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DP Battle Tower Records

Discussion in 'Smogon's Greatest Hits' started by Peterko, Sep 20, 2007.

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  1. Jumpman16

    Jumpman16 np: Michael Jackson - "Mon in the Mirror" (DW mix)
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    I have played literally thousands of battles in the DP Battle Tower and through my experiences I am convinced that it is virtually impossible to avoid getting hacked for over 900 battles in a row even if you have a fantastic team. And Viper did not, as literally evidenced by his seemingly random switching of teams.

    It's just really hard for me to believe that anyone is that lucky, regardless of how good their team is and how well they use it, to win over 900 battles in a row. Maybe the German AI is different or something but it's still a very tough pill to swallow. And again, I am speaking from experience I'm pretty sure no one else here has besides maybe TRE (I just checked and I have 3490 Battle Points, lol =/).
  2. garo

    garo

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    well when i noticed about vipstar´s streak the discussion was ended a long time ago, so i didnt say my opinion, anyway i always considered like TRE having the first place, jumpman16 the second and so on, because as jumpman said anyone with some experience at the battle tower wont find a reasonable answer to this: how this guy got that awesome streak just putting together some OU pokes and swtiching pokes every 100 battles?
    some guys said that maybe he got the ultimate luckily streak, but even with extreme luck that is not enough to get that streak, and the argument of the different AI because the german version, i dont think that Gamefreak changed the AI level in the japanesse, american, german, etc. versions i just cant see a reason to do that, if that is true then there will be a streak list for every version separately, because it will be unfair with the players having a higher AI level version be listed with players with a lower AI level version.
    i just think that even with an almost perfect team that counters the maximum possible AI strategies at the tower, even with that is hard to get a 300 streak, i cant see how to get 900+.
  3. shipship

    shipship

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    It's entirely possible to run above expectation for a very long time (there is no such thing as being "due") but the probability gets progressively lower. With that said, among the many thousands of people who have taken the BT seriously, a couple are likely to run that far above the "luck curve." It's simple statistics really.

    If I were to place a bet, I would bet that the streak of 900+ is AR modified, but I cannot say with certainty. It's extremely improbable for sure, but cannot be ruled out.
  4. Team Rocket Elite

    Team Rocket Elite Data Integration Thought Entity
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    I just checked and I have 3490 Battle Points, lol =/

    I have:
    English Pearl: 7881
    Japanese Diamond: 2025
    Total:9906

    And that's excluding the 1000-2000 BP I already spent. =D
  5. garo

    garo

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    i know about statistics, and there is a chance for everything to happen, but when the chances are so small that fall in an almost impossibility the safest choice is to assume that that just never happened, if the experiment was so uncommon that it cant be repeated to ensure it, we cant take it as a real fact, otherwise anyone can say he reached a bigger streak with a team that doesnt really backup his streak and because the statistics we cant say with a 100% certainty that he is lying even if he is, anyway because we are depending on luck to find an explanation then we dont have a comprobable reason so the streak cant be listed with the ones that have a logical explanation, assuming that the 900+ streak really happened and was just because the luck then it was reached not by a solid strategy and experience, was just a matter of statistics, so the other records were reached not by luck and are verifiable anytime, then there will be a list called "your luckiest and improbable streak".
  6. shipship

    shipship

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    I agree with you, and I said myself that it's probably not legit.

    My point was that everything has a certain probability of happening. 900 wins is very very improbable, but not "astronomically" improbable.
  7. Cherish

    Cherish

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    So, my streak ended at an unfortunate 148.

    The team I used was:

    Wobbuffet @ Lum Berry
    Shadow Tag
    Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
    4 HP/ 252 Def/ 252 SDef
    (31/x/31/x/31/x)
    - Encore
    - Safeguard
    - Counter
    - Mirror Coat

    Gengar @ Focus Sash
    Levitate
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    4 HP/ 252 SAtk/ 252 Spd
    (28/x/2/31/27/31)
    - Shadow Ball
    - Thunderbolt
    - Counter
    - Destiny Bond

    Lucario @ Muscle Band
    Steadfast
    Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    4 HP/ 252 Atk/ 252 Spd
    (26/31/28/x/27/31)
    - Swords Dance
    - Close Combat
    - Crunch
    - ExtremeSpeed

    Yeah, you've probably seen it before... It's Carl's team.
    I liked it from the moment I first saw it. It's not that hard to use, I like the idea of using an Uber against the AI, and it's simply effective.
    I just hope you don't mind I copied your team, Carl.

    The loss was against a team with a Quick Claw Heatran, a CM Suicune and a Regirock. It was quite a weird match of which I don't remember everything anymore... It ended when a Quick Clawed Crunch from Heatran finished off my Gengar. Wobb was already on low health and was easily KO'ed in the end by Regirock.
    Nevertheless I found this team has difficulties handling bulky waters, Choice users (Band and Specs) and certain Double Team users. (but which team doesn't?)

    Anyway, I would like to know if someone has some improvements for the team? It's an excellent team for the BT, but I think some things can be improved.
    I was wondering if Hasty wouldn't be better on Gengar for the additional Defense drop, for better Counter use? It might chance the ammount of damage to the not-so-hard physical hitters... But it leaves me with less HP as well.
    And I'm doubting Muscle Band... I don't know if Life Orb would do better, it's like the same question for Gengar's Nature. Is the additional damage worth the HP loss?
    Maybe I should just try out, but I would like to know your opinion as well! Any other item suggestions are welcom of course.

    I might go in again after some time and improving, but I cannot motivate myself right know...
  8. Peterko

    Peterko Never give up!
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    updated once again

    I don´t want this topic to turn into a debate about how much a 900+ streak is improbable so I´ve made a slight change to the list...check out the first post to see what I mean
  9. Jumpman16

    Jumpman16 np: Michael Jackson - "Mon in the Mirror" (DW mix)
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    thanks peterko, i think that's fair and i'm sorry that i dont trust the guy and/or his record if that makes you feel bad, it's for the best that the best thread on smogon not be derailed about it =)
  10. Hazmat

    Hazmat

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    Being one of the few people on Smogon I actually respect, I salute you.

    pip pip, cheerio, and holy crap.
  11. garo

    garo

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    thanks for the update peterko, i think its more fair this way with the vipstar´s streak listed separately, it wont be erased because you trust this guy so much i think.
  12. bach47

    bach47

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  13. Team Rocket Elite

    Team Rocket Elite Data Integration Thought Entity
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    A slight change to my Double Battle Tower Team, and probably the last change for this team strategy.

    Bronzong @ Lum Berry
    Trait: Heatproof
    Nature: Brave (+Atk, -Speed)
    EVs: 252 HP, 252 Atk, 6 Sp.Def
    -Trick Room
    -Gyro Ball
    -Earthquake
    -Explosion

    Lv1 Starly @ Focus Sash
    Trait: Keen Eye
    Nature: Impish (+Def, -SpAtk) (not that it matters)
    EVs: Zero (not that it matters)
    -Protect
    -Endeavor
    -Rain Dance
    -Foresight

    You should already be familiar with my two starters. Turn 1 = Protect + Trick Room, Then you start Endeavor + Attack afterwards. Explosions when necessary, etc.

    Dusknoir @ Leftovers
    Trait: Pressure
    Nature: Careful(+SpDef, -SpAtk) (Sassy would be better)
    EVs: 252 HP, 58 Def, 200 Sp. Def
    -Will-O-Wisp
    -Night Shade
    -Protect
    -Rest

    Same Dusknoir.

    And the new member...

    Snorlax @ Life Orb
    Trait: Thick Fat
    Nature: Brave (+Atk, -Speed)
    EVs: 100 HP, 252 Atk, 160 Def
    -Double-Edge
    -Crunch
    -Earthquake
    -Selfdestruct

    Snorlax replaces Exeggutor as the secondary bomb of the team. While Double-Edge has a bad habit of leaving a lot of things at about 5-20% of their HP remaining, it is more than made up with the overkill Selfdestruct. How powerful is the Selfdestuct? At 100% strength, the only things that could probably be expected to survive it in the Battle Tower are Regirock, Registeel, Steelix, Aggron, Bastiodon, and sometimes Tyranitar, Metagross, and Rhyperior. Ghosts can survive it, unless I forsight them. 75% Selfdestructs will deal 85~100% damage to my Bronzong, thus still packs more than enough of a punch for most Pokemon. Unfortunately, my Bronzong does not have perfect IVs for Defense and HP. If it did, the damage range would be 82%-97% and would always be able survive.

    Since Snorlax has Thick Fat, it fares a lot better against things like Moltres and Heatran, which could have given my previous team some troubles. Also, Thick Fat allows for easier combat against Ice Trainers, but it doesn't help me at all against the main threats that they hold. It also helps that Snorlax can take hits a lot better than Exeggutor can. A lot of times Exeggutor can be blindsided by Quick Claw Ice Beams/Megahorns, causing it to go down before it can blow up the opposition. At worse Snorlax has to worry about Quick Claw, Critical Hit Hammer Arms/Meteor Mash etc., which aren't very likely to occur.

    One downside to replacing Exeggutor is that I now have no secondary Trick Room user. You probably end up in even worse shape if hit by a Turn 1 OHKO, dealt by Glalie, Lapras, Dewgong, or Walrein, than if Exeggutor was on the team. Taking out Bronzong is more or less taking out Starly as well now, leaving the team in a 2 on 4 situation where you go last.

    During my run, it was largely uneventful. Bronzong was almost never targetted with OHKO, and there weren't any particularly memorable close calls that happened. Then...

    In starting up another set of seven, my first opponent was Ace Trainer Celina, an Ice Pokemon Trainer. She sends out a Walrein and a Glalie. I send out my usual Bronzong and Starly. Walreins on turn 1 are never a good sign, especially if you know that there is a chance of it being that deadly OHKO spam Walrein. But regardless of if it is the OHKO Walrein or not, I will always use the same moves on turn 1.

    [Turn #1]
    Starly used Protect!
    Starly protected itself!
    Foe Glalie used Hail! (!!)
    Foe Walrein used Sheer Cold!
    It's a one-hit KO!
    Bronzong Fainted!
    Hail continues to fall.
    Starly is buffeted by the hail!

    What the Glalie did there was quite unusual since it does have damaging attacks (Hail/Blizzard/Dark Pulse/Explosion), but is not something that I haven't seen done before. What the Walrein did there was be a jerk and land the 30% on Bronzong. I'm now in a bad situation, made worse as now my Starly's Focus Sash has been deactivated. I can either switch to Dusknoir or Snorlax. Dusknoir can't do too much here but I decide to switch it in first instead of Snorlax. I know that the Glalie can't do too much damage to my Pokemon, so it might be good to waste its PP. Starly is pretty much dead weight here, but I decide to keep it alive as it can help in stalling.

    [Turn #2]
    Switch Starly for Snorlax.
    Glalie used Blizzard!
    Walrein used Sheer Cold!
    But the attack missed!
    Dusknoir used Will-o-wisp!
    Glalie was burned.
    Hail continues to fall.

    Why burn the Glalie? Because damaging the Walrein means that it can use rest and start sleep talking up OHKOs. Snorlax is now in play, so I decide to try to Double-Edge Glalie to take it out. Dusknoir used Protect as I don't want it falling to OHKOs.

    [Turn #3]
    Dusknoir used Protect!
    Dusknoir protected itself!
    Glalie used Dark Pulse.
    Walrein used Sheer Cold!
    It's a one-hit KO!
    Snorlax Fainted!
    Hail continues to fall!

    By this point, my chances of victory go from slim to almost non-existant, then...

    [Turn #4]
    Starly used Protect!
    Starly protected itself!
    Glalie used Dark Pulse!
    It's super effective!
    Walrein used Fissure!
    It's a one-hit KO!
    Dusknoir Fainted!
    Hail continues to fall!

    ...From almost non-existant, to being completely gone.

    [Turn #5]
    Glalie used Blizzard!
    It's super effective!
    Starly Fainted!
    Player was defeated!

    With this last change to my team, I've effectively made this team only have 1 real weakness. Thus the Double Battle Tower becomes a game of "How long can I win before I meet that damn Walrein that has a 30% chance of killing me?", it was around 340, 114, and 83 the last few times I've tried this team, and apparantly the answer this time is:

    Double Battle
    Team Rocket Elite (770) - Bronzong, Starly, Dusknoir, Snorlax

    http://members.shaw.ca/teamrocketelite/TREBattleTower7.JPG

    I was hoping to reach 777, but luck wasn't with me.
  14. Shelcario

    Shelcario

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    WOW, TRE that's the most impressive BT doubles record I've ever seen and it totally gets me pumped to get some major BT record. Truly, congratulations:)
  15. -K-

    -K-

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    These records are proof that DP metagame isn't only offensive.
  16. Jumpman16

    Jumpman16 np: Michael Jackson - "Mon in the Mirror" (DW mix)
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    Congrats and I'm glad you've been playing and proving without a doubt just how good your team is.
  17. shipship

    shipship

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    I replaced my CB-Tar with a different T-Tar:

    Tyranitar @ Lum Berry
    Jolly / Sand Stream
    EV's: 252 Att, 252 Speed, 6 HP
    Stone Edge
    Crunch
    Earthquake
    Dragon Dance

    Trades off immediate power for more speed and sweeping potential. Outspeeds the likes of Starmie after one DD. Lum Berry to heal random status while setting up.

    I like this one better than my previous T-Tar.

    Now at 189 wins. :)

    I'm slightly less afraid of Sheer Cold users as Tyranitar now outspeeds more of them. OHKO users in general are still my biggest scare, but I'm not really going to weaken my team in other ways to deal with them specifically. Just going to see how long I can avoid being haxed.
  18. Ashenlock

    Ashenlock

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    Does anyone know what inclines the Battle Tower pokemon to switch? If an enemy pokemon is both Encored and Disabled, will it switch out (if it is not trapped)? Sorry if this has been addressed already, I haven't read through the entire thread.
  19. Team Rocket Elite

    Team Rocket Elite Data Integration Thought Entity
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    Last turn of Perish Song or your Pokemon is immune to all the opponent Pokemon's damaging attacks. Second one doesn't apply if the opponent doesn't have damaging attacks. A third possibility if the opponent switching to a Pokemon that immune to an attack you just used. This case is very rare. Othar than that, the CPU sometimes switches for reasons I don't understand. This is even more rare then the third case.
  20. shipship

    shipship

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    The CPU just baffles me sometimes.

    Some guys will use a Choice Banded EQ, and even after I switch in a flier or levitator, they will stay in and use EQ...
  21. gorm

    gorm
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    i can't help but disagree with you for saying that the competitive metagame is tied to the BT... the BT is mostly who can abuse the AI better.
  22. garo

    garo

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    as TRE said, the AI definitely will switch when your poke has immunity to the CPU attacks, everytime i faced 550 Drifblim with rotom, he switched out the first turn.
  23. FastHippo

    FastHippo

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    I have had pokes with 2 or 3 Double Teams switch against my team, after I missed with a super effective attack. Natural Cure pokes, switch on turn 2, when I Yawn them.
  24. Ashenlock

    Ashenlock

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    Ah, thank you for all the responses. I guess a Struggle-forced opponent will stay in then.

    Also, a delayed response, but that's a pretty incredible record. On a more underwhelming note, I realized only after going through the tower for my record that Flower Gift boosts SpDef, not SpAtk. I guess that's the sort of stupid mistake that substantiates the giant gap between 1st and 2nd place.
  25. garo

    garo

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    with my trick team i have had many opponents with low pp moves and all of them stays in when were forced to struggle and die in five or four turns (five turns mostly) so struggle is not a switch out factor as far as i know.
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