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Doubles Doubles Viability Rankings

Discussion in 'Cartridge Formats' started by Demantoid, Jan 25, 2017.

  1. Demantoid

    Demantoid [10:43:28] #Mishiimono)⊙﹏⊙✿( kills a dewgong

    Mar 20, 2015
    Approved by cant say and hulavuta; format and some descriptions taken from noved's BSS Viability Rankings
    [​IMG] Battle Spot Doubles Viability Rankings[​IMG]
    Welcome to the Battle Spot Sun/Moon Doubles Viability Rankings thread. Here, we as a community will rank every single usable Pokemon into ranks. You're encouraged to post your thoughts and opinions on the Pokemon that are usable in the metagame and what rank they should fall under. The general idea of the topic is to rank Pokemon based on their effectiveness in the Battle Spot Doubles metagame.

    S Rank
    [​IMG] Landorus-T

    A Rank
    [​IMG] Aegislash
    [​IMG] Heatran
    [​IMG] Mega Kangaskhan
    [​IMG] Mega Salamence
    [​IMG]Tapu Fini
    [​IMG] Tapu Koko
    [​IMG]Tapu Lele

    [​IMG] Mega Charizard Y

    [​IMG] Mega Gardevoir
    [​IMG] Mega Metagross

    B Rank
    [​IMG] Mega Gengar
    [​IMG] Mega Mawile
    [​IMG] Rotom-W
    [​IMG] Mega Swampert
    [​IMG]Tapu Bulu
    [​IMG] Thundurus-T

    [​IMG] Mega Venusaur

    [​IMG] Mega Abomasnow

    C Rank

    [​IMG] Mega Gyarados
    [​IMG] Mega Blastoise

    [​IMG] Mega Lucario

    D Rank
    Some examples of D Rank Pokemon:
    mishi is bad

    E Rank
    Some examples of E Rank Pokemon:

    Last edited: Sep 2, 2017
    Heliodor, marilli, Test Bot # and 4 others like this.
  2. Demantoid

    Demantoid [10:43:28] #Mishiimono)⊙﹏⊙✿( kills a dewgong

    Mar 20, 2015
    Note that C- and C ranks from last generation's thread have basically been merged into D Rank and B ranks and C+ rank have been shifted down.

    1/26/17 Volcarona added to B+
    2/9/17 Bronzong added to B-
    9/2/17 Kangaskhan and Tapu Fini to A+
    Charizard Y to A
    Ferrothorn Snorlax Mega Gardevoir Tyranitar to A-
    Milotic Thundurus-T Ludicolo Mega Swampert to B+
    Porygon-Z Whimsicott Kartana Hydreigon Scrafty to B
    Thundurus-I Bisharp Conkeldurr Gothitelle Mega Abomasnow Mimikyu Gigalith Pheromosa Drifblim to B-
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2017
    marilli likes this.
  3. Kai1998


    Dec 2, 2016
    I've been using a team of Char Y, Garchomp (tectonic rage), Aegi, Alolan Ninetales, Koko and Sylveon and it's been doing great for me. Currently ranked 4th in the US, I don't feel as though Garchomp deserves such a low ranking, it handles so many prominent threats in the meta. Why C+?
  4. Demantoid

    Demantoid [10:43:28] #Mishiimono)⊙﹏⊙✿( kills a dewgong

    Mar 20, 2015
    The only thing Garchomp does better than Landorus-T is check Charizard Y and Heatran better (which your team does seem to need). Garchomp isn't really a bad Pokemon but Landorus-T usually outclasses it.
  5. Kai1998


    Dec 2, 2016
    Yeah I can definitely see that. I think it holds some value over Lando as a better z crystal user, but overall it certainly is outclassed by lando in most ways. That being said, C+ seems a bit harsh to me. I haven't ever posted on these forms before but I guess i nominate him for a higher ranking, probably in the B range? (if that's how this works)
  6. Test Bot #

    Test Bot #

    May 7, 2016
    I've noticed that Volcarona is not in the VR. As you all know it's quite strong with a boost from Quiver Dance, and can bring out a strong Inferno Overdrive (+1, +2, ...). Also, having Milotic around really supports its offensive presence; Milotic deters Landorus-T and Salamence-Mega from switching in because Icy Wind (boosted by Competitive) guarantees their elimination. I'd say that Volcarona should definitely be in "B" at minimum.
    Demantoid likes this.
  7. Kai1998


    Dec 2, 2016
    He's B+
  8. Test Bot #

    Test Bot #

    May 7, 2016
    yeah, Demantoid put it up after i mentioned it.
    Demantoid likes this.
  9. ProjectTitan313


    Jan 30, 2012
    > Cobalion actually existing on a viability ranking.
    Gods what I done.

    A note for Garchomp though is that it can run Fire Blast to at least tickle physically bulky Celesteela, while Landog does literally fucking nothing except deter Heavy Slam (which Rough Skin also does to a degree). And it's not like Garchomp is using Dragon STAB much in our Steel/Fairy heavy meta so it kinda does have room for it. I find that basically anything you would want to Dragon Claw just beats the hell out of it anyway, ie Mence, Hydra (loves Scarf), Cress...
  10. Kai1998


    Dec 2, 2016
    As a question, is Darkrai banned from doubles? If i remember correctly he is, but it seems silly to allow creselia and ban Darkrai
  11. cant say

    cant say Banned juicer.
    is a Tutoris a member of the Site Staffis an official Team Rateris a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Super Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Battle Server Moderator
    Battle Spot Leader

    Sep 12, 2012
    despite them being a "pair" within the game's lore; Darkrai is an event-only legend whereas Cresselia is catchable in nearly every game. Battle Spot bans event / mythical legends.
    Demantoid likes this.
  12. Test Bot #

    Test Bot #

    May 7, 2016
    Bronzong should be added to B-. It's most notable for its un-Taunt-able Z-TR, which also boosts its accuracy. This allows Brozong to spam Hypnosis and allow its teammates to do what they needs to do. Furthermore, Hypnosis is unlike Spore, so the only Sleep check an opposing team can bring is Tapu Koko or Tapu Fini. Bronzong is definitely impacting the meta, so add it to the VR.
    3heartschall and Demantoid like this.
  13. Demantoid

    Demantoid [10:43:28] #Mishiimono)⊙﹏⊙✿( kills a dewgong

    Mar 20, 2015
    Discuss the following possible changes

    Mega Kangaskhan B+ -> A
    Tapu Fini A- -> A
    Amoonguss A- -> A
    Sylveon B+ -> B-
    Mimikyu C- -> C+
    Mega Mawile UR -> B+
    Rotom-W A- -> B+
    Thundurus-T UR -> A-
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2017
    Mishimono likes this.
  14. Mishimono


    Jun 14, 2015
    I think A is good for Kanga since it has really high usage and Fake Out is always useful and its still threatening especially after a Power-Up Punch. A for Tapu Fini also seems good since it is also really common, especially on Kang balance teams and it's probably the best and most splashable water-type. It can run a bunch of different sets like Choice Specs, Calm Mind and defensive with swagger which makes it easy to fit on teams and really threatening. I don't think Amoon should rise because its not very common and there are a lot of offensive threats that can deal with it easily and Spore getting stopped by Misty and Electric terrain is really bad. I think Sylveon is really bad this gen since generally a Tapu is just better on your team and steels are really common this gen. It also has a terrible speedtier which allows it to be KOd really easily. Mimikyu is a really solid Trick Room setter with Mental Herb or Focus Sash so I think it could rise, but not higher since its really weak and doesn't do much else. I used Rotom-W on a sun team and I didn't think it was too good. It loses to all the Tapus and is slower and frailer than other mons it faces competition for such Zapdos and Milotic. Its unique typing is still god for some teams, but I think B+ is better.
    Threw, GreenGogoatttt and Demantoid like this.
  15. WallaceTheChampion


    Dec 14, 2016
    How can Garchomp be ranked C+ when he is the most used Pokémon after Tapu Lele, Landorus-T and Tapu Koko?
    Choice Scarf Garchomp can easily handle Tapu Koko, and every Garchomp set can handle Heatran and Arcanine. Also Garchomp's Held Item is pretty unpredictable because it can be a Z-move user or being Scarfed or it can even run Focus Sash! I know it is outclassed by Landorus-T but still.
    Also the Description from C+ says this:

    You can tell me a lot but that the the 4th most used Pokémon in the format is mediocre is a lie. Also Garchomp doesnt need much team support, and yes Garchomp is outclassed by Landorus-T but dropping him in C+ is a pretty bad decision. Nominating for A.
  16. Jibaku

    Jibaku Who let marco in here????
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Team Rater Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Live Chat Contributor Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Champion

    Dec 13, 2005
    I do want to point out that it seems that BS dubs stats have a bit of VGC stats mixed in there for whatever reason (people hopping on the wrong ladder?). Pokemon like Arcanine or Kartana have no business being that high in usage (Arcanine's top 10 teammates are literally all VGC17 legal lol). I think usage isn't too great of an argument for this ladder.
    Demantoid, DragonWhale and cant say like this.
  17. WallaceTheChampion


    Dec 14, 2016
    But still, seeing Garchomp being ranked as high as Non-Mega Swampert and Gothitelle is pretty strange.
  18. DragonWhale

    DragonWhale It's not a misplay, it's RNG manipulation
    is a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributor

    May 14, 2014
    Garchomp is outclassed completely by landorus-t and has no business being anywhere in A or B. It's only good in doubles formats where lando-t doesn't exist, like vgc14 and 17.
    TheMantyke and Demantoid like this.
  19. Jhon

    Jhon Someday in the Rain
    is a Pre-Contributor
    BSS Tour Champion

    Sep 20, 2012
    Both Swampert and Gothitelle are good, this isn't calling Garchomp a bad pokemon in anyway.
    As others have mentioned it is outclassed by Landorus-T in most cases. It does, however, have a valuable Fire resistance and >100 speed which makes it worth considering in place of Landorus-T on some Charizard-Y weak teams. I've used Garchomp to good success for this reason before.
    C+ is fair.
    cant say and Demantoid like this.
  20. Steven Stone

    Steven Stone

    Jul 13, 2014
    Alright. I labbed quite a bit with Rotom-H, and now I'm ready to make my nomination.

    I nominate Rotom-H from B- to B+

    I know this may sound a bit radical, but offensive Rotom-H is an incredible Pokemon with a lot of potential, and has no business staying in B-, and these are the reasons.

    First of all, its an Electric-type, and Electric-type Pokemon are amazing in this format. As of now, it's also the only Electric-type Pokemon who can severely harm Ferrothorn, which also has its own merit, but that's not why Rotom-H is good.

    Thanks to the addition of Z-Moves, Rotom-H has gained access to a devastating Fire-type STAB that allows it to OHKO many relevant Pokemon in the metagame, while being speedy enough to outspeed big hitters like Tapu Bulu with little to no effort, without needing to lower its SpA. Rotom-H's typing and also allows it to sponge multiple hits from common threats in the metagame. Here's the amount of top tier mons it can consistently beat 1on1/ OHKO / wall / heavily damage:
    • Landorus-T
    • Aegislash
    • Mega Charizard Y
    • Heatran
    • Mega Salamence
    • Tapu Koko
    • Amoonguss
    • Celesteela
    • Thundurus-T
    • Zapdos
    • Tapu Bulu
    • Ferrothorn
    If you want to calculate, here's my Rotom-H set:

    Rotom-Heat @ Firium Z
    Ability: Levitate
    Level: 50
    EVs: 252 HP / 20 Def / 92 SpA / 4 SpD / 140 Spe
    Modest Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Overheat
    - Thunderbolt
    - Hidden Power [Ice]
    - Protect

    It should be noted that Hidden Power Ice won't OHKO Scarf Landorus-T, but Z-Overheat will. HP Ice must be used against Pokemon like Mega Salamence or Assault Vest Landorus-T, and it'll fail the OHKO as well, but none of these can easily beat Rotom-H 1v1 either. Water-type Pokemon can offer a challenge, but Rotom-H's Thunderbolt can match them for chip damage.

    Rotom-H, however, suffers from an awkward speed tier and lack of recovery, which sort of stops it from being higher up. Its neutral damage output can be underwhelming sometimes, specially against Pokemon that wall Fire-types moves and aren't weak to Rotom-H's other options, like Tyranitar or Heatran. A smart player can attempt to wall Rotom-H's Inferno Overdrive with a Protect then switch to something to wall the Overheat to shake off the pressure, but exerting this pressure can lead into a positional advantage that only extremely offensive combinations can offer, which can be useful for forcing certain threats out and damage them or straight up OHKO them. If Rotom-H also has speed advantage, then the opponent will have a hard time surviving.
  21. flarz


    Apr 19, 2014
    Two Pokemon that I'd like to make a point to rise a tier are Araquanid and Kartana. Lots of CHALK based teams now are dropping Amoonguss, and Araquanid straight up murders Heatran and Landorus, as well as Kangaskhan with a well timed Hydro Vortex. Cresselia can't really touch it, and it can hit the increasingly popular Tapu Fini with Poison Jab for decent damage. It all gets Bug Bite as a unique utility for stealing berries off of Pokemon that commonly have FIWAM berries such as Snorlax or Cresselia. It also puts in WORK vs Sand cores and overall is just a menace to play against unless your opponent has significant TR checks

    Kartana is another one that hasn't seen much usage at the top level and I'm not sure why. Kartana hits the opposite of the speed spectrum, even outrunning Terrakion by a point. It's not splashable by any means, but it constantly pressures Tapu Fini and Tapu Lele, while also removing bulky waters i.e. Suicune and hits Kangaskhan, Heatran, Hydreigon, Tyranitar, Excadrill, etc for >50% with Sacred Sword. The Z Move sets are almost like a guaranteed nuke that can allow Kartana to pick up an easy beast boost and snowball out of control if its partners can deal with the opponent's special attackers.

    I'd like to see Araquanid in B+
    and Kartana rising to B rank
    Martin890, Demantoid and Psynergy like this.
  22. ProjectTitan313


    Jan 30, 2012
    MegaGross is also relevent to obliterate without needing to cripple yourself. That thing adores Tapus. Also puts decent pressure on Tapu Fini, your spread 2HKOs 252/4 sets.
    Landog I've never been confident with however, Rock Slide and the not-so-rare AV sets just shit all over it. Landog cannot ignore Rotom-H, that is certain, but Rotom-H is in a really bad pickle if you don't outspeed.
    God damn it this makes me want to find the EZ bake and try this. I thrived on Expert Belt but this has me legitimately interested.
  23. Steven Stone

    Steven Stone

    Jul 13, 2014
    My spread was an odds management kind of spread. It minimizes the chances of a 252+ Landorus-T that outspeeds me beating Rotom-H 1v1 by a significant amount (252+ Atk Landorus-T Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 20 Def Rotom-H: 70-84 (44.5 - 53.5%) -- 27.7% chance to 2HKO) while also allowing it to beat the slower variants 100% of the time. HP Ice will almost always 2HKO AV Landorus-T UNLESS they invest enough in bulk to the point where HP Ice has a chance to 2HKO, but that benefits me in terms of speed. Furthermore, I took into account Rock Slide's known nature of being COMPLETELY RNG dependant and even then, Rotom-H has the upper hand (This actually made me want to try Continental Crush Garchomp lol). So, my Rotom-H will most of the time perform at the adequate level against Landoge.
    (Besides, my team has like 4 different checks to it so fuck Landorus lol)
    ProjectTitan313 likes this.
  24. GraylyHen94


    Jul 13, 2016
    Steven, my main man, tell people the truth of Rotom-H in Doubles. I, too, have been using Rotom-H on a team that Steven Stone has posted. It's incredible Z-Power, excellent offensive/defensive typing/stats/ability, as well as it's fantastic coverage make Rotom-H a force to be reckoned with. It struggles against teams that utilize Cresselia as a support/TR, but it's team mates can make up for that. Dark types are not as amazing as they were last gen due to the addition of fast Fairy types, so an excellent anti-Cress partner for Rotom-H is LO Gengar, Z-Move Gengar, and Mega Gengar. Z-Shadow Ball Gengar has the damage calc of 252 SpA Gengar Never-Ending Nightmare (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Cresselia: 218-258 (96 - 113.6%) -- 75% chance to OHKO vs the typical Cresselia. While this does sacrifice Rotom's new power in Z-Overheat, it can make up for one of his glaring weaknesses. Other problems are T-Tar, but Tapu Fini is also on the list of Rotom-H's allies. I highly recommend using Rotom-H more, and seeing how much of an improvement a drawback free Overheat can be.

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Jul 22, 2017
  25. marilli

    marilli two, but one.
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Nov 26, 2010
    I think in light of this being the last few months of BSD until Ultra S&M is released and changes legalities and introduces new tutors / Z-Moves / Formes, the VR deserves to see an update!

    Here are some talking points to generate some BSD forum discussion:
    • Mega Kangaskhan: A -> A+
    Kangaskhan is still the most prominent Mega Pokemon in the tier, and Cresselia / M-Kangaskhan / Landorus / Tapu Fini based balance cores are still really strong! Mega Kangaskhan deserves to still be in the talk for the title of the best Mega in the game.
    • Mega Gardevoir: UR (Unreleased) -> A- / B+
    • Mega Swampert: UR (Unreleased) -> A- / B+
    Swampertite is now released and this Pokemon is much better off than in ORAS, due to the new Mega Evolution speed recalculation mechanic. It can gain the Swift Swim speed boost turn 1 without protecting, and that makes Mega Swampert give out more pressure from turn 1. B+ is the same tier as M-Mawile, which is a fair comparison because both has similar potential to really pop off and take over the game, but their dominance is conditional.
    • Mega Abomasnow: UR (Unreleased) -> B / B-
    • Mega Camerupt: UR (Unreleased) -> B-
    • Tapu Lele: A+ -> A
    Tapu Lele is higher ranked than Tapu Fini right now, but this is pretty sketchy. Lele usage is highly concentrated on Tailwind beatdown teams or with Mega Metagross. This makes her a lot less flexible than Pokemon in A+, almost all of which can work on just about any team with any partners.
    • Celesteela: A -> A-
    This kind of feels passive but this and gets throttled by the Electrics and Fires and Rain that's very common, and most teams are instead opting to use Aegislash / Ferrothorn as their Steel-type of choice, for their offensive presence. This is still very good but is a step below Cress / Fini / Amoonguss.
    • Ferrothorn: B+ -> A-
    Ferrothorn has been gaining a lot of popularity for serving as a Rain check, Lele / Gross check, and Kang / Fini check rolled into 1. It hits quite hard for a bulky Pokemon, and can win matches on its own. However, it has matchup issues with the weakness to common Fighting- and Fire-type moves. For prepared opponents, Ferrothorn is easily beat with the correct matchup or tech move. Still, the fact that it forces your opponent to bring certain Pokemon just by showing itself in team preview makes it a top-tier cheerleader and role player.
    • Hydreigon: B+ -> B / B-
    Hydreigon is very hard to use. Dark-type is a great neutral attacking type, but with its Draco Meteor often neutralized by Fairies and Misty Terrain, Hydreigon finds itself struggling against the general field. As a result, Hydreigon ends up a highly specialized bench player picked against certain matchup for the Speed advantage with either Tailwind, or with Scarf set which gives speed safety net and U-turn utility for better control of weather and Terrain.
    • Conkeldurr: B+ -> B
    • Bisharp: B+ -> B
    • Scrafty C+ -> B-
    • Gothitelle: C+ -> B / B-
    • Snorlax: C+ -> B+ / B
    Snorlax is a threat in Doubles matches.
    • Hawlucha: UR -> B-
    • Smeargle: UR -> C+
    Some missing supporter Pokemon that I believe is too good in the Metagame to be left out, but I know that if you really wanted to be thorough the C / C- tiers would be filled with boatloads of usable-but-niche mons, so I'm not really gonna bother too much below that!

    Feel free to tell me why some of these changes are bad!

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