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DP Battle Tower Records

Discussion in 'Smogon's Greatest Hits' started by Peterko, Sep 20, 2007.

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  1. MKDSJedi

    MKDSJedi

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    lol...something funny did happen when I switched out Infernape for Guts CB Adamant Heracross on a second run (which capped at 45, arrrrgh)...switched in on a Blissey Toxic. Then I used Close Combat. Overkill much? =D
  2. Shelcario

    Shelcario

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    Do you guys waste a lot of time when breeding for a Battle Tower Team, almost perfect IVs such as 30/31/30/29/28/30?, right nature such as Adamant on a Weavile? Thanks:)
  3. Ashenlock

    Ashenlock

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    I didn't early on a year ago, but I do now. Really, this is where the difference between a few IV points is most pronounced, with continuous repetitive battles to increase the probability that you will eventually be in your worst case scenario and need the best pokemon possible. The long climb up doesn't tolerate cut corners, especially with such a narrow team size, whose members need to be as good as they can get to pass hundreds of battles with so few moves.
  4. MKDSJedi

    MKDSJedi

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    Weavile needs Jolly. If you need a reason, wait until you come up against Modest Jolteons in the Tower...
  5. shipship

    shipship

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    This team finally lost at 267 wins:

    Tyranitar @ Lum Berry
    Nature: Jolly (+ speed, - sp att)
    Ability: Sand Stream
    EV's: 252 att, 252 speed, 6 HP
    - Stone Edge
    - Crunch
    - Earthquake
    - Dragon Dance

    Garchomp @ Yache Berry
    Nature: Jolly (+ speed, - sp att)
    Ability: Sand Veil
    EV's: 252 att, 252 speed, 6 HP
    - Dragon Claw
    - Earthquake
    - Fire Fang
    - Swords Dance

    Bronzong @ Leftovers
    Nature: Bold (+ def, - att)
    Ability: Levitate
    EV's: 252 HP, 252 def, 6 speed
    Flash Cannon
    Psychic
    Calm Mind
    Rest

    This team lost to a Wailord, of all things!

    Wailord 4 Quick Claw 277 99 65 156 65 80 Hydro Pump Fissure Ice Beam Captivate

    Battle went like this:
    I send out Tyranitar, opponent sends out Wailord. Sandstorm starts.

    I don't want to take a water attack, so I go to Bronzong, who can usually deal with any Wailord variant after Calm Minding.

    Wailord Fissures first turn, which doesn't affect Bronzong. He then tries a Hydro Pump, which misses, and gives me a free Calm Mind. I'm feeling really good about the battle right now, but on the third turn his Hydro Pump scores a critical hit (ignoring my CM boost) which puts me in red. I select Rest, hoping for a miss or that I will barely survive another hit with 2 CM boosts. No such luck, and Bronzong faints, having done nothing.

    I bring out Yache Chomp. I decide that my best play is Swords Dance, since I can't OHKO a Wailord at 75% health with EQ. His Quick Claw activates, he Ice Beams me. This Quick Claw didn't matter, as I wasn't attacking this turn anyway. So I'm in yellow at this point (Yache Berry) with +2 attack and ready to sweep. I'm sure you know where this is going... QC activates again, and he kills me with Ice Beam.

    Back to Tyranitar again. I decide that if I'm going to have any chance of winning, I need to take a risk and set-up DD, as he still has 2 unknown pokemon and Tyranitar really needs a boost to sweep. His QC activates yet again, but luckily his Fissure whiffs. I'm sitting at +1 attack and +1 speed. I select Crunch, but his QC activates yet again, for the 4th time in a row. Thankfully his Fissure misses again, and I finally kill him with Crunch.

    Tyranitar still has 100% health and 1 DD boost, so this is not a hopeless situation at all. Opponent brings out Gallade... crap. I Crunch, and he barely manages to hold on. I'm hoping this is one of the variants without Close Combat, as I can survive Leaf Blade, but not CC. No such luck obviously. CC it is, GG.
  6. Sparko

    Sparko

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    I hate battle tower... it always haxes against my team =( stupid fissure... btw anyone know a basic effective team to use?
  7. Shelcario

    Shelcario

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    Jumpman's team is the probably the most effective or you can find other effective teams by other people such as ShipShip's team, also thanks for the help guys, guess I'll be breeding for a while:)
  8. Bran

    Bran

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    I am currently on my highest streak ever for the battle tower singles. It is currently at 84, and I am aiming for magic #100. I am currently using a Gengar as my lead, followed by Gyrados and Garchomp. The killer G's!!!!

    In terms of how to battle, the Gengar actually is Vivi's Focus Sash Gengar. It outspeeds about everything in the tower, and the goal is to take down 2 pokemon with it. His movepool consists of HP Ice/Counter/ Hypnosis/ Destiny Bond. HP Ice allows it to take down the top tier dragons instantly, while Counter/Focus Sash instantly OHKO's all physical attacks. Hypnosis is there if you don't like the match-up, and you want to bring-in one of the other two pokemon for a better match-up. Destiny Bond is THE key move here, and with Gengar's speed, you are almost guarantee to take a pokemon down with you. Even if you fail to kill it with counter or put it to sleep, you are guaranteed a 1-for-1 exchange, and with Gyrados/Garchomp as the other two pokes, the odds are in your favor to finish.

    Gyrados is your standard Bulkydos.

    Garchomp up to this point was Adamant nature, and did not have outrage. I just acquired the redistributable Jolly nature one with Outrage, but I have not battled with it yet.

    The only big weakness I had up to this point is facing a fast pokemon, after Gengar is killed, with bolt/beam, such as Starmie Garchomp's got yache berry so I can at least take one hit from it, but it's not enough. The jolly garchomp I received is quite important, because the enemies in the battle tower are not as great as pokemon on wi-fi when it comes to stats. Early on, the Adamant Garchomp outsped Starmie, but the last time I faced it, Starmie was faster, and if I didn't have Gengar to desiny bond, it would of been over for me. So with a jolly garchomp, I do not see a glaring weakness that will end my streak. Now to wait for the horrible 'hax!'
  9. Jumpman16

    Jumpman16 np: Michael Jackson - "Mon in the Mirror" (DW mix)
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    Man, I would be pretty disgusted at losing at 267 or 275 or 310 or 329 wins (I've memorized the top...I feel worse for you for losing one before my/a record than you losing in general. Both 265 or 275 would have been better...sucks. "QC is lame" but congrats on making it so high
  10. MKDSJedi

    MKDSJedi

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    Initially, when I hadn't heard of EVs and natures I used an in-game QC Empoleon. And QC ALWAYS seemed to activate when the opponent was slower than me already, or Flying, or Digging...

    Surprisingly on most of my runs I don't get haxed...the computer AI can be a bit off at times which is fun. Such as a Forretress only needing to hit Heracross with Double-Edge to win (TR situation) using Toxic...bringing him into OHKO range.
  11. Groombridge

    Groombridge

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    I sympathise: I had exactly the same thing happen to me a couple of days ago in Doubles. My Chomp got QC Ice Beamed by that bastard whale, only the Ice Beam scored a crit (of course) and it OHKO'd Chomp before it could get all Japanese science expedition on its ass. I've added 'fucking exploding whales' to my BT Red Alert list, along with all Ice types, Rhywhatever and also Lickylicky, because I hate it.
  12. Jumpman16

    Jumpman16 np: Michael Jackson - "Mon in the Mirror" (DW mix)
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    Yeah, the AI loves to use "weaker" moves against your pokemon when they're in the yellow and even more so when you're in the red. This can be a good thing or a bad thing. Two examples:

    680 Nidoking Modest Expert Belt Earth Power Sludge Bomb Ice Beam Shadow Ball HP/Sp. Atk

    I have faced this at least twice with a once-Swords Danced Lucario at 1 HP. I decide to save Luke because CC probably won't kill (though the last two times I've faced Nidoqueen in this same situation I have killed it, which indicates that it very likely had a 0 Def IV, a 0 HP EV, no HP EVs [two of four have no defensive IVs] AND a -Def nature [there is an 81.25% chance she survives a +2 Luke CC if she is not a random -Def Nature, I'm so glad I spent time detailing this cause it totally matters]). Nidoking has used Shadow Ball both times. First time I switch in Latios to take a cute 40%, second time iirc I stayed just to see how much damage I could do or because it was maybe the last poke and it still used Shadow Ball. I'm not surprised by this anymore. I was surprised by this, however:

    718 Yanmega Modest Quick Claw Bug Buzz Air Slash AncientPower Shadow Ball Sp. Atk/Sp. Def

    I actually managed to lose to this at like Battle 70 not just because this if one of about a dozen pokemon I actually have to pay attention against, but because it was so random. I was using my Lopunny team and used Thunderwave Turn 1. (I do this because if Yanmega is Tinted Lens, Bug Buzz is an easy 3HKO on my Lucario, which will not be able to do much to Yanmega since it has a shot at 2HKOing Lopunny with Bug Buzz [though it dropped my SpD the first two times I faced it so whatever] which means I won't get to TW on Turn 2, and obviously a Scarf Yanmega locked into BB sucks for Latios even though Latios is faster than Scarf Yanmega unless it has a +Spd nature.) It used Bug Buzz and took me to 86/170 but dropped SpD, not that it mattered cause I have to switch.

    Or so I thought...because when I switched to Luke to take the next BB Yanmega actually used Air Slash and took Luke to 61/145, which blew cause I'd have time for only one CM the next time I brought it in instead of 2-3. This really didn't make sense for me because while Air Slash is "weaker", it is also less accurate than Bug Buzz at 95% to 100%, and I don't recall ever having seen the AI opt for less accurate moves even if they go for weaker ones against the poke that is currently out. Being at 86/170 is key here, because this is the lowest HP I could be at that would indicate that the AI should know a 2HKO isn't guaranteed...unless it knows it dropped my SpD (7.5% with TW, neat). The above Forry using Toxic on Hera instead of DE is another indication of this, but I also recently played against:

    874 Lapras Modest Wacan Berry Rain Dance Dragon Pulse Thunder Hydro Pump HP/Sp. Atk

    with my 42/170 Lopunny still-Scarfed Lopunny, and it used DP as I expected it would which is why I went ahead and used Switcheroo to lock it into that and get Luke set up. Pump is obviously less accurate just as AS was in the above example, and both moves would kill just as in the above example, but it didn't use the less accurate move so...weird. Maybe the AI always uses the weakest move that will KO the poke it's facing regardless of accuracy? I guess that works out...from my examples Nidoking couldn't use Sludge Bomb against Luke and IB is more powerful than Shadow Ball, Yanmega couldn't use Shadow Ball against Lopunny and AP would still not have killed even with the SpD Drop, and Lapras wasn't using Thunder because it is more powerful than Dragon Pulse regardless of accuracy. I'm trying to think of an instance in which the above bolded rule was broken and I'm drawing a blank. I'll pay more attention to my 1 HP Lucario switchouts in the future but I kind of hope I don't lose again (I use Lopunny team after Battle 49)! This last example actually further proves my point:

    888 Arcanine Jolly Focus Band Flare Blitz Crunch Thunder Fang ExtremeSpeed Atk/Speed

    This led against my Luke team and had Intimidate, so it was the easiest switch in the world to Gyarados, which, while it can take even two -1 Thunder Fang, probably would prefer Latios to take the TF. It did...and was promptly Paralyzed. Specs DP OHKOs every time if Arcanine has taken 5% recoil damage or more...unless Focus Band Activates!! After the Crunch I was at like 20% and I don't remember what move it used to kill Latios...Extremespeed would follow the bolded rule if it can guarantee a KO at 20% but that 20% is an approximation so I'm not even going to bother calcing, this happened over two weeks ago. So we have a 100% Sash Luke vs a 1HP Arcanine. Arcanine's Speed is probably 147 to my Luke's 142 so it's probably faster than me, which means that if it uses ES it will be faster than my own ES and negate my Sash...but it doesn't use ES "even though" it could be slower, and this would follow the bolded rule because according to that it used Crunch, which has 20 power against Luke to Extremespeed's 40 power. So that checks out...finally I've faced this with my CM Luke:

    480 Arcanine Modest Lum Berry Flamethrower Dragon Pulse Will-O-Wisp ExtremeSpeed Sp. Atk/Speed

    and it has indeed used Extremespeed twice when I've been Subbed and in the red, but you can see that this is the weakest move it can use against Lucario. It may have killed—but iirc my Sub was at its full 25% HP (I very likely had a sub broken by a faster foe but preemptively used Sub for the Salac boost and killed it, then Arcanine came out). I don't remember when exact HP I was at, I was probably somewhere between 10-23% (these battles happened months ago), and for some more numbers, a 0 Atk EV Arcanine Extremespeed does 15.17-17.93% to a 145HP/90Def, 31 HP/Def IV, 0 HP/Def IV Lucario. Now I didn't have a 31 HP/Def IV Lucario then (I do now, fuck off Metagross), and I *think* the AI assumes you have max IVs because it doesn't know your actual stats, just its own (at least I hope not), but there's a 50% chance (25% cause I faced Arcanine twice in this scenario) that the Arcanine I faced was the one with Crunch, which does half of what ES does at 7.59-8.97%, and like I said I don't think I was under 10% so even if it were the ES Arcanine with Crunch I think it would know that Crunch wouldn't have killed so yeah. I can't think of an instance in which the AI always uses the weakest move that will KO the poke it's facing regardless of accuracy is not true.
  13. Lee

    Lee @ Thick Club
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    I have an instance that -sorta- breaks that rule, but it's open to interpretation. I'll throw it out here anyway if only because I feel inclined to reply to that wall of words.

    I was using the team I wrote up on Page 24 and came up against:

    435 Machamp Adamant Focus Sash Counter Revenge Payback Earthquake HP/Atk

    Charizard was behind a Sub against the Memento'd Machamp who woke up as I Drummed and broke the Sub with a critical hit Revenge. A little sigh comes out, but it wasn't too big of a concern. 'Zard is now sat at 25% health and throws out a Fire Punch. Machamp's Sash does it's thing and he downs Charizard with Payback.

    In this scenario, Payback was in fact Machamp's strongest option. My only explanation for this, in relation to your proposal, is that the AI looks at the initial BP of the move, perhaps neglecting to look into secondary effects such as Payback's power doubling. Revenge works on a different priority counter to Payback so the AI must be viewing them differently. Assuming I hit him, STAB Revenge would have had 90BP and 45BP if I didn't; both less than the 100BP Payback that Machamp ultimatley used.

    I guess that raises a few question marks with how the AI deals with variable damage moves in such situations. ?_?
  14. Jumpman16

    Jumpman16 np: Michael Jackson - "Mon in the Mirror" (DW mix)
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    Yeah, in that case, even if the AI does not assume that it is slower than you even if it is obvious that it is (your Charizard went first the turn before). If, for whatever reason, Charizard were indeed slower than 0 Spd EVs Machamp, Payback would have been the correct option since Revenge would have done 90BP to Payback's 50BP thanks to Revenge's negative priority. This is assuming, though, that the AI also knows you selected an attacking move, in addition to it not assuming you are faster, so that's kind of a tall order.

    Oh wait...there's an easier explanation (lol i could have just deleted all the above text but I don't want to delete my effort and it also shows my thought process so whatever). I have reason to believe the AI won't use negative priority moves like Avalanche, Revenge and even Counter at low/1 HP because they know they will likely die if so. This logic applies to stuff like the low HP (Focus Band) Flare Blitz Arcanine above too. I think that's enough to explain why the AI used Payback there.
  15. SwinubToupée

    SwinubToupée

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    It's fun to dissect the AI. I've also suspected that it has some sort of minimal attack policy. It would be a smart addition to the program. The AI isn't sophisticated enough to predict a switch but if it uses the least powerful attack that can achieve a KO it can create the illusion of cleverness. The AI wins if its target stays in, surprises the player if the player switches, and in either case conserves the PP of what is probably its primary attack. It's a sound decision in most scenarios and it wouldn't take much effort to program.

    I wish I could remember examples as detailed as the others that have been posted! One of my early BT attempts involved switching a wounded Milotic out of an "obvious" Thunderbolt only to have Garchomp eat an Ice Beam, but that was a year ago and it's hard to remember the details. At any rate, cheers for an interesting discussion of the computer's pseudo-wiliness!
  16. FastHippo

    FastHippo

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    I felt that way, too. Until the AI used Hydro Pump against my 1 hp Hippo a few times. I don't remember which Pokemon they were. It is possible that, that was their weakest move, though I'm pretty sure it wasn't. I'll pay closer attention next time. Actually, it works out pretty well. Sometimes, I can go first and use Slack Off. I survive, they go to sleep.

    Also, I've replaced SR with Substitute. My Hippo is even more formidable, now. I'm not pleased with Lapras. It's fun, I haven't loss, but I've had 2 or 3 close calls. Lucario is great, I just wanted something that can kill fliers, grass types and has a fire move, that also resists grass/ice or water/ice and is neutral to the other,that can also beat Gyarados 3 and 4. I found something close, I'll see how it goes.
  17. makiri

    makiri My vast and supreme will shall be done!
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    Since talking with Jumpman at Smocon, I've become really interested in the BT and I'm currently planning some teams to take on the Single and Double Battle Towers. My team ideas are pretty up in the air right now, but I have a few ideas I keyed in on, its just filling in the blanks with some good support. Look for some updates as I start to take the BT a bit more seriously now.
  18. shipship

    shipship

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    I think the AI has some "randomness" built in.

    I've seen them use attacks like Stone Edge or Focus Blast when I was on low health, when they had a 100% accuracy move that would have KO'd. In those cases it was likely their weakest attack (they had a stronger move when factoring STAB).

    But I've also seen a Starmie use Hydro Pump on me when I was in red, when it was definitely not their weakest attack.

    I've also seen the AI use not-very effective attacks on me to try and finish me off, only to under-predict the damage and leave me with like 2 HP.
  19. garo

    garo

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    congrats on your remarkable record!!! is good to see that all the top ten is now above 200 victories, you did a great work proving again the overpowered sandstorm-garchomp combo. is a shame that the insane hax finishes again a great streak, the AI can´t play competitive and can´t do predictions, so many players would think that the BT is a piece of cake, but any lack in intelligence is overshadowed with insane hax lolol.
  20. shipship

    shipship

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    Thanks.

    The team concept was very simple. Two bulky sweepers who can both run through entire teams after minimal set-up, and both benefit from sandstorm.

    Bronzong was just as imporant as the other two, as he was my all-around sponge as well as "special sweeper." Many matches were won by sending in Bronzong on something that couldn't hurt it, and proceeding to CM 6 times, Resting off any damage/status along the way. I was surprised by how sturdy it is with max/max physical defense. In one of the matches, my Tyranitar faced off vs an opposing Infernape. Obviously I had to switch as T-Tar gets destroyed by Close Combat. I went to Bronzong to absorb the blow. Surprisigly, he survived a Close Combat AND a Flare Blitz, and OHKO'd the Ape with Psychic after his recoil and defense drop.
  21. Sparko

    Sparko

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    thanks for the help ^^
  22. 1059860

    1059860

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    I just got Tyranitar Horn Drilled by Rhyperior. Immediately after, my Garchomp in Sandstorm got Horn Drilled by the same Rhyperior. -_-
  23. Peterko

    Peterko Never give up!
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    OHKO moves are not affected by accuracy/evasion modifiers like sand veil, brightpowder etc.

    well, the scarf pinsir hit 3/3 guillotines in my last double battle but I still only lost 1-0 with the last one standing with 1%

    anyway, you have to be mentally prepared for that kind of crap before you try to achieve a higher streak in the tower :/

    wow zerowing playing tower now, let´s see how he can handle "the hax"
  24. Syberia

    Syberia [custom user title]
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    I usually just run Skarm/Bliss/Cress in the Battle Tower. Seems to work fairly well.

    Skarmory @Shell Bell
    Impish, Don't remember the EVs, but max HP, close to max Def, and a few Atk
    Steel Wing
    Drill Peck
    Swords Dance
    Roost

    Blissey @Leftovers
    Calm, max Def, split between HP and Sp. Def
    Seismic Toss
    Flamethrower
    Thunder Wave
    Softboiled

    Cresselia @Wise Glasses
    Bold, max Def, split between Sp. Atk and HP
    Psychic
    Ice Beam
    Charge Beam
    Moonlight

    I could use a little help with the items, I can't decide if Skarm, Bliss, or Cress wants the Leftovers more (right now I have it on Bliss, which probably is not the best choice), and what to put on the other two. I would almost use a Quick Claw on Cresselia, but that's quite gay.
  25. shipship

    shipship

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    Syberia, I think a Skarm/Bliss/Cress team can work ok, but most battles will take a LONG time, so you might get bored from all the stalling.

    Make sure your Skarmory has Sturdy instead of Keen Eye or else OHKO will rape you really badly. Even so, you might have problems against Sheer Cold Walrein or Sheer Cold Lapras.

    I've used a Skarmory in the BT before, but I was using the Stealth Rock + Whirlwind combo, as the BT trainers have no problem using SR-weak pokemon! Watching a Moltres take 50% damage is just hilarious.

    Softboiled on Blissey is a no-brainer, but you have a lot of freedom with the other moves. I personally found Toxic more useful than T-Wave. Counter is also a great option to immediately get rid of physical threats.

    I prefer Calm Mind over Charge Beam on Cress. Mostly you'll just be using Charge Beam for a boost rather than for hurting things so why not just boost both attack and defense?

    Love your youtube vids btw!
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