Resource SM Doubles OU Viability Rankings

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I wouldn't say Araquanid is the most splashable water, since we have other Water-types that are better, such as Milotic, Azumarill and Tapu Fini, that are far more splashable on teams compared to Araquanid.
Couple more replays of araquanid:

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7doublesou-541784122
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7doublesoususpecttest-542265100 (hydro vortex ohko's kang regardless of crit, just fyi)

When I say that I think that araquanid is easier to fit on a team, I mean that unlike milotic, azu and fini, araquanid requires no support to function, and doesnt require set up or for the opponent to be having intimidate. In the above to replays, it puts in a ton of work against two very standard kang and mence teams.

I think the fact that, much like aegislash, it is capable of operating on a fast team as the slow mode TR check that still offers good power, utility and bulk with no support required for itself against non TR teams is what warrents a rise in the rankings.
 

Arcticblast

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Pheromosa to tier 4.
this guy has such nice coverage. being able to High Jump Kick heatrans, Ice Beam Salamences, U-turn on Deo-A
its very valuable
I like this idea

As the great Hashtag once put it: Deo-A is the hyper offense mon for typeless damage, Pheromosa is the hyper offense mon for super effective damage

Deo's still way better though obv
so idk if I have to go through some sort of induction process to post suggestions, but I feel Zygarde-10% UR -> at least Tier 4. Zygarde-10%'s advantage over regular Zygarde is its great base-115 speed, allowing it to get out Thousand Arrows or Thousand Waves very quickly, especially if you can get it to +1 with Dragon Dance. It also has several other useful options such as Extreme-Speed, Rock Slide (for Thousand Waves), Glare and Haze to compliment those moves. Core Enforcer suffers from the added speed, though.
I can almost get behind this but I can't actually see any viable set that isn't Choice Band with Thousand Arrows and... Sleep Talk? Zygarde-50 is good because of its obscene bulk combined with Thousand Arrows but it's actually a bit of a pushover offensively. Losing that bulk in exchange for "not enough Speed to beat Mence" just seems like it sucks.
 

GenOne

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Couple more replays of araquanid:

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7doublesou-541784122
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7doublesoususpecttest-542265100 (hydro vortex ohko's kang regardless of crit, just fyi)

When I say that I think that araquanid is easier to fit on a team, I mean that unlike milotic, azu and fini, araquanid requires no support to function, and doesnt require set up or for the opponent to be having intimidate. In the above to replays, it puts in a ton of work against two very standard kang and mence teams.

I think the fact that, much like aegislash, it is capable of operating on a fast team as the slow mode TR check that still offers good power, utility and bulk with no support required for itself against non TR teams is what warrents a rise in the rankings.
I nomed Araquanid to Tier 3 as well so I'm definately a big advocate for Big Spider, but to say its more splashable than Fini or Milotic is a huge stretch (not to mention that by that definition Araquanid would need to be Tier 2 since Fini and Milotic both are.)

In my experience Fini can be slapped onto almost any team that needs a bulky Water-type and perform decently. Milotic is a bit more balance-oriented, but its great bulk and recovery again make it usable on most team builds.

Without repeating my previous post in too much detail, I will say Araquanid definately does need some support to thrive; it's physically quite frail, and its low speed makes it a liability against strong physical attackers. Ideally its team has at least one TR setter and mons that can check common threats to it. But Araq needs a lot less support that Tier 4 implies which is why I nomed it to Tier 3.

...admittedly I have a vested interest in Araquanid, since I'm writing the Smogon Analysis on it and won the Week 11 (Araquanid) Teambuilding Competition :)

e: the TB comp team also went 2-1 for me in ssnls, so it's not just a vanity team
 

Checkmater

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Ninetales-A for tier 2

Thing is fucking amazing. 75% winrate in SPL and if you ask Stratos kami's game doesn't really count for w/e reason so basically 100% winrate
Aurora Veil lets it blanket check a lot of things. Besides minor issues with bulky setup (largely alleviated with encore) it only really faces issues in playing around opposing TTar. Getting a flat-out reflect+light screen (these overlap with aurora veil btw) for 8 turns is pretty amazing, particularly if your team has Kangaskhan on it. It's an incredibly flex pick that I'd say is hella good rn.

Ttar-> 1.5
Only other consistently used+really good hoopa counter outside of tapu fini / landot on teams. Sand has proven itself to be very strong, this should be reflected in the VR.
 
Ninetales-A for tier 2

Thing is fucking amazing. 75% winrate in SPL and if you ask Stratos kami's game doesn't really count for w/e reason so basically 100% winrate
Aurora Veil lets it blanket check a lot of things. Besides minor issues with bulky setup (largely alleviated with encore) it only really faces issues in playing around opposing TTar. Getting a flat-out reflect+light screen (these overlap with aurora veil btw) for 8 turns is pretty amazing, particularly if your team has Kangaskhan on it. It's an incredibly flex pick that I'd say is hella good rn.

Ttar-> 1.5
Only other consistently used+really good hoopa counter outside of tapu fini / landot on teams. Sand has proven itself to be very strong, this should be reflected in the VR.
The only thing Ninetales-Alola does, is killing your momentum versus Charizard-Mega-Y, Heatran, Jirachi and Aegislash and its OHKOed by ALL tier 1 mons and only just stacks up your weakness to fires and steels (both of which are probably the most prominent types in the DOU tier). This thing is probably viable but if your team has to rely on a 5 turn Aurora Veil, (which are easily outstalled in a metagame where every mon carries protect) it's probably not such a reliable team. I just fail to see why I would use this.
 
This thing is probably viable but if your team has to rely on a 5 turn Aurora Veil, (which are easily outstalled in a metagame where every mon carries protect) it's probably not such a reliable team. I just fail to see why I would use this.
if for example aurora veil is up and any setup mon comes out, the last thing i would be doing is trying to stall out aurora veil against an azumarill or dd zygarde. also the mons that you listed as things ninetales-alola couldn't touch are weak to rock slide and earthquake, so things like zygarde (something that as previously mentioned benefits from dd), lando-t, or perhaps all-out pummeling terrak could help to deal with those. aegislash in particular does pose a threat to ninetales, but it can be worked around.

also to add to what check said, it has freeze-dry, imprison (which not only prevents the use of protect but also blocks lele's moonblasts from hitting allies, so things like hoopa-u and hydreigon become lele checks), icy wind, scarf, encore, disable, and the two setup moves nasty plot and cm, though setup moves would probably be poor choices on a mon so reliant on its own weather. it should also be noted that after speed issues are dealt with pretty much any mon that uses blizzard is kind of scary because freezes save lives all of the time.
 
if for example aurora veil is up and any setup mon comes out, the last thing i would be doing is trying to stall out aurora veil against an azumarill or dd zygarde. also the mons that you listed as things ninetales-alola couldn't touch are weak to rock slide and earthquake, so things like zygarde (something that as previously mentioned benefits from dd), lando-t, or perhaps all-out pummeling terrak could help to deal with those. aegislash in particular does pose a threat to ninetales, but it can be worked around.

also to add to what check said, it has freeze-dry, imprison (which not only prevents the use of protect but also blocks lele's moonblasts from hitting allies, so things like hoopa-u and hydreigon become lele checks), icy wind, scarf, encore, disable, and the two setup moves nasty plot and cm, though setup moves would probably be poor choices on a mon so reliant on its own weather. it should also be noted that after speed issues are dealt with pretty much any mon that uses blizzard is kind of scary because freezes save lives all of the time.
The main niche Ninetales-Alola has (aiding setup sweepers) is, in my opinion, too specific to say it's as splashable as the other tier 2 pokémon. You'll always be better off building around this mon rather than adding it to teams later on. If doing so, you've got to be sure that you have enough ways to deal with fire and steel types. Tier 4 (or maybe even tier 3) seems fine to me.
 

Arcticblast

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Why is offensive threats to a pure support Pokemon relevant to its ability to support its team?

Aurora Veil benefits every Pokemon, no matter what it's doing - Tapu Fini or bulky Kang with Aurora Veil up become absolutely disgusting, for example. Every team can also appreciate a fast Blizzard (particularly with speed control to dunk on Mence and Scarf Lando) and weather control is a nice perk. Yeah it kinda gives up momentum sometimes because it's weak and doesn't have the best stats, but as far as a pure support Pokemon goes I'd say it's actually second only to Jirachi.
 
I think Raichu-Alola should be ranked. In electric terrain it outspeeds everything and has some cool tricks like paralyzing through protect, fake out, (a very fast) encore and even outside electric terrain it outspeeds Char Y and neutral Mence. Thanks to its Z-move and speed it's also a reliable check to rain teams.
I haven't used it much but it seems nice on rain or Char Y teams.
 
TTar may just be a pretty underrated mon at the moment. It matches well vs a very large portion of the current meta pokemon pool either hard countering or providing a soft offensive check. I have a list here of all the meta pokemon that ttar can help deal with.

Meta pokemon that TTar hard checks: Tapu lele, Hoopa-u, Salamence, Charizard-y, and Mega Gengar
Meta pokemon that ttar soft checks: Jirachi, Zygarde, Aegislash

As you can see Tyranitar deals with a large majority of tier 1 and threats from tier 1.5-2 as well. Ill explain below each pokemon individually.

Lele: Tyranitar is of course immune to psychic spam which is a huge boon vs the standard offensive teams. He also shrugs off moonblast if you need to activate weakness policy or deal with lele immediately by trading hp for the knockout or big damage on lele.
252 SpA Tapu Lele Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 206-246 (50.9 - 60.8%)
Hoopa:
A very similar case to lele, but tyranitar resists both of hoopa's stabs, the only threat is drain punch but its hard to fit on a moveset unless its specifically a lure. Ttar probably isnt as popular of a counter for it to run that normally so its fairly safe atm. Fury does basically no damage so theres no fear to switch in for free on a hoopa.
252+ Atk Hoopa-Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 96-114 (23.7 - 28.2%)
252+ Atk Tyranitar Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hoopa-Unbound: 156-184 (51.8 - 61.1%)
252+ Atk Tyranitar Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hoopa-Unbound: 222-262 (73.7 - 87%)

Salamance:
TTar is one of the good salamence checks outside of Jirachi or Heatran. It has a supereffective stab in rock slide which is a spread move to bypass the annoying jirachi mence combo. TTar shakes off flying stab with ease, salamence usually only runs flying stab so this works out perfectly.
252 SpA Aerilate Salamence-Mega Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 42-49 (10.3 - 12.1%)
4 Atk Aerilate Salamence-Mega Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 99-117 (24.5 - 28.9%)

Charizard-y:
The main reason ttar is good against charizard is he cancels weather effects by being a slower setter. Ko's with rock slide, shrugs off fire attacks in the sand. Pretty self explanatory.

Mega Gengar: Again shrugs off both stabs, kills with his own stab.
 
Ttar isnt a lele hard check idk who came up with that.
Ttar is prone to get intimidated especially by lando-t (you often Have to run ice beam for this with spatk investment) and its certainly not an ideal aegislash check or anything due to kingsshield and wide guard. On paper it maybe looks good but to me it doesnt appear like i like it better than other tier 2 mons. 80 bp crunch (often without boosting item) isnt that scary either.
It's neither a Zygarde check just cuz it has ice coverage.
Sure weather is great and its Mence char gengar matchup too like you say.
 
Ttar isnt a lele hard check idk who came up with that.
Ttar is prone to get intimidated especially by lando-t (you often Have to run ice beam for this with spatk investment) and its certainly not an ideal aegislash check or anything due to kingsshield and wide guard. On paper it maybe looks good but to me it doesnt appear like i like it better than other tier 2 mons. 80 bp crunch (often without boosting item) isnt that scary either.
It's neither a Zygarde check just cuz it has ice coverage.
Sure weather is great and its Mence char gengar matchup too like you say.
Got a few more days until my phone is taken away, but y'all sleeping on using Fightium Z on Tapu Lele. OHKO bulky Heatran, Tyrantar, and Kang (unless it really didn't invest anything on Atk). Anyways and unless my memory is bad, Tyranitar's Banded Pursuit/Crunch does eliminate a standard Tapu Lele. Of course, everything is situational on how they check each other.
 

Platinum God n1n1

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Ttar isnt a lele hard check idk who came up with that.
Ttar is prone to get intimidated especially by lando-t (you often Have to run ice beam for this with spatk investment) and its certainly not an ideal aegislash check or anything due to kingsshield and wide guard. On paper it maybe looks good but to me it doesnt appear like i like it better than other tier 2 mons. 80 bp crunch (often without boosting item) isnt that scary either.
It's neither a Zygarde check just cuz it has ice coverage.
Sure weather is great and its Mence char gengar matchup too like you say.
I've been almost exclusively using assault vest ttar because of Lele and other threatening special attackers. In the sand ttar with avest has over 500spd with no ev investment. It just brushes off Lele moon blast ; only fighting z Lele will beat the avest ttar I have been using.
Also this speaks to how versatile ttar is. Many options with items, move spreads, evs, and play styles. It's has become one of the the most splashable mons.
Also considered this ttar is a threat to mega salamence CharY, mega kang(if lowkick), and mega gengar, and with speed control it beats Metagross. That's every mega on the VR
 
I've been almost exclusively using assault vest ttar because of Lele and other threatening special attackers. In the sand ttar with avest has over 500spd with no ev investment. It just brushes off Lele moon blast ; only fighting z Lele will beat the avest ttar I have been using.
Also this speaks to how versatile ttar is. Many options with items, move spreads, evs, and play styles. It's has become one of the the most splashable mons.
Also considered this ttar is a threat to mega salamence CharY, mega kang(if lowkick), and mega gengar, and with speed control it beats Metagross. That's every mega on the VR
You say it brushes off Leles moonblasts. 252 SpA Life Orb Tapu Lele Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Tyranitar in Sand: 179-213 (44.3 - 52.7%) -- 20.3% chance to 2HKO
Fun fact: AV Ttar in sand 'brushes off' (which, in the case of tapu lele, means: 'is sometimes 2HKOed by) nearly every special attack! This doesn't mean its automatically a good check to every special attacker (wouldnt that be broken). Just that its bulky when slapping an unfavorable item on it doesnt mean it can forfill other roles well too. When using Assault Vest, I think it will really hurt not to have your attacks boosted or being able to use protect. Often you will be at -1 (lando-t is still everywhere) and most of the time Ttar wont be doing damage to the mons it is meant to check: -1 252+ Atk Tyranitar Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Lele: 124-147 (44.1 - 52.3%) -- 76.2% chance to 2HKO after sandstorm damage (given this is the most likely scenario ttar will be at). I think I'd even use Jirachi as means of a Ttar wall. Also Ttar is still weak to ground, steel, water and grass.
It also has a very slow rockslide, meaning you cant flinch anyone :(.
Buuuuuuuut, I do think Ttar should be tier 2 and not 3.
 

kamikaze

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VR Votes Round 2. A Lot of shifts this time

Torkoal 4 -> UR
kamikaze: Yes. Hasnt done anything at all

Laga: yea this is bad

MajorBowman: Sure. I’ve seen approximately 0 Torkoal on ladder and in tournaments. Doesn’t compare to Zard at all.

Memoric: ok

SamVGC: yeah torkoal is hot garbage

shaian: yeah for some reason every time i type i have to manually change the s in my name to lowercase which sucks just like torkoal

Necrozma 3 -> 4
kamikaze: Abstain

Laga: Abstain, hasnt seen much success in SPL

MajorBowman: Yes. Once the initial hype died down it stopped getting usage. It’s pretty inferior to Hoopa as a TR setter and is probably a bit weaker than Cresselia in the setup sweeper department since it has literally zero coverage

Memoric: yes, it’s too damn horribly niche

SamVGC: yes, see torkoal reasoning

shaian: yes, see my thoughts on this mon on the based EV spread compendium and give me likes

Zygarde 2 -> 1.5
kamikaze: Yes this mon is so bulky, sets up easy, and just spams a move that is pretty much unresisted for most of the tier.

Laga: Definitely yes. This mon puts a lot of pressure, especially if you dont pack random HP ice.

MajorBowman: Yes. It’s pretty easy to set up and Thousand Arrows is a stupid move.

Memoric: yes, it’s broken lol. Capable of winning games on its own, commands much respect in-game. It’s broken!!!!!!

SamVGC: Yes, sets up on a lot and all ground resists are garbage

shaian: yeah, i hate this pokemon it looks ugly. Thousand arrows is stupid

Azumarill 2 -> 1.5
kamikaze: No. Sam and bowman got it

Laga: Abstain.

MajorBowman: No. I think 2 is a good place for Azumarill, it can still put in some work but I don’t think it’s anywhere near its ORAS glory

Memoric: No, what they said

SamVGC: no, building with it is way harder this gen and theres so many more natural checks to it

shaian: bowman and sam summed up my thoughts

Tyranitar 3 -> 2
kamikaze: Abstain

Laga: Yes, pretty decent pokemon, fills multiple roles.

MajorBowman: Sure why not. It’s a really solid check to Mence and Zard and having weather control is super nice.

Memoric: yes, can be really difficult to take down even with the weaknesses thanks to the high spd, can be dangerous offensively too.

SamVGC: abstain, i think its a solid 2.5. Not really on par with the other 2’s but above the 3’s

shaian: abstain, worse than 2’s better than most 3’s

Araquanid 4 -> 3
kamikaze: No. I feel it still has a lot to prove

Laga: Abstain

MajorBowman: ehhhh I’d probably vote to stay in 4. It’s been pretty underwhelming every time I’ve tried it and too many things can switch into Liquidation. Salamence kinda invalidates its existence, which doesn’t help at all. If it starts getting more usage and more wins maybe I’d be down to move it back up to 3.

Memoric: no, too dependent on liquidation, mans is very slow, and notable bad mus such as mega mence is ass.

SamVGC: no, ive used it a bunch and tried to make it work but its just consistently underwhelming and its lack of moves outside of liquidation hurts it a lot

shaian: no, the great debate over pjab or leech life continues to hold this pokemon back because we don’t know for sure what it should be doing with that last move slot

Snorlax UR -> 4
kamikaze: Abstain

Laga: No, it feels very underwhelming in my opinion, requires too much support

MajorBowman: No, don’t really see a reason to rank it when the Belly Drum set is outclassed by Azu and everything else takes way too long to get going

Memoric: yes, curse is the danger

SamVGC: yes, curse set is hot and bd can take games as well. gluttony/figy is broke and i think more people need to explore this

shaian: yes, buddha is based

Gyarados UR -> 4
kamikaze: Abstain

Laga: Yes; mostly just because of the low standard of tier 4. Mega Gyara has a good typing, interestingly enough synergetic with it’s pre mega form.

MajorBowman: Yes. Intimidate never sucks and it has surprisingly good coverage

Memoric: no, hasn’t really proven itself anywhere im p sure??? Not much notable usage anywhere. I’d sooner use araq lol

SamVGC: id say yes, feels underexplored right now

shaian: ^

Cresselia UR -> 4 -> 3 (pick one. Currently UR)
kamikaze: 4 is fine

Laga: 4, it’s just meh

MajorBowman: Wait why was this ever unranked lol. Cresselia will never be bad in any Doubles format. I’m not sure about bumping it immediately to 3 so my vote is going to be for 4, but I could definitely see it rising in the future.

Memoric: 4, the bulk + support options is still annoying to deal w/

SamVGC: put it in 4, cm is still dangerous and tr is good as ever. I dont think cress will ever be bad enough to be unranked

shaian: yes it’ll end up in 3 or 2 in the future but 4 for now. i fucking told y’all to put this on here when we first made the rankings but nooooooo “cress usage is non-existent”

Venusaur UR -> 3
kamikaze: UR for now. I have seen a sun team with it from Laga and definitely not feeling 3. I may be inclined for 4 if I see more of it.

Laga: Why wouldn’t this be up for a vote for getting into tier 4? It’s definitely not 3, but I could spot it in 4 still. UR till someone nominates it properly

MajorBowman: Is this a typo? I could maybe see Venusaur getting into 4 at some point...maybe...but definitely not 3. Remain UR

Memoric: x, maybe 4

SamVGC: i’d keep it UR, its still “lose to jirachi: the pokemon” and mence tar sand exisiting again is even worse for it. Even when it has a matchup it’s still only good 75% of the time

shaian: no. who tf has seen a venusaur in 2017?

Metagross UR -> 4
kamikaze: Yea. Tec Rage Gross is cool and that typing is excellent vs Mence and Psyspam

Laga: fills enough rolls with its amazing typing and coverage paired with intimidate immunity. Definitely 4 over UR

MajorBowman: Yes. It’s gotten a couple wins with the Tectonic Rage set in SPL iirc, works well with other megas like Mence. Steel coverage in a Fairy riddled meta is cool

Memoric: this is ok

SamVGC: yeah, gets a lot of cool coverage and tec rage is legit

shaian: yeah tec rage and looks cuter than mega gross which is mega gross

Rotom-Heat 4 -> 3
kamikaze: I love Rotom Heat and used to defend it but man it just sucks now. It doesnt properly take hits or check the things it needs to check well such as Tapu Koko, Charizard, Salamence and it hits like a wet noodle

Laga: no, the guy who nominated this unironically loves smash mouth

MajorBowman: literally no

Memoric: over my dead body

SamVGC: no

shaian: …

Pheromosa UR -> 4
kamikaze: No. needs to show its worth more

Laga: No. I haven’t seen it on a single solid team, and that can only be a correlation with shiteness


MajorBowman: Meh, not a fan. It literally can’t switch in and it struggles against redirection. Voting to leave it unranked unless I see some results

Memoric: no, not much notable usage / results

SamVGC: id say yes, i think people just haven’t really used it yet. Something with the ablity to ohko bulky kang and threaten lando/mence cant be too bad

shaian: no needs results first

Mega Kangaskhan 2 -> 1.5
kamikaze: Yes. This mon is broke

Laga:

MajorBowman: Yes. Seismic Toss is broken. That is all.

Memoric: yes, fuck the stoss set that thing never dies and breaks teams down so well

SamVGC: not even a question, yes

shaian: yeah

Mega Charizard 1 -> 1.5
kamikaze: yes. Rip its fallen

Laga: yea, it’s got a quarter winrate in SPL

MajorBowman: Yes. Earlier in the format I thought Charizard was one of the best megas, but Kangaskhan, Mence, and Gengar are probably all generally more solid. I still think Zard is great and I wouldn’t drop it any lower than 1.5, but I don’t think it’s absolute top tier.

Memoric: recent happenings to the metagame as of late have resulted in me echoing the above

SamVGC: YES THANK YOU JESUS CHRIST

shaian: yeah :(

Tapu Koko 1.5 -> 1
kamikaze: No. Nothing changed yet

Laga: no, it’s slappable, it’s strong, but it’s not the goat

MajorBowman: No. Pretty sure we voted on this last time. The only things going for it are speed and terrain. It hits like a wet noodle, especially if a different terrain is up. Being fast is great but not enough for 1.

Memoric: no, what i said last time hasn’t changed

SamVGC: i think this is a repeat and my opinion remains unchanged, no

shaian: not so fast kiddo its still 20 base spa too early for it to be tier 1

Kyurem-B 3 -> 1.5
kamikaze: No. Way too steep

Laga: No. What a terribly far fetched nomination, that’s not moving anything

MajorBowman: No. This is another mon I’ve been pretty underwhelmed by in SM. I think 3 is a good spot and could maaaayyybe see it rising to 2 in the future, but for now my vote is definitely to remain in 3. What’s with all of this nomming stuff up multiple tiers lol


Memoric: ^

SamVGC: why the fuck is this being nommed to 1.5 from 3, id support to 2 but not 1.5

shaian: ^

Tapu Fini 2 -> 1.5
kamikaze: Yes was a big supporter of this last vote.

Laga: Yes, it’s proven now.

MajorBowman: Yes. It’s proved itself as one of the best bulky waters in SM and one of the best Tapus as well.

Memoric: yea ok, it’s proven to be a bitch and its terrain has proven to be useful at making other things bitches so yea

SamVGC: absolutely, i don’t think other bulky waters even come close and its typing is insanely good

shaian: yeah daily reminder samvgc teams always have tapu fini zapdos and heatran on them

Hydreigon 3 -> 2
kamikaze: No. 3 is fine for it right now

Laga: no, has a hard time being the best man for any job you want him for.

MajorBowman: No. Anything double weak to Fairy in a generation where every team has a least one fairy isn’t going to be that great. It’s outclassed as a Tailwind setter and Dragon attacks are pretty lame right now.

Memoric: no, it’s right where it should be rn. I made a post about it, it was p ok

SamVGC: no it just gets shit on by way too much this gen, ha a few good roles but doesnt really do any of them quite well enough to warrant use most of the time

shaian: uhhhhh the fact that its in 3 right now is contentious as hell, going up to 2 is like dafudge

Zapdos 3 -> 2
kamikaze: Yes. Misty Seed Zapdos is easily one of the best innovations this gen and its shown that through multiple seasonal and spl games with its ease of setting up tailwind and then being extremely difficult to deal with after

Laga: Definitely 2, one of the stars of SPL

MajorBowman: Yes, the Misty/Psychic Seed set is stupid good and I’m kinda mad it caught on because fighting against it is really annoying. You guys weren’t supposed to take it from me just let me use it in peace!

Memoric: yeah. it’s not a fucker. Can be a tank and has a good mu all-around with seed and typing, being able to consistently threaten Tailwind is ace and roost + bulk is threatening

SamVGC: absolutely, i think seed zapdos is ridiculously good and tailwind is as good as its ever been. Access to reliable recovery and good coverage cements it belonging in 2

shaian: sure. Wins 1 on 1 against moltres and articuno after seed boost and twind which is a sick niche

Pelipper 4 -> 3
kamikaze: No

Laga: 3. A pokemon is just as good as everything it brings, and 5 turns of rain is not 4.


MajorBowman: No, kind of a bad mon and only used because of Drizzle. Tailwind is neat but it doesn’t really help the fact that it’s pretty frail and pretty weak

Memoric: no, i dont see any reason why

SamVGC: stupid toilet bird, no

shaian: has drizzle =/= good is faulty reasoning

Politoed 4 -> 3
kamikaze: Abstain

Laga: yes, same reason as pelipper

MajorBowman: I’d be more willing to bring Politoed to 3 than Pelipper. Politoed has pretty cool support options like Encore and Helping Hand and works a lot better with Kingdra (which is arguably the best swift swimmer) for those reasons. I’ll vote yes on this one.

Memoric: no, still pretty faulty as a standalone mon which relegates it to just being a supportive piece for one other mon at best. It doesn’t have to rise because of drizzle and its other qualities dont make it 3-material

SamVGC: sure, it has a wide range of moves to make use of and rain is fairly strong

shaian: see pelipepper

Volcanion 4 -> 3
kamikaze: Abstain

Laga: Abstain, have seen it do some work, just can’t be sure if it did more work than more viable mons could.

MajorBowman: Yes. Thought it was pretty underwhelming at first, but after using it and seeing others use it, I’m more impressed. Its coverage is really solid and it still has some pretty great bulk.

Memoric: ok, it’s fun if i wanna use the specific typing and the mus volcanion itself can bring. Av is neat and can pull off taking a good number of hits while being a threat surprisingly well.

SamVGC: yeah, people underrated it at the beginning but its seen a lot more use and AV is a super legit set, and can pull off multiple z moves well. It’s still alt-heatran but definitely deserving of 3

shaian: ok


Changes:
Torkoal moves from Tier 4 to UR
Necrozma moves from Tier 3 to 4
Zygarde moves from Tier 2 to 1.5
Tyranitar moves from Tier 3 to 2
Snorlax moves from Tier UR to 4
Gyarados moves from Tier UR to 4
Cresselia moves from Tier UR to 4
Metagross moves from Tier UR to 4
Mega Kangaskhan moves from Tier 2 to 1.5
Mega Charizard moves from Tier 1 to 1.5
Tapu Fini moves from Tier 2 to 1.5
Zapdos moves from Tier 3 to 2
Volcanion moves from Tier 4 to 3
KyleCole moves from VR Council to UR
 

GenOne

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Kangaskhan-Mega | 1.5 --> 1

It's pretty much the best mon in the meta rn tbh, and its winrate in SPL is insane. It's just as splashable as Mence, to the extent that you can switch Kang in for Mence on most Mence teams and still have a solid team. In fact, if you replace Thundurus with Zapdos and Amoonguss with Tapu Fini, you basically have the THALK of SM - that is, a team with good matchups against nearly every archetype.


n1n1 | UR --> VR Council Council™
 
Right now both Cresselia and Necrozma are tier 4. It is nothing but stupid to say they are equals.
Cresselia is a very reliable, extremely bulky speed control user which is at least as good, if not better, than Zapdos. Cresselia can choose to run either icy wind or trick room meaning it fits on both fast and slow teams (which Zapdos doesn't). Cresselia has helping hand and calm mind too.
I rather have Cresselia unranked (then it looks like you forgot to put it in there by mistake) than it being in tier 4.
So I say, Cress to tier 3 because this thing is better than Nihilego/Araquanid or just leave it out again.
 
Right now both Cresselia and Necrozma are tier 4. It is nothing but stupid to say they are equals.
Cresselia is a very reliable, extremely bulky speed control user which is at least as good, if not better, than Zapdos. Cresselia can choose to run either icy wind or trick room meaning it fits on both fast and slow teams (which Zapdos doesn't). Cresselia has helping hand and calm mind too.
I rather have Cresselia unranked (then it looks like you forgot to put it in there by mistake) than it being in tier 4.
So I say, Cress to tier 3 because this thing is better than Nihilego/Araquanid or just leave it out again.
Alright we get that you love cresselia but its nowhere near as splashable as you say it is. If it were really as good as you say, people would be using it and saying its as good as Zapdos right now is not accurate. Yes cress gets trick room but its not the best setter by any means (I'll take Hoopa, zonger or jirachi any day), it provides almost no offensive presence at +0 aside from icy wind vs Lando-t/Zygarde and Icy Wind is more of a half speed control than anything. I agree its better than necrozma bc that mon is ass tier but Cress in 4 is the right place for it and don't its really not comparable to Zapdos.
 
Alright we get that you love cresselia but its nowhere near as splashable as you say it is. If it were really as good as you say, people would be using it and saying its as good as Zapdos right now is not accurate. Yes cress gets trick room but its not the best setter by any means (I'll take Hoopa, zonger or jirachi any day), it provides almost no offensive presence at +0 aside from icy wind vs Lando-t/Zygarde and Icy Wind is more of a half speed control than anything. I agree its better than necrozma bc that mon is ass tier but Cress in 4 is the right place for it and don't its really not comparable to Zapdos.
Jirachi and Zonger have just an as bad offensieve presence. There are Plenty of reasons to run Cress over Hoopa-U and Jirachi (and Zonger lol). Cress doesnt die to Lando-T, Heatran, Char Y and Zygarde (Jirachi does) and it's waaay more reliable than Hoopa-U as a setter thanks to it's bulk. It can HEAL so set up TR/icy wind multiple times which Jirachi can't.
 
Jirachi and Zonger have just an as bad offensieve presence. There are Plenty of reasons to run Cress over Hoopa-U and Jirachi (and Zonger lol). Cress doesnt die to Lando-T, Heatran, Char Y and Zygarde (Jirachi does) and it's waaay more reliable than Hoopa-U as a setter thanks to it's bulk. It can HEAL so set up TR/icy wind multiple times which Jirachi can't.
Jirachi is definitely better offensively at +0 then cress, if you don't understnad that then I cannot help you. Yes cress hits harder than Zong but throwing off Hypnosis is putting out way more pressure than anything Cress is doing. Sure Cress can get up Trick Room reliably, maybe multiple times, but then what? I'm not trying to tell you that Cresselia has no niche or role in the tier, I've used it to moderate success, but it has shortcomings in its ability to be hard walled by a number of things (specifically steels and darks not named hydreigon). There are reasons to run cress over hoopa or rachi sure, i wouldn't say many reasons because Cress isn't THAT good right now anyway or it would probably have won a tournament game in the last month (seasonals, SPL, DLT take your pick).
 
Usage means not so much when talking about Cresselia as it was unranked so nobody knew it was viable :/.
You say Cress is walled by all steels but Jirachi is just walled as hard by them so that is no argument.
Also I don't agree a 80% accurate hypnosis is that good, meaning you waste your z-move on a mon you want to switch out asap to make room for actually good trick room attackers after you have set up.
 
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