Lower Tiers Doubles OU Viability Rankings

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talkingtree

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Sorry for the double post, but I just noticed Serperior is absent from this list. Serperior for Tier 3.

It's weak at first, susceptible to priority, and lacks coverage, but once it gets one Leaf Storm off it's a threat and it even has access to stuff like Glare or Reflect if you wanna go a support-oriented route. Not only that, but it has a great speed tier for a 110s-based meta, outspeeding and KOing top-tier threats like Keldeo and Mega Diancie. And that's without a boost - once boosted by a single Leaf Storm, its Life Orb set OHKO's Mega Kang.

It's frail, predictable, and lacking coverage, but certainly deserving of a place on the rankings.
 
I'd like to add Rampardos to the list. With Trick Room support, it has the potential to destroy everything not named Scrafty. That Life Orb Sheer Force boosted Rock Slide coming off of a Base 165 Atk is absolutely terrifying...
 

derivations

Banned deucer.
While this is true, I do believe Rhyperior can fulfill this role much better. It can support the team better than Rampardos with Lightning Rod if necessary, while also dealing a high amount of damage (though, not as high as Rampardos), which is a really cool thing to do. It also gets STAB Drill Run, which does more than Rampardos EQ by a good amount if necessary. Finally, of course, there's the idea that Rhyperior has much better bulk than Rampardos and can generally do more on a Trick Room team than Rampardos. Rampardos only does better than Rhyperior in the aspect of dealing high amounts of damage that few other things can remotely reach, but it provides little (if anything) else to make it any better an option than Rhyperior in any situation.

It also has cooler coverage and doesn't require a Levitating partner to use EQ if it comes to it, and as you mentioned, Scrafty is a big issue for Rampardos - it can't deal enough damage to beat it, while Rhyperior can Drill Run to deal damage if it is necessary.
 

derivations

Banned deucer.
Sorry for the double post, but I just noticed Serperior is absent from this list. Serperior for Tier 3.

It's weak at first, susceptible to priority, and lacks coverage, but once it gets one Leaf Storm off it's a threat and it even has access to stuff like Glare or Reflect if you wanna go a support-oriented route. Not only that, but it has a great speed tier for a 110s-based meta, outspeeding and KOing top-tier threats like Keldeo and Mega Diancie. And that's without a boost - once boosted by a single Leaf Storm, its Life Orb set OHKO's Mega Kang.

It's frail, predictable, and lacking coverage, but certainly deserving of a place on the rankings.
Speaking of new offensive grasses that aren't that amazing let's talk more about Whimsicott. Offensive Whimsicott has been picking up sort of since the Skymin ban because of its pretty nice coverage (outspeeding and killing Mega Diancie, Latios, Keldeo, Terrakion, and Hydreigon among many others), and its access to Prankster Encore is awesome. Prankster Encore as a whole allows you to lock things into Protect, Wide Guard, Substitute (yes, it passes through subs o_o), Rage Powder, Fake Out, Trick Room, Tailwind, Icy Wind (for when you switch in Bisharp :3), and plenty of other things. It can set weather for its partners if it wants to. It also has the fastest Taunt in the entire game which is pretty fucking dank and can use gimmicky Beat Up strats if it wants to (which, despite all the hate it gets, isn't unviable, just extremely hard to work with).

The only set that should exist for it should be this one

Whimsicott @ Life Orb
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 29 HP / 0 Atk
- Moonblast
- Protect
- Encore / Taunt / Sunny Day / Rain Dance / Tailwind / Beat Up / Worry Seed / Grasswhistle
- Giga Drain / Energy Ball
Note: Italicized things are definitely not recommended. Crossed out things should never be used.


If 4MSS didn't exist I would definitely call this a Tier 2+ Pokemon, but when you look at how badly it affects Whimsicott, it should probably make its way into Tier 3, and nowhere higher. The only really viable set that isn't gimmick related has the third slot switch through a variety of moves, though when you want to use more than one, you have to drop coverage/Protect. This isn't that great for Whimsicott at all whatsoever, and those sets that drop coverage/Protect are generally terrible, as those are necessary in order to fulfill its niche to stop Diancie, Latios, and base 108s. It also just fucking dies to Charizard/Venusaur/Talonflame/Metagross, and can't function after paras (despite boasting an incredibly fast Taunt to stop these Thunder Waves from happening), losing almost all of its offensive presence and having the low 75% chance to move.
 
Actually, Rampardos does have another thing over Rhyperior and that move is called Zen Headbutt. Zen Headbutt gives Rampardos the ability to OHKO most of the Poison and Fighting-Types that would otherwise check it and/or its teammates. The only Poison-Types that can survive are either immune, have a Focus Sash or are physically defensive Amoongus, which BARELY survives. The only Fighting-Type that can survive is Scrafty, which is immune to Zen Headbutt. Rhyperior on the other hand will most likely lose to Breloom, but Rampardos doesn't thanks to Zen Headbutt. I've also figured out a way to get Rampardos to survive a +1 Dragon Claw from Mega Charizard X.
 

Checkmater

It’s just us kittens left, and the rain is coming
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Speaking of new offensive grasses that aren't that amazing let's talk more about Whimsicott. Offensive Whimsicott has been picking up sort of since the Skymin ban because of its pretty nice coverage (outspeeding and killing Mega Diancie, Latios, Keldeo, Terrakion, and Hydreigon among many others), and its access to Prankster Encore is awesome. Prankster Encore as a whole allows you to lock things into Protect, Wide Guard, Substitute (yes, it passes through subs o_o), Rage Powder, Fake Out, Trick Room, Tailwind, Icy Wind (for when you switch in Bisharp :3), and plenty of other things. It can set weather for its partners if it wants to. It also has the fastest Taunt in the entire game which is pretty fucking dank and can use gimmicky Beat Up strats if it wants to (which, despite all the hate it gets, isn't unviable, just extremely hard to work with).

The only set that should exist for it should be this one

Whimsicott @ Life Orb
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 29 HP / 0 Atk
- Moonblast
- Protect
- Encore / Taunt / Sunny Day / Rain Dance / Tailwind / Beat Up / Worry Seed / Grasswhistle
- Giga Drain / Energy Ball
Note: Italicized things are definitely not recommended. Crossed out things should never be used.


If 4MSS didn't exist I would definitely call this a Tier 2+ Pokemon, but when you look at how badly it affects Whimsicott, it should probably make its way into Tier 3, and nowhere higher. The only really viable set that isn't gimmick related has the third slot switch through a variety of moves, though when you want to use more than one, you have to drop coverage/Protect. This isn't that great for Whimsicott at all whatsoever, and those sets that drop coverage/Protect are generally terrible, as those are necessary in order to fulfill its niche to stop Diancie, Latios, and base 108s. It also just fucking dies to Charizard/Venusaur/Talonflame/Metagross, and can't function after paras (despite boasting an incredibly fast Taunt to stop these Thunder Waves from happening), losing almost all of its offensive presence and having the low 75% chance to move.

approx logs from a while back:

"Grasswhistle whimsi is probably the best set"

edit: oops didn't put a person, was arcticblast
 
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derivations

Banned deucer.
Actually, Rampardos does have another thing over Rhyperior and that move is called Zen Headbutt. Zen Headbutt gives Rampardos the ability to OHKO most of the Poison and Fighting-Types that would otherwise check it and/or its teammates. The only Poison-Types that can survive are either immune, have a Focus Sash or are physically defensive Amoongus, which BARELY survives. The only Fighting-Type that can survive is Scrafty, which is immune to Zen Headbutt. Rhyperior on the other hand will most likely lose to Breloom, but Rampardos doesn't thanks to Zen Headbutt. I've also figured out a way to get Rampardos to survive a +1 Dragon Claw from Mega Charizard X.
I considered Zen Headbutt being a niche that Rampardos may have over Rhyperior, but the only relevant Pokemon that I could think of weak to Zen Headbutt (using the vr list to help me, of course: Amoonguss, Keldeo, Terrakion, Gengar, Breloom, Venusaur, maybe Blaziken) have quick ways to defeat Rampardos, are generally strong against Trick Room teams, or just fucking sucked against Trick Room/Rampardos altogether. The category of things that sucked against Trick Room, however, was small compared to the lists of things strong against it. Amoonguss still beats both Rampardos and Rhyperior, Keldeo beats both Rampardos and Rhyperior just as easily (but loses to Rampardos more often), Terrakion can win or lose to either one just as easily, Breloom beat both really easily, Venusaur doesn't have the most impressive physical bulk in the first place so it might lose to those two more easily, and Blaziken just fucking sucks against Trick Room. Also, if you are using Trick Room, your Trick Room setter would likely be providing Psychic type coverage in the first place and could heavily damage these threats while Rampardos just uses Rock Slide and finishes.

Overall, I do think that Rampardos fulfills a role different from others in the meta game, but its role is so insignificant compared to what other things can provide that it should not belong on the list. This list contains Pokemon that are viable, meaning generally consistent on multiple/one team type(s), and Rampardos not only has a counter part that has all but pretty much 1 thing over it in Rhyperior, but its 1 thing over this counterpart isn't enough to make its niche considered "viable".
 
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Bughouse

Like ships in the night, you're passing me by
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Pokemon I have used successfully on teams (or seen others used successfully) that still don't need to be viability ranked because of how niche they are:

Mega Gallade
Mandibuzz
Noivern
Magmar
Blastoise
Rotom-C
Liepard
Mega Pinsir
Tornadus
Marowak
Porygon2
Entei
Gastrodon
Pachirisu

and the list probably goes on even longer...

Just because something has a small niche or works on one team does not mean it is something that should be recommended to other players as viable. The fact that literally no one else ever has used Rampardos (and I don't think any of us have seen you using it either...) means it almost certainly doesn't deserve a rank.
 
Is it at least worthy of an analysis? I had a Rampardos on a Doubles team that achieved a rating of over 1800 in the last gen, and my Rampardos this gen is on a team that has a 1500 rating in Doubles OU right now. Not all Trick Room users have Psychic coverage. Porygon2, Cofagrigus, Aromatisse and Dusclops are all noteworthy examples of Trick Room users that generally don't have Psychic coverage.

I also need to mention that Rampardos has yet another niche over Rhyperiorthanks to Sheer Force and Ice Beam. While Rhyperior gets Ice Beam, it has a lower SpA and does not get Sheer Force, so it often fails to OHKO Garchomp and Landorus-T. Here are the calcs to prove it.

192+ SpA Life Orb Rhyperior Ice Beam vs. 184 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 369-437 (101 - 119.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Notice the investment required to OHKO the "Doubles Physical Attacker" set found on the calculator. Now let's test Rampardos against a stronger target:

40 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Rampardos Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 20 SpD Landorus-T: 385-458 (100.7 - 119.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Not only was the Landorus-T that Rampardos was facing bulkier, but Rhyperior needed so much more investment to be able to check its common switch ins that you'll wind up either sacrificing huge amounts of power and/or bulk to deal with them, and you STILL might not OHKO them. Rampardos can do the same job much better with just 40 EVs in SpA. That allows you to fully invest in Atk and still have enough left over for you to invest in physical bulk to allow you to survive some common SE priority attacks like Bullet Punch and Mach Punch. This means that Rampardos can check most Fighting and Poison-Types as well as OHKO half of the Tier 1 Pokémon. Landorus-T and Keldeo will more often than not, lose to Rampardos in Trick Room thanks to Zen Headbutt and Ice Beam. Here is more evidence:

Rhyperior:

-1 252+ Atk Life Orb Rhyperior Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 56 Def Landorus-T: 338-400 (88.4 - 104.7%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Rhyperior Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 200-238 (61.7 - 73.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Rhyperior Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Breloom through Reflect: 196-232 (75 - 88.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Rampardos:

40 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Rampardos Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 395-468 (103.4 - 122.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Rampardos Zen Headbutt vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 424-499 (130.8 - 154%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Rampardos Zen Headbutt vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Breloom through Reflect: 307-362 (117.6 - 138.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Ice Beam on Rampardos has another element that makes it so successful: surprise. The surprise element was exactly what allowed me to get a team featuring a Rampardos to such a high rating. Rampardos often lures Landorus-T to Ice Beam it to death. Rampardos's niche is further differentiated from that of Rhyperior when you consider that Ice Beam Rampardos is not quite as prone to Intimidate as Rhyperior is, which means that Rampardos can still check Landorus-T even in the most Atk reducing situations imaginable.

-3 252+ Atk Life Orb burned Rhyperior Ice Punch vs. 184 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 109-130 (29.8 - 35.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

In the exact same situation, Rampardos would still win thanks to its superior mixed sweeping ability. The only thing I really wanted to do was to create a Doubles analysis for Rampardos, and my thread was locked because Rampardos "isn't viable". I'm trying to prove that it is viable in the current metagame.
 
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thinkin

Banned deucer.
Is it at least worthy of an analysis? I had a Rampardos on a Doubles team that achieved a rating of over 1800 in the last gen, and my Rampardos this gen is on a team that has a 1500 rating in Doubles OU right now. Not all Trick Room users have Psychic coverage. Porygon2, Cofagrigus, Aromatisse and Dusclops are all noteworthy examples of Trick Room users that generally don't have Psychic coverage.

I also need to mention that Rampardos has yet another niche over Rhyperiorthanks to Sheer Force and Ice Beam. While Rhyperior gets Ice Beam, it has a lower SpA and does not get Sheer Force, so it often fails to OHKO Garchomp and Landorus-T. Here are the calcs to prove it.

192+ SpA Life Orb Rhyperior Ice Beam vs. 184 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 369-437 (101 - 119.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Notice the investment required to OHKO the "Doubles Physical Attacker" set found on the calculator. Now let's test Rampardos against a stronger target:

40 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Rampardos Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 20 SpD Landorus-T: 385-458 (100.7 - 119.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Not only was the Landorus-T that Rampardos was facing bulkier, but Rhyperior needed so much more investment to be able to check its common switch ins that you'll wind up either sacrificing huge amounts of power and/or bulk to deal with them, and you STILL might not OHKO them. Rampardos can do the same job much better with just 40 EVs in SpA. That allows you to fully invest in Atk and still have enough left over for you to invest in physical bulk to allow you to survive some common SE priority attacks like Bullet Punch and Mach Punch. This means that Rampardos can check most Fighting and Poison-Types as well as OHKO half of the Tier 1 Pokémon. Landorus-T and Keldeo will more often than not, lose to Rampardos in Trick Room thanks to Zen Headbutt and Ice Beam. Here is more evidence:

Rhyperior:

-1 252+ Atk Life Orb Rhyperior Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 56 Def Landorus-T: 338-400 (88.4 - 104.7%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Rhyperior Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 200-238 (61.7 - 73.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Rhyperior Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Breloom through Reflect: 196-232 (75 - 88.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Rampardos:

40 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Rampardos Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 395-468 (103.4 - 122.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Rampardos Zen Headbutt vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 424-499 (130.8 - 154%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Rampardos Zen Headbutt vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Breloom through Reflect: 307-362 (117.6 - 138.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Ice Beam on Rampardos has another element that makes it so successful: surprise. The surprise element was exactly what allowed me to get a team featuring a Rampardos to such a high rating. Rampardos often lures Landorus-T to Ice Beam it to death. Rampardos's niche is further differentiated from that of Rhyperior when you consider that Ice Beam Rampardos is not quite as prone to Intimidate as Rhyperior is, which means that Rampardos can still check Landorus-T even in the most Atk reducing situations imaginable.

-3 252+ Atk Life Orb burned Rhyperior Ice Punch vs. 184 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 109-130 (29.8 - 35.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

In the exact same situation, Rampardos would still win thanks to its superior mixed sweeping ability.
thats not high rating
its outclassed by rhyp by both ability and stats(defensive), the tr users you mention are mostly non viable. there is no reason to use rampardos over rhyperior on any team. its better coverage vs some fightings vs lightining rod, amazing defensive stats and better typing. also the defensive lando you calc againts isnt used, the evs you use to lure that bad set in would do way better invested in bulk
 

13ulbasaur

* It seems to be nervous about fighting.
is an Artist Alumnus
I'd like to mention that you may have missed the point of Rhyperior having things besides just attack. If you are comparing on a pure killing things basis then sure, Rampardos wins, but Rhyperior has stuff like actual bulk which can either be further improved with Solid Rock or give team support with Lightningrod if needed. The bulk also means that Rhyperior is not completely useless out of TR, which makes the Poke more flexible which is very important to note in a Pokes viability. It also has more staying power, which is important. One would note that staying power is why some mons such as Greninja aren't as popular as they would be, being extremely frail is in fact a ginourmous downside in Doubles formats, since you are doing 2 versus 2, not 1 versus one, meaning that the opponents partner can and will retaliate.
 

derivations

Banned deucer.
Is it at least worthy of an analysis? I had a Rampardos on a Doubles team that achieved a rating of over 1800 in the last gen, and my Rampardos this gen is on a team that has a 1500 rating in Doubles OU right now. Not all Trick Room users have Psychic coverage. Porygon2, Cofagrigus, Aromatisse and Dusclops are all noteworthy examples of Trick Room users that generally don't have Psychic coverage.
I'm going to pick a few parts out of this that I think are a bit odd. You claim to have hit 1800 with a team with Rampardos on it. I could only believe this if it were on the Battle Spot Doubles Ladder; this thread is for Doubles OU, which is a completely different meta game from Battle Spot/VGC. While you may have experience in VGC, lots of things are different between our two meta games. I don't play a lot of VGC, but I can tell you in DOU right off the bat that
1. Porygon2 is sort of niche, and lacks the ability to deal nearly as much damage as other setters while not having the same defensive typing that makes Trick Room setters what they are.
2. Aromatisse is unviable. An immunity to Taunt is in theory a very good thing to have for a Trick Room setter but it's nowhere near as bulky as a Trick Room setter needs to be and has an incredibly low damage output compared to other setters.
3. Dusclops is unviable. It has amazing bulk and an immunity to Fake Out but a Trick Room team needs to be offensive - there are no buts in that. Dusclops doesn't deal nearly as much damage as necessary to be considered remotely "powerful".
I also need to mention that Rampardos has yet another niche over Rhyperiorthanks to Sheer Force and Ice Beam. While Rhyperior gets Ice Beam, it has a lower SpA and does not get Sheer Force, so it often fails to OHKO Garchomp and Landorus-T. Here are the calcs to prove it.

192+ SpA Life Orb Rhyperior Ice Beam vs. 184 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 369-437 (101 - 119.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Notice the investment required to OHKO the "Doubles Physical Attacker" set found on the calculator. Now let's test Rampardos against a stronger target:

40 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Rampardos Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 20 SpD Landorus-T: 385-458 (100.7 - 119.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
These calculations are irrelevant. I honestly see no point in actually including Rhyperior Ice Beam as an option, when Ice Punch does way better. A comparison of sheer power isn't necessary when Ice Punch is only worse in the most severe and unlikely of situations possible.
Rhyperior:
-1 252+ Atk Life Orb Rhyperior Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 56 Def Landorus-T: 338-400 (88.4 - 104.7%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Rhyperior Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 200-238 (61.7 - 73.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Rhyperior Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Breloom through Reflect: 196-232 (75 - 88.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Rampardos:

40 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Rampardos Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 395-468 (103.4 - 122.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Rampardos Zen Headbutt vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 424-499 (130.8 - 154%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Rampardos Zen Headbutt vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Breloom through Reflect: 307-362 (117.6 - 138.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Once again, all you're doing is comparing the sheer power in situations that are highly unrealistic. Nobody runs Landorus-T sets nearly as bulky as those listed in calc 1 (if so, very, very rarely), and Rhyperior at -1 probably still picks up the KO it needs when in a more realistic scenario. Earthquake from Rhyperior is not what I was suggesting; Drill Run deals more damage due to the lack of spread reduction, and Keldeo could very easily have taken prior damage before actually taking the hit from Rhyperior. Lastly, the Ice Punch through Reflect on Breloom is an extremely rare scenario that needn't be prepared for on anything ever. Reflect is already so rarely used in the first place, not to mention the fact that it has more success on bulkier teams than teams that feature more offense, such as teams carrying Breloom.
-3 252+ Atk Life Orb burned Rhyperior Ice Punch vs. 184 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 109-130 (29.8 - 35.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
In all honesty, I have no idea why you bothered to calculate the damage output that is the result of a guy not using his head and switching out his Intimidated Rhyperior, while sustaining a burn in the process against the least common Landorus-T set. All this proves is that a mixed Rampardos can fulfill one unrealistic job that Rhyperior can't.

A final note is that you are only saying you would use these three moves on the set (Protect, of course, is probably the last move on the set). This is one set working on one team style that happened to supposedly work better than one already niche thing in a completely different meta game. I do notice you have a low post count, and I would recommend this thread to show you around; Doubles OU is very different from Battle Spot, as I have inferred you played.
 
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Actually, I achieved the rating on Smogon Doubles. I know it sounds hard to believe, but its 100% true. I'd also like to claim the analysis for Escavalier if anyone hasn't done it yet. I've used Escavalier on the same team and it's been EXTREMELY successful thanks to a unique combo I designed.
 

kamikaze

The King Of Games
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For those who havent already heard, Stratos has passed the Viability Rankings thread over to me.

We will however be maintaining the current system of voting amongst our viability ranking council members and required a simple majority for any Viability rank shifts to pass.

Here are some much overdue votes. Votes this time are shown in the order me, Arcticblast, Stratos, Laga, Totem.

NOTE: The below are rank shift nominations that went up for voting. Final rank shifts after the council vote are at the bottom of the post.

Bisharp 1.5 -> 2
Abstain

Bisharp is a clear 1.5. While slightly eclipsed by Hoopa-Unbound now in the "raw power" department, it differs in that it can't be Intimidated and has powerful priority, as well as a good neutral STAB in Iron Head. The fact that one of the most significant Speed tiers in Doubles OU is 240 should say enough about how good Bisharp is.

1.5. Ive made a bunch of posts and shown some replays in its defense but its just rly good at pressure

Abstain. I definitely feel that bisharp has lost a lot of viability the past months without really being able to say why. I want to say that 239 Speed is becoming a worse and worse speed stat to have, and may be so bad for a frail mon that priority won't even save it. That being said, it will still forever be the best way to directly discourage intimidate.

No. bisharp is good vs tr and for sucker and discouraging intimidate.

Gardevoir-Mega 2 -> 1.5
No. While I love Mega Gardevoir a lot, I feel that teambuilding with it is somewhat centralized around it currently, being not as broadly usable as a lot of the tier 1.5+ pokemon. It still has some great matchups and checks a few teamstyles to maintain its tier 2' rank. I want to see how it does in open especially with the addition of Hoopa-U as a partner before debating this rise.

I abstain on Mega Gardevoir, for the same reasons kamikaze17 listed above. I think it's way more powerful with Hoopa-U around (and Skymin not being around helps too), but this is a pretty new meta compared to what we're used to. Things have to develop, you know?

2. don't think of it as a major meta threat which is how u should think of the things in 1 and 1.5

2. Too little of a threat to move up. You can power through teams easily, but that usuaully takes flawless ingame prep. Most every team has a hard stop to this naturally, and those that don't can easily fix it.

Yes garde is s1ck

Talonflame 1.5 -> 1
No. It is a very strong cleaner and provides great utility, but I think physical attackers need to be held up to a higher standard for Tier 1, esp with the dominant 50%+ usage of Lando-T in tournaments. While it can 2hko lando-t on the switch, it often becomes extremely deadweight and a momentum killer after the intimidate, being unable to net the ko's it needs to unlike the other physicals in Tier 1.

Talonflame is also definitely 1.5 because while it's very good it's also vulnerable to getting totally fucked over, and for a STAB base 120 priority move its damage output is sometimes a bit underwhelming.

1. talon's fantastic as a catch all and puts the opponent on the back foot with its powerful priority, and is often able to bail you out of tough spots as well.

1.5 It is just genuinely too frail to ever be considered a rank 1 Pokemon in my eyes. Kami went p well over how imperfect it is offensively as well.

No. talon is not 1 rofl

Suicune 2 -> 2'
Yes. I agree with thetalkingtree's assessment here.

Suicune is 2' for the reasons talkingtree stated. It's not really a rank shift so much as a position change within a rank (2 and 2' are on level footing in viability, but for different reasons).

2'. yeah tailwinds not a team archetype

genuine agreement of literally everyone so yea. talkingtree is going places

Yes. suicune is good on like fat stuff that needs a balance breaker


Final Changes:
Bisharp stays 1.5
Gardevoir-Mega stays 2
Talonflame stays 1.5
Suicune moves to 2'


We will try to knock out the next batch of votes ASAP.
 
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Kyurem-B 1.5 to 1

I'd like to see this guy get moved up because it has great match ups against a lot of pokemon and alleviates its weaker matchups (e.g. Landorus T) through the use of substitute. It finds multiple opportunities per game to set up a sun and just be a huge pain for the other team. It is an amazing stop to all things rain and also has a good matchup vs balance, which is either too slow to stop it getting a sub up or struggles to break the sub. It has extremely good coverage in ice beam and earth power, meaning it can hit most pokemon hard when it gets going. While sub is its best set by far, a scarf set can be a good lure for keldeo, Landorus t etc.
It's never deadweight on a team so imo should be 1.
 
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i wrote this on my phone but

regular abomasnow to 2'
regular aboma is really cool for hyper offensive teams as it provides a really solid rain check without having to go more balance-oreinted like kyube would make you. aboma+mega diancie is honestly a really scary core, with aboma beating virtually every check to diancie outside of aegis, while diancie handles fire-types and talon in return. aboma takes advantage in the recent decline of cress + all non-aegis steels, meaning the most common checks to it arent as prevelant as they were. granted tailwind or trick room support is pmuch needed to do anything against offense but its still a really good balance breaker + rain counter and it should atleast be ranked. ill get some replays later but yeah
 

Checkmater

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cresselia -> 2 plz
self-explanatory really

There are so many better options for fulfilling what you want cress to do for you team much better, and it's also pretty garbage as a setter anyways. Only niche is levitate setter, but unless you build with no ground resists/immunities on your team landot isn't a very big threat.

Also psychic typing is garbage

In terms of competitive use it's died tbh


Scrafty 2' -> 2

tier 2 describes it much better than 2'
nothing much else to say here
unless people have been using it out of fullroom with success (which would be cash so plz pass teams if so) it's predominantly on fullroom teams only


also idk if anyone has noticed but it's cool that all the megas in tier 1 alphabetically are next to each other n_n
 

talkingtree

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Mamoswine Tier 2' to Tier 3
Maybe back in the Skymin meta it deserved this for priority Ice Shard, but now there's no way it's up there with things like Mega Garde, Volcarona, and Breloom in terms of viability. Definitely still has a niche in checking genies, but it doesn't quite hit hard enough to run a scarf or sash set and dies way too quickly with a Life Orb set. It's stuck in an awkward speed tier and can't run all 6 moves it wants to run (EQ / Ice Shard / Icicle Crash or Spear / Rock Slide / Superpower / Protect). Because of all these drawbacks it's difficult to fit on teams, and should drop a rank.

Also, echoing thinkin in Rotom-W Tier 1 to Tier 1.5
This got nominated about two months ago and didn't move because of a 2-2 split but now I feel like it has only continued to get worse. Washtom is still a very good mon, don't get me wrong. But it gives free turns to Amoonguss and Kyube, two things you do not want to give free turns to. Bulky is a little too passive, and Scarf is a cool set but it misses out on the bulk that supports its great defensive typing.
 
To add to what thetalkingtree said about Mamoswine (everything was perfectly true), almost everything Mamoswine beats can take it on with ease, unless you run the Choice Scarf set. The Choice Scarf set is literally a Landorus-T with STAB Ice attacks, no Intimidate, and far fewer opportunities to switch in. It should have been Tier 3 the whole time imo.

For another nomination that might get rejected is Mega Venusaur 2' --> 3 or even UR. It always seems like something that might actually work, yet it's been proven it just wastes space when you face offense and doesn't do that great against Sun despite having Thick Fat, which is pretty annoying especially when it takes up a mega slot. Amoonguss can do everything Mega Venusaur can do and more, with Mega Venusaur's only perk being that it has better bulk and SpA, with the latter never invested in/cared about because the bulk is what gives Mega Venusaur the miniscule niche it has in this meta game, whatever that is.
 
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