DP Empoleon

[Syberia]

http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/empoleon

[SET]
name: Agility Sweeper, Three Attacks
move 1: Surf / Hydro Pump
move 2: Ice Beam
move 3: Grass Knot
move 4: Agility
item: Life Orb
nature: Modest
evs: 24 HP / 252 SpA / 232 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>With its amazing resistance to most priority moves, including a quad resist to both Bullet Punch and Ice Shard, a set that takes advantage of Empoleon's potential as a speed-boosting sweeper without putting the penguin in a near-death situation or relying on a move with 8 PP and shaky accuracy for the majority of its kills seems quite logical. In contrast to the Substitute + Torrent set, this Empoleon takes full advantage of the perfect type coverage granted by running Grass Knot and Ice Beam on the same set. Life Orb goes a long way toward making up the difference in raw damage output, while simultaneously lowering Empoleon's HP into Torrent range.</p>

<p>The choice between Surf and Hydro Pump is an age-old one of reliability vs power. Surf will never miss, but a Life Orb Hydro Pump will OHKO 404 HP/236 Sp. Def Tyranitar 66% of the time and 320 HP/216 Sp. Def Magnezone 40% of the time if they switch into Stealth Rock. In addition, if you can manage to activate Torrent, Hydro Pump will absolutely annihilate anything that does not outright resist it and is not named Blissey or Snorlax. Grass Knot takes care of Water-types, and Ice Beam deals with Salamence, Celebi, and Dragonite, the latter two of which stand a good chance of defeating Substitute + Petaya Berry Empoleon if it misses with Hydro Pump or rolls unfavorable damage. Using Hidden Power Electric over Grass Knot is worth a mention if you fear being killed by Gyarados or walled by Tentacruel, but be warned that it will leave you unable to OHKO Swampert (who can OHKO back with Earthquake), and will deal significantly less damage to Suicune as well.</p>

<p>The EVs given put Empoleon at 428 Speed after one Agility, which is enough to beat any neutral-nature base 90 or positive-nature base 80 Pokemon holding a Choice Scarf, and of course, Timid Choice Scarf Heatran. Since even an offensively-EVed Empoleon possesses useful resistances and some general bulk, Expert Belt or Mystic Water may be used instead of Life Orb if you do not wish to compromise its defenses to the tune of 10% of Empoleon's HP every time it attacks. The former will give all three attacks a decent boost if they hit for super-effective, while the latter boosts Empoleon's primary sweeping move against foes that are only hit neutral. It should be noted that some sort of boosting item is required for a guaranteed OHKO on 4/0 Heatran with Surf.</p>

 

[Caelum]

You forgot the p tags (<p> </p>) they are suppose to surround your sentences. Link to the analysis as well in the OP. Anyway.

I suppose it would get messy to run a 3rd attack alongside Substitutes and the LO alongside Petaya. This set is preferred if you opt for Surf on the normal Petaya Empoleon but with Stealth Rock in play it appears (after doing some calcs) that a resisted Petaya Torrent boosted Hydro Pump nets the same 2HKOs / OHKOs as does a super-effective Life Orb Ice Beam does when Stealth Rock is in play. Can you point to anything in particular where this set is more successful (in terms of OHKOs / 2HKOs) then the standard agility sweeper? If so, I'd incluce those in your analysis. I'm sure the greater coverage is beneficial but its helpful to know if this does anything in particular.

Also, is maximum Speed necessary? Nothing sits in that bracket of 438 Speed except like Adamant Scarf E-Vire ? I'd bump the Speed down to 214 to outrun neutral scarf 90s and and + Speed Scarf 80s after an Agility.

 

[Syberia]

a resisted Petaya Torrent boosted Hydro Pump nets the same 2HKOs / OHKOs as does a super-effective Life Orb Ice Beam does when Stealth Rock is in play.

It may. But having both moves means you don't have to almost kill yourself to get results, which is the problem I've been having with the Sub/Petaya Empoleon. And not having to rely on a shaky-at-best 80% accurate Hydro Pump.

 

[Caelum]

I think you misunderstood what I meant, I didn't intend that as a criticism. I personally think Hydro Pump is garbage on most things and early / mid game (if you opt for Agility Petaya) you really need the higher base power to make up for the resisted hit. Here you can viably run Surf and still accomplish similar tasks, I was more just asking if someone did run Hydro Pump on the Petaya set is there something that you know of because that it doesn't 2HKO / OHKO which this does because that would be a good selling point.


Just pointing out how much I hate low accuracy moves =(

btw, any thoughts on the Speed I suggested ^.

 

[Syberia]

Hydro Pump does 53-63% based on my calculations to max/min Celebi. If Celebi recovers until Hydro Pump runs out of PP or misses, Empoleon is basically screwed. Also, imagine the scenario where you need to kill, say, Celebi and Salamence to end a match. Relying on Hydro Pump is pretty much the same as flipping a coin; Ice Beam is just too valuable a move to have in most situations.

When it works, though, I'm not calling Hydro Pump + Grass Knot Petaya Empoleon a bad set. I use it, but the accuracy has been letting me down to the point where I thought I might go with a different approach.

 

[Imran]

No, surely you would Ice Beam Celebi instead. Basically he wants you to provide examples of POkemon who will be OHKOd by a Torrent Petaya Hydro Pump, and NOT by a torrent boosted Petaya Surf, as to decide whether there is any real point in running Hydro Pump, which can be a liability due to it's accuracy.

 

[Syberia]

Celebi will rarely be 2HKOed by Surf (42-49%), but will by Hydro Pump. Salamence will not be OHKOed (with SR) by Surf (61-72%), but will be by Hydro Pump (78-92%). Dragonite has a very good change to survive even Hydro Pump after Stealth Rock damage.

Remember, all these calculations require SubPetaya Empoleon to be under 25% health, meaning if it doesn't have a Substitute up (most likely broken on the turn it used Agility, if the opponent is smart), a miss or a failure to KO means a dead penguin.

And if Petaya runs Surf + Ice Beam, it's stopped cold by Suicune, Vaporeon, and even the odd Milotic.

 

[RaikouLover]

I don't doubt that this works, but why would you use this over SubPetaya Empoleon? Scizor and priority moves won't kill at 25%, or even 18% since Stealth Rock is usually up. Surf / Ice Beam / Substiute / Agility covers all that you need to cover. This set will still struggle against Vaporeon, and will still have problems against Gyarados. Additionally, it can't beat Blissey or Snorlax, where as the Substitute version can (with Toxic Spikes you beat both pretty regularly). Surf / Ice Beam is the best combo in my opinion... since its easy to lure out and destroy other water pokemon (cough Life Orb Explosion Heatran anyone?).

Also, its possible to use SubPetaya Empoleon without Substitute believe it or not. Which STILL outclasses this set. Empoleon can survive quite a few things to put it into Petaya range like unboosted Thunderbolts, Swampert and Gliscor Earthquakes, etc. That varient is riskier, but still works and I used it before using Substitute, as Surf, Ice Beam, and Grass Knot with a Torrent and Petaya Boost is gg.

 

[Caelum]

Hydro Pump does 53-63% based on my calculations to max/min Celebi. If Celebi recovers until Hydro Pump runs out of PP or misses, Empoleon is basically screwed. Also, imagine the scenario where you need to kill, say, Celebi and Salamence to end a match. Relying on Hydro Pump is pretty much the same as flipping a coin; Ice Beam is just too valuable a move to have in most situations.

That's exactly what I meant to include in the analysis lol. The current analysis suggest Hydro Pump + Grass Knot and given the low PP of HP and shaky accuracy like you said celebi could theoretically stall you out. The analysis needs to play more on the strength that HP's accuracy can screw you over at times and so by having further attacks to complement your water STAB you don't have to rely on something with shaky accuracy. I'd probably just use the example you gave me with Celebi, that illustrates the point well enough.

@raikoulover: I'd probably consider using it tbh.

 

[RaikouLover]

When the analysis came out for this set, I emphasized to Chris is Me that Surf / Ice Beam or Grass Knot should be the set, no questions asked. I don't know why you would ever consider Hydro Pump on a set that is so stupidly easy to sweep with.

 

[Syberia]

Added. And I am in the process of figuring out how many EVs I need to hit 214 speed. I'll edit that in as soon as I figure out the spread :P

When the analysis came out for this set, I emphasized to Chris is Me that Surf / Ice Beam or Grass Knot should be the set, no questions asked. I don't know why you would ever consider Hydro Pump on a set that is so stupidly easy to sweep with.

With Surf + Grass Knot, you can't kill Celebi (just kills you with Grass Knot because you're at <25%, if you're hoping to do any damage at all), Dragonite (again, kills you), or Salamence (sets up a DD in your face, outspeeds you, and kills maybe more than one thing). With Surf + Ice Beam, you can't kill Vaporeon and Suicune. Hydro Pump is basically there to "make up the difference" of not having Ice Beam, and "try to cover" those pokemon that it would otherwise kill.

EDIT: Fixed speed.

RaikouLover: If no one is opposed, I will add Petaya Berry as an option. That seems quite viable.

Would you mind throwing out a few things that this Empoleon can reasonably survive, though? Swampert's EQ from 256 attack has a 2 in 3 chance of killing you with SR in play. You can live Gengar's Thunderbolt comfortably, but if it decides to Focus Blast you, you're dead. Tyranitar and Metagross both OHKO you over 90% of the time with SR down.

 

[Venom]

<p>max Speed with a Modest nature puts Empoleon at 428 (428 what?) after one Agility, which is enough to outspeed any neutral-nature base 90 or positive-nature base 80 Pokemon holding a Choice Scarf, and of course, Timid Choice Scarf Heatran. Since even an offensively-EVed Empoleon possesses useful resistances and some general bulk, Expert Belt may be used instead of Life Orb if you do not wish to compromise its defenses to the tune of 10% of Empoleon's HP every time it attacks. Be warned, though, that your primary attack hits for only neutral damage against a lot of foes.</p>

 

[Syberia]

Fixed. That was pretty much left over, as this set no longer even runs max speed.

 

[Bourbon]

I do believe that Wiseglasses or even Mystic Water would be better secondary item choices than Expert Belt. As you mentioned, your primary sweeping move, Hydro Pump gets a lot of neutrality, but not too many Super Effective hits. Mystic Water would give your Water attacks a 20% boost all the time, while Wiseglasses would give a 10% boost to all attacks. Just something to consider.

 

[Syberia]

You know what, you're absolutely right. Maybe not so much Wise Glasses, but I added Mystic Water and removed Expert Belt.

 

[Venom]

<p>The EVs given put Empoleon at 428 Speed after one Agility, which is enough to beat any neutral-nature base 90 or positive-nature base 80 Pokemon holding a Choice Scarf, and of course, Timid Choice Scarf Heatran.

really, all words that spell out "speed" are spelled out "Speed", with a capital S.

 

[Syberia]

I'd actually like more input on Wiseglasses as a viable item. Life Orb is obviously the main choice for this set, and I can see the use of Mystic Water, but I just don't know if a 1.1 boost is worth using. I guess it's better than nothing, but still.

 

[Venom]

I would probably too back the use of Wise Glasses on the set, I mean Mystic Water is an option, but I think something like Empoleon should have an item that benefits all attacks, not just one.

 

[Syberia]

Alright, added Wise Glasses. Without some sort of boosting item, Surf fails to OHKO 4/0 Heatran, so it really is better than nothing.

 

[User 12783]

http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/empoleon

[SET]
name: Agility Sweeper, Three Attacks
move 1: Surf / Hydro Pump
move 2: Ice Beam
move 3: Grass Knot
move 4: Agility
item: Life Orb
nature: Modest
evs: 24 HP / 252 SpA / 232 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>With its amazing resistance to most priority moves, including a quad resist to both Bullet Punch and Ice Shard, a set that takes advantage of Empoleon's potential as a speed-boosting sweeper without putting the penguin in a near-death situation or relying on a move with 8 PP and shaky accuracy for the majority of its kills seems quite logical (omitted "as well" as it isn't need). In contrast to the Substitute + Torrent set, this Empoleon takes full advantage of the perfect type coverage granted by running Grass Knot and Ice Beam on the same set. Life Orb goes a long way toward making up the difference in raw damage output, while simultaneously lowering Empoleon's HP to eventually Torrent range.</p>

<p>The choice between Surf and Hydro Pump is an age-old one of reliability vs power. Surf will never miss, but a Life Orb Hydro Pump will OHKO 404 HP/236 Sp. Def Tyranitar 66% of the time and 320 HP/216 Sp. Def Magnezone 40% of the time if they switch into Stealth Rock. In addition, if you can manage to activate Torrent, Hydro Pump will absolutely annihilate anything that does not outright resist it and is not named Blissey or Snorlax. Grass Knot takes care of Water-types, and Ice Beam deals with Salamence, Celebi, and Dragonite, the latter two of which stand a good chance of defeating Substitute + Petaya Berry Empoleon if it misses with Hydro Pump or rolls unfavorable damage.</p>

<p>The EVs given put Empoleon at 428 Speed after one Agility, which is enough to beat any neutral-nature base 90 or positive-nature base 80 Pokemon holding a Choice Scarf, and of course, Timid Choice Scarf Heatran. Since even an offensively-EVed Empoleon possesses useful resistances and some general bulk, Mystic Water may be used instead of Life Orb if you do not wish to compromise its defenses to the tune of 10% of Empoleon's HP every time it attacks. This will give your primary STAB attack a boost that's almost equivalent to that of Life Orb, especially when you consider how many things Water-type attacks hit for neutral damage.</p>

 

[Colonel M]

Expert... Belt?

Well anyway, what I like about this set is the presence of three attacks. While the SubPetaya Empoleon is by no means horrible, being able to smash Water-types as well as everything else is something that I find noteworthy. With this in mind, I feel that something like this should be added. For item options: Expert Belt or Life Orb. Wise Glasses makes an okay "SET COMMENTS" option but its practically useless to me (only 10% boost). Cool set. Makes me want to try Empoleon again on my Rhyperior team (curse you Blissey). And finally I want to pose this as a question: Hidden Power Electric? Granted, it may not be the greatest option on the set but I can see it doing more damage to Tentacruel and Gyarados. MAYBE worth a mention? The only thing that worries me is sort of overlapping coverage somewhat, but maybe a single sentence about it is fine enough.

 

[Syberia]

I had Expert Belt listed, but others seemed to think it was useless.

HP Electric OHKOs Gyarados, but leaves you unable to beat Swampert even with Hydro Pump, while EQ will OHKO you. And doesn't hit Suicune as hard. If you fear Gyarados more than the other two, though, it's viable. Added. IMO, it's more of a set comments type thing and not worthy of a slash.

 

[Colonel M]

Well I didn't think it was noteworthy of a slash to begin with. And I was leaning toward Tentacruel more than Gyarados. >_>

 

[Syberia]

Tentacruel can't do much back, though, Gyarados can EQ you into oblivion.

EDIT: Meh, it's a likely 3HKO on Tentacruel, so I guess that's worth a mention.

 

[cim]

When the analysis came out for this set, I emphasized to Chris is Me that Surf / Ice Beam or Grass Knot should be the set, no questions asked. I don't know why you would ever consider Hydro Pump on a set that is so stupidly easy to sweep with.

Yeah, uh, Hydro Pump sucks and that's being fixed in the very minor Platinum update.

Anyhow. This set probably isn't necessary because its justification is based on the idea that Empoleon relies on Hydro Pump to win, which now (and actually before, I wasn't the one who drafted the absolute final version) isn't true. I really wish Syberia tried SubPetaya with Surf first :/

While it does "work" in a sense, it's not really that useful in battle, or hasn't been for me. Blissey pops up and walls it silly, or Scizor doesn't get OHKOed and beats you with Superpower, or whatever. The counterargument "But it's late game and these threats should be gone" then leads to scoring another point in SubPetaya's favor, as this set needs less Pokémon "gone" and can work with something as simple as 2 layers of Toxic Spikes as its sole support, stalling out the Blissey that comes in with Subs and Surfs or the Vaporeon that can't break its Subs. This set, counterinutitively, requires more support to start a late game sweep going, and thus is a little worse.

If you're going to keep it, I'd recommend an item that isn't Life Orb. That way, you can play it as a Choice Specs attacker to fool some less skilled players and wear Pokémon down on switch-ins (Though Blissey will just Recover health), then come back in the end game, Agility, and sweep.