Resource SM Doubles OU Viability Rankings

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Kang + Zong is one of the most successful TR threats right now. Even with 80 percent chance to succssfully use Hypnosis, Zong (for some reason) has better luck than Rotom's Hydro Pump. Untauntable TR and and a sleep move that is only avoidable through Misty/Electric Terrain adds a lot of pressure and def ensures another opportunity to use TR. There are only three ways to viably bypass Kang + Bronzong: prevent a successful Fake Out, have at least 2 mons that can OHKO Bronzong, or do your best to stall out TR.

So what about Hoopa-U? Well, it's the only viable TR setter that guarantees heavy damage as well. In other words, it's a TR setter that makes the most out of TR. It's also a great counter to opposing TR setters and one of the reasons why Diancie and other resistant TR setter if any at all are used. TBH, I wouldn't use Cress in a metagame where Hoopa-U is the face of TR and is in the Top 10 in usage. If anything at all, Jirachi can flinch it and Zong can use Hypnosis on it; Cress can't do anything: Calm Mind? (ignore), Icy Wind? (thank you), Psychic? (ignore), Moonlight? (whatever), Moonblast? (why?).

Simply put, Cresselia is quite pathetic when facing an opposing TR team or when other TR setters are around; they can do something against it, but it can't do anything against them! Cresselia also takes no advantage of Terrains like other TR setters do, but don't get me wrong. I know that Levitate, Icy Wind, and Helping Hand is useful. I just find Jirachi + Setup Mon to be even more threatening, and I assume others do too. In the way that I see it, I just find other TR setter more resourceful to use than Cress. Tier 4 is where it belongs.
 
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Rotom-Heat 4 -> 3
Laga: no, the guy who nominated this unironically loves smash mouth
Lies! Slander!

Rotom-Wash 3 -> 4

I'm still of the opinion that Rotom-Heat and Rotom-Wash are about as good as each other. The differences are that they have good matchups against different things: Wash vs Lando & waters, and Heat vs steels, Zard, and Koko. Rotom-Wash has the additional benefit of not requiring a Z-crystal to be viable. The differences between them are not very big, and they share basically all of the same problems (not enough bulk, don't hit very hard without a Z move, middling speed, etc.). Since Rotom-H was overwhelmingly rejected, I don't see why Rotom-W should stay in tier 3.
 

ryo yamada2001

ryo yamada2001
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Zygarde to tier 1
Zygarde is super strong, Thousand Arrows is one of the strongest moves in the game because hitting levitators with ground STAB lol. sure it hits like a wet noodle before it sets up but its so ridiculously easy to set up with dragon dance. you don't even need redirection usually, because you're super bulky. it can also run sub to capitalize on its bulkiness and difficulty to break and i feel like zygarde is probably one of the strongest pokemon right now
 
Lies! Slander!

Rotom-Wash 3 -> 4

I'm still of the opinion that Rotom-Heat and Rotom-Wash are about as good as each other. The differences are that they have good matchups against different things: Wash vs Lando & waters, and Heat vs steels, Zard, and Koko. Rotom-Wash has the additional benefit of not requiring a Z-crystal to be viable. The differences between them are not very big, and they share basically all of the same problems (not enough bulk, don't hit very hard without a Z move, middling speed, etc.). Since Rotom-H was overwhelmingly rejected, I don't see why Rotom-W should stay in tier 3.
You shouldn't say that one mon/form is worse, so the other mon/form must be just as bad. They're different and distinct from each other.

And behold an electric type that got to watch out for water types! Well, if you really need a mence and EQ resist, and steel check, I guess it's okay.​
 

GenOne

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Usage means not so much when talking about Cresselia as it was unranked so nobody knew it was viable :/.
You say Cress is walled by all steels but Jirachi is just walled as hard by them so that is no argument.
Also I don't agree a 80% accurate hypnosis is that good, meaning you waste your z-move on a mon you want to switch out asap to make room for actually good trick room attackers after you have set up.
Usage in high level play is definitely important - those stats literally tell you what people are using to win important games. Sure, sometimes you see sleeper picks creep up that nobody thought to use...but Cresselia isn't one of them. Everybody who played ORAS DOU knows what Cresselia is - it's not a new mon.

Maybe it would be helpful (for me at least) to see some SM replays where Cress put in work? I think it's Tier 4 worthy since its a bulky TR setter/its Icy Wind set is okay, but I've honestly never seen it win anything important.
Lies! Slander!

Rotom-Wash 3 -> 4

I'm still of the opinion that Rotom-Heat and Rotom-Wash are about as good as each other. The differences are that they have good matchups against different things: Wash vs Lando & waters, and Heat vs steels, Zard, and Koko. Rotom-Wash has the additional benefit of not requiring a Z-crystal to be viable. The differences between them are not very big, and they share basically all of the same problems (not enough bulk, don't hit very hard without a Z move, middling speed, etc.). Since Rotom-H was overwhelmingly rejected, I don't see why Rotom-W should stay in tier 3.
Someone nommed Rotom-W down to 4 in the round before this one. VR Council unanimously kept it at 3, and imo their reasoning is still relevant:
kamikaze: No. This mon is still relatively solid as a mence check and twave is still a solid speed control option for a large portion of the metagame even with its nerfs. Just dont use this mon as a Tapu Fini check or it will disappoint you in that regard.

KyleCole: No. Very solid Pokemon with unique & valuable match ups. Thunder Wave, HP Ice and even Toxic are all more viable now and give wash some flexibility it never really had.

Laga: 3. Still fills a solid roll as a pivot, with Thunder Wave being a better option this gen. Typing lets it have an amazing matchup against Heatran, Mence, and Landorus-T. 3 is perfect placement considering how it admittedly cannot tank the neutral terrain boosted hits it should.

MajorBowman: No. While not as good as it was in ORAS, Rotom-W still checks popular Pokemon like Landorus-T and Heatran very well. Salamence being free makes Rotom even better too, and a lot have been dropping Will-O-Wisp for Thunder Wave as a means of speed control. I don’t think Rotom should be any lower than 3, it’s still a pretty solid Pokemon when used on the right team.

Memoric: No lul, it’s still pretty effective as a pivot. Its typing’s p nifty for checking the likes of Mence, Lando, and Tran, while TWave is really nifty.

SamVGC: Rotom-W as 3 feels like a perfect spot, not as good as it once was but still a really solid pick.

shaian: nah. same reasons as jake. L E V I T A T E.

Zygarde to tier 1
Zygarde is super strong, Thousand Arrows is one of the strongest moves in the game because hitting levitators with ground STAB lol. sure it hits like a wet noodle before it sets up but its so ridiculously easy to set up with dragon dance. you don't even need redirection usually, because you're super bulky. it can also run sub to capitalize on its bulkiness and difficulty to break and i feel like zygarde is probably one of the strongest pokemon right now
Idk, Tier 1 is a pretty big step up from 1.5 imo. Anything that's in Tier 1 splashes onto pretty much any teambuild and works. Zygarde doesn't need a lot of support, but it's still more of a setup wincon that requires some strategic/forward thinking plays to execute correctly. The tier 1 mons are pretty mindless to win with.
 

GenOne

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zygarde is probably the most mindless pokemon i've ever used? you click dragon dance and then click your STAB a lot?
Idk, maybe. My experience has been it becomes pretty useless if Intimidate users keep switching in on it, and as bulky as it is, its downfall is it doesn't give you much momentum until after you set up - especially since the meta is so fat rn. It's still really good, so Tier 1.5 is deserved. But Tier 1 mons are near flawless, and I don't see Zygarde quite there.
 
Zygarde is outclassed by Lando-T, it has no intimidate, its way too slow before ddance and can't create momentum with u-turn and is less powerful (much lower attack stat). Zygarde is not nearly as good as tier 1 pokémon.
Also, everybody seems to find it hardly justifyable that Cresselia is even ranked, but can those people explain me why Cresselia is tier 2 in the ORAS VR?
 

I Am a Rookie

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Zygarde is outclassed by Lando-T, it has no intimidate, its way too slow before ddance and can't create momentum with u-turn and is less powerful (much lower attack stat). Zygarde is not nearly as good as tier 1 pokémon.
Also, everybody seems to find it hardly justifyable that Cresselia is even ranked, but can those people explain me why Cresselia is tier 2 in the ORAS VR?
Are you really grouping Lando-T and Zygarde together? Just because they are both ground types doesn't mean they share the same role...

Edit: Not going to make a new post for this, but if you happen to see it can you provide some replays of you using Cresselia to give merit of your recommendation?
 
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Zygarde is outclassed by Lando-T, it has no intimidate, its way too slow before ddance and can't create momentum with u-turn and is less powerful (much lower attack stat). Zygarde is not nearly as good as tier 1 pokémon.
Also, everybody seems to find it hardly justifyable that Cresselia is even ranked, but can those people explain me why Cresselia is tier 2 in the ORAS VR?
ORAS and SM are different metagames
 
ORAS and SM are different metagames
So, what major changes did happen to the metagame that made Cress less viable? Mega Mence didn't. Tapu Koko didn't. Etc?
Are you really grouping Lando-T and Zygarde together? Just because they are both ground types doesn't mean they share the same role...
Ofcourse they are comparable. Both hurt fire and steel types but Lando-T isn't reliant on setting up to put in work and, as i previously mentioned, has intimidate and pivotting and All.
 
The introduction of the Tapus and Z-crystals happened to the Metagame.
The changes in the metagame lead to there being better TR setters than Cresselia.
Z-crystals for 1, lead to Bronzong being a deadly Z-Trick Room setter, combined with Hypnosis, which Cress doesn't have access to.

Second, the prevalence of Tapus and Terrains being extremely important lead to Fairies being on pretty much every team. Additionally, with the return of things like Mence, Steel types have become a staple in many teams. A notable Steel type that fulfills many roles, including setting up TR, would be none other than Rachi. Being able to wall and counter Fairies is something that Cresselia cannot do.
(This argument got invalidated just as I posted since Rachi got banned)

Third, the prevalence of steel types and fairies kicking out Hydreigon, as well as no Mega Gardevoir/Diancie has made Hoopa-U extremely prevalent and dangerous. As Test Bots has mentioned, what exactly is Cresselia going to do against a Hyperspace Fury-ing pokemon?

While it is true that Cress is a viable TR setter that could potentially become annoying with multiple CMs up, there are better options for TR in this meta compared to ORAS. So while it does deserve Tier 4, I agree with above posters that Tier 3 or higher seems a bit excessive. Not to mention it has to compete with other bulky TR setters like Porygon2 (who has a recovery move that isn't affected by Rain/Sand) and Diancie that don't have as much of a struggle against Hoopa-U. (Although Diancie does get annihilated by Steels).


Also, I'm against Zygarde -> Tier 1. While with Ddance up, Zygarde's Thousand Arrows is really dangerous, there are obvious shortcomings like Wide Guard (I know, Z-crystals are playable) and simply, intimidate as well as Icy Wind being prevalent partly cancels out Zygarde DDance unless it's behind a sub.
I don't think Zygarde is as easily placable on teams as the other Tier 1 mons, partly because of sharing the 4x ice weakness with Lando-T/Mmence, which are other Tier 1 mons (and pretty much all teams run ice coverage) that have Initimidate, a really useful ability to have on most teams.
 
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Buzzwole UR -> tier 4

Good Fighting-types are really hard to come by nowadays. Base 79 Speed, strong nuke options, and good coverage for Intimidate switch ins thanks to Ice Punch definitely merits at least tier 4 imo
Why would this thing be better than Pheromosa?
 

Arcticblast

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Just because two Pokemon have the same typing and similar positions in the PokeDex doesn't mean you can directly compare them. Pheromosa is a Pokemon that wants to end games, using its speed and power to score consistent OHKOs, whereas Buzzwole wants to be more of a team player, using its bulk to switch in on heavy hits and strike back. I do think both Pokemon can be incredibly powerful on the right team, and neither is really "better" than the other, but comparing them is difficult.

On another note, please stop posting one liners and constantly parroting on single points no matter how many times you're talked down, it's destroying the quality of this thread. basically stop being a fuckass
 
Sorta controversial nom: Tapu Bulu from 3 -> 2

I know Bulu has gotten a lot of hate in recent months/weeks but I think thats kind of undeserved. I was also initially underwhelmed by Bulu but its really grown on me and I think its as viable as the tier 2 mons and while I know SPL usage/winrate does not equal viability its been used 9 times and has a positive winrate (~55%). Bulu's grassy surge is great for supporting teammates both in weakening Earthquake damage for Steel-/Fire-types and effectively giving all grounded teammates leftovers. I've found the Assault Vest set to be especially viable recently as it takes many special hits such as Heatran heat waves, Kyu-B ice beams and pretty much anything thats not Zard overheat or a STAB sludge bomb. Something that obviously helps it is the departure of Jirachi which could absorb all attacks (except natures madness) with relative ease and render Bulu useless. I think with a surge in offensive viability thanks to the absence of one of its best checks and the all around great utility it can provide teams, notably Trick Room teams, Bulu is worth of a spot in Tier 2.
 
Mamoswine UR -> 4

While this mon has forever been the "man, I could make that work" choice that eventually leads you to just changing it to Lando-T, the current meta finally gives it a chance to shine. It has not seen a ton of higher competitive use, it was used once by Biosci this SPL (he won) and I have seen multiple users with it on the ladder. Its specific niche comes almost entirely from its unique typing, and jirachi being gone only helps it out more. Ice shard allows it to come in and KO a chipped Mence, Zygarde, or Lando-T and its Groundium-Z set allows it to ohko even shuca heatran* and also makes it quite difficult to switch into.

TL/DR: It's a fucking mammoth

* 252 Atk Mamoswine Tectonic Rage (180 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Shuca Berry Heatran: 560-660 (145 - 170.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
 
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