greninja:
I'm not theorymonning: I have used it, so has Mizu, its bulk is shit but its speed/coverage make up for that. It's a solid offensive water when team already has fighting coverage. Also imo a mon doesn't have to sweep a tour to be classified as tier 2. Btw I meant 2' not 2 oops

Thundurus:
one good synergy (that gets fucked by diancie, kyube, kang, unless we're assuming that twave always full paras, which it does) doesn't justify rank 1.5 tier, elaborate pls

"Pokemon which, while good, only fit on a specific team style or require heavy support."
Even if they have to be "super good" for tr to be tier 2 Jellicent and Reuniclus definitely fit that profile: Jellicent is the best defensive setter (bar shitsselia if you really like that mon) and Reuniclus reaches the point where it is outclassing other psychic offensive setters

Jirachi:
How is Jirachi not a threatening mon? Comparison to Cress isn't valid because Jirachi can actually impact the field (flinches, speed control) and it redirects and forces out kang/amoonguss/diancie. When everytime half of the mons in tier 1-1.5 have to just run away when they see jirachi and maybe like something a little less than 1/4 of them have alleviating match-ups because of flinches and speed control, I think it deserves tier 1. In addition to fitting much better in the hyper offense mold than Amoonguss, Jirachi doesn't need recovery because: say I force out someone's kang, they bring in aegislash, I've somehow got no switchins, well now I get a free switch and massive momentum not to count the switches I've already forced.

Blaziken:
not sure what you mean by
"you can't do the whole protect as u switch to a counter thing with ken."
maybe you could elaborate a little more on what you mean
also "having to protect turn 1" is a weakness, but not as crippling as you put it out to be. For example, Diancie is a similar mon that falls into this category and the turn diancie is un-mega/out on the field (or blaziken is at unboosted and out on the field) you don't HAVE to protect... I get that it's a swing turn that can go out of your favor and it does qualify as a momentum suck but other than this I don't see how blaziken is awkward to use (not saying blaziken = diancie just trying to put an example). In many of the matches I've seen/played it sets up various 2-mon sweeps and is difficult to stop.

 

[Big_Danny_Mason]

I have used greninja quite a bit in hail and its pretty solid. It also cannot cannot be understated just how amazing having gunk shot is, as greninja is pretty much the only capable physical poison attacker i can think of. With 44 attack ev's, greninja can ohko all of the poison weak fairies, while still being able to take care of diancie with hydro pump, something that sludge bomb darkrai, a similiar mon, can only dream of.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/doublesou-264781888

This replay really highlights greninja strengths, especially when paired with a fighting type, as mentioned above. Keldeo and greninja put a massive amount of pressure on his team, as the combo of blizzard and secret sword devastated every member of his team, a team filled with very popular mons at that.

All this being said, greninja still has a lot of problems. Its still incredibly frail, and is practically useless when paralyzed. On top of that, it lacks raw power, such as in the replay when blizzard failed to ko amoongus, which means that practically any threat that isnt hit supereffectively will ohko it after taking the hit. Im not sure if greninja deserves to be moved up the rankings (I'd vote no to be honest), but it is still a very capable threat.

 

[Kutscher]

unraked-> 20
I know that in most casses he is outclassed by togekiss and other mons, but whimsicott have a few niches over togekiss:
-encore/taunt: a better way of beat trick room than air slash, a way of stop mons that try to use set-up, or mons that try to stall tailwind with protect, and some other utiity.
-Beat up: let´s say the true this is the real reason to use whimsicott, terrakott isn´t as great as it use to be, but still a very good way of beat unprepared teams, the list of mons that would like to take a +6 attack from terrakion is really low; also you can break deoxys-a sash and kill it(nothing special);
-giga drain: you can hit rotom-w and (mega) diancie, mons that togekiss can only die to.

i know whimsicott isn´t a great mon, bur common even tyranitar is in 20 tier because of excadrill, whimsicott deserves 20 tier becasue of terrakion.

 

[Stratos]

20 is worse than unranked

 

[Checkmater]

Also if I'm reading this spreadsheet right Jirachi went 14-6 in last seasonal, granted low sample = higher variance something something numbers but yeah thought I 'd point that out

 

[Kutscher]

so keep this shit unraked, don´deserve tier 3

 

[Fangame10]

Tbh whismicott is used so much by terracott users and luckynbad players that it deserves the tier 20 spot of shame.

 

[Stratos]

Prankster encore is legit tho

 

[Checkmater]

Is it possible that we might get a tier 4? looking through some of the earlier posts in this thread it's hinted at that we could extend the number, and looking at tier 3 a lot of the mons are somewhere between "decent and usable on some teams/fulfills a specific niche" and the others are something like "only ever seen on a handful of teams or was once good in a different meta"

 

[n10siT]

!!! its a good mon just stop using terracott (it also gets swagger : ) )

 

[talkingtree]

I feel like Tier 4 makes us drift too far away from the original intentions of a new ranking system. We don't want to give mons that are very niche or *used* to be good a spot on the Viability rankings because that doesn't accurately represent the meta. Just because something has worked doesn't mean it is generally viable, and if a Pokemon isn't generally viable then it doesn't deserve a place on the rankings. Just my two cents.