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Resource Doubles OU Viability Rankings

Discussion in 'SM Doubles OU' started by kamikaze, Jan 16, 2017.

  1. kamikaze

    kamikaze The King Of Games
    is a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Super Moderatoris a Tiering Contributor
    Doubles Magician

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    Quick VR Update

    Rushed out this update. Some people submitted resumes for VR Council, so we decided to respond to them here. Also a couple missed Pokemon from last time were thrown into the mix. Anything else not voted on will be incoming next big update.

    qsns UR -> VR Council
    Show Hide

    kamikaze: yes. Cute user meme needs to burn though

    Laga: clear yes, good guy good player

    MajorBowman: he feeds me teams whenever i ask and they’re always p good so why not

    Memoric: really good in the metagame lately, has a lot of good matchups thanks to the nifty resistances

    SamVGC: yes, has a pornstar emoji in wolfpack discord

    shaian: yes. Next person to use the cute user meme is getting banned

    finally UR -> VR Council
    Show Hide

    kamikaze:
    Finally, he's here for you
    It's the last member of the DK crew
    This Kong's so strong, it isn't funny
    Can make a Kremling cry out for mummy
    Can pick up a boulder with relative ease
    Makes crushing rocks seem such a breeze
    He may move slow, he can't jump high
    But this Kong's one hell of a guy


    Laga: sure, he’s active again, and hes an amazing player.

    MajorBowman: yes but only if i can negotiate and end to the lewd checkmater memes

    Memoric: finally

    SamVGC: yes on the condition we get 3 new checkmater images

    shaian: yes im gonna claim that i nommed this

    checkmater UR -> VR Council
    Show Hide

    kamikaze: This dude had the gall to initially send in a 2 page resume. Hell no

    Laga: got checkbaited till i found out this was a joke

    MajorBowman: literally scarred by his face pasted on naked bodies make it stop

    Memoric: [​IMG]

    SamVGC: :checkmater:

    shaian: checkmater is the dou version of all star

    Hashtag UR -> VR Council
    Show Hide

    kamikaze: No education? Would take immigrants over illiterates any day

    Laga: yada ydada memes

    MajorBowman: no he was mean to me once a long time ago >:(. hate kyle huang http://pastebin.com/gH50KuFh

    Memoric: no, i heard he was mean to MajorBowman once a long time ago >:(
    http://pastebin.com/gH50KuFh


    SamVGC: yes he was mean to majorbowman once

    shaian: yes he was mean to majorbowman once a long time ago >:)
    http://pastebin.com/gH50KuFh

    Arcticblast UR -> VR Council
    Show Hide

    kamikaze: Short, Sweet, and to the point, like the resume. No.

    Laga: funny story i once beat a random dude in the first spl game of dubs ever played!

    MajorBowman: arcticblast more like FARTicblast am i right

    Memoric: arcticblast my ass

    SamVGC: arcticblASSt

    shaian: banned me once so no.

    Kangaskhan 1.5 -> 1
    Show Hide

    kamikaze: Yes. Best Mega right now. It just comes in at the right time and snatches a pokemon from your opponent thanks to Stoss. It is now investing heavily in bulk making it a lot harder to KO than last gen. Some sets even run Wish to extend survivability. Also cant go wrong with Fake Out as long as you arent colorblind

    Laga: Kanga is op, yes

    MajorBowman: Yeah, there’s no question that it’s the best mega right now. It was recently pointed out (I believe by Demantoid) that it has only lost to itself and Gengar in SPL. Crazy good.

    Memoric: spd wish kang is broken lol, other variants of kang still dangerous too.

    SamVGC: absoutely, no other megas really stand up to it besides gengar, and if you have to foce yourself into using mgar to beat something its probably a good pokemon

    shaian: okay

    Ninetales-A 4 -> 3
    Show Hide

    kamikaze: Yea definitely. Scarf Ninetales has done me well but Checkmater and Stax have shown how strong Aurora Veil support tales can help tip games. It has plenty of cool options like fast encore and disable as well

    Laga: yes, i got shat on by stax, aurora veil + fast encore is definitely strong

    MajorBowman: No. Never really been impressed by Ninetales and hail itself is actually super bad. Aurora veil is literally the only reason to use it and even then it still feels like you’re playing with a 5 pokemon team since you’re getting 0 damage from that slot for not a whole lot of support

    Memoric: ok i guess, playing around aurora veil can be a bitch and lets opposing beasts be bigger beasts than they’d regularly be

    SamVGC: nah i think 4 is pretty fitting for it, can see some use but not gonna make enough of a difference to warrant 3.

    shaian: ye i put this here


    Changes:
    qsns moves from UR to VR Council
    finally moves from UR to VR Council
    Mega Kangaskhan moves from Tier 1.5 to Tier 1
    Ninetales-A move from Tier 4 to Tier 3
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2017
    Jahimm, Cheryl., Level 51 and 9 others like this.
  2. Arcticblast

    Arcticblast lucky enough to draft winners
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    and a rift forms in the VR council
    qsns, Derivatives, Kaori and 12 others like this.
  3. BlueSkiddo

    BlueSkiddo formerly BlueSkiddoWeCanToo

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    Hey, I don't make checkmater images for anyone but Finally!
    marilli and finally like this.
  4. Koekiekoekje

    Koekiekoekje

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    Whimsicott to tier 4 because it can set up guaranteed tailwind and encore pokemon into useless moves like tailwind, protect, fake out, trick room and substitute. And not entirely irrelevent is whimsicott + terrakion with beat up which every team has to have a proper check to.
    Pocket and n1n1 like this.
  5. Arcticblast

    Arcticblast lucky enough to draft winners
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    I've always felt Whimsicott kind of forces teams into more offensive builds yet doesn't have its own clear goal in mind. It sets Tailwind, then... what? If you spend your time Encoring things you'll die, if you U-turn out you've accomplished far less than a Zapdos or Skymin in the same slot could, and if you try to attack you're just tickling things. There's also the issue of Psychic Terrain making it basically useless and the inability to Encore against Hoopa or Tyranitar thanks to Dark's Prankster immunity. I know a well played Whimsicott is some frustrating shit to play against, but on the whole I'm not sure it's even worthy of tier 4.
    Koekiekoekje likes this.
  6. Big_Danny_Mason

    Big_Danny_Mason

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    So with regards to Hoopa's failed last nomination for tier 1, the underlying thought in the logic of it should stay 1.5 was essentially:

    Compare this to Mega Mence or lando, who have been described as being basically perfect on paper, with good bulk, power, speed, and team support. On paper, they are easily better than hoopa. They are both much more splashable. However, in practice, I think most everyone would agree that Hoopa is more influential. A hoopa in TR is quite possibly the single biggest threat in the game right now. Mence was not even included as an option in the recent poll on the best mon in the metagame(I don't believe lando was either but I cant remember for sure). Hoopa's special bulk and ability to dismantle virtually any bulky team, the dominant playstyle, that it ends up in a favorable position against makes the meta game very favorable to it. The defensive dominance of steels and increasing presence of electrics means that I never really am overly worried about mence when I team build. I always end up with at least a couple of options that can switch into it without too much trouble. Ditto for lando.

    I think that some parallels can actually be drawn to drawn to azumarill last generation. Azumarill was actually nommed up to Tier 1.5 from Tier 2 a few times before getting promoted. The logic behind the lack of a rise was basically "a setup mon cannot be higher than Tier 2". Yet as we know, azumarill ended up being a defining force in the metagame by the end of Gen 6.

    Hoopas physical defense and reliance on speed control are absolutely glaring weaknesses, much like azumarill's utter reliance on getting up a belly drum is. Nobody is saying other wise.

    To me, viability rankings are indicative of influence in the meta game in order to help people team build. I understand that reliance on team support is a drawback that must be incorporated when teambuilding. However, to me at least, this isnt a dealbreaker for overall effectiveness, the frequency between how good a mon is and how bad a mon is depending on the game.

    TL;DR if mon A is overall more effective than mon B, even if mon A has glaring weaknesses and mon B doesnt, it doesnt change the fact that mon A is overall more effective than mon B. This isnt to say that hoopa is necessarily more effective than mence or lando, but that glaring weaknesses dont prevent hoopa from being incredibly effective.
    finally likes this.
  7. Koekiekoekje

    Koekiekoekje

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    You can slab lando-t and heatran on virtually every team and you can be 90% sure they will perform well. With hoopa-u, in my opinion, this isn't really the case. Hoopa-U is not bulky and needs support (fake out/redirection/intimidate and such) so that it can set up trick room or it needs icy wind/tailwind support so that it can outspeed its opponents and often you have to pair it with Tapu Lele for the damage output. Also because intimidate weakens Hyperspace Fury and steel types don't care too much about Hyperspace Hole and Hoopa-U only hits Aegislash for SE damage (Jirachi is gone), I don't feel this mon will ever be tier 1.



    heil cress
  8. Derivatives

    Derivatives

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    Charizard Y to tier 3
    Zard really requires heavy support to do well, and I mean sure once it's under the right conditions it can hit some teams hard, but overall this mon is just too plain bad to be in such a high tier. I personally think of tiers 1-2 as being commanding or in the case of some 1-1.5 mons highly meta game defining, but I can't see zard as either. The number of things in 1-2 that can switch into zard at least somewhat well greatly outweighs the number of mons that can't. Also zard itself has so many checks from tier 1-2 that there's usually going to be a strong zard check on the field at all times, so it's an exceptionally difficult tier 1.5 mon to position well. It doesn't pay off much to use this, I think it could go even lower than 3 but it's already hard enough trying to move this down from 1.5 to 3.
    as two final points unrelated to the rest, it firstly prevents you from using kangaskhan mence or megagross at all, the three of which are very commanding and very powerful, and as a final point it has a 75% lose rate in SPL with a lot of usage and only 1 mirror (albeit one of its uses was beat up reg zard but that was 1 instance). overrated asf
  9. Koekiekoekje

    Koekiekoekje

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    That is a very radical nomination you did just there and I entirely disagree with it.
    Mega Charizard Y has 159 base special attack and a 1.5x boost on it's fire type attacks thanks to the drought ability. In comparison, Mega Salamence has a 145 base attack and a 1.2x boost on it's flying type attacks (not nearly as powerful). In the sun, water type attacks do less damage and solar beam requires no turn to charge, which means Charizard actually poses a threat to pokémon such as Milotic. Mega Salamence suffers from the omnipresent intimidate so its often forced to run a mixed or full special set (with only 120 special attack). Flying type moves fail to hit Heatran, Aegislash, Celesteela and Tapu Koko. Fire type moves fail to hit Heatran, Salamence, Tapu Fini and Zygarde. Coverage moves like hidden power ground (or even ice) and solar beam allow Charizard to deal good damage to those. Every pokémon that does not resist the fire type will regret switching into a sun boosted heat wave. A -1 double edge or hyper voice is far less threatening to switch into.
    The reason I compare these two pokémon is because one of them is with no doubt tier 1 (Salamence) while the other one is nominated to tier 3 (Charizard). I want to show you the latter possesses way more firepower and has just an as good, if not better, offensive typing as the first.
    However, I am aware Salamence is faster and has intimidaters by itsself prior to mega evolving. Charizard needs tailwind, icy wind or trick room support but is more dangerous under these conditions than Salamence will be.
    Defensively seen: both dislike Landorus-Therian (the first because of rock slide, the latter because of intimidate), Tapu Koko (capable of OHKOing either of them), Heatran (due to flashfire and it carrying hidden power ice more often).
    With its decent base 100 speed and a nuke in overheat, it can pick up some quick OHKOes early in the match as well, as shown below (I'll add a few more calculations later on).
    I think tier 1.5 is the perfect place for Charizard. I don't find tier 3 or even 2 acceptabele at all.

    252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Overheat vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tapu Lele in Sun: 328-387 (116.7 - 137.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    GreenGogoatttt, n1n1, Matame and 5 others like this.
  10. MajorBowman

    MajorBowman Singer, Actor, Dancer, Model, Magician
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    Can we stop nominating stuff to jump or drop more than one tier? I'd even go so far as to propose a rule that prevents multiple tier jumps in one vote. Nothing is ever going to gain or lose value that quickly unless something drastic happens like a new move/ability is released/banned. It's happened multiple times already in this iteration of the VR and I'm pretty sure it's failed every time.
  11. I Am a Rookie

    I Am a Rookie @RookieVGC

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    Oh boy, I have to do it:
    [​IMG]
    Linoone: UR -> Tier 4

    Although it is lacking in the bulk department, thanks to Linoone's Gluttony ability and the introduction of 50% berries in S/M, Linoone is able to set up Belly Drums much more consistently. Linoone also has access to a STAB 80 base power move with +2 priority that will score knockouts on nearly every unresisted Pokemon in the format at +6, with a common exception being neutral defense nature Mega Salamence at full. It is also important to mention that because Linoone has access to Extremespeed and a speed stat of 100, unless a Pokemon with redirection outspeeds, Linoone typically avoids Rage Powder and Follow Me.
  12. Checkmater

    Checkmater a pinned butterfly is no butterfly at all
    is a Pre-Contributor

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    posted this on the discord, crossing to here for anyone interested

    [9:56 PM] Checkmater: also yall itc rate this idea/10
    [9:56 PM] Checkmater: viability rankings for megas are separate
    [9:56 PM] Checkmater: ?
    [9:56 PM] Checkmater: like they're just not comparable
    [9:56 PM] Checkmater: to normal mons
    [9:57 PM] kamikaze: i like them mixed in as they are now
    [9:57 PM] Checkmater: i think it always gets shit mixed up because
    [9:57 PM] Chase: i mean it makes sense, but not sure if its worth the effort
    [9:57 PM] Checkmater: when someone's like "move zard down"
    [9:57 PM] Checkmater: everyone's like
    [9:57 PM] Checkmater: but it's so good
    [9:57 PM] Checkmater: but what you have to read is that
    [9:57 PM] Checkmater: it's just not as good as the other options
    [9:57 PM] Checkmater: ya feel
    [9:57 PM] Chase: def not as good as mega absol true
    [9:57 PM] Checkmater: it's just not comparable to the other mons because you look at something else in 1 or 1.5 and internally might say hey zard is just as good here but that's not the whole picture
    [9:57 PM] Checkmater: it doesn't capture the type of teambuilding constraint that using zard as your mega causes
    [9:58 PM] Chase: nah i agree it makes sense but then we'd have a vr of 5 mons and thatd look weird
    [9:59 PM] Checkmater: idt it'd be very hard or look very out of place

    In essence: create a separate vr for the megas only, because they're not really comparable to the normal mons and you can only have 1/team.
  13. GenOne

    GenOne
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    I could get behind a seperate rating list for megas, but I don't think they should be removed from the overall VR. It's important to be able to view the viability of megas in comparison to how they stack up even against prominant non-megas.

    The VR as is formatted now already tells you, for example, that if you run Mega Gengar, you lose out on the option to run 2 of the 4 Tier 1 mons on the VR, because tbh its common knowledge to anyone that knows anything about mons that you only get one mega per team. It also tells you that Landorus-T, for example, objectively puts in more work than Mega Gengar in most scenarios. But mons like Mega Charizard and Mega Gengar, for example, can still perform really well given the right build or matchup - there are just less scenarios where they perform well -- and the VR tier definitions already reflect that.
    Koekiekoekje likes this.
  14. Big_Danny_Mason

    Big_Danny_Mason

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    I agree with the sentiment of evaluating mega's opportunity cost seperately, but I think you still have to try to keep them in comparison with the other similiar options at the same time, ie picking zard vs tran. Zard and tran are probably roughly equal overall in terms of how they stack up against common opponents. However, forfeiting a large opportunity cost for something that isnt a large gain simply isnt profitable or a good idea when teambuilding, and thus this causes zard to fall harshly in the VR.

    It may make sense, when considering megas to tier the seperately first in your head, and then to make a nomination. For example, my tiering of the megas would be:

    Tier 1: Kang - Always Great
    Tier 1.5: Mence and Gross - Always good, frequently great
    Tier 2: Gengar - Always decent, sometimes great
    Tier 3: Zard - Sometimes great, sometimes bad

    And if you ask me the megas should be tiered in the overall VR accordingly. When you evaluate a mega, you have to compare it to how it stacks up against other megas as well as other options of similar typing.
  15. BlueSkiddo

    BlueSkiddo formerly BlueSkiddoWeCanToo

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    Ferrothorn 4 -> 3

    With the rise in popularity of kang / zap / fini and metagross / lele core teams, the ban of jirachi, and the descent in usage of zard, Ferro fills a fantastic niche as a check to many common mons. Its steel / grass typing is fantastic in a meta with only a few relevant fires and even fewer relevant fighting types, and leech seed allows it to widdle down many of the bulky team compositions which are currently well loved.

    TL/DR It's like they took some grass, melted it down into steel, and then formed it into sweet, yet savory spiky goodness.
  16. shaian

    shaian
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    zard would get more play if people starting using typhlosion as an eruption user instead of that slow ass heatran. MAKE SUN GREAT AGAIN.
  17. Demantoid

    Demantoid [10:43:28] #Mishiimono)⊙﹏⊙✿( kills a dewgong

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    Zapdos Tier 2 -> 1.5

    Zapdos' good stats, move-pool, and typing have led it to be 7th in spl usage with a solid 65% win % (s/o majorbowman's thread). During SPL it was not uncommon for a Zapdos to sit there for nearly the entire match. Along with Misty or Psychic Seed and "Bolt-Beam" coverage, Zapdos is able to take on many threats such as Landorus-T, Heatran, Mega Salamence, Tapu Fini, Tapu Koko, Tapu Lele, Aegislash, Mega Gengar, Charizard, Shaymin-Sky, Milotic, Hydreigon, Celesteela, Volcanion, and rain teams. Jirachi being banned was very good for Zapdos as we lost the best Icy Wind user and a prominent Trick Room setter that could also easily redirect Zapdos' attacks. Better than half the things in 1.5 right now imo and way better than everything else in 2. The only real problem I have with it is that it's 2hkod by Kang's Seismic Toss please ban
    Matt, wishes, Kaori and 7 others like this.
  18. GenOne

    GenOne
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    Kangaskhan also loses more than half its hp if it S-Tosses into a Rocky Helmet Ferrothorn which is a bonus; Ferro + ghosts are literally the only good switchins to Kang rn.
  19. Koekiekoekje

    Koekiekoekje

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    Does anyone happen to have an opinion on Mawile's Mega Evolution? This generation it has some cool matchups versus Salamence, Hoopa-Unbound and Tapu Lele for instance. I could see it work alongside Hoopa-Unbound as a trick room setter (to work around Aegislash) but I don't think Mawile's viability will ever exceed that of those in tier 3.

    P.s. I haven't used Mawile at all this generation so it would be cool if the people who have experience with it shared their thoughts on it.
  20. BlueSkiddo

    BlueSkiddo formerly BlueSkiddoWeCanToo

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    I can see it being better because of the lack of jirachi, but unfortunately we haven't / won't see any usages of it in spl / dpl simply because of how little sense it makes to run a team that isn't one of the 4 good megas (mainly the two good ones). If we see any decent usage of it in later DPL rounds or this coming seasonal, I would certainly be up for judging it for a nom then, but at this point it's used so little that even nominating it to 4 would just be theorymoning.
  21. miltankmilk

    miltankmilk winter is here.
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    NJNP used it week 9 vs Bowman and lost
  22. BlueSkiddo

    BlueSkiddo formerly BlueSkiddoWeCanToo

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    I think we can all agree that doesn't count, considering the team it was used against. It lost to 5/6 of those mons easy.
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2017
  23. Matame

    Matame Perfection is the disease of a nation
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    I think that's the point
  24. GenOne

    GenOne
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    This is a bit of a controversial nom, with no real SPL or ssnls results to point to, but:

    [​IMG]
    Kartana | UR --> Tier 4
    It's a physical hyper offense mon that takes special hits about as well as Deoxys-A, and has a way worse speed tier to boot. But, unlike other hyper offensive mons, it's actually possible to pivot this mon into a physical attack if you're able to predict one, since its physical defense is actually pretty solid. It also gets pretty well-rounded coverage in Leaf Blade, Smart Strike and Sacred Sword. Its speed tier also isn't terrible right now, since the meta is seeing a bit less Mence/Koko and a bit more Kang/Fini.

    It doesn't splash onto just any team and would probably never rise beyond Tier 4, but it actually makes a pretty decent sixth on Kang/Zap/Fini teams and you should at least give it a shot! n_n

    e: [13:15] finally: if you wanna edit your viability rankings post. me and hashtag used kartana for like the first 4 rounds of winter seasonal and had like 90% winrate with it
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2017
  25. BlueSkiddo

    BlueSkiddo formerly BlueSkiddoWeCanToo

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    I support this nom, I have done my fair share of playing with kartana, and that kind of offensive threat combined with the attack boosts and the fact that you can't ohko it with sash make it a very serious threat. It works very well as a late game cleaner and is also a very nice offensive tran / kang / fini / hoopa check (read: common bulky offense mons).

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