DP Empoleon

cim

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Remember, since SD Empoleon works well enough, it will surprise an opponent who switches into a Special Wall.
Whoa, we never woulda figured that out! Thanks! Not counting, you know, the direct mention of Blissey in the analysis and the whole "surprise value" thing that's been stressed the whole time.

I've been trying to think of other general / SD Empoleon counters and Hariyama comes to mind as he can survive a Drill Peck and pummel Empoleon with Cross Chop. Triple Kick Hitmontop rapes the Petaya set, special mention for him?
 
@Bologo
I haven't voiced anything on Empoleon's SD set despite having used it. I'm also a fan of the old Druidcruel which works very similarly. But it just feels like Empoleon running EQ is treading into Kabutops territory but slower and weaker.

SD Empoleon attracts a Gyarados switch in like crazy since you're at its absolute mercy. SD set will only offer a 30% damage Drill Peck after Swords Dance. Same case again for Salamence, Dragonite etc. (Though D-nite less so) Swampert situation is irrelevant since most Empoleon on any good day wrecks it with Surf or Grass Knot. Vaporean honestly isn't a threat when Drill Peck is still doing sufficient damage.

I find Earthquake is abit of a filler, it honestly only covers a total of 3 Pokemon, Empoleon, Magnezone and Lanturn. Flying/Water has pretty good coverage anyway making Drill Peck the reason to use SD.

I actually played around and found Waterfall comes in far more handy for power issues and fairs better against Skarm, Dusknoir and Cress. A simple substitute can help get a extra Swords Dance since it blocks many low offense sponge/walls. Or a more interesting way is lay SR out in advance and stick a Yawn on Empoleon, its a good way of encouraging switches and weakens the two actual threats. If you pull off the sleep than more power to your SD.
 
@ Chris is Me: Ice Beam is an option if packing surf. It's coverage is actually better. It's OHKOing Celebi with some spikes / SR support, and the obvious Salamence / Dragonite, as they resist your Surf as well. Grass Knot helps down the other waters, its a matter of what your team needs.
 
I'd definetly add a SubDance/YawnDance Empoleon set. I used it sometime back, and it's awesome. Yawn can force switches in and out, letting you get in free SDs. Substitute can also work to force switches, and get in 2 SDs. One before the Sub, and one while they're breaking it. MixedWall Empoleon is also great. This way, you can come in on Tyranitar, and beat it up. Earthquake is mostly a filler, I'd much rather have it moved to the other options, and with Yawn / Sub there.

Edit: RestTalk should definetly be mentioned too, it grants Empoleon more survivability.
 

cim

happiness is such hard work
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I'd definetly add a SubDance/YawnDance Empoleon set. I used it sometime back, and it's awesome. Yawn can force switches in and out, letting you get in free SDs. Substitute can also work to force switches, and get in 2 SDs. One before the Sub, and one while they're breaking it.
Eh, I'm not too keen on it. Empoleon as SDer is really sketchy already with his crap Attack and Speed. He won't be fast enough or bulky enough to SD, then Sub, then pretend the Sub is still there and SD again. Plus Water-Flying isn't the best coverage in the world... oh wait, it actually sounds like a better Water-Normal.

MixedWall Empoleon is also great. This way, you can come in on Tyranitar, and beat it up. Earthquake is mostly a filler, I'd much rather have it moved to the other options, and with Yawn / Sub there.
Uh, the only mixed walling Empoleon should be doing is for the occasional Earthquakeless Gyarados, and 252 HP is perfectly viable for that. A Bulky Water set weak to Earthquake and Fighting is definitely not a smart idea. Empoleon is not a T-tar counter; Earthquake owns him and probably even a few Stone Edges. Go use Thick Fat Hariyama like a big boy.

Edit: RestTalk should definetly be mentioned too, it grants Empoleon more survivability.
It's in Other Options. Empoleon has 3 big, gigantic weaknesses, so it's not his best choice as he's not going to be staying in the match for more than a few turns. Plus he can absorb status from some (Grassers), but not all (Gengar, Gallade).


So, uh, any objections to SCMSing the current version?
 
Here is a recent log of agility empoleon in action. Granted my opponent will be anonymous, and I'm guessing he was unaware of its power, making some fatal mistakes that I often see people make when fighting this thing. Anyway, I was down 5-1 and empoleon ran through all 5 pokemon.

Erik-Testing switched in Empoleon (lvl 100 Empoleon ?).
Empoleon was hurt by Spikes!
Empoleon lost 25% of its health.
Empoleon used Substitute.
Empoleon lost 25% of its health.
Empoleon made a substitute!
Blissey used Softboiled.
Blissey restored 50% of its health.
Blissey's leftovers restored its health a little!
Blissey restored 6% of its health.
---
Empoleon used Agility.
Empoleon's speed was sharply raised.
Blissey used Flamethrower.
The substitute took damage for Empoleon!
Blissey's leftovers restored its health a little!
Blissey restored 1% of its health.
---
Empoleon used Surf.
Blissey lost 18% of its health.
Blissey used Flamethrower.
The substitute took damage for Empoleon!
Empoleon's substitute faded!
Blissey's leftovers restored its health a little!
Blissey restored 6% of its health.
---
Empoleon used Substitute.
Empoleon lost 25% of its health.
Empoleon made a substitute!
Blissey used Flamethrower.
The substitute took damage for Empoleon!
Empoleon's Petaya Berry raised its special attack! (Torrent Activates)
Blissey's leftovers restored its health a little!
Blissey restored 6% of its health.
---
Empoleon used Surf.
Blissey lost 41% of its health.
Blissey used Flamethrower.
The substitute took damage for Empoleon!
Empoleon's substitute faded!
Blissey's leftovers restored its health a little!
Blissey restored 6% of its health.
---
Empoleon used Surf.
Blissey lost 42% of its health.
Blissey used Flamethrower.
Empoleon lost 20% of its health. (5% health left!)
Blissey's leftovers restored its health a little!
Blissey restored 6% of its health.
---
--- switched in Salamence (lvl 100 Salamence ?).
Salamence's intimidate cut Empoleon's attack!
Empoleon used Surf.
It's not very effective...
Salamence lost 66% of its health.
Salamence's leftovers restored its health a little!
Salamence restored 6% of its health.
---
--- switched in Metagross (lvl 100 Metagross).
Metagross was hurt by Spikes!
Metagross lost 19% of its health.
Empoleon used Surf.
Metagross lost 50% of its health.
--- Metagross fainted.
---
---switched in Salamence (lvl 100 Salamence ?).
Salamence's intimidate cut Empoleon's attack!
Empoleon used Surf.
It's not very effective...
Salamence lost 40% of its health.
--- Salamence fainted.
---
-- switched in Gliscor (lvl 100 Gliscor ?).
Empoleon used Surf.
It's super effective!
Gliscor lost 40% of its health.
--- Gliscor fainted.
---
--- switched in Skarmory (lvl 100 Skarmory ?).
Empoleon used Surf.
Skarmory lost 100% of its health.
--- Skarmory fainted.
---
---switched in Blissey (lvl 100 Blissey ?).
Blissey was hurt by Spikes!
Blissey lost 19% of its health.
Empoleon used Surf.
A critical hit!
Blissey lost 5% of its health.
--- Blissey fainted.
Erik-Testing wins!
Erik-Testing: gg
 

cim

happiness is such hard work
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He might have thought Salamence could take two Surfs and thus would kill with Earthquake if the Sub is down. By the way, Empoleon is the best argument I can think of right now for Seismic Toss Blissey.

Anyone crazy enough to try Rain Dance in slot 4 by the way? XD

Can someone awesome with a badge, like... chaos? SCMS this now? I don't think there's any objections to the current revision as of yet.
 
Chaos, at that point, with torrent activated and the Sub up, him softboiling was irrelevant, as he needed to break the sub and hit me twice with flamethrower to finish me. After breaking the sub, even him softboiling he would have to find some way to attack me twice to win, which was a battle he really could not win without an enormous amount of softboiling, praying for no crits.
 

chaos

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Owner
I don't do analysis stuff, sorry. Could someone with experience in D/P look over this and maybe commit changes if necessary?
 

maddog

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Trick Room Article

Introduction:

Trick Room is a stragety that is not used too frequently, but it can be potent if used correctly. Because Trick Room changes the order that Pokemon would normally move in, slow but powerful attackers have their oppinunity to wreck serious havoc until Trick Room finally runs out. With adequate support, a Trick Room team can work extremely well in a metagame full of faster and more fragile sweepers. This guide will analysis the move and show you how to use it best, from the best sweepers to great supporters; or can give you insight into how to beat this little used but deadly Trick Room.


"Speed Tiers"

In Trick Room, the goal is to have the slowest Speed possible. This is usually achieved by using a 0 Speed IV, a negative Speed nature, and 0 EVs in Speed. In order to check what threats you outspeed in Trick Room conditions, use the Overused Speed Tiers and this table below. Find the base speed of the Pokemon you want to use in Trick Room, and use that Speed in the normal Speed Tiers chart. All the Pokemon above are Pokemon you will outspeed in Trick Room, and all the ones below are things that will still outspeed you. Use this table for team building, and also for reference.

Base 100: 184
Base 95: 175
Base 90: 166
Base 85: 157
Base 80: 148
Base 77: 143
Base 75: 139
Base 71: 132
Base 70: 130
Base 65: 121
Base 61: 114
Base 60: 112
Base 58: 108
Base 55: 103
Base 50: 94
Base 45: 85
Base 40: 76
Base 35: 67
Base 33: 63
Base 30: 58
 
Eh, I may as well, it never hurts to have another person look at stuff.

[SET]
Name: Special Tank
move 1: Surf
move 2: Ice Beam
move 3: Grass Knot / Stealth Rock
move 4: Roar / Yawn
item: Leftovers
nature: Calm / Modest
evs: 252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>Empoleon's a cool Special Wall:
Firstly, the set says Special Tank, so it really shouldn't be stated as a tank at one point and a wall at another. Secondly, the adjective cool doesn't really have any definite meaning from a competitive standpoint - replacing it with something like unique, viable, or useful would fit much better.


He's got 12 resistances and immunities and Specs Salamence can only manage 43% with Fire Blast (if Calm, 47% if Modest).
Super nitpicky but you should probably add some mention of Empoleon to the parenthetical sentence, it sounds like it could be referring to Salamence. An experienced player would of course know that Specmence would never be running Calm, but it's good for the analysis pages to be as clear as possible.

His Special offense also makes him stand out. Ice Beam will beat said Salamence, while Grass Knot takes advantage of Empoleon's ability to counter Water-types such as Starmie and Milotic. As for support moves, Empoleon gets Stealth Rock, which can be used on its own or with Roar/Yawn.</p>
The term counter should be used in only a definite sense - given that Starmie frequently carries Thunderbolt, which will probably 3HKO this Empoleon, it's not a true counter. Replacing counter with "defeat" would work.

<p>Modest is an option on this set for a few reasons. First, Empoleon's niche is that of a Special Wall with actual special offense, so boosting SAtk a bit helps make him more unique. More importantly, it guarantees the 2HKO on Starmie with Grass Knot, making him a pretty neat Starmie counter as long as he's weary of Choice Specs Thunderbolt.</p>
Special should be capitalized, while Special Attack should be written out. Also, it should be "wary", not weary. Same deal with countering Starmie, replacing counter with switch-in would work fine here.

[SET]
Name: Agility Petaya Torrent Kamikaze Sweeper Empoleon!
move 1: Agility
move 2: Hydro Pump / Surf
move 3: Grass Knot / Ice Beam
move 4: Substitute
item: Life Orb
nature: Modest
evs: 44 HP / 248 SpA / 216 Spe
The set name is a bit long, just something like Agility Torrent Sweeper would be better.

<p>Shaymin, eat your heart out: Once this thing sets up, it's ready to slaughter anything in its path, including resists. Empoleon resists nearly every priority move, has kickass Special Attack (Only Omastar, Gorebyss, and Clamperl beat it),
It's pretty obvious after reading it, but it should be noted that the Pokemon in parentheses are the only Water types that have higher special attack, not the only Pokemon, because that's obviously incorrect!

and Torrent to sweep with. Agility fixes his Speed, getting him above Scarf Base 90s like PorygonZ and Lucario.
Neutral nature, or Timid/Adamant included?

<p>Surf is an option on this set, but Hydro Pump is generally preferred. Why? Because Hydro Pump is much stronger. Boosted Hydro Pump will always OHKO Bulky Garchomp (haha)
The (haha) doesn't serve any real purpose, it should probably be removed.

80 percent is barely adequate, so Surf's 100% accuracy may be more appealing to you.
You say "80 percent" and then "100%" in the same sentence, "percent" should be changed to % in order to be consistent.

If you're using Surf, you might prefer Ice Beam for Salamence and Grass types, depending on your team.</p>
Hyphen between Grass and types.

Specs set said:
<p>With his above average defenses and massive resistances,
Err, resistances aren't exactly numerically quantifiable (well, they are technically, but only in terms of 25%/50%), so "massive list of resistances" would make more sense here.

[SET]
Name: Swords Dance + Priority
move 1: Swords Dance
move 2: Aqua Jet
move 3: Drill Peck
move 4: Earthquake / Avalanche
item: Leftovers / Life Orb
nature: Adamant
evs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>Kinda reminds you of Normal Arceus, huh? Except he trades extreme strength (and Uber-ness)
Uber-ness should be replaced with "Uber status"

<p>This set takes down Empoleon's big counters (Blissey, Ludicolo, Lanturn, Regice) as well as other threats (Dugtrio, Magnezone) very easily. Blissey is KOed quite easily by a +4 SDed Empoleon, and Paralysis
Paralysis shouldn't be capitalized.

Magnezone with Earthquake, Dugtrio with Aqua Jet, and Regice just can't do enough damage in time.</p>
I haven't actually used this set, but I notice that it's Speed investment of 4 isn't even enough to beat Magnezone with no speed investment at all (base 70), so shouldn't some speed be invested for that purpose?

<p>Leftovers is the best item choice here; Empoleon is designed to play like Normal Arceus here and use its massive resistances to take hits.</p>
"massive resistances" again

[OTHER OPTIONS]
Other Options, Opinion, etc are not in all caps, they're capitalized normally.

Wet rock Rain Dancer on your team, it could also help the Petaya set for even more massive damage.</p>
R in Rock should be capitalized.

speed up to max and Modest and still maintain its efficacy; Timid makes it weaker in exchange for outrunning Metagross, Adamant Tyranitar, and a few Heatran. Swords Dance should max out HP and Attack; this lets him take hits and do actual damage to things.</p>
Speed should be capitalized. Also, did you mean efficiency?


[COUNTERS]
<p>For every set, Lanturn is an excellent counter, barely being scratched by Grass Knot. Watch for Hidden Power Ground on the Specs set or Earthquake on the Swords Dance set.</p>
Shouldn't it be "For nearly every set"? You just stated that Lanturn may not be a good counter to the SD set.


<p>The Agility set is harder to shut down. A Calm Blissey or Lanturn stops it cold, as do things with Taunt or stuff faster than him. After the last Substitute is broken, stuff like Lucario, Breloom, and Hitmontop can Mach Punch him.
Lucario doesn't learn Mach Punch, just Bullet Punch and Extremespeed.

Tentacruel gives him problems too, as does some Vaporeon and Lapras.</p>
Do, not does.
 
Still advocating for a mod's decision on Surf vs. Hydro Pump for the sweeper set... I really don't think Surf should be the "other option"
 

maddog

is a master debater
is a Contributor Alumnus
So I went ahead and just copy/ pasted what Chris had and edited the hell out of it, and with my rewrite and Fishin's edits (thanks for that). Although Fishin, Starmie with 132 SpAtk EVs (for the spinner set) only does 33.65% - 39.52% if Empoleon is Modest, so Empoleon can work as at least move in on Starmie, although it wont be able to multiple times. I'm going to continue editing some stuff in tonight and tomorrow and I'll post it to the SCMS then. Feel free to make any suggestions.

[SET]
Name: Special Tank
move 1: Surf
move 2: Ice Beam
move 3: Grass Knot / Stealth Rock
move 4: Roar / Yawn
item: Leftovers
nature: Calm / Modest
evs: 252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>Empoleon's a viable Special Tank, especially when realize you are working with 11 resistances and 1 immunity. Choice Specs Salamence can only manage 43% with Fire Blast if Empoleon is using a Calm nature, whereas the same Fire Blast will do 47% if Empoleon is Modest. His high Special Attack also makes him stand out. Salamence gets destroyed by Ice Beam, while Grass Knot takes advantage of Empoleon's ability to counter Water-types such as Milotic and Vaporeon, and also allows him to scare away Starmie. As for support moves, Empoleon gets Stealth Rock, which can be used on its own or with Roar/Yawn.</p>

<p>This moveset can be played with a bit. Yawn and Protect can work if you predict something staying in, while Stealth Rock and Roar make Empoleon a psuedo-Skarmory. Empoleon could run Sleep Talk to absorb sleep from the likes of Milotic, Bronzong and Roserade.</p>

<p>Modest is an option on this set for a few reasons. First, Empoleon's niche is that of a Special tank with great Special Attack, so a boosting nature would help him further that goal. More importantly, it guarantees the 2HKO on Starmie with Grass Knot, making him a pretty neat switch-in to Starmie as long as he's wary of Thunderbolt. The standard spinner Starmie will do 33.65 - 39.52% with Thunderbolt to Empoleon (if it is Modest), while a Choice Specs Thunderbolt is an easy 2HKO.</p>


[SET]
Name: Agility Torrent Sweeper
move 1: Agility
move 2: Surf / Hydro Pump
move 3: Ice Beam / Grass Knot
move 4: Substitute
item: Petaya Berry
nature: Modest
evs: 44 HP / 248 SpA / 216 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>Shaymin, eat your heart out. Once this thing sets up, it's ready to slaughter anything in its path. Empoleon resists nearly every priority move, has kickass Special Attack (in terms of other waters, only Omastar, Gorebyss, and Clamperl beat it), and Torrent to sweep with. Agility fixes his Speed, getting him above Scarfed neutral-natured Base 90s like PorygonZ and Lucario. From there, he Subs 3 times to activate Torrent and Petaya Berry and proceed to sweep.</p>

<p>Boosted Hydro Pump will always OHKO Bulky Garchomp, can 2HKO Bold Blissey (48-57%), OHKO Bronzong, and OHKO Dusknoir and Salamence while switching into Stealth Rock (though Empoleon's always faster than both after a boost anyway). Boosted Hydro Pump will out-damage unboosted Ice Beam on Grass types, making Ice Beam entirely unnecessary and Grass Knot the ideal choice. However, since Empoleon will sweeping later in the game, Surf is a better option as everything should be weakened anyway, and you won't want your late game sweeper missing. Surf still can do 40% to Blissey (meaning Empoleon will win if Blissey lacks Seismic Toss or Thunderbolt) and the 2HKOs on the above examples should be sufficient. One should use Ice Beam with Surf, and Grass Knot with Hydro Pump, but it really depends on what your team can cover.</p>

[SET]
Name: Choice Specs
move 1: Hydro Pump / Surf
move 2: Ice Beam
move 3: Grass Knot
move 4: Sleep Talk / Hidden Power [Ground]
item: Choice Specs
nature: Modest
evs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>With his above average defenses and massive amounts resistances, Empoleon is easy to switch in, making him a natural candidate for Choice Specs. Hydro Pump scores a 1HKO on Magnezone, and you can afford to miss once in a while to do extra damage. Surf is still an option for better accuracy. Ice Beam and Grass Knot are standard fare, taking out Grass and Water type switch-ins. With Choice Specs, Grass Knot also has the added benefit of always 2HKOing Gyarados.</p>

<p>The fourth move is a filler because Empoleon has a small Special movepool. Sleep Talk allows you to absorb sleep, but you can only use it once before switching out thanks to Choice Specs. Hidden Power Ground 1HKOs Magnezone and Lanturn, and hits enemy Empoleon. Hydro Pump will outdamage Hidden Power Ground in all other cases though.</p>

[SET]
Name: Swords Dance + Priority
move 1: Swords Dance
move 2: Aqua Jet
move 3: Drill Peck
move 4: Earthquake / Avalanche
item: Leftovers / Life Orb
nature: Adamant
evs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>Kinda reminds you of Normal Arceus, huh? Empoleon, however, trades extreme strength (and Uber status) for massive surprise value. The idea here is to Swords Dance, then use the surprise value and overall bulkiness of Empoleon to get in another Swords Dance if possible. Then, you may proceed to kill things with STAB Aqua Jet off 894 attack (assuming you get two boosts). Though the idea may seem somewhat novel, it is actually a very viable option.</p>

<p>This set takes down Empoleon's big counters as well as other threats very easily. Blissey is KOed quite easily by a Empoleon that has Swords Danced twice. Unlike most other sweepers, paralysis isn't a bad thing for this Empoleon because Aqua Jet allows it to move first anyway, and it also protects you from other status. Ludicolo gets annihilated by Drill Peck, Lanturn and Magnezone with Earthquake, Dugtrio with Aqua Jet, and Regice just can't do enough damage in time to stop his sweep. Magnezone often invests speed to beat Skarmory, so it might be faster than Empoleon. Either faint it before pulling this off or predict its switch in and use Earthquake.</p>

<p>Drill Peck is the primary option here for hitting Heracross and Breloom on the switch. If you're scared of Salamence, Avalanche should beat it, and Empoleon won't mind the negative priority with its low speed anyway. Water/Flying has excellent coverage, so Avalanche should go over Earthquake, if you decide to use it. 4 Speed EVs to outrun Impish Swampert lets you beat him one-on-one with Earthquake, 3HKOing with no boost at all.</p>

<p>Leftovers is the best item choice here; Empoleon is designed to play like Normal Arceus here and use its massive number of resistances to take hits.</p>

[SET]
Name: Sleep Talker
move 1: Surf / Grass Knot
move 2: Ice Beam
move 3: Rest
move 4: Sleep Talk
item: Leftovers / Shed Shell
nature: Modest
evs: 252 HP/ 252 SpD/ 6 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>Empoleon lack of a real recovery move is disappointing, but is remedied somewhat with the Rest/ Sleep Talk combination. This Empoleon makes a fine switch in to absorb sleep from the likes of Milotic, Yammaga, and Roserade. A lack of STAB Surf might seem like a bad idea from an offensive standpoint, but Grass Knot helps Empoleon take on threats such as Starmie and Swampert, and Ice/ Grass is a good attacking type in general. It should be mentioned that Grass Knot and Ice Beam will leave you utterly walled by Steels, so pick your poison carefully.</p>

<p>Empoleon can switch into many special threats pretty easily, but it will often switch if it comes up against a strong physical attacker with a Fighting move or Earthquake. As such, Empoleon might not have alot of time to stall with Rest and Sleep Talk. It would be best used to absorb sleep early game, and come back out later when those afformentioned threats are dead or suffiently weakened.</p>

<p>Because Rest is assisting in recovery, Shed Shell may be a good choice for this set so Empoleon can escape the clutches of Magnezone and Dugtrio.</p>

[Other Options]
<p>Empoleon could use Choice Band, but the potential surprise value isn't made up for with Empoleon's crappy Attack stat. </p>

<p>On the Special Wall, Hydro Pump and Subsitute with a Modest nature allow Empoleon able to counter any virturally every non-Blissey switch in; Magnezone is 2HKO'd while he won't OHKO your Sub-less Empoleon, and Electivire is nearly always OHKO'd after Torrent. Aqua Ring can work but Empoleon switches in and out a lot so it's really not worth the trouble. HP Electric is if you really fear Gyarados so much that you must OHKO him.</p>

<p>Empoleon does have a decent physical movepool that could be implemented by the Swords Dancer. Rock Slide could be used to fend of Gyarados, but if Gyarados is carrying Earthquake, you might be in trouble. Return is Empoleon's best option against other waters, and Water/ Normal is only resisted by other Empoleon and Shedinja. However, Empoleon's attack stat is so low that will often need to rely on Super Effective attacks in order to do serious damage.</p>

<p>Rain Dance support is always good for Empoleon; on the Special Tank he could run the move as he does a decent job of keeping Hippowdon away. If you have a Wet Rock Rain Dancer on your team, it could also help the Agility set do even more damage. Speaking of the Agility set, Brine can be a useful option as you can hit things that are under 50% health with a 130 base STAB attack.</p>

[EVs]
<p>Maxing HP and Special Defense is obvious on the walling sets. 4 Speed EVs allows you to beat minimum speed Impish Swampert. The Agility set has the option of running Timid and 216 Speed EVs to outrun Adamant Choice Scarf Garchomp, but then it won't get the kills needed with Modest. If you do choose to do that, put the remaining EVs in HP so it can take more hits. 44 HP makes HP divisible by 4; be sure to adjust if you don't have a 31 HP IV on Wi-Fi. Choice Specs can run any Speed up to max and Modest and still maintain its efficiency; Timid nature with 184 Speed EVs puts Empoleon at 222 speed to outpace Adamant Tyranitar. Swords Dance should max out HP and Attack; this lets him take hits and do actual damage to things. With Aqua Jet and possibly Avalanche on the set, Speed EVs aren't required outside of the 4 EVs needed to beat Swampert.</p>

[OPINION]
<p>Empoleon is badass, an off-the-beaten-path Pokémon who can both wall and sweep your opponent. As a Special tank, it can shine as a counter to most Water-types (including non-EQ Gyarados) and dish out stronger hits than Blissey while absorbing attacks with his 11 resists and 1 immunity. As a sweeper, he's really something most teams don't expect and he can reach insanely powerful levels with Torrent and Petaya boosting his excellent Water STAB. </p>

<p>The thing that really holds him back from being a complete powerhouse is the lack of real recovery and 3 common weaknesses to Fighting, Ground, and Electric. If you can get the past these limitations (hint: pair with Gliscor!), he's a fine choice for a lot of teams.</p>

[COUNTERS]
<p>For every set, Lanturn is an excellent counter, barely being scratched by Grass Knot. Watch for Hidden Power Ground on the Specs set or Earthquake on the Swords Dance set though.</p>

<p>Countering the wall set isn't very difficult. Electivire can switch in to anything on the wall set and immediately threaten a KO with Thunderpunch. Blissey, Cresselia, Snorlax, and Regice all wall Empoleon. Hitmontop spins away Stealth Rock while threatening a KO with Mach Punch or Hi Jump Kick.</p>

<p>The Agility set is harder to shut down. A Calm Blissey or Lanturn stops it cold, as do things with Taunt or stuff faster than him. After the last Substitute is broken, Breloom and Hitmontop can Mach Punch him, and Lucario can use Vacuum Wave. Hitmontop's high Special Defense can help, to a degree, and he also gets special mention for Triple Kick. Tentacruel gives him problems too, as do some Vaporeon and Lapras. Ludicolo can handle everything outside of Drill Peck on the Swords Dancer.</p>

<p>Strangely, not many counters are out there that can switch into both the Swords Dance set and the SubPetaya set; Cresselia and Thunderbolt Blissey are your only real shots. If you know it's a Swords Dancer, Swampert, Tangrowth and Earthquake Bronzong are decent counters.</p>

<p>Although neither Magnezone nor Dugtrio can switch in directly, they can trap and kill Empoleon with their STAB moves.</p>
 

maddog

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I'm pretty satisfied with this, anything I need to change before I put it on the SCMS?
 

cim

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Just one or two. Thanks for the help!
Scarfed Neutral-Natured Base 90s like PorygonZ
I think it should be "neutral-natured".
The idea here is to Swords Dance, use the surprise value and overall bulkiness of Empoleon to get in another Swords Dance if possible.
Should probably be "then use the surprise..." or a semicolon. It's an independent clause as you is the understood subject.

Earthquake Bronzong does pretty well against the Swords Dancer as his Earthquake will usually 2HKO.

Other than that, it's solid.
 

cim

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I mentioned it in Other Options, but it basically fails for the same reason Aqua Ring does; he switches out way too much and doesn't stall out things with his many weaks. He's more of a counter than a wall.

No, seriously, Rest and Sleep Talk doesn't work well. Grass/Ice misses out on most every Steel type in the game plus leaves nothing for Magnezone. Maybe Sleep Talk alone is an option, but not Rest and Sleep Talk as he doesn't have time to run it usually. Really, it's not good. Other option or maybe the very last set in the analysis.

Shed Shell's a bit overspecific as Magnezone is threatened by every Empoleon set that's not the Restalk set.
 

maddog

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Umm, yeah... You would need to change the EVs so that its final HP is still divisible by 4. So if your piplup has 20 HP IVs, it would need 0 EVs in order for the total to be divisible by 4. So the final spread would be 252 SpAtk/ 44 SpD/ 216 Spd. But really, it really wasn't that hard to figure out; I even mentioned that in my writeup:

44 HP makes HP divisible by 4; be sure to adjust if you don't have a 31 HP IV on Wi-Fi.
On another note, I'll go ahead and add what you said about the Rest talk set Chris, but I still think it *could* work (and also just to be complete), so I'll just move it down alot. I'm currently going over the original analysis and putting all the information that I think is still useful into this writeup, and I'll be able to put it to the SCMS tomorrow or so. Please tell me if something needs to be edited before I put it up!
 
Brine can be a great option late game when stuff is at 50% or less because it hits with a 130 BP stab move that does around 46% min to standard blissey but otherwise surf or hydro pump sould be used

a torrent boosted Brine does a min damage of around 54% to the bog standard Bliss if your wondering about putting it on the torrent abuser set
 
Ok.. I have a Emp. with brine & i like it much better than surf or h. pump.. Yes it is situational but who gives a shit, it works well. My emp. other moves are grass knot, flash cannon & ice beam.. 31 ivs in hp, def, sp. atk & speed.. didn't even bother ev'n the speed *use it for a trick room team while holding iron ball* i stuck w` hp & sp. atk & its pretty good that way.
 

maddog

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I went ahead and mentioned Brine, if only for the sake of being complete. I'm putting the version I have right now to the SCMS.
 

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